Early Copper Advice
EvanCrook1
Posts: 66 ✭✭
Hi yall,
I will be 18 soon. I am a senior at my high school and I have started coin collecting a few years ago, and started with the simple Whitman "Washington state quarter" folders, and have since expanded on what I am interested in. I have a flea market thats about an hour away and used to ask my mom to drive me there as quite a few guys I know sell their coins there. Thats when I really started getting into the collecting as I picked up a bunch of Morgans and buffalo nickles. After lots of reading on this forum and narrowing down to the coins I like, I realized I have been hit by the Copper bug. Bought my first large cent last year and continued on from there. After more reading and researching on the different ways of collecting early coppers I have narrowed my collection to be specific to all copper coins (with some exceptions, I like VAM morgans as well).
I know there are quite a few Copper collectors out there on this forum, so I wanted to get yalls advice on this new type of collecting. Heres what I have learned since the start of my Early copper collecting:
There are so many different avenues of collecting early coppers. I began on ebay and bought a RB coronet large cent and wanted to build a date set with em. Then after some researching I wanted to build a variety set of Newcomb #s of these cents. Then I saw that there were different attributions for the different types and years of large cents, such as the Sheldon #s for earlier date ones. This really got me into the early copper bug as I wanted to be able to identify all of these different attributions for these coins. Then I realized I needed quite a bit more cash than the tiny paychecks I have now.
I would like to join the EAC. I have seen on this forum that pretty much everyone that is hit by the Copper Bug is in this club and the members provide really valuable information about this type of collecting such as their grading style. I have read that there's a guy named Bob Grellman that is very good at attributing coppers and identifying the net grade. I would definitely want to have him look at a few of mine so I can get an idea of the NET grade my coins are. Would love to learn about that as well and try to apply it to all of my large and half cents. Plus Most members in the EAC buy and sell their coppers raw or slabbed which is appealing to me as 1) its expensive especially for a large number of coins and 2) I was worried about moisture being trapped in there affecting my Red or Red-Brown cents.
Early Copper care is quite different than the usual storage the rest of my coins are in. I have some intercept shield boxes with the Non-PVC 2x2s that have my silver coins as well as those little bags that get rid of the moisture, but for copper coins I have read that some people brush em with a fine camel brush and some type of oil to care for them, as well as place em in little cotton pouches. I have started to take my large and half cents out of the mylar flips (carefully) and move em there as I am concerned about a couple RED-Brown cents toning or changing color in there.
To all the copper guys out there, do yall have any advice for my copper collecting? Also where would be a good resource on NET Grading by EAC standards?
Here is my 1797 S-120b. I know that the pictures arnt the best on this phone but what do yall thing about its net grade?
Comments
The pics aren’t great but a decent looking coin…the rim is clearly modified/damaged tho…
I hope you keep pursuing better coins in this amazing hobby!
My advice would be to have a long term plan around the "look" and the grade level for your collection as it becomes more and more complete. And by all means - take your time. A collection such as Large Cents acquires it's own personality over time. And enjoy the ride!
I knew it would happen.
Early copper is very interesting, and a major segment of the hobby. Good luck, Cheers, RickO
The cleaning bothers me more than the rim.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regarding the above portion of your original post - the "RB" designation is reserved for mint state (MS60 and higher grade) examples of copper coins. Have you checked to see what it would cost to build a date set of "RB" Coronet Large Cents?
If you're not extremely knowledgeable in the area, collecting copper can be treacherous, especially if you're buying ungraded coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's a Gripped Edge, a well known and popular variety Sheldon variety - not PMD....
Thank you. I didn't see a problem with the rim and should have indicated that in my post, when emphasizing the cleaning.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
**To all the copper guys out there, do yall have any advice for my copper collecting? **
I have my 35+ years of experience that I can share over time via PM, I'm not going to pretend to offer "advice", as what you're primarily getting is opinions, some offered up by folks who's primary experience is looking at other people's coins.....
I will say I like your enthusiasm and approach. You're way ahead of many in this regard, including myself.
I will offer up not to get too hung up on EAC grading. These fellows (and I'm talking the majors) often disagree among themselves, and some are looser and some are tighter. It's the pricing that's most important. Just because a tough EAC grader evaluates a commercial AU as a choice VF, you can bet he isn't pricing it as VF with any current price guides. This was more relevant back when Copper Quotes by Robinson was being issued regularly, and before TPGs became more accepted.
From Mark - If you're not extremely knowledgeable in the area, collecting copper can be treacherous, especially if you're buying ungraded coins.
I agree. Even TPG coins may have issues, though generally major problems and alterations are weeded out.
Examine, study, and compare LOTS of coins. This is so much easier now, with the internet and its endless resources.
Don't buy problem coins. When you buy a problem coin you make someone else's problem your problem.
Unless you are wealthy you would be best advised to stay away from early copper ... it is very expensive. Try looking for a more affordable area of collecting such as foreign or medals.
Beware of flea markets unless you are an expert in counterfeit detection. They are a typical entry point for counterfeit material.
@EvanCrook1 Please accept my apologies in regards to the rim comment!
Clearly i misspoke, in this hobby you learn something new everyday…
Lots to digest here but I understand the fascination with Early Copper. I got the copper bug as a kid but couldn't afford to indulge it until I was well on my way to adulthood! And certain early copper will always be elusive to me because it's beyond my reach financially... or, at least what I'm comfortable spending on a hobby.
There are those that will tell you not to buy "problem coins" but most early copper (1793 -1814) is likely going to have something wrong with it unless you're spending a bunch of money... and even then, there could be issues. Early Copper is an area where it's a constant balancing act between affordability and "problems". My 1794 LC is in a straight-graded holder, but there are planchet flaws and a tiny spot of corrosion on the reverse...
I still collect early copper, but I've settled on the Middle and Late dates since finding nicer pieces at more affordable prices is and easier "lift"...
Best of Luck, and keep on collecting!
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Congratulations and welcome to the forum and to the Early Cent hobby. It is great. I have been collecting coins for 60 years but only started 2 years ago with the early cents. Please keep in mind at all times that you can only measure your depth of quality collections by the depth of your wallet. To get the truly rare Early Cents you may have to accept coins with damage or cleaning in order to fill that spot, especially if you go after Sheldon's or Cohen's complete attribution collection. The rarity levels of some of the attributions make the average value coins extremely expensive. Get quality books for what you are attempting. Utilize all the free media online as they usually have quality color photos.
If interested, pm me and I will give you some additional places for info, especially if you go after the half cents. Best of luck regardless of your path. But know this, if you truly step into the Early Cent collecting world, get ready for so much fun.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I see some other posters seem to be OK with buying problem coins. If you do so you will learn of your mistake when it comes time to sell. The problems give the buyer a great deal of leverage to get your price down ... way down.
I've never understood this. Problem coins are bought at a discount, and they sell for a discount. "Round trip" there shouldn't be any difference, as long as you buy semi-wisely, just sell on the same place you bought it (typically eBay) and let the bidding run up just the same as when you were the bidder. What's the problem?
Buy a copy of the book "Grading Guide for Early American Copper Coins" published by the EAC. Therein you will learn the guidelines for EAC net grading as well as other valuable information in the area.
There are other good books that deal with variety identification within each type, but the EAC book should be your primary reference for grading.
I just checked google, amazon, wizard, several book stores and found only one available on ebay used. Took me months to find one last year.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
If everyone that collected coins were only buying for resale then the hobby would have died long ago. You buy what you can enjoy and can afford, that does not mean you can only be a modern pocket change collector. Let's be honest to new collectors, if you wish to get into the 18th and 19th century coin collecting, do not expect to complete very many collections without large amounts of disposable income, even in lower grades. I'm not talking about type collecting, but series collecting. Everyone can't afford 10k coins as much as many would love to have just one. I cannot imagine a greater feeling as a collector than to fill an album or to obtain that so rare a coin to fill the empty spot, condition being secondary, as long as date is visible and the coin identifiable. As we all have opinions, this is mine. Many details coins are well struck and quite attractive.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
FWIW... yes, I've purchased a few "problem" pieces, but not all "problems" are the same... here are a few from my collection:
1823/2 Large Cent: These can readily be found in lower grades, likely with "issues" (corrosion, rim hits, etc) , for as little as $50 on ebay. However, when you jump up into the VF range, this issue becomes much more difficult (into the $1k price range or better). Here's one that I grade a VF20 (maybe 25) but was discounted due the the obverse hit behind Ms. Liberty's head, and a few other contact marks that aren't as noticeable with coin "in hand". I paid closer to F12/15 money and I can live with the hits... because that means I can go out and buy other coins...
1831 (R4)... I bought this one on a whim ($30 from an EAC dealer) because I needed the date at the time, and this one came with a cool Grellman card for attribution. I'll likely upgrade at some point since it's not a difficult date, but it was also my first "rare" coin. The rim tics are noted on the attribution card:
1838 Lastly, this is the Coronet Head Cent from my Type Collection. It's about as clean an AU50 as I could have wanted (by my grading standards) but the attribution card from the EAC dealer I bought it from graded it as XF40.
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Bob Grellman is like a walking encyclopedia. He can glace at a middle or late date large cent and tell you the Newcomb number in nothing flat. I can't come close to doing that.
If you store your copper coins under a constant temperature environment, you should have no problems. I have owned copper coins for decades and have never had them go bad because of the environment. I now live in Florida, which is very humid, but I store my coins in climate controlled areas. Again, I've had no problems.
The times I have had them go bad was when someone dipped them to enhance the red color. That was due to chemistry, not the environment. That's why I stay away from red copper for the most part, and only buy R&B coins in old (more than 10 years old) certification holders.
I would be very carful with the coin brushes. Some early copper collectors swear by them, but they can hairline your coins. I know what Dr. Sheldon wrote about the "giant tooth brushes," but not everything he wrote is true.
I would join EAC and maybe try to communicate with some of the members. If they know that you are a young collector, some of them will be ready to encourage you.
As for my background, I am primarily a type collector of U.S. coins. I belong to EAC and have been a member for well over 30 years, but it's more for the history aspects. I have not been a die variety collector for many years, and when I was, I collected half cents by Cohen number. I have a some copper that you would love, like a Chain Cent, a Wreath Cent and a very nice Pole to Cap Cent, all as type coins, BUT I've been at this for 60+ years and that's why I have so much.
I know how tough it is when you are young and see what the "old guys" have. If you are dedicated, you might get there too.
I don't even think about set completion personally. I know very well I will probably never have a complete set of Seated Quarters, between the three CC stoppers and the neverending slew of key dates that virtually never come nice. They are one of my favorite series nonetheless.
"You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."
But I don't want yet another EAC fanatic bidding against me!
I'm mostly kidding
I have collected quite a few different series of coins including lots of silver and the early copper has been by far the most enjoyable out of every series I've started, to the point where I hardly ever consider building my other sets because I'd rather spend the time/money on my Large cent collection.
The thing I love about early copper (especially lower grade) is that every piece is unique (In my opinion) you can look at 50 Washington quarters in VG-F and they will all look the same but there will be a huge variance in the appearance of the same number of copper in similar grades, THAT is what makes it so fun for me, no 2 pieces are exactly the same, they may be similar but they are all unique!!
I don't know that I have any advice for you other than general guidelines, collect what appeals to you, don't get too focused on finding certain coins in certain grades as some are almost nonexistent, don't be afraid to make a few mistakes early on (because you almost certainly will) and most of all, have fun!
And whatever you do, if at all possible, don't buy key dates raw...
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Collecting old coppers is all about gaining knowledge. I collect Late Date Large cents. Nothing pleases me more than buying a rare Newcomb variety in a straight graded PCGS holder that lacks the variety attribution. I use Bob Grellman's book as first resource but also have auction catalogues from Naftzger, Frankenfield, Twin Leaf and others. These truly let me know what these top shelf collectors had. Check the PCGS population report for varieties as well. The 1845 PCGS MS62 I just purchased off ebay is by my attribution skills an N-15. That would make it the 3rd finest graded at PCGS...we shall see when I send it in for regrade and attribution at PCGS. Take your time and look at 100's of coins to test your grading and attribution skills. Most of all have fun!
Gosh OP, you’ve chosen a deep hole to explore and one that can be very expensive. My suggestion is to break down the journey into segments. For example, collecting braided hair cents by date and not try to do variety at the same time. Then later you might either expand outward for variety or take a similar segmentation approach with a different early copper type.
I’d also look for a dealer mentor. Have you visited Shawn Yancey’s website? Attending an EAC convention (suggested earlier) would be wise, but at minimum an EAC membership will be worth it. Would be a nice Xmas gift to receive!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
This post excites me very much.
I like the idea of breaking it down to segments, especially cause it gets costly with buying a lot of better coins. I am looking forward to attending an EAC convention and hope to talk to different dealers about it
I have tried attributing a few later date cents, and as a beginner in that I find it really challenging. The fact that Grellman can do it quickly is amazing. I am planning on sending a few coppers to be attributed by him.
I do live in Florida as well, and I’m planning on moving all of my coppers to cotton lined envelopes to keep them protected from humidity and hairlines. My question for you is what would you use to properly care for the coins? I Heard that CARE might do the trick but I have never used it before. Most of my large cents are well circulated but a couple I would like to make sure they are well protected from any sort of impurities or scratches.
You need to be carful concerning cloth lined envelops. I got so inserts many years ago that toned coins. The main use for these is that it is supposed limit envelope friction, not absorb humidity. The best you can do is store your coins in a climate controlled environment. Avoid rapid changes from cool to hot and humid.
I have never used CARE or any of those products, CARE is collectors' item now. It's hard to get. The best thing I have seen it do is make copper more attractive for photographing and perhaps provide some protection when applied before a copper coin is slabbed. **Some EAC people may want to chime in on this. ** I have not worked with CARE or Blue Ribbon.
The one thing I forgot to mention in my first post was that you really have to be aware of counterfeits. There have been large numbers of them, and a few have even fooled the third party graders. Jack D. Young has done some great work on this topic and continues to find these bad items. Don't feel safe because you are buying cheap coins. The Chinese are making those too.
Here's a link to get you started. I've been a collector for over 60 years, and I'm still "babe in arms" when it comes to this stuff. I can spot many, but not all.
https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/its-a-jungle-out-there-later-date-large-cent-counterfeits/
Here is an example of a "medium quality" counterfeit large cent. Some are better made that this.
Here is counterfeit 1840 large cent.
Here is an example of the real thing.
You will know that the position and style of the date and the bust of Ms. Liberty are all wrong on the counterfeit, but if you don't know this, you could be fooled. The counterfeit was made from a later date with the "1840" dropped in.
Here's one of the later dates. This is genuine.
Re: Blue Ribbon, I’ve been using the original stuff for over 30 years. Care was already long off the market by 1990. The newer Care and BR are relatively worthless. One I tried was essentially light machine oil. Because of course they no longer use CFCs, for multiple reasons.
It’s great for removing haze, dirt, soft crud, etc. It won’t touch encrusted verdigris or environmental damage. Is it better than acetone? I think so.
For storage of raw coins, I like the Kointains, and then put them in a 2x2. The intercept shield holders work ok too.
I also live in FL and never had issues with large cents.
Where would be the best place to get those cloth envelopes? I have a few of those paper 2x2's and the cloths ones i saw look like they fit inside of the paper ones. I do think that will minimize hairlines and scratches, but I do see the concern about humidity. As of right now, they are all stored in mylar flips and kept in a climate controlled area with those bags that absorb moisture.
Also, I havent even thought about the number of counterfeits out there. Thanks for the link and pictures. I am gonna be more cautios on picking em up from either flea markets orn places like ebay
If you haven't found Tom Deck's website, here it is... lots of good links and I think he sells various types of cloth inserts.
https://largecents.net/
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Thank you for his website! He has quite a bit of useful info on there
@EvanCrook1
I can offer no advice on early copper. However, at the top of the US forum is a Resources thread (link below). Near the top of the first post and under '1c' there are some links to websites and online books (at NNP) with information on some of the early coppers.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1006619/resources-books-links-to-read-on-numismatic-series-errors-and-varieties
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Welcome. I am also collecting copper. I would say to definitely join EAC. If you only get to read all the PennyWise articles, you are still doing well. The EAC Grading guide is a great book with lots of pictures, and I recommend that. I collect half cents, so I cannot help you in collecting LC varieties.
Collecting RB coins can be very tricky. Building my late date half cents in RB was a goal of mine, but some dates (1849, 1850 and 1853) were not very feasible for me, so I had to make decisions on those coins. Likewise, I have seen a few coins that were clearly recolored (and even more in RB holders that have gone brown). As others have said, know what it will cost to buy the set in RB (if that is the goal), then add 10%. Chances are, your purchases will exceed your estimates. Good luck and have fun!
Neo
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.