Apparently CCC has had many complaints and has been accused of many shady business dealings. Whatever. They have many great coins. But beware! If you make them mad, theyll block you. First time i ever returned an item and it will also be the last.
Good for you; you complied with the refund procedure and are entitled to a full refund.
Since CCC has 100% feedback, with 0 negs in their then of thousands of sales, they MUST have had a good return policy over the years.
Buyers like the OP are the reason I no longer give free shipping, since I want potential buyers to have a little more skin in the game than the return postage fee. I would automatically block the OP, since he is not the kind of buyer I with which I choose to deal. Nothing personal, just good business.
It makes no difference whether it is "free shipping" or "cost + shipping". If they file a SNAD with eBay, they will be refunded both as well as making you pay the return shipping.
In fact, arguably, charging them shipping actually encourages SNAD and chargebacks rather than straight returns. A SNAD basically is a straight return, but a charge back could take 3 months or more to resolve.
I read most of this thread and I'm surprised how SNAD returns are mentioned infrequently. eBay doesn't scrutinize the buyer's gripe with the coin, they always simply issue a refund and force the seller to pay for a shipping label. It doesn't matter what the seller's return policy or restocking policy is, buyer always has a way to get a full refund and free postage for the return with a SNAD.
Sellers would be better off to offer free postage and no-postage-charge refunds, because that's what the buyer will get with a SNAD return. It's a huge vulnerability to sellers, but that kind of security brings more buyers' eyes to the platform.
For the record, I've never done a SNAD return for coins, just once when a Chinese seller sent an adult size costume when I ordered a kids size for my son. I would normally just return it but the return address was in Chinese and it would have cost like $30 to return a $20 item. I SNADed it and wore an uncomfortably tight Black Panther costume that Halloween. I'm going to hell already so I figured what's one more sin.
Considering that various forum members have posted about instances in which SNAD claims were disallowed by eBay, it's incorrect to state " eBay doesn't scrutinize the buyer's gripe with the coin, they always simply issue a refund and force the seller to pay for a shipping label. It doesn't matter what the seller's return policy or restocking policy is, buyer always has a way to get a full refund and free postage for the return with a SNAD."
I can't remember ever reading about a successful SNAD challenge, but I've read a lot of woeful SNAD stories. All a buyer has to say is that it doesn't look the same as the pics, that the pics didn't show a nick or something. Doesn't that always work for the buyer? What can a seller do to win a SNAD challenge?
Apparently CCC has had many complaints and has been accused of many shady business dealings. Whatever. They have many great coins. But beware! If you make them mad, theyll block you. First time i ever returned an item and it will also be the last.
Good for you; you complied with the refund procedure and are entitled to a full refund.
Since CCC has 100% feedback, with 0 negs in their then of thousands of sales, they MUST have had a good return policy over the years.
Buyers like the OP are the reason I no longer give free shipping, since I want potential buyers to have a little more skin in the game than the return postage fee. I would automatically block the OP, since he is not the kind of buyer I with which I choose to deal. Nothing personal, just good business.
It makes no difference whether it is "free shipping" or "cost + shipping". If they file a SNAD with eBay, they will be refunded both as well as making you pay the return shipping.
In fact, arguably, charging them shipping actually encourages SNAD and chargebacks rather than straight returns. A SNAD basically is a straight return, but a charge back could take 3 months or more to resolve.
I read most of this thread and I'm surprised how SNAD returns are mentioned infrequently. eBay doesn't scrutinize the buyer's gripe with the coin, they always simply issue a refund and force the seller to pay for a shipping label. It doesn't matter what the seller's return policy or restocking policy is, buyer always has a way to get a full refund and free postage for the return with a SNAD.
Sellers would be better off to offer free postage and no-postage-charge refunds, because that's what the buyer will get with a SNAD return. It's a huge vulnerability to sellers, but that kind of security brings more buyers' eyes to the platform.
For the record, I've never done a SNAD return for coins, just once when a Chinese seller sent an adult size costume when I ordered a kids size for my son. I would normally just return it but the return address was in Chinese and it would have cost like $30 to return a $20 item. I SNADed it and wore an uncomfortably tight Black Panther costume that Halloween. I'm going to hell already so I figured what's one more sin.
Considering that various forum members have posted about instances in which SNAD claims were disallowed by eBay, it's incorrect to state " eBay doesn't scrutinize the buyer's gripe with the coin, they always simply issue a refund and force the seller to pay for a shipping label. It doesn't matter what the seller's return policy or restocking policy is, buyer always has a way to get a full refund and free postage for the return with a SNAD."
I can't remember ever reading about a successful SNAD challenge, but I've read a lot of woeful SNAD stories. All a buyer has to say is that it doesn't look the same as the pics, that the pics didn't show a nick or something. Doesn't that always work for the buyer? What can a seller do to win a SNAD challenge?
It appears that buyers are successful with their SNAD challenges most of the time, but based on what I've seen posted here, there are exceptions. And if/when someone posts that something "always" happens or "never" happens, sometimes they will be wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Apparently CCC has had many complaints and has been accused of many shady business dealings. Whatever. They have many great coins. But beware! If you make them mad, theyll block you. First time i ever returned an item and it will also be the last.
Good for you; you complied with the refund procedure and are entitled to a full refund.
Since CCC has 100% feedback, with 0 negs in their then of thousands of sales, they MUST have had a good return policy over the years.
Buyers like the OP are the reason I no longer give free shipping, since I want potential buyers to have a little more skin in the game than the return postage fee. I would automatically block the OP, since he is not the kind of buyer I with which I choose to deal. Nothing personal, just good business.
It makes no difference whether it is "free shipping" or "cost + shipping". If they file a SNAD with eBay, they will be refunded both as well as making you pay the return shipping.
In fact, arguably, charging them shipping actually encourages SNAD and chargebacks rather than straight returns. A SNAD basically is a straight return, but a charge back could take 3 months or more to resolve.
I read most of this thread and I'm surprised how SNAD returns are mentioned infrequently. eBay doesn't scrutinize the buyer's gripe with the coin, they always simply issue a refund and force the seller to pay for a shipping label. In't matter what the seller's return policy or restocking policy is, buyer always has a way to get a full refund and free postage for the return with a SNAD."
I can't remember ever reading about a successful SNAD challenge, but I've read a lot of woeful SNAD stories. All a buyer has to say is that it doesn't look the same as the pics, that the pics didn't show a nick or something. Doesn't that always work for the buyer? What can a seller do to win a SNAD challenge?
There are times that SNAD challenges are successful. Remember, eBay would have history on the buyer that we don't. That may play into it. Sometimes the buyer is too dumb to shut up and there's an email negotiation leading into the SNAD. Sometimes the buyer makes claims that are demonstrably untrue. Sometimes, the buyer is well past the return window.
I've never had a SNAD challenge be successful. However, to be fair, I rarely challenge them. There are a couple people on here who have challenged them successfully. But it does appear to be a rare occurrence.
Everyone is Superman on the internet. But people who think they can refuse returns are kidding themselves. If a buyer files a SNAD, you can be forced to accept a return. If eBay rules against you, the buyer can still file a chargeback. And, in fact, if they paid with a CC through PayPal, they can file a PayPal claim and, if that fails, file a CC claim. So they get 3 bites of the apple. And all 3 of those entities will refund the FULL payment including separate shipping charges. About the only thing you can hope for is that one of those entities makes the buyer pay return shipping. eBay won't. The CC company might. However, as I mentioned earlier from a conversation with eBay, the CC company might not even force a return of the item.
FORTUNATELY, such abuse is relatively rare. That's one of the reasons I defend eBay. People latch on to an exceptional circumstance and make it sound like eBay is the Wild Wild West. In fact, 99.9% of transactions sail through without a problem. I have roughly 4 or 5 "problems" per year out of over 2000 transactions. But more than half of those are shipping problems not buyer abuse or scams. The other half are "returns", usually prompt and within my terms for free returns.
The actual incidence of buyer or seller scams is 1 in 10,000 or less. I've been on eBay for 25 years and done over 80,000 transactions worldwide. In all that time, I've had only one incidence that I felt might be a scam (alleged empty box delivery) and 2 or 3 cases of SNAD abuse including the kilogram coin I mentioned previously.
Now, there is absolutely a cost to the returns. However, my feeling is that I get more business by offering them than I would by trying to stop them. So, I believe that the returns pay for themselves. I do not, however, have any hard data to prove that. But listen to the folks around here. Most of them would not buy a coin that didn't come with return privileges in a sight unseen environment. Would you buy a "used" item without the possibility of return?
@jmlanzaf said:
Remember, eBay would have history on the buyer that we don't. That may play into it. Sometimes the buyer is too dumb to shut up and there's an email negotiation leading into the SNAD. Sometimes the buyer makes claims that are demonstrably untrue.
I mentioned it before but I had a buyer once who filed a SNAD claim even though it wasn't true and admitted as much in a message to me through eBay's message system. His message said that there was nothing wrong with the coin- he wanted to return it because he changed his mind- but he didn't want to pay the return shipping (I accept returns for any reason, with the buyer paying the return shipping cost) so he filed the claim as SNAD. I talked to eBay, they agreed that the buyer was in violation of their policies and they still required me to pay for return shipping.
@logger7 said:
I'd question the practice of publicly embarrassing a company which as far as I know is against the rules on this forum. Since ebay enforces full refunds I don't see why the buyer is not working through them. There are many raw coin sellers on ebay, one of the few places where sellers can do that on an auction or buy it now basis. Also the limit to listing raw coins is $2499 on ebay, over that the coins have to be certified.
I had one transaction with CCC several years ago. Was not happy with the coins I received. They cheerfully refunded my money even though the coins they sold me were a few rolls of "unsearched, original bank rolls" that I had opened and inspected. I gave them positive feedback because they were cool about refunding my money.
I argued that unsearched, original bank rolls of pennies from 1948 should have a few really nice ones from the '30's and possibly late '20's in the rolls. Even the '40's dated pieces had inordinate amount of wear, in my opinion. No mint luster on ANY of the many '40's dated pennies? Give me my money back, which is what they did. Sometimes one just needs to learn their lesson and move on.
Sounds like you didn’t just “move on.”
You fell for the oldest scam on eBay - “original, unsearched roll”
Instead of moving on, you requested a refund after opening the rolls and looking through all of the coins.
I don't think that requesting a refund after having inspected the rolls and later leaving positive feedback is inconsistent with "move on".
Short of refunding my money, a negative from me would likely have happened. The positive feedback I gave was for cheerfully refunding my money. It's not my problem what someone else might do or not do under the circumstances.
If you know the seller engaged in deceitful tactics, juiced pictures, other artifice, it is sometimes good to alert others, can even leave a "positive" and then say coin was not as pictured.
Spent 5 or 6 Grand with a dealer on half dozen or more coins. over a couple of years.
then returned one a $29 coin. he blocked me. "Penney wise pound foolish" as they say.
He lost a good customer. His business is struggling as he is trying to sell now lots of different things as his specialty crashed. I wonder why? I realized I did not need him either.
@dollarfan said:
Anyone ever sold them slabbed coins only to see them listed in the "coveted pristine" condition raw straight from original roll. Imagine that.
I wish you could filter those results out easily. Any time I search for a morgan those are the first things that come up. Rather annoying to be frank.
If you'd bought the coin from me and returned it for that reason, I would have happily refunded your money and promptly blocked you from bidding on any more of my auctions. Like others have said, I'm not running an approval service.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
I just got an angry email from a buyer objecting to my using registered mail for his $1600 gold coin. I apologized for trying to make sure he safely received his coin. Lol. He'll probably leave me negative feedback.
This is why on an item of this value level we send it insured Priority Mail. Gets there lots quicker and still fully insured. I'm betting his complaint was about how long it took to get there.
@krueger said:
Spent 5 or 6 Grand with a dealer on half dozen or more coins. over a couple of years.
then returned one a $29 coin. he blocked me. "Penney wise pound foolish" as they say.
He lost a good customer. His business is struggling as he is trying to sell now lots of different things as his specialty crashed. I wonder why? I realized I did not need him either.
i've unfortunately had one like this, wayyy back when i was fairly new. bought a group of coins from a fairly well known seller, at least in this part of the country and kept all the high-dollar stuff but really didn't like how a couple of the lower dollar items looked in-hand compared to the images. they made a stink about the return and i've never bought another thing from them. now had it been the high-dollar stuff getting returned i could KINDA understand but if you don't like to accept returns, do not offer them. i had great plans to keep buying from them and a little decency and consideration could have smoothed it over for me as i know since we talked via email and not phone or in-person, things can seem worse than they are.
i COULD have just kept buying but more carefully but there are a LOOOOOT of coin dealers in this country and while i do like long-term good standing relationships, there is always a breaking point based on where a person/entity is at in life at any given time.
i do think doing business in-person is 100x easier, more effective (for both parties for many reasons), faster, convenient, more lucrative etc compared to all other options for my experience, especially for the conversations that can take place especially if you catch the shop people in a lull of activity and you are a regular.
i think a lot of people entering this hobby and probably others are REALLY missing out on these shop, show, in-person meetings, etc in lieu of digital inter/transactions. imo
I just got an angry email from a buyer objecting to my using registered mail for his $1600 gold coin. I apologized for trying to make sure he safely received his coin. Lol. He'll probably leave me negative feedback.
This is why on an item of this value level we send it insured Priority Mail. Gets there lots quicker and still fully insured. I'm betting his complaint was about how long it took to get there.
Check your exemptions. If USPS calls your coin bullion, you have a grand total of $15 in insurance. From the DMM:
For currency or bullion, a maximum of $15.
Exception: For items sent by Registered Mail service, the Postal Service provides payment for the included insurance coverage, based on declared value, up to the maximum amount of $50,000
I just got an angry email from a buyer objecting to my using registered mail for his $1600 gold coin. I apologized for trying to make sure he safely received his coin. Lol. He'll probably leave me negative feedback.
This is why on an item of this value level we send it insured Priority Mail. Gets there lots quicker and still fully insured. I'm betting his complaint was about how long it took to get there.
Check your exemptions. If USPS calls your coin bullion, you have a grand total of $15 in insurance. From the DMM:
For currency or bullion, a maximum of $15.
Exception: For items sent by Registered Mail service, the Postal Service provides payment for the included insurance coverage, based on declared value, up to the maximum amount of $50,000
From the DMM section 609:
g. For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value
is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and
stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market
value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date.
m. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items
(defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to
forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00
"Currency" here refers to paper money. You are correct that bullion, i.e.,bars/rounds are only paid off if sent registered. If it is an actual numismatic coin however, i.e., something with an assigned face value that is a legal tender item in the issuing country, then it can be sent insured PM. Things like American Eagles, MLs, Rands are thus covered, as they are technically coins even though they contain precious metal. Otherwise by your logic no precious metal bearing coin of any kind can be sent PM insured except via Registered. Where am I wrong here?
I just got an angry email from a buyer objecting to my using registered mail for his $1600 gold coin. I apologized for trying to make sure he safely received his coin. Lol. He'll probably leave me negative feedback.
This is why on an item of this value level we send it insured Priority Mail. Gets there lots quicker and still fully insured. I'm betting his complaint was about how long it took to get there.
Check your exemptions. If USPS calls your coin bullion, you have a grand total of $15 in insurance. From the DMM:
For currency or bullion, a maximum of $15.
Exception: For items sent by Registered Mail service, the Postal Service provides payment for the included insurance coverage, based on declared value, up to the maximum amount of $50,000
From the DMM section 609:
g. For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value
is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and
stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market
value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date.
m. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items
(defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to
forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00
"Currency" here refers to paper money. You are correct that bullion, i.e.,bars/rounds are only paid off if sent registered. If it is an actual numismatic coin however, i.e., something with an assigned face value that is a legal tender item in the issuing country, then it can be sent insured PM. Things like American Eagles, MLs, Rands are thus covered, as they are technically coins even though they contain precious metal. Otherwise by your logic no precious metal bearing coin of any kind can be sent PM insured except via Registered. Where am I wrong here?
I know people who have had this issue. Someone on the forum wrote about it late last year. What you consider "technically coins" doesn't have to be what USPS does.
For example, ASE's have been exempt from NYS sales tax ($1000 or more) as bullion. By your criteria, they should be taxable in NYS because they are "coins". NYS defines bullion as anything made of precious metal which sells within X% of the bullion value. (X varies a bit by format and metal).
Fun fact: When the ASE premium went to $9 per coin, ASE's were suddenly NOT bullion in NYS and, therefore, subject to taxation!
At the very least, you run the risk of having an argument with USPS over the insurance value. Anything that is technically bullion (including ASEs, AGEs etc) would fall under the indemnity exemption.
I don't think your "legal tender" argument carries much weight. After all, the IRS allows for Eagles and K-rands to be in IRAs as bullion.
I don't think your "legal tender" argument carries much weight. After all, the IRS allows for Eagles and K-rands to be in IRAs as bullion.
So slabbed MS70 ASEs/AGEs/ etc. that are worth multiples of melt NUMISMATICALLY, aren't considered numismatic?
I think I'd win that argument. Especially when I can document their value in publications.
@telephoto1 said: I don't think your "legal tender" argument carries much weight. After all, the IRS allows for Eagles and K-rands to be in IRAs as bullion.
So slabbed MS70 ASEs/AGEs/ etc. that are worth multiples of melt NUMISMATICALLY, aren't considered numismatic?
I think I'd win that argument. Especially when I can document their value in publications.
That has nothing to do with legal tender status.
As I said, NY state uses the percentage of bullion value. I don't really know what the USPS uses. If you want, search for the thread where one of our brethren was awarded $15 by USPS. IIRC correctly, they eventually won on appeal. But you do need to be careful with insured priority because of the exemptions.
As I said, NY state uses the percentage of bullion value. I don't really know what the USPS uses. If you want, search for the thread where one of our brethren was awarded $15 by USPS. IIRC correctly, they eventually won on appeal. But you do need to be careful with insured priority because of the exemptions.
As I said, NY state uses the percentage of bullion value. I don't really know what the USPS uses. If you want, search for the thread where one of our brethren was awarded $15 by USPS. IIRC correctly, they eventually won on appeal. But you do need to be careful with insured priority because of the exemptions.
NYS defines bullion as anything made of precious metal which sells within X% of the bullion value.
This is an example of a much larger potential issue. Different states have differing criteria. So theoretically in NY if I am shipping a batch of, say, low end $5 Libs that aren't worth much more than melt, do they then magically become bullion, even if they are undoubtedly coins?
@krueger said:
Spent 5 or 6 Grand with a dealer on half dozen or more coins. over a couple of years.
then returned one a $29 coin. he blocked me. "Penney wise pound foolish" as they say.
He lost a good customer. His business is struggling as he is trying to sell now lots of different things as his specialty crashed. I wonder why? I realized I did not need him either.
I find that type of retaliation to be petty and vindictive. Imagine if the major retailers started blocking customers from doing business with them due to returns. It's part of business and frankly when I get a return I refine my business practices because in some ways the customer was right and I wasn't in some way. Or as my mother used to say "cutting off the nose despite the face."
@krueger said:
Spent 5 or 6 Grand with a dealer on half dozen or more coins. over a couple of years.
then returned one a $29 coin. he blocked me. "Penney wise pound foolish" as they say.
He lost a good customer. His business is struggling as he is trying to sell now lots of different things as his specialty crashed. I wonder why? I realized I did not need him either.
I find that type of retaliation to be petty and vindictive. Imagine if the major retailers started blocking customers from doing business with them due to returns. It's part of business and frankly when I get a return I refine my business practices because in some ways the customer was right and I wasn't in some way. Or as my mother used to say "cutting off the nose despite the face."
Actually many retailers are starting to track people who abuse the return policies and will block people for doing so. To your point though, without taking a few seconds to look and see how much business someone has done with you, blocking after a single return is as you say... 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.
On ebay its really easy... When someone orders from you it says in green under the order if they are a repeat buyer. I haven't needed to, but I'd bet you can find all orders by that buyer and see their purchases to determine if they are a profitable client or not.
@telephoto1 said: NYS defines bullion as anything made of precious metal which sells within X% of the bullion value.
This is an example of a much larger potential issue. Different states have differing criteria. So theoretically in NY if I am shipping a batch of, say, low end $5 Libs that aren't worth much more than melt, do they then magically become bullion, even if they are undoubtedly coins?
How each state distinguishes between PM items for the purpose of taxation is not applicable here.
What matters here is how the USPS distinguishes between PM items during a theoretical claims process (i.e., "bullion" versus "coins of numismatic value"). Unfortunately, the USPS does not clearly define the difference within the DMM. At least, I could not find it.
With respect to the hypothesis that legal tender coins are automatically considered "coins of numismatic value" by the USPS, please see this thread, which was referenced earlier by @jmlanzaf. In short, the coin that @Bodin had to argue with the USPS about was a 1924 St. Gaudens $20.
@telephoto1 said: NYS defines bullion as anything made of precious metal which sells within X% of the bullion value.
This is an example of a much larger potential issue. Different states have differing criteria. So theoretically in NY if I am shipping a batch of, say, low end $5 Libs that aren't worth much more than melt, do they then magically become bullion, even if they are undoubtedly coins?
How each state distinguishes between PM items for the purpose of taxation is not applicable here.
What matters here is how the USPS distinguishes between PM items during a theoretical claims process (i.e., "bullion" versus "coins of numismatic value"). Unfortunately, the USPS does not clearly define the difference within the DMM. At least, I could not find it.
With respect to the hypothesis that legal tender coins are automatically considered "coins of numismatic value" by the USPS, please see this thread, which was referenced earlier by @jmlanzaf. In short, the coin that @Bodin had to argue with the USPS about was a 1924 St. Gaudens $20.
You are correct on both points. State tax laws are irrelevant. Even Federal rules don't matter. And, to your point, the USPS does not provide a clear definition.
To my original post about the registered mail. If you have a $1500 or higher price, it costs more to ship it via priority insured than registered. Regardless of whether I ultimately prevail in my argument with USPS, why would I pay MORE in order to risk a months long fight with USPS? Registered mail is more secure and it is DEFINITELY insured. Yes, it's a little slower.
@logger7 said:
I'd question the practice of publicly embarrassing a company which as far as I know is against the rules on this forum. Since ebay enforces full refunds I don't see why the buyer is not working through them. There are many raw coin sellers on ebay, one of the few places where sellers can do that on an auction or buy it now basis. Also the limit to listing raw coins is $2499 on ebay, over that the coins have to be certified.
I had one transaction with CCC several years ago. Was not happy with the coins I received. They cheerfully refunded my money even though the coins they sold me were a few rolls of "unsearched, original bank rolls" that I had opened and inspected. I gave them positive feedback because they were cool about refunding my money.
I argued that unsearched, original bank rolls of pennies from 1948 should have a few really nice ones from the '30's and possibly late '20's in the rolls. Even the '40's dated pieces had inordinate amount of wear, in my opinion. No mint luster on ANY of the many '40's dated pennies? Give me my money back, which is what they did. Sometimes one just needs to learn their lesson and move on.
Sounds like you didn’t just “move on.”
You fell for the oldest scam on eBay - “original, unsearched roll”
Instead of moving on, you requested a refund after opening the rolls and looking through all of the coins.
I don't think that requesting a refund after having inspected the rolls and later leaving positive feedback is inconsistent with "move on".
It’s no different than buying a polished coin described as BU, sending it in for grading only to receive a harshly cleaned grade then requesting a refund.
The OP did not move on. They got duped and couldn’t handle the outcome.
I just had an individual on eBay that won on a 10 day bid request a cancellation. Did I want to ban the individual ? Yes. Punch the individual In the face? Yes. Grab the individual, throw the individual to the ground, and then give the individual knee blows to the ribcage? Yes. But I didn’t. I approved the cancellation. Why? Because there will always be somebody, somewhere that wants gods money!
Comments
I can't remember ever reading about a successful SNAD challenge, but I've read a lot of woeful SNAD stories. All a buyer has to say is that it doesn't look the same as the pics, that the pics didn't show a nick or something. Doesn't that always work for the buyer? What can a seller do to win a SNAD challenge?
It appears that buyers are successful with their SNAD challenges most of the time, but based on what I've seen posted here, there are exceptions. And if/when someone posts that something "always" happens or "never" happens, sometimes they will be wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are times that SNAD challenges are successful. Remember, eBay would have history on the buyer that we don't. That may play into it. Sometimes the buyer is too dumb to shut up and there's an email negotiation leading into the SNAD. Sometimes the buyer makes claims that are demonstrably untrue. Sometimes, the buyer is well past the return window.
I've never had a SNAD challenge be successful. However, to be fair, I rarely challenge them. There are a couple people on here who have challenged them successfully. But it does appear to be a rare occurrence.
Everyone is Superman on the internet. But people who think they can refuse returns are kidding themselves. If a buyer files a SNAD, you can be forced to accept a return. If eBay rules against you, the buyer can still file a chargeback. And, in fact, if they paid with a CC through PayPal, they can file a PayPal claim and, if that fails, file a CC claim. So they get 3 bites of the apple. And all 3 of those entities will refund the FULL payment including separate shipping charges. About the only thing you can hope for is that one of those entities makes the buyer pay return shipping. eBay won't. The CC company might. However, as I mentioned earlier from a conversation with eBay, the CC company might not even force a return of the item.
FORTUNATELY, such abuse is relatively rare. That's one of the reasons I defend eBay. People latch on to an exceptional circumstance and make it sound like eBay is the Wild Wild West. In fact, 99.9% of transactions sail through without a problem. I have roughly 4 or 5 "problems" per year out of over 2000 transactions. But more than half of those are shipping problems not buyer abuse or scams. The other half are "returns", usually prompt and within my terms for free returns.
The actual incidence of buyer or seller scams is 1 in 10,000 or less. I've been on eBay for 25 years and done over 80,000 transactions worldwide. In all that time, I've had only one incidence that I felt might be a scam (alleged empty box delivery) and 2 or 3 cases of SNAD abuse including the kilogram coin I mentioned previously.
Now, there is absolutely a cost to the returns. However, my feeling is that I get more business by offering them than I would by trying to stop them. So, I believe that the returns pay for themselves. I do not, however, have any hard data to prove that. But listen to the folks around here. Most of them would not buy a coin that didn't come with return privileges in a sight unseen environment. Would you buy a "used" item without the possibility of return?
I agree as I have many duplicates of various coins. I would rather just sell or trade a piece rather than push a return for the OP's reason.
I mentioned it before but I had a buyer once who filed a SNAD claim even though it wasn't true and admitted as much in a message to me through eBay's message system. His message said that there was nothing wrong with the coin- he wanted to return it because he changed his mind- but he didn't want to pay the return shipping (I accept returns for any reason, with the buyer paying the return shipping cost) so he filed the claim as SNAD. I talked to eBay, they agreed that the buyer was in violation of their policies and they still required me to pay for return shipping.
Not much you can do about it.
If you know the seller engaged in deceitful tactics, juiced pictures, other artifice, it is sometimes good to alert others, can even leave a "positive" and then say coin was not as pictured.
Anyone ever sold them slabbed coins only to see them listed in the "coveted pristine" condition raw straight from original roll. Imagine that.
Spent 5 or 6 Grand with a dealer on half dozen or more coins. over a couple of years.
then returned one a $29 coin. he blocked me. "Penney wise pound foolish" as they say.
He lost a good customer. His business is struggling as he is trying to sell now lots of different things as his specialty crashed. I wonder why? I realized I did not need him either.
I wish you could filter those results out easily. Any time I search for a morgan those are the first things that come up. Rather annoying to be frank.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
You can exclude sellers by using the advanced search feature.
If you'd bought the coin from me and returned it for that reason, I would have happily refunded your money and promptly blocked you from bidding on any more of my auctions. Like others have said, I'm not running an approval service.
This is why on an item of this value level we send it insured Priority Mail. Gets there lots quicker and still fully insured. I'm betting his complaint was about how long it took to get there.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
i've unfortunately had one like this, wayyy back when i was fairly new. bought a group of coins from a fairly well known seller, at least in this part of the country and kept all the high-dollar stuff but really didn't like how a couple of the lower dollar items looked in-hand compared to the images. they made a stink about the return and i've never bought another thing from them. now had it been the high-dollar stuff getting returned i could KINDA understand but if you don't like to accept returns, do not offer them. i had great plans to keep buying from them and a little decency and consideration could have smoothed it over for me as i know since we talked via email and not phone or in-person, things can seem worse than they are.
i COULD have just kept buying but more carefully but there are a LOOOOOT of coin dealers in this country and while i do like long-term good standing relationships, there is always a breaking point based on where a person/entity is at in life at any given time.
i do think doing business in-person is 100x easier, more effective (for both parties for many reasons), faster, convenient, more lucrative etc compared to all other options for my experience, especially for the conversations that can take place especially if you catch the shop people in a lull of activity and you are a regular.
i think a lot of people entering this hobby and probably others are REALLY missing out on these shop, show, in-person meetings, etc in lieu of digital inter/transactions. imo
Check your exemptions. If USPS calls your coin bullion, you have a grand total of $15 in insurance. From the DMM:
For currency or bullion, a maximum of $15.
Exception: For items sent by Registered Mail service, the Postal Service provides payment for the included insurance coverage, based on declared value, up to the maximum amount of $50,000
From the DMM section 609:
g. For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value
is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and
stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market
value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date.
m. Except for Registered Mail, the maximum indemnity for negotiable items
(defined as instruments that can be converted to cash without resort to
forgery), currency, or bullion, is $15.00
"Currency" here refers to paper money. You are correct that bullion, i.e.,bars/rounds are only paid off if sent registered. If it is an actual numismatic coin however, i.e., something with an assigned face value that is a legal tender item in the issuing country, then it can be sent insured PM. Things like American Eagles, MLs, Rands are thus covered, as they are technically coins even though they contain precious metal. Otherwise by your logic no precious metal bearing coin of any kind can be sent PM insured except via Registered. Where am I wrong here?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I know people who have had this issue. Someone on the forum wrote about it late last year. What you consider "technically coins" doesn't have to be what USPS does.
For example, ASE's have been exempt from NYS sales tax ($1000 or more) as bullion. By your criteria, they should be taxable in NYS because they are "coins". NYS defines bullion as anything made of precious metal which sells within X% of the bullion value. (X varies a bit by format and metal).
Fun fact: When the ASE premium went to $9 per coin, ASE's were suddenly NOT bullion in NYS and, therefore, subject to taxation!
At the very least, you run the risk of having an argument with USPS over the insurance value. Anything that is technically bullion (including ASEs, AGEs etc) would fall under the indemnity exemption.
I don't think your "legal tender" argument carries much weight. After all, the IRS allows for Eagles and K-rands to be in IRAs as bullion.
I don't think your "legal tender" argument carries much weight. After all, the IRS allows for Eagles and K-rands to be in IRAs as bullion.
So slabbed MS70 ASEs/AGEs/ etc. that are worth multiples of melt NUMISMATICALLY, aren't considered numismatic?
I think I'd win that argument. Especially when I can document their value in publications.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
That has nothing to do with legal tender status.
As I said, NY state uses the percentage of bullion value. I don't really know what the USPS uses. If you want, search for the thread where one of our brethren was awarded $15 by USPS. IIRC correctly, they eventually won on appeal. But you do need to be careful with insured priority because of the exemptions.
Is this the thread?
I think so. I thought it was more recent, but time flies when you're old. Lol
NYS defines bullion as anything made of precious metal which sells within X% of the bullion value.
This is an example of a much larger potential issue. Different states have differing criteria. So theoretically in NY if I am shipping a batch of, say, low end $5 Libs that aren't worth much more than melt, do they then magically become bullion, even if they are undoubtedly coins?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I find that type of retaliation to be petty and vindictive. Imagine if the major retailers started blocking customers from doing business with them due to returns. It's part of business and frankly when I get a return I refine my business practices because in some ways the customer was right and I wasn't in some way. Or as my mother used to say "cutting off the nose despite the face."
Actually many retailers are starting to track people who abuse the return policies and will block people for doing so. To your point though, without taking a few seconds to look and see how much business someone has done with you, blocking after a single return is as you say... 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'.
On ebay its really easy... When someone orders from you it says in green under the order if they are a repeat buyer. I haven't needed to, but I'd bet you can find all orders by that buyer and see their purchases to determine if they are a profitable client or not.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
How each state distinguishes between PM items for the purpose of taxation is not applicable here.
What matters here is how the USPS distinguishes between PM items during a theoretical claims process (i.e., "bullion" versus "coins of numismatic value"). Unfortunately, the USPS does not clearly define the difference within the DMM. At least, I could not find it.
With respect to the hypothesis that legal tender coins are automatically considered "coins of numismatic value" by the USPS, please see this thread, which was referenced earlier by @jmlanzaf. In short, the coin that @Bodin had to argue with the USPS about was a 1924 St. Gaudens $20.
You are correct on both points. State tax laws are irrelevant. Even Federal rules don't matter. And, to your point, the USPS does not provide a clear definition.
To my original post about the registered mail. If you have a $1500 or higher price, it costs more to ship it via priority insured than registered. Regardless of whether I ultimately prevail in my argument with USPS, why would I pay MORE in order to risk a months long fight with USPS? Registered mail is more secure and it is DEFINITELY insured. Yes, it's a little slower.
It’s no different than buying a polished coin described as BU, sending it in for grading only to receive a harshly cleaned grade then requesting a refund.
The OP did not move on. They got duped and couldn’t handle the outcome.
I just had an individual on eBay that won on a 10 day bid request a cancellation. Did I want to ban the individual ? Yes. Punch the individual In the face? Yes. Grab the individual, throw the individual to the ground, and then give the individual knee blows to the ribcage? Yes. But I didn’t. I approved the cancellation. Why? Because there will always be somebody, somewhere that wants gods money!