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Um, EXCUSE ME? ******** Update in Original Post
Bodin
Posts: 997 ✭✭✭
At NO POINT am I asked or told as I purchase insurance that coins/bullion is NOT insured for more than $15.
But lease feel free to buy as much as you would like!
## UPDATE
With the help of so many of you, along with a good peppering of snark(which motivated me) I made an appeal as to the settlement of my lost item. Between the original $22 check and this one, I'm square. Thank you EVERYONE. I'm always so grateful that this community exists for many reasons. My case was solely based upon shifting settlement from bullion(USPS' identification of my item) to an item of "numismatic value"
So everyone knows, my appeal packet consisted of:
- A 2.5 page letter of appeal explaining the misunderstanding between bullion and an item of "numismatic value". This included a page by page explanation of what they were looking at.
- The email of the original sale that included a photo of the coin and sale price.
- PayPal transaction showing the sale price, my name, and the buyer's identification
- The ebay page confirming bill of sale, tracking info, and buyer's identification
- usps tracking information showing that the item "could not be delivered" and "delivery failed"
- email confirmation of refund notice.
- buyers history of transaction reviews. This shows I wasn't dealing with a scammer.
- PCGS' Price History from coinfacts. This shows that my insurance value was fair market value.
- The final, and most important part of my case was showing that both on PCGS' and NGC's price pages, the 1924 $20 gold is not listed in the "bullion" category, but instead under "gold". I made that case in my letter that if the numismatic community had identified my lost coin as "bullion" it would've been categorized there, but it wasn't. **photo below
How I pay the bills:
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
9
Comments
Yikes. Thanks for the info but sorry to hear.
If you’re looking for help/suggestions, I think you’ll do better with a different, much more specific thread title.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Collectable coins are covered...bullion is not unless registered. Sorry for your loss.
This is correct
Actually, you ARE told, implicitly. It is in the conditions and terms which you accept when you purchase the insurance. Always read the fine print.
consider a claim with your Business or Homeowners policy.
That is horrible. I would be absolutely enraged if that happened to me. It didn't happen to me and I even feel angry just imagining how you must be feeling.
My advice? When you get that check...send it back to them. That is an insult to you.
I don't know how many hundreds of ounces of gold bullion I have purchased over the years but never once was any of them sent via registered mail. I am sure the PO collected more than their fair share of insurance fees though. Just another scam from another inept gooberment agency. Sorry for your loss, certainly a hard pill to swallow.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Is it? Or are they following their policies and procedures, which are spelled out to customers, if the customer so choses to read them?
If the coin was numismatic in nature, then perhaps the OP has a chance to redeem his loss.
It should be a crime to insure and collect $$$ for something that you don't actually honor and insure. No different than stealing in my book.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Nope. It would be like placing $50. in quarters in a parking meter that only allows up to $5. worth of time. Too bad, so sad. READ the print- know what YOU are doing.
There is a very fine line here... when I insure something, I am not asked specific questions about what the item is.
So unless I actually state what it is, how is the PO employee supposed to advise me on the specific policy related to the item I am shipping?
That said, it might be a better policy on their behalf to tell you what types of items have limited coverage....
Successful BST Transactions: erwindoc, VTchaser, moursund, robkool, RelicKING, Herb_T, Meltdown
A lot of people insure privately. Anyone who has been in the business for long knows that bullion isn't covered by postal insurance.
If you wrote gold bars on the package, they would tell you they don't insure it.
Seriously, it's a catch-22. People do not want to declare what's in the package, so they trust you to know the rules and don't ask you what was in the package.
You would be 10x as mad if every time you dropped off a package, they insisted on asking you what you were shipping.
Actually, they did insure the package - for the $15 statutory maximum
I've been accused of thinking like a Libertarian yet do believe LESS government and more PERSONAL responsibility is vital to not only individual successful lives, also a thriving nation. Too many lash out when THEY error and blame other entities (such as Government). It is NOT other peoples jobs in life to guide you through yours. Educate yourself when it comes to your personal matter and business and act accordingly. You (and your loved ones) will be happier for it.
They have no problem collecting money for something they don't even insure, That's stealing no matter how you try to spin it.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
So was the OP shipping bullion or numismatic coins?
If it was numismatic coins, file an appeal with that justification. If it was bullion, then that's an unfortunately expensive learning experience.
Yes, it would have been nice to have the clerk tell you what's only partially covered, but that list is a long one. Also, in the case of every insurance policy you'll ever buy, it's your responsibility to know what the coverage is that you're buying, not the salesman's. If that salesman's a USPS clerk, chances are they don't have a clue, anyway.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Or maybe you should be a responsible consumer and read the directions that are available in many places. Or, gasp, if worse comes to worse, ASK the postal employee at the time of shipping if it is covered. The PO is not your mom.
You're assuming "they" inquire as to specifically what is inside the package.
What if my mom is a Postperson?
THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SHIPPING because they allow you some privacy.
Looks like we have a few incompetent ex postal employees up in here. If you charge for a service for which you fail to provide you are a thief. They can't go bankrupt fast enough.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
They provided $15 in insurance.
Why isn't it criminal to try and insure bullion when it is uninsurable? How about filing a false claim on an ineligible item?
I mean, we should all just relax here. I would prefer the post office NOT ask me what is in a package. But that requires me to know the rules and obey them.
I could care less if they ask what I was shipping, in fact if I am purchasing insurance on a shipment I would expect they would demand it. When you insure a package nowhere do they make mention of what is or isn't covered. The least they could do is provide a disclaimer of what they do or do not cover when they are collecting your $$$$.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
They do provide a disclaimer. You simply chose to ignore reading it.
I will be sitting front and center gladly cheering on they usps's inevitable demise. Can't happen soon enough.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
https://about.usps.com/forms/ps3813.pdf
The disclaimer is on the back of the form. It doesn't spell out all exceptions but tells you that not everything is covered and where to look for the complete list.
To play legalistic devil's advocate to that, they insure it, but only for $15. What that means is that no matter what insurance premium you pay, whether $0 (because $50 is included with Priority Mail) or anything more, you are simply paying a different rate for the same coverage.
Now, that said, I don't have an insurance form handy (I use private insurance to cover my shipments), but I did go through the online label-making process to see what they say. I made up a Priority package worth $1000, and this is what is shown for insurance:
This says that the insurance covers the value of the package without caveats. Going to the billing step (after which the label is purchased, so there's no going back) the fine print doesn't say anything about insurance limitations (granted, it does give you a chance to read the whole DMM, but that's... ehhh.
Honestly, I'm torn here. I'm usually an annoying stickler for the rules. But in this case, there is nothing more than the slightest hint to a shipper that the insurance being purchased doesn't cover their package (a link to the DMM, where that rule is buried). At best, you could argue the shipper should know that they have to be able to prove the value in the case of loss, and overinsuring won't result in getting a higher payout. So yes, according to the terms the USPS has set, they are right with their decision, but at the same time, I think they're to blame for not providing the fine print in much of a usable way. If there were a giant paragraph of terms of insurance with the limit buried in there, you could more easily blame the shipper for not knowing. But here, it's tough to place that blame. At the very least, the rules specific to the package being sent should be displayed, particularly in light of other wording indicating the whole package is covered.
i empathize with the OP, that is a tough hit to take. seeing as how exemptions are probably the #2 most important thing to know, they should at least give a few sentences to give a feel for what they will not cover in plain sight. does the word coins or bullion (see specifics here) etc take up too much room? i think for that kind of loss, i would have to rip into someone. probably shake their hand or give a smile afterwards but not before some teeth sharpening went down.
this is a subject that has so far been discussed, speculated, contested, researched, posted and reposted about so that it is almost possible there is more info in our archives than on the usps website.
usually it comes about from a coin being shipped via ebay/pp through usps but this is still pretty close.
@Bodin - if you haven't already made a thread about the coin(s) loss, or other item(s), care to give us a heads-up to keep an eye out for?
Dear Bodin,
I am sorry this happened to you. You tried to do your due diligence by covering the item with insurance. The individual on the counter usually asks what the item is and to what amount you want it insured. That is professional service and it makes transactions efficient and satisfactory to both parties. By questioning the customer, s/he would know that if the item is bullion, it must be registered in order to insure it properly. I mean, why is the individual collecting insurance fees without asking what the item is and guide the customer appropriately?
Whenever I deal with the post office, the counter person always asks what an item is, whether I want to insure it, or how fast I want the shipment to be and they direct me accordingly. How is the average customer suppose to know that they need to register mail a certain category of item if they want it insured properly? The counter person is there for a reason. I know there is the fine print and customers should read it, but this situation also sounds like the counter person was not doing their job. Put a machine there instead where the customer has to direct the machine what they want such as print postage, pay for insurance, ask for registered mail, etc.
With all that said, who is the authority that designates the item to be bullion anyway? If its a coin in a PCGS holder, one can argue that it is numismatic. It is easy to argue that a pre-1933 $20 gold common date in MS 61 is numismatic since it is part of history but probably can be obtained like gold bullion in terms of price. However, a $50 gold American eagle slabbed as MS70 has an argument too. If not slabbed, was it proof? Proof coins are not really bullion.
If you decide to appeal this, my suggestion (place any value you wish on my opinion) is that I would argue it was a numismatic coin. Secondly, I would perhaps also mention that the counter person should have asked what you had and not simply charge you. It appears that protocol was not carefully followed here. A letter from a coin dealer stating that such and such a coin with this date is numismatic should count as evidence in your case/appeal.
I am not a lawyer by profession, just offering you my knowledge as a fellow collector. Do as you please with it. I hope there can be a remedy for you.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Lots of thoughts on this, and I don’t ship much through the mail, but if they’re not going to ask what’s in it when they sell you the insurance, why are they asking afterward?
I disagree with the below part of your post. I don’t think any established protocol was ignored and like it or not, the terms and conditions need not be pointed out by the postal clerk. Also, as has been mentioned, many customers would not want to be asked about the contents of their packages. Bottom line, the below is almost certainly a weaker argument than one regarding whether the coin was bullion or numismatic, in nature. And including that weaker argument could negatively impact the stronger one.
“...Secondly, I would perhaps also mention that the counter person should have asked what you had and not simply charge you. It appears that protocol was not carefully followed here.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not only that but you have been waiting 30 minutes and you have 13 people behind you impatiently waiting. So your supposed to break out the readers and read the policy. And then what? Decide the insurance isn't enough and not ship at all? NO! Like most of us, you say yes I'll take the insurance. I guess if you ship stuff everyday its a no-brainer and your aware.
I'd be mad as hell, wth am I buying insurance for if it doesn't even cover the cost of shipping...
MFeld,
My second point of argumentation was just my opinion. There may have been no protocol breach. One would need to know the protocol and then point out where it was breached, if at all. It was just a suggestion I was throwing out there. My first argument may not even work, but it is something to consider because one has to know who categorized the item and then see if there is room to challenge it.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
They refund the postage automatically on the claim. That's the other 7.75 in the OPs letter
They do, in the Domestic Mail Manual, Chapter 609, paragraph 4.1.m.
The bullion restriction to registered mail has been discussed numerous times here on the forum. It is the mailers responsibility to know the rules and limitations on placing something into the USPS system. The Domestic Mail Manual is the book of rules. There are certain rules for certain items. Sure, the postal employee will bring something to your attention if he is aware of it. For example if he hears a dog barking in your package, he will tell you you can't mail a dog (there is something in the manual that does allow the mailing of live chickens. lol) However, he is not aware of what is in your package and is only allowed to ask if it is fragile, liquid, perishable, or potentially hazardous.
Would the OP please ID specifically what was in the package? USPS does not specify what it considers to be bullion in its written rules. This could be our first indication of where they draw that invisible line.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
The occasions that I shipped gold coins, I fully insured and shipped registered. All worked well... though each shipment took about two weeks from origination to destination. Cheers, RickO
Involving my congressman resulted in full payment for insured value. This was in the 1980s and things may have changed. Worth checking.
Bodin---What was it that you insured? If it was a gold coin, it could be identified as a "numismatic collectable" rather than as gold bullion. I'm assuming gold coins are still insurable by the USPS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Oh! Well that's nice.
I guess to add insult to injury, he's not even getting the $50 in free coverage that Priority Mail gets you. I reiterate my question from yesterday, however. What was in the package?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
You asked them to sell you insurance, they didn't push it on you. When you ask for insurance it is assumed you know the limitations of their coverage, which as shown above are available in writing. Can you imagine how much longer the line would be if they quoted the rules of coverage to each customer?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I haven't received a registered package in a while. For those that have are they still getting signatures at the door, or are they signing for the recipient (as they are with non registered signature requirements) and leaving it in the mail box (due to virus concerns).
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Years back almost everything of significant value HAD to go by REG MAIL because the payout limits on insured mail was $300-$500. Are the limits now multiples of that today?
One advantage to pre-1933 US gold coins is that even the govt declared them as exempted from the 1934 gold reserve act and as "having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins." In other words, not bullion.....and therefore collectible coins. You could possibly say the same thing about circ silver Walkers and Merc dimes....not technically bullion. One advantage to these older US Coins sporting significant intrinsic precious metal value.
One thing I learned a long time ago is that insurance ccompanies will try to get away with paying out as little as possible. You should (almost) never accept the first settlement offered.
I don't know who actually provides USPS insurance (USPS itself? Third party?) but it might pay to try to fight or negotiate.
Agree. This title is up for the "Worst Title" award.
Very ironic considering that the title does a very poor job of communicating the content, and the thread itself is all about proper lack of communication of the USPS policy.
If it was in a slab, then its numismatic.
It’s like buying trip insurance which suddenly does not cover viruses😁
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USPS is likely self insured.
Note that the US Mint considers only it's bulk precious metal coins sold only to authorized purchasers to be "bullion." Anything sold directly to the public is a collector coin.
Now, if a bullion coin from the US Mint gets slabbed and certified, does it become a collector coin? Again, lack of clarification on what USPS considers bullion to be is of major concern.
I fired off a letter today to the Domestic Claims department seeking written clarification on how USPS defines "bullion" when it comes to paying claims that are not sent registered. Sure would be a biatch to discover that I have to pay the $20+ to insure a $100 half dollar because it is 90% silver. If I receive a decent reply I will post in a new thread.
Still waiting to see what Item the OP shipped.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt