@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
Yeah Ohtani should win every year simply because he pitches. Perhaps rename it the Ohtani award and give it to him the first day of the season. Trout of course shoudl come in second every year since he takes all those exciting walks....
Then another award can be created for someone who is actually a big if not the biggest component in helping their team get to the post season.
BTW if Judge was not on the Yankees I'd bet most here would be singing a different tune.
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If Ohtani consistently puts together years like this, it could get pretty annoying to watch him win it every year (which certainly works in Judge's favor). The Value of having someone with a .900 OPS across 650 plate appearances and a 2.43 ERA across 25-30 starts while leading the league in K/9 is remarkable. 20 of his 25 starts Ohtani's given up 2 runs or less.
BTW - it's certainly OK to appreciate how both players are having spectacular years. I'm certainly enjoying it. All the fun stories down the stretch - Judge Triple Crown chase, Ohtani being Ohtani, Pujols 700 HR chase. Can the Dodgers get to 116 wins? Can Trea Turner get his 3rd 20+ game hitting streak of 2022? I love this game!
Cheap Hal probably won't even re-sign Judge. My guess is Judge will be on LA or SF most likely the former next year. He has enough class not to stick it to the NYY fans and avoid the NYM and is smart enough to stay away from the Angels.
"Cheap" Hal already offered him $213.5m that Judge turned down. The Yankees should thank him for that. He'll be 31 early next year and has missed tons of games in half his seasons.
There is one type of MLB Baseball game Ohtani may never be able to "take over" it's called a Post Season Game. But like Trout he'd probably choke in a game for all the marbles.
Not that that matters to Judge and the Yankees as there is no lead they can take in a game that their bullpen won't give up. in the 8th and 9th.
I’m sure you will be wrong when Ohtani signs with the Yankees or Dodgers, but for the sake of this discussion we’ll pretend you are correct.
Cheap Hal probably won't even re-sign Judge. My guess is Judge will be on LA or SF most likely the former next year. He has enough class not to stick it to the NYY fans and avoid the NYM and is smart enough to stay away from the Angels.
"Cheap" Hal already offered him $213.5m that Judge turned down. The Yankees should thank him for that. He'll be 31 early next year and has missed tons of games in half his seasons.
I do agree the contract would have become an albatross the last 3-5 years. My my guess is he does get 7 years, 270M or 8 310 somewhere and it wont be from Hal - who BTW is cheap!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Both are having historic years. Judge will win the award this year. But either one is a great choice. Ohtani has been a really good player for about 3-4 years....a couple more seasons like the last 2 and he will be a Hall of Famer. What he has done has never been witnessed before. I'm in awe that he is this good. Really special to see. Judge is having a massive season.
Leading in all Triple Crown Categories and has equaled what was once the most Hallowed Record in All of Sports; Ruth's 60 HR's and has reached that number in 143 Games, which might have even pleased noted SOB Ford Frick.
Angels remain eliminated from all the many post season berths since early Sept.
Note the amount of categories Judge leads in - I think that is called dominance:
P.S. He does strike out way too much though, but in fairness if strike zone for his size was called correctly he'd probably have 50-60 less. No one in MLB has more balls called strikes against them than Judge. His numbers would be even better if Robo-umps were in place instead of the stiffs MLB currently employees
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
For long term stability career wise I would go with Ohtani. Judge gets hurt too much for my liking. But if Ohtani continues to do both, he may be just as injury prone. Would like to see him pick one or the other.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
For those that suspect Judge partakes in artificial help, they may want to sell now at the price peak. For fear the %#*&^% may hit the fan at a later date. He does or doesn't is of no concern to me.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@ndleo said:
I hope both Judge and Ohtani hit the open market this year. It will be fascinating how much each gets valued by other clubs.
Well Ohtani is under contract through next year, so not likely. I'm also curious about Judge's offers.
He's not a free agent, but I don't see Arte keeping him around if he can get cheap top prospects for him. Ohtani will get a new contract extension next year, just don't know which team is going to be paying him.
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
For long term stability career wise I would go with Ohtani. Judge gets hurt too much for my liking. But if Ohtani continues to do both, he may be just as injury prone. Would like to see him pick one or the other.
Ohtani also has a pretty good history of injuries. His first three seasons he pitched a total of fewer than 54 innings.
@ndleo said:
I hope both Judge and Ohtani hit the open market this year. It will be fascinating how much each gets valued by other clubs.
Well Ohtani is under contract through next year, so not likely. I'm also curious about Judge's offers.
He's not a free agent, but I don't see Arte keeping him around if he can get cheap top prospects for him. Ohtani will get a new contract extension next year, just don't know which team is going to be paying him.
No, I don't see the Angels following the frankly bizarre path the Red Sox have with Bogaerts. Consider: everyone expects Bogaerts to be a free agent at the end of the season, the Red Sox haven't made what Bogaerts considers a fair offer for an extension, the Red Sox had no intention of contending this year, if not at the beginning at least by the end of July, and yet they failed to trade him.
So, my rebuttal is in two parts. 1) Moreno is actively trying to sell the team. 2) there is no reason to believe that Ohtani would prefer to sign a long-term deal in Detroit, or wherever he winds up, rather than test the open market.
In any event, the contention was that Ohtani would hit the open market this year, which I maintained wasn't very likely given his contract.
Both Judge and Ohtani have injury histories - but the highest bidder in the open market will be the team who believes the most in their health - so I don’t think there will be much priced into either contract. Assuming both hit the open market (Judge is a certainty at this point), Judge’s deal will help Ohtani get more as it will be a nice high AAV point of comparison. If the Angels trade him this year - he cannot get a qualifying offer and the signing team does not give up a draft pick - which makes teams willing to pay a vit more as well.
In 2025 my guess is Ohtani will be the highest AAV player with Scherzer 2 and Judge 3. All will cross the $40MM mark as Scherzer already has.
There will be a lot of young players that signed deals with their original teams (wow does Atlanta look impossible to beat on that front) that will start to feel really underpaid once the dust clears. As a Cubs fan I am confident that none of the above will be playing for my favorite team, though I would love to be wrong.
@craig44 said:
Why do some people use team accomplishments as criteria for an individual award? makes as much sense as using pitcher wins and rbi to value hitters and pitchers. Does anyone really believe it is Ohtanis fault the LAA are a terrible team? Does anyone really believe that if the two players switched teams that Judge would single handedly make LAA a playoff team? It is foolishness.
Judge is having a fantastic season. historic even. but his value is not what Ohtani's value is.
simply, Ohtani is basically 2/3rds the hitter Judge is. According to the defensive metrics, Judge is about an average outfielder. Ohtani is a top 5 pitcher in his league.
by being a full time DH, who could no doubt play 1b or corner outfield if needed, and being a true number one starter, Ohtani does something Judge can never do. Namely, free up a roster spot. there is no current metric that I know of to calculate the value of that, but, it has to be very high. other than ruth, no one has ever added that value to a team. and no one has ever done it better than ohtani.
Ohtani is MVP
Ohtani is the better overall player. Judge is a main cog in a team that will win the division and has a great chance to play in the world series. The Winner takes the spoils. Ohtani can't even get there to have a chance, even with Mike Trout.
@azvike said:
And he re-signed long term with the Tribe for WAYYYYY under market value. We are lucky to have him!
Yes he did - the no trade protection was all he was after. Definitely wanted to play the rest of his career for the Guardians. A special player and definitely one of the most under-appreciated.
Some people are getting snarky because they don't realize how impressive it is what Ohtani is doing. The only comparison I can think of is the year when Bo Jackson was an MLB All-Star and an NFL Pro-Bowler. Ohtani has now had 2 such seasons.
Aaron Judge's season is like a running back that has a 2000 yard season (of which there have been 8). Judge's 2022 season is the 9th time a player has hit 60+ home runs. 2 weeks ago, I was an Ohtani guy, but winning the triple crown would solidify the MVP for Judge. It's really fun to follow.
Ohtani needs 58 more stolen bases to over take Babe Ruth. He’ll do it in a shorter period of time. He’ll be better pitcher and baserunner.
This thread is teetering on jumping the shark!
It did when people started posting daily Judge stats. Surprised if took someone this long to comment. However, Topps Now will make that card once Ohtani breaks Ruth career stolen bases record.
A triple crown with a .315 avg, all of those Ks, and very little walks is funny. Baseball is a wacky sport, this season is definitely up there. Everything Judge is doing has been done. Not Ohtani. His garbage team and what the 3rd worse commissioner ever did with the DH rule cannot be held against Ohtani.
A triple crown with a .315 avg, all of those Ks, and very little walks is funny. Baseball is a wacky sport, this season is definitely up there. Everything Judge is doing has been done. Not Ohtani. His garbage team and what the 3rd worse commissioner ever did with the DH rule cannot be held against Ohtani.
Yaz won the 1968 AL batting title with a .301 - 2nd position was .290, 2 less hits for Yaz and .299 would have won it!
My guess next year as some of the shifts are banned, averages creep up.
Very little walks? Judge will lead the AL and will have over 100, 110-115 is likley. Metrics and WAR aside; walks are not fun to watch and Trout IMHO is a huge bore to watch as result.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Ohtani is one inning away from qualifying as a full time starter. He starts the final game of the season against OAK. He also took a no-hitter deep into the game last night.
Approx 2.35 ERA, 15 wins, .275 average with a near 100 rbi and 34 home runs.
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
@jayhawke said:
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
@nam812 said:
Here is my last word to the guys misguidedly thinking Ohtani has a chance at AL MVP.
With the exact same number of at bats as Aaron Judge, Ohtani has:
23 less HRs, 35 less RBIs, 45 less points on his Avg., 36 less runs scored, also far behind Judge in too many more categories to mention, and........
with regard to pitching.......wait for it.......HE'S NOT EVEN GOING TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNG!!!
oh my.
rbi and runs scored. those are team-dependent metrics. what do they have to do with comparing two individual players?
with regard to pitching, Ohtani is a top 5 starter in the AL. he is having a dominating season on the mound.
Wait, does he not have enough "wins" for you?!?!?!?
I already mentioned that Ohtani is worth about 2/3rds of Judges offensive value. that has been conceded. you have not addressed the extra roster spot Ohtani allows that judge cant touch.
Oh, you are probably now going to start talking about the gold glove Judge will win this year that he so richly deserves for his stellar play...
YMMV, and I think it almost certainly does, but I don't see great value in enabling a Jo Adell or Aaron Loup to remain on the active roster.
MVP needn't go to a player on the best team, but there should be a lot of weight for playing meaningful games. It's not determinative, but there has to be some weight for a player whose team wouldn't be contending without him over one who's having a great season, but it doesn't really matter to his team.
Ohtani is having a really good year. Probably second best in baseball. Judge is having a better year, and for a team contending for a playoff spot. Adding the Adell/Loup factor doesn't change anything.
By the way, Ohtani is more like 1/3 than 2/3 of Judge at the plate, which is still very good. Also, you've played a tremendous shell game as far as defense is concerned: Judge has 999 innings this year split about 3:2 between indifferent CF and very good RF. Absolutely no question that Ohtani has been much better (and more valuable) when pitching, but that's been only 141 innings. The other 858 equivalent innings, Ohtani has given the Angels absolutely nothing defensively. So on defense Judge is something like 1/4 of Ohtani, far from the "nothing" you suggest.
as far as the extra roster spot goes...> @FirstBeard said:
Ohtani is one inning away from qualifying as a full time starter. He starts the final game of the season against OAK. He also took a no-hitter deep into the game last night.
Approx 2.35 ERA, 15 wins, .275 average with a near 100 rbi and 34 home runs.
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
this is 100% true. we have never seen anything like this in the history of baseball. at least since 1900.
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
Regardless of what you think about Ohtani, he belongs to the very small group of players for whom the rules were changed, along with Chamberlain and (I think) Gretzky. I don't attribute the mound height reduction to any one player. This is, though, the only change I can remember to make an elite player more dominant.
@jayhawke said:
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
I think you're right, but Cease seems to be significantly better than Verlander this year.
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
Regardless of what you think about Ohtani, he belongs to the very small group of players for whom the rules were changed, along with Chamberlain and (I think) Gretzky. I don't attribute the mound height reduction to any one player. This is, though, the only change I can remember to make an elite player more dominant.
What change?
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@jayhawke said:
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
I think you're right, but Cease seems to be significantly better than Verlander this year.
I wouldn't go that far. Cease is awesome, but the only major category he's superior is K's. Verlander's 0.85 WHIP is pretty sick.
@jayhawke said:
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
I think you're right, but Cease seems to be significantly better than Verlander this year.
Based on what? His ERA, ERA+, WHIP, FIP, K/BB, and homers allowed are all worse. He's got 9 more IP, a better but basically identical H/9, and more K. I don't see a case for better let alone "significantly better".
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
Regardless of what you think about Ohtani, he belongs to the very small group of players for whom the rules were changed, along with Chamberlain and (I think) Gretzky. I don't attribute the mound height reduction to any one player. This is, though, the only change I can remember to make an elite player more dominant.
What change?
Prior to this year a player couldn't effectively be a pitcher/dh. So last year when Ohtani, or anybody else in baseball history, batted as a pitcher, his team would lose the DH, so when Ohtani was relieved (as a pitcher) his team would have to have all subsequent pitchers bat in his spot. Now not only can Ohtani stay in the game, but a new "bat only" DH can replace him and the positions can be decoupled again.
@jayhawke said:
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
I think you're right, but Cease seems to be significantly better than Verlander this year.
Based on what? His ERA, ERA+, WHIP, FIP, K/BB, and homers allowed are all worse. He's got 9 more IP, a better but basically identical H/9, and more K. I don't see a case for better let alone "significantly better".
Cease has 42 RAA and 6.5 WAR compared to 34 and 5.5 for Verlander. For whatever the heck it's worth, of the four leading candidates (Ohtani, Manoah) Cease is the only one to pitch a complete game, let alone a shutout.
@jayhawke said:
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
I think you're right, but Cease seems to be significantly better than Verlander this year.
Based on what? His ERA, ERA+, WHIP, FIP, K/BB, and homers allowed are all worse. He's got 9 more IP, a better but basically identical H/9, and more K. I don't see a case for better let alone "significantly better".
Cease has 42 RAA and 6.5 WAR compared to 34 and 5.5 for Verlander. For whatever the heck it's worth, of the four leading candidates (Ohtani, Manoah) Cease is the only one to pitch a complete game, let alone a shutout.
The problem with RAA is that it's literally based on a guess (RA9avg - in its definition, it's flat out called a guess). Cease allows 30% more runners per inning. I'm aware that's influenced to a degree by opponents and the like.
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
Regardless of what you think about Ohtani, he belongs to the very small group of players for whom the rules were changed, along with Chamberlain and (I think) Gretzky. I don't attribute the mound height reduction to any one player. This is, though, the only change I can remember to make an elite player more dominant.
What change?
Prior to this year a player couldn't effectively be a pitcher/dh. So last year when Ohtani, or anybody else in baseball history, batted as a pitcher, his team would lose the DH, so when Ohtani was relieved (as a pitcher) his team would have to have all subsequent pitchers bat in his spot. Now not only can Ohtani stay in the game, but a new "bat only" DH can replace him and the positions can be decoupled again.
Got it. Good point.
That said, I wouldn’t compare that to the Chamberlain/Russell/Mikan lane widening, the Russell goaltending rules, the Kareem (and Wilt?) no dunking rules and the anti Shaq rules that existed the entirety of his career.
This is more akin to the rule changes that were designed to and benefitted players like Michael Jordan, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady - rules designed to showcase popular and talented players and their skill sets.
Not much of a fan of either type of changes to rules but I really don’t care for the latter…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
Regardless of what you think about Ohtani, he belongs to the very small group of players for whom the rules were changed, along with Chamberlain and (I think) Gretzky. I don't attribute the mound height reduction to any one player. This is, though, the only change I can remember to make an elite player more dominant.
What change?
Prior to this year a player couldn't effectively be a pitcher/dh. So last year when Ohtani, or anybody else in baseball history, batted as a pitcher, his team would lose the DH, so when Ohtani was relieved (as a pitcher) his team would have to have all subsequent pitchers bat in his spot. Now not only can Ohtani stay in the game, but a new "bat only" DH can replace him and the positions can be decoupled again.
Got it. Good point.
That said, I wouldn’t compare that to the Chamberlain/Russell/Mikan lane widening, the Russell goaltending rules, the Kareem (and Wilt?) no dunking rules and the anti Shaq rules that existed the entirety of his career.
This is more akin to the rule changes that were designed to and benefitted players like Michael Jordan, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady - rules designed to showcase popular and talented players and their skill sets.
Not much of a fan of either type of changes to rules but I really don’t care for the latter…
Correct. The Ohtani rule change was done to highlight him so he can play more.
The rule change benefitted Ohtani while the other rule changes made it harder for those other players listed.
Prior to this year a player couldn't effectively be a pitcher/dh. So last year when Ohtani, or anybody else in baseball history, batted as a pitcher, his team would lose the DH, so when Ohtani was relieved (as a pitcher) his team would have to have all subsequent pitchers bat in his spot. Now not only can Ohtani stay in the game, but a new "bat only" DH can replace him and the positions can be decoupled again.
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I was unaware of this rule change. Very interesting. Kinda reminds me of the Pat Venditte rule where a pitcher has to declare to the batter which hand he is pitching with before the at-bat starts and has to continue pitching with that hand the entire at-bat. Venditte was another Unicorn (just not quite as talented as Ohtani).
@craig44 said:
Greg harris also was an ambidextrous pitcher. I believe it was 1995 when he did pitch with both hands in the same game
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Oh yea, good call Craig. But, if I remember correctly I think Harris did it one time for fun in the last game of his career. Venditte would literally switch back and forth mid inning based on the batter. He had a special glove made.
..."range factor"...a term coined by guys that never played baseball beyond elementary school and are still waiting to touch their first breast...
Aaron Judge is an exceptional player on both sides. He is the most valuable daily player in the game. How anyone can dispute that is puzzling, but that's one of the truly great things about baseball. As a Red Sox fan, he is actually terrifying, 😆 🤣
"You've gotta be a man to play this game...but you'd better have a lot of little boy in you, too"--Roy Campanella
A triple crown with a .315 avg, all of those Ks, and very little walks is funny. Baseball is a wacky sport, this season is definitely up there. Everything Judge is doing has been done. Not Ohtani. His garbage team and what the 3rd worse commissioner ever did with the DH rule cannot be held against Ohtani.
Yaz won the 1968 AL batting title with a .301 - 2nd position was .290, 2 less hits for Yaz and .299 would have won it!
My guess next year as some of the shifts are banned, averages creep up.
Very little walks? Judge will lead the AL and will have over 100, 110-115 is likley. Metrics and WAR aside; **walks are not fun to watch **and Trout IMHO is a huge bore to watch as result.
Hey! How dare you say that about Juan Soto!
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
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It is a good thing the Yankees haven't needed anything from Judge the last 15 games (counting today) of the season. He has been terrible, the pressure has gotten to him or maybe he just can't perform when the pressure is the highest. He was having one of the best starts to September in MLB history but hit a brick wall. With their main cog playing awfully the Yankees are 12-3 closing out the season and clinching their division. It appears that the Yankees would be a playoff team even without Judge, which makes being on a playoff team an odd requirement for the MVP.
Hopefully, Judge does better in the playoffs and this current funk doesn't linger, though he is a .230 lifetime hitter in the postseason.
Prior to this year a player couldn't effectively be a pitcher/dh. So last year when Ohtani, or anybody else in baseball history, batted as a pitcher, his team would lose the DH, so when Ohtani was relieved (as a pitcher) his team would have to have all subsequent pitchers bat in his spot. Now not only can Ohtani stay in the game, but a new "bat only" DH can replace him and the positions can be decoupled again.
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I was unaware of this rule change. Very interesting. Kinda reminds me of the Pat Venditte rule where a pitcher has to declare to the batter which hand he is pitching with before the at-bat starts and has to continue pitching with that hand the entire at-bat. Venditte was another Unicorn (just not quite as talented as Ohtani).
@BuckHunter68 said:
..."range factor"...a term coined by guys that never played baseball beyond elementary school and are still waiting to touch their first breast...
Aaron Judge is an exceptional player on both sides. He is the most valuable daily player in the game. How anyone can dispute that is puzzling, but that's one of the truly great things about baseball. As a Red Sox fan, he is actually terrifying, 😆 🤣
very easily disputed. Ohtani this season is about 2/3rds the hitter Judge is. just for kicks and giggles, what is Judges ERA this season? how about his k/9?
Judge is having a fantastic season. even historic. Ohtani is doing something no one has EVER seen.
Comments
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If Ohtani consistently puts together years like this, it could get pretty annoying to watch him win it every year (which certainly works in Judge's favor). The Value of having someone with a .900 OPS across 650 plate appearances and a 2.43 ERA across 25-30 starts while leading the league in K/9 is remarkable. 20 of his 25 starts Ohtani's given up 2 runs or less.
BTW - it's certainly OK to appreciate how both players are having spectacular years. I'm certainly enjoying it. All the fun stories down the stretch - Judge Triple Crown chase, Ohtani being Ohtani, Pujols 700 HR chase. Can the Dodgers get to 116 wins? Can Trea Turner get his 3rd 20+ game hitting streak of 2022? I love this game!
"Cheap" Hal already offered him $213.5m that Judge turned down. The Yankees should thank him for that. He'll be 31 early next year and has missed tons of games in half his seasons.
I do agree the contract would have become an albatross the last 3-5 years. My my guess is he does get 7 years, 270M or 8 310 somewhere and it wont be from Hal - who BTW is cheap!
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Both are having historic years. Judge will win the award this year. But either one is a great choice. Ohtani has been a really good player for about 3-4 years....a couple more seasons like the last 2 and he will be a Hall of Famer. What he has done has never been witnessed before. I'm in awe that he is this good. Really special to see. Judge is having a massive season.
Leading in all Triple Crown Categories and has equaled what was once the most Hallowed Record in All of Sports; Ruth's 60 HR's and has reached that number in 143 Games, which might have even pleased noted SOB Ford Frick.
Angels remain eliminated from all the many post season berths since early Sept.
Note the amount of categories Judge leads in - I think that is called dominance:
P.S. He does strike out way too much though, but in fairness if strike zone for his size was called correctly he'd probably have 50-60 less. No one in MLB has more balls called strikes against them than Judge. His numbers would be even better if Robo-umps were in place instead of the stiffs MLB currently employees
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I hope both Judge and Ohtani hit the open market this year. It will be fascinating how much each gets valued by other clubs.
Well Ohtani is under contract through next year, so not likely. I'm also curious about Judge's offers.
Next contract Ohtani will be the highest AAV in baseball history. That is a guarantee.
Higher than Mad Max's $43.3m? I'm skeptical.
For long term stability career wise I would go with Ohtani. Judge gets hurt too much for my liking. But if Ohtani continues to do both, he may be just as injury prone. Would like to see him pick one or the other.
For those that suspect Judge partakes in artificial help, they may want to sell now at the price peak. For fear the %#*&^% may hit the fan at a later date. He does or doesn't is of no concern to me.
Judge cards will never be more hot than now. Strike while the iron is hot. Conversely there will never be a worse time to buy them than now.
BTW: Ohtani doing what he does will get hurt - not if but when. The question how much of his game will be eliminated as result.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
He's not a free agent, but I don't see Arte keeping him around if he can get cheap top prospects for him. Ohtani will get a new contract extension next year, just don't know which team is going to be paying him.
Ohtani also has a pretty good history of injuries. His first three seasons he pitched a total of fewer than 54 innings.
No, I don't see the Angels following the frankly bizarre path the Red Sox have with Bogaerts. Consider: everyone expects Bogaerts to be a free agent at the end of the season, the Red Sox haven't made what Bogaerts considers a fair offer for an extension, the Red Sox had no intention of contending this year, if not at the beginning at least by the end of July, and yet they failed to trade him.
So, my rebuttal is in two parts. 1) Moreno is actively trying to sell the team. 2) there is no reason to believe that Ohtani would prefer to sign a long-term deal in Detroit, or wherever he winds up, rather than test the open market.
In any event, the contention was that Ohtani would hit the open market this year, which I maintained wasn't very likely given his contract.
Both Judge and Ohtani have injury histories - but the highest bidder in the open market will be the team who believes the most in their health - so I don’t think there will be much priced into either contract. Assuming both hit the open market (Judge is a certainty at this point), Judge’s deal will help Ohtani get more as it will be a nice high AAV point of comparison. If the Angels trade him this year - he cannot get a qualifying offer and the signing team does not give up a draft pick - which makes teams willing to pay a vit more as well.
In 2025 my guess is Ohtani will be the highest AAV player with Scherzer 2 and Judge 3. All will cross the $40MM mark as Scherzer already has.
There will be a lot of young players that signed deals with their original teams (wow does Atlanta look impossible to beat on that front) that will start to feel really underpaid once the dust clears. As a Cubs fan I am confident that none of the above will be playing for my favorite team, though I would love to be wrong.
Jose Ramirez...the most valuable, under rated superstar that nationally still flies under the radar...Hope he comes in #3
Ohtani is the better overall player. Judge is a main cog in a team that will win the division and has a great chance to play in the world series. The Winner takes the spoils. Ohtani can't even get there to have a chance, even with Mike Trout.
He is awesome; no doubt. Does it all and plays a premium position - really well.
Great player
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And he re-signed long term with the Tribe for WAYYYYY under market value. We are lucky to have him!
Yes he did - the no trade protection was all he was after. Definitely wanted to play the rest of his career for the Guardians. A special player and definitely one of the most under-appreciated.
Pujols for the NL> @jayhawke said:
This thread is teetering on jumping the shark!
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Some people are getting snarky because they don't realize how impressive it is what Ohtani is doing. The only comparison I can think of is the year when Bo Jackson was an MLB All-Star and an NFL Pro-Bowler. Ohtani has now had 2 such seasons.
Aaron Judge's season is like a running back that has a 2000 yard season (of which there have been 8). Judge's 2022 season is the 9th time a player has hit 60+ home runs. 2 weeks ago, I was an Ohtani guy, but winning the triple crown would solidify the MVP for Judge. It's really fun to follow.
It did when people started posting daily Judge stats. Surprised if took someone this long to comment. However, Topps Now will make that card once Ohtani breaks Ruth career stolen bases record.
A triple crown with a .315 avg, all of those Ks, and very little walks is funny. Baseball is a wacky sport, this season is definitely up there. Everything Judge is doing has been done. Not Ohtani. His garbage team and what the 3rd worse commissioner ever did with the DH rule cannot be held against Ohtani.
test > @FirstBeard said:
Yaz won the 1968 AL batting title with a .301 - 2nd position was .290, 2 less hits for Yaz and .299 would have won it!
My guess next year as some of the shifts are banned, averages creep up.
Very little walks? Judge will lead the AL and will have over 100, 110-115 is likley. Metrics and WAR aside; walks are not fun to watch and Trout IMHO is a huge bore to watch as result.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
We should switch the discussion. Ohtani could be the CY.. He is probably a top 3 pitcher in the AL.
Ohtani is one inning away from qualifying as a full time starter. He starts the final game of the season against OAK. He also took a no-hitter deep into the game last night.
Approx 2.35 ERA, 15 wins, .275 average with a near 100 rbi and 34 home runs.
What Judge is doing is incredible, but Ohtani is absurd. A unicorn.
Verlander has the Cy Young wrapped up but Ohtani sure was dominating last night. Finishing the no-hitter would have taken the MVP conversation to another level.
as far as the extra roster spot goes...> @FirstBeard said:
this is 100% true. we have never seen anything like this in the history of baseball. at least since 1900.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Regardless of what you think about Ohtani, he belongs to the very small group of players for whom the rules were changed, along with Chamberlain and (I think) Gretzky. I don't attribute the mound height reduction to any one player. This is, though, the only change I can remember to make an elite player more dominant.
I think you're right, but Cease seems to be significantly better than Verlander this year.
What change?
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I wouldn't go that far. Cease is awesome, but the only major category he's superior is K's. Verlander's 0.85 WHIP is pretty sick.
Based on what? His ERA, ERA+, WHIP, FIP, K/BB, and homers allowed are all worse. He's got 9 more IP, a better but basically identical H/9, and more K. I don't see a case for better let alone "significantly better".
Prior to this year a player couldn't effectively be a pitcher/dh. So last year when Ohtani, or anybody else in baseball history, batted as a pitcher, his team would lose the DH, so when Ohtani was relieved (as a pitcher) his team would have to have all subsequent pitchers bat in his spot. Now not only can Ohtani stay in the game, but a new "bat only" DH can replace him and the positions can be decoupled again.
Cease has 42 RAA and 6.5 WAR compared to 34 and 5.5 for Verlander. For whatever the heck it's worth, of the four leading candidates (Ohtani, Manoah) Cease is the only one to pitch a complete game, let alone a shutout.
The problem with RAA is that it's literally based on a guess (RA9avg - in its definition, it's flat out called a guess). Cease allows 30% more runners per inning. I'm aware that's influenced to a degree by opponents and the like.
As for WAR, in this case, it's just wrong.
Having said that, appreciate response.
Got it. Good point.
That said, I wouldn’t compare that to the Chamberlain/Russell/Mikan lane widening, the Russell goaltending rules, the Kareem (and Wilt?) no dunking rules and the anti Shaq rules that existed the entirety of his career.
This is more akin to the rule changes that were designed to and benefitted players like Michael Jordan, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady - rules designed to showcase popular and talented players and their skill sets.
Not much of a fan of either type of changes to rules but I really don’t care for the latter…
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Correct. The Ohtani rule change was done to highlight him so he can play more.
The rule change benefitted Ohtani while the other rule changes made it harder for those other players listed.
.
I was unaware of this rule change. Very interesting. Kinda reminds me of the Pat Venditte rule where a pitcher has to declare to the batter which hand he is pitching with before the at-bat starts and has to continue pitching with that hand the entire at-bat. Venditte was another Unicorn (just not quite as talented as Ohtani).
https://youtu.be/ut0xK9gBSIw
Greg harris also was an ambidextrous pitcher. I believe it was 1995 when he did pitch with both hands in the same game
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
>
Oh yea, good call Craig. But, if I remember correctly I think Harris did it one time for fun in the last game of his career. Venditte would literally switch back and forth mid inning based on the batter. He had a special glove made.
15 wins now, ohtani snatched the MVP from the claws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
..."range factor"...a term coined by guys that never played baseball beyond elementary school and are still waiting to touch their first breast...
Aaron Judge is an exceptional player on both sides. He is the most valuable daily player in the game. How anyone can dispute that is puzzling, but that's one of the truly great things about baseball. As a Red Sox fan, he is actually terrifying, 😆 🤣
"You've gotta be a man to play this game...but you'd better have a lot of little boy in you, too"--Roy Campanella
Could pick up #16 tomorrow.
Hey! How dare you say that about Juan Soto!
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It is a good thing the Yankees haven't needed anything from Judge the last 15 games (counting today) of the season. He has been terrible, the pressure has gotten to him or maybe he just can't perform when the pressure is the highest. He was having one of the best starts to September in MLB history but hit a brick wall. With their main cog playing awfully the Yankees are 12-3 closing out the season and clinching their division. It appears that the Yankees would be a playoff team even without Judge, which makes being on a playoff team an odd requirement for the MVP.
Hopefully, Judge does better in the playoffs and this current funk doesn't linger, though he is a .230 lifetime hitter in the postseason.
Robb
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very easily disputed. Ohtani this season is about 2/3rds the hitter Judge is. just for kicks and giggles, what is Judges ERA this season? how about his k/9?
Judge is having a fantastic season. even historic. Ohtani is doing something no one has EVER seen.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.