@craig44 said:
his range factor is aligned with the league average both in right and in center. his rtot and rdrs are both average to slightly below average for CF. both of those metrics are above average for RF.
@olb31 said:
** He still does commercials, announced monday football for years **and his cards are at the top of the heap. All that for winning the biggest one. I bet Trout would like to win a playoff game, much less the biggest upset in Super Bowl History.
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This is probably the main reason that he's so relevant. He was also a big personality when that didn't really happen in sports then. Similar to Derek Sanderson.
Namath was MVP of the that Super Bowl also. His rookie card is one of the most valuable football cards. Probably top 5.
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Larry Brown, Deion Branch & Mark Rypien also was a Super Bowl MVP. That doesn't make them one of the best to play.
My knock on Namath is his 5 winning seasons and career record of one game under .500. I don't think there are any other QB's (or Pitchers) with a record like that and make the HOF.
Stat wise Namath is pretty much the Nolan Ryan of Football.
What Namath did for the AFL and ultimately the NFL is historic. It was a catalyst in making football the #1 sport in the US for decades.
Leaving stats and pure career performance aside Namath did more for the game than Montana or Brady. Some players simply transcend their game without Michael Jordan (or Brady) like dominance.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@olb31 said:
** He still does commercials, announced monday football for years **and his cards are at the top of the heap. All that for winning the biggest one. I bet Trout would like to win a playoff game, much less the biggest upset in Super Bowl History.
>
>
This is probably the main reason that he's so relevant. He was also a big personality when that didn't really happen in sports then. Similar to Derek Sanderson.
Namath was MVP of the that Super Bowl also. His rookie card is one of the most valuable football cards. Probably top 5.
>
>
Larry Brown, Deion Branch & Mark Rypien also was a Super Bowl MVP. That doesn't make them one of the best to play.
My knock on Namath is his 5 winning seasons and career record of one game under .500. I don't think there are any other QB's (or Pitchers) with a record like that and make the HOF.
Stat wise Namath is pretty much the Nolan Ryan of Football.
What Namath did for the AFL and ultimately the NFL is historic. It was a catalyst in making football the #1 sport in the US for decades.
Leaving stats and pure career performance aside Namath did more for the game than Montana or Brady. Some players simply transcend their game without Michael Jordan (or Brady) like dominance.
I agree with you there, but for me it doesn't make him a HOF'er.
@craig44 said:
his range factor is aligned with the league average both in right and in center. his rtot and rdrs are both average to slightly below average for CF. both of those metrics are above average for RF.
Roy Hobbs: Did you ever play ball, Max?
Max Mercy: No, never have.
I am starting to understand where this is going now. So, If you don't want to use actual data to make your assertions, now we have to have a measuring contest to see which of us played the highest level of baseball to see whose opinion carries more weight.
@craig44 said:
.......Judge is about an average outfielder.........
I can't even take you semi seriously now.
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LOL, you crack me up. Judge has a negative dWAR this year which means that he is actually below average defensively in 2022 and he negatively affects the Yankee's win total when he is in the field. That said, I'm ok with calling him "About Average"
Everything else Craig (and I) said makes too much sense and is all indisputable (which is why you don't dispute it). While what Judge is doing offensively this year is incredible, we've all seen 70 home runs in a season before. Juice or no Juice, nobody alive has seen what Ohtani is doing this year.
BTW, I do feel bad for Angels fans. 73% of their 2022 payroll is taken up by 4 players - one is on IR (and sucks) and two are playing for other teams. Not a winning plan.
The Yankees are 6 games up with 20 games left. How meaningful is each game now? They have a 98.8% chance to win the division. If they go a mere 10-10 - Toronto has to go 16-4 to catch them.
In the last 30 the Yankees have gone 15-15 and are still 6 games up with a 98.8% chance to win the division. I could argue with the Yanks huge league the second half has made for largely meaningless games.
The MVP should go to the best player.
Pretty sure the pitcher is trying just as hard to get Ohtani out as he is Judge. Each run they give up could be worth $100K less in arbitration or the difference between AAA and the majors tomorrow or next season.
Each batter is trying their best to get a meaningless hit off of Ohtani when he pitches. If we pretend it is so different to perform only when it “matters” then Ohtani is facing a bunch of players at their absolute “meaningless” peak when he strikes them out, which is more impressive than getting guys out in those meaningful “clutch” situations when all but the very best of all-time choke. Same with when he is hitting - he hit 33 home runs when those crappy pitchers can get the ball exactly where they want in those “pressure less” situations while pulling that extra 2MPH from the tank of meaningless excellence we all have.
All 162 games count for all MLB players. The MVP is a regular season award. All of the when it matters talk makes me laugh.
@brad31 said:
The Yankees are 6 games up with 20 games left. How meaningful is each game now? They have a 98.8% chance to win the division. If they go a mere 10-10 - Toronto has to go 16-4 to catch them.
In the last 30 the Yankees have gone 15-15 and are still 6 games up with a 98.8% chance to win the division. I could argue with the Yanks huge league the second half has made for largely meaningless games.
The MVP should go to the best player.
Without Judge they no longer in 1st. they are behindboth Toronto and Tampa
Yankees are injury riddled and Holmes does his very best, often succeeding, to give up any game in which they have the lead. April-Late June aside this is a middling team riding on Judge's back. I'm a fan but will be totally shocked if they make it out of the first round.
MVP historically does always not go the the "best player" it goes to the most valuable. However with anti NY BIAS' it would not surprise me if Ohtani get it. But to be clear helping your team to a 4th place finish in 5 team division without even sniffing a wild-card berth is NOTHING TO BE PROUD ABOUT!
BTW w/o Ohtani the Angels probably are still in 4th place in their 5 team division and if not then still very much contending for that worthless position, so how exactly is he valuable not to his collector's but to his team? ?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Here is my last word to the guys misguidedly thinking Ohtani has a chance at AL MVP.
With the exact same number of at bats as Aaron Judge, Ohtani has:
23 less HRs, 35 less RBIs, 45 less points on his Avg., 36 less runs scored, also far behind Judge in too many more categories to mention, and........
with regard to pitching.......wait for it.......HE'S NOT EVEN GOING TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNG!!!
@nam812 said:
Here is my last word to the guys misguidedly thinking Ohtani has a chance at AL MVP.
With the exact same number of at bats as Aaron Judge, Ohtani has:
23 less HRs, 35 less RBIs, 45 less points on his Avg., 36 less runs scored, also far behind Judge in too many more categories to mention, and........
with regard to pitching.......wait for it.......HE'S NOT EVEN GOING TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNG!!!
oh my.
rbi and runs scored. those are team-dependent metrics. what do they have to do with comparing two individual players?
with regard to pitching, Ohtani is a top 5 starter in the AL. he is having a dominating season on the mound.
Wait, does he not have enough "wins" for you?!?!?!?
I already mentioned that Ohtani is worth about 2/3rds of Judges offensive value. that has been conceded. you have not addressed the extra roster spot Ohtani allows that judge cant touch.
Oh, you are probably now going to start talking about the gold glove Judge will win this year that he so richly deserves for his stellar play...
@brad31 said:
The Yankees are 6 games up with 20 games left. How meaningful is each game now? They have a 98.8% chance to win the division. If they go a mere 10-10 - Toronto has to go 16-4 to catch them.
In the last 30 the Yankees have gone 15-15 and are still 6 games up with a 98.8% chance to win the division. I could argue with the Yanks huge league the second half has made for largely meaningless games.
The MVP should go to the best player.
Without Judge they no longer in 1st. they are behindboth Toronto and Tampa
Yankees are injury riddled and Holmes does his very best, often succeeding, to give up any game in which they have the lead. April-Late June aside this is a middling team riding on Judge's back. I'm a fan but will be totally shocked if they make it out of the first round.
MVP historically does always not go the the "best player" it goes to the most valuable. However with anti NY BIAS' it would not surprise me if Ohtani get it. But to be clear helping your team to a 4th place finish in 5 team division without even sniffing a wild-card berth is NOTHING TO BE PROUD ABOUT!
BTW w/o Ohtani the Angels probably are still in 4th place in their 5 team division and if not then still very much contending for that worthless position, so how exactly is he valuable not to his collector's but to his team? ?
of course the MVP should go to the best player. by definition, the best player is the most valuable. the award is not the best player on one of the top 6 teams in each league. If that is the case, the award is greatly cheapened. it means the eligible field is only 40% of each league.
again, MVP is not a team award, it is an individual award. That should go to each leagues best player.
@olb31 said:
** He still does commercials, announced monday football for years **and his cards are at the top of the heap. All that for winning the biggest one. I bet Trout would like to win a playoff game, much less the biggest upset in Super Bowl History.
>
>
This is probably the main reason that he's so relevant. He was also a big personality when that didn't really happen in sports then. Similar to Derek Sanderson.
Namath was MVP of the that Super Bowl also. His rookie card is one of the most valuable football cards. Probably top 5.
>
>
Larry Brown, Deion Branch & Mark Rypien also was a Super Bowl MVP. That doesn't make them one of the best to play.
My knock on Namath is his 5 winning seasons and career record of one game under .500. I don't think there are any other QB's (or Pitchers) with a record like that and make the HOF.
Stat wise Namath is pretty much the Nolan Ryan of Football.
What Namath did for the AFL and ultimately the NFL is historic. It was a catalyst in making football the #1 sport in the US for decades.
Leaving stats and pure career performance aside Namath did more for the game than Montana or Brady. Some players simply transcend their game without Michael Jordan (or Brady) like dominance.
I agree with you there, but for me it doesn't make him a HOF'er.
Namath was elected in 3 year of eligibility. Again folks some players transcend the cold stats. IMHO for what Joe did for the game, but lacked in career stats, he should have been a Veteran/Senior election, but in 1985 he received more than enough ballots.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@craig44 said:
........That should go to each leagues best player.
Nope, but thanks for playing. As a parting gift we have some lovely mismatched luggage for you.
OK, I will play. Lets extrapolate your view out to its logical end so you can see how foolish it is.
You apparently believe the MVP award should only go to the best player on a successful team. well, there really is only one successful team at the end of the year isn't there? the world series winning team. all others have failed.
If we play your scenario out to its silly end, there really only needs to be one MVP awarded for all of MLB. the winner of that award would have to be a member of the world series winning team. foolish, right?
are you starting to catch on now?
somehow, along the way, you have confused the regular season awards with the postseason awards. there are MVP awards for the best player on the winning teams. they are called the ALCS/NLDS MVP and the world series MVP.
the regular season awards are for the best player in general. good grief. this should be really easy to understand.
in your scenario, Mike Trout would have never won an MVP award. do you truly think Trout has NEVER deserved an MVP?
@craig44 said:
......there really is only one successful team at the end of the year isn't there?.........
No, there are 12 successful teams (6 in each league), not 1 like you just said. Post season doesn't affect the MVP award so if you don't even know what you're talking about then we're done here.
@craig44 said:
......there really is only one successful team at the end of the year isn't there?.........
No, there are 12 successful teams (6 in each league), not 1 like you just said. Post season doesn't affect the MVP award so if you don't even know what you're talking about then we're done here.
You can have the last word, it's on me.
So before 1969 only the league champ could have the MVP.
@craig44 said:
......there really is only one successful team at the end of the year isn't there?.........
No, there are 12 successful teams (6 in each league), not 1 like you just said. Post season doesn't affect the MVP award so if you don't even know what you're talking about then we're done here.
You can have the last word, it's on me.
wrong, only one team wins the championship. all other teams failed. by definition, they didn't succeed.
@nam812 said:
Here is my last word to the guys misguidedly thinking Ohtani has a chance at AL MVP.
With the exact same number of at bats as Aaron Judge, Ohtani has:
23 less HRs, 35 less RBIs, 45 less points on his Avg., 36 less runs scored, also far behind Judge in too many more categories to mention, and........
with regard to pitching.......wait for it.......HE'S NOT EVEN GOING TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNG!!!
oh my.
rbi and runs scored. those are team-dependent metrics. what do they have to do with comparing two individual players?
with regard to pitching, Ohtani is a top 5 starter in the AL. he is having a dominating season on the mound.
Wait, does he not have enough "wins" for you?!?!?!?
I already mentioned that Ohtani is worth about 2/3rds of Judges offensive value. that has been conceded. you have not addressed the extra roster spot Ohtani allows that judge cant touch.
Oh, you are probably now going to start talking about the gold glove Judge will win this year that he so richly deserves for his stellar play...
YMMV, and I think it almost certainly does, but I don't see great value in enabling a Jo Adell or Aaron Loup to remain on the active roster.
MVP needn't go to a player on the best team, but there should be a lot of weight for playing meaningful games. It's not determinative, but there has to be some weight for a player whose team wouldn't be contending without him over one who's having a great season, but it doesn't really matter to his team.
Ohtani is having a really good year. Probably second best in baseball. Judge is having a better year, and for a team contending for a playoff spot. Adding the Adell/Loup factor doesn't change anything.
By the way, Ohtani is more like 1/3 than 2/3 of Judge at the plate, which is still very good. Also, you've played a tremendous shell game as far as defense is concerned: Judge has 999 innings this year split about 3:2 between indifferent CF and very good RF. Absolutely no question that Ohtani has been much better (and more valuable) when pitching, but that's been only 141 innings. The other 858 equivalent innings, Ohtani has given the Angels absolutely nothing defensively. So on defense Judge is something like 1/4 of Ohtani, far from the "nothing" you suggest.
I do think Judge is currently the MVP and likely to hold on. However, Ohtani was the clear-cut MVP last year when his team was 18 games out. Curious to the must be on a contending team camp - who was your 2021 AL MVP?
One thing this thread makes pretty clear is that MVP means different things to different people.
As a Yankees fan, I don’t think I can be objective. I’ve seen (or listened to) just about every game they’ve played this year.
I do think Ohtani deserves whatever votes he gets but his year this year has not been what he was last year when every bat was must see. He’s a special player - there’s no doubt about it - but if you look at the Yankees lineup for the vast majority of the summer it was unimpressive and he was literally carrying the offense for months at a time. A number of walk off hits and all with the most significant home run hitting season since 1998.
And while it’s not an ironclad reason that “wins” the argument, I’ll close with this - if you were to remove Aaron Judge from this Yankees team, they are probably fighting with Boston and Baltimore for 3rd place instead of fighting with Houston for top seed in the AL.
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Ohtani would have more value if he were in a league with no DH and he was playing the field when not pitching...and batting when he was pitching while everyone else had a bad pitcher being forced to hit.
Universal DH does diminish Ohtani's two way status.
@Centauri said:
The Angels are a bad franchise. Trout and Ohtani are great players. Ted Williams played for crap teams his whole career, but no one thinks he is a scrub because of it.
Dale Murphy was a 2x MVP who played on some of the worst teams in the NL during the 80’s. It’s not always about the best player on the best team.
@Centauri said:
The Angels are a bad franchise. Trout and Ohtani are great players. Ted Williams played for crap teams his whole career, but no one thinks he is a scrub because of it.
Dale Murphy was a 2x MVP who played on some of the worst teams in the NL during the 80’s. It’s not always about the best player on the best team.
Respectfully you are Factually Wrong.
The years Dale won the MVP' the Braves were contending winning teams - he carried them on his back in the 1982 regular season to one Division Championship and NLCS berth and the other they finished second contending for good part of the year.
There have been valid points made for both players.
A general question: if Ohtani is both a top 10 hitters and a top 10 pitcher in a season, but not top three in either, would he still be the MVP in that year by default? Would whether his play got his team in playoff contention matter?
What then to do with the top hitter or pitcher, particularly if that player was key in getting their team into the playoffs?
Regarding defensive stats, I always wonder if they're that meaningful. Unless a player makes a ton of errors, i am unclear as to how a statistic can say a player is above or below average defensively. If you watch every game of a player, I can see where you could potentially say player A doesn't get to as many balls as the other team's guys do, but that is truly subjective, isn't it?
One can only play the balls that are hit to you. I am unclear as to what stat accurately can measure that to the point you can say someone is either above or below average unless you're making a ton of errors.
All of that said, I personally think that Judge's stats relative to the league combined with the team probably winning the division with him clearly leading the way, makes him MVP.
@Centauri said:
The Angels are a bad franchise. Trout and Ohtani are great players. Ted Williams played for crap teams his whole career, but no one thinks he is a scrub because of it.
Dale Murphy was a 2x MVP who played on some of the worst teams in the NL during the 80’s. It’s not always about the best player on the best team.
A better example is Andre Dawson in 1987. A superficially good season for a very bad team. Better to have given the MVP to Sutcliffe if you need to give it to a Cub.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
One thing this thread makes pretty clear is that MVP means different things to different people.
As a Yankees fan, I don’t think I can be objective. I’ve seen (or listened to) just about every game they’ve played this year.
I do think Ohtani deserves whatever votes he gets but his year this year has not been what he was last year when every bat was must see. He’s a special player - there’s no doubt about it - but if you look at the Yankees lineup for the vast majority of the summer it was unimpressive and he was literally carrying the offense for months at a time. A number of walk off hits and all with the most significant home run hitting season since 1998.
And while it’s not an ironclad reason that “wins” the argument, I’ll close with this - if you were to remove Aaron Judge from this Yankees team, they are probably fighting with Boston and Baltimore for 3rd place instead of fighting with Houston for top seed in the AL.
I agree with most of this, but I don't think it's quite as extreme as that (the Red Sox are really bad and also aren't seriously fighting for fourth place) but with Everson Pereira, say, on the active roster instead of Judge (the only outfielder on the Yankees 40 man roster who is neither in New York nor injured) I think they'd essentially be rolling the dice with the Jays, Rays, and Mariners for seeding.
Does anyone actually think that Judge winning the MVP is the absolute wrong choice? Both these guys are having really great seasons and cases can be made for both. I don't have a problem with either one winning.
The award always is skewed toward the player with the superior offensive statistics, unless a pitcher's Cy Young performance for the year is just lightyears ahead of anyone else. Last year, Ohtani's offensive numbers were huge and the pitching was icing on the cake. This year, Judge is having a massive year offensively. The fact that he doesn't pitch should not diminish his qualification for MVP, as compared to Ohtani. Ohtani is a complete unicorn with his two way ability and is deserving of the MVP, but Judge will win and I don't have a problem with that one bit, based on the numbers he's putting up.
I don’t think anyone has a problem with Judge getting some credit for his impact on the Yankees and their chance to get the first round bye being a factor. I still think the Yankees win that division without Judge. Their run differential is 209 - 150 better than 2nd place Toronto. The difference between Judge and whomever got those AB is generously 100 runs - which would put the Yankees with a differential still 40 runs better than anyone else in the AL East.
The problem is when framed that Ohtani is disqualified because his team is out of contention and his stats are belittled because his games are “meaningless” Those that said that have never answered who their 2021 AL MVP was. I suspect it might be because it is clear-cut and a player whose team was 17 games out is who they would vote for.
Again, I do think Judge is this year’s MVP because his offensive production is so far above the rest of the league - but I think it is close and an argument can be made for Ohtani. I would vote Judge 1 and Ohtani 2. If Ohtani rattles off 3 shutouts or gets hot and gets to 40 HRs it might change my mind.
When people believe Judge has carried the Yankees this summer, they realize the Yankees have been under .500 since July right? They are only a playoff team because of how well they played in April, May, and June. Why is Judge being given credit for monster numbers in July, August, and September when it hasn't helped his team win?
Personally, I think it should be a close call between Judge and Ohtani but voters will give the MVP to Judge in a landslide. I don't really see any issue with Judge being the MVP, he is having a historic season and even has a shot at the AL triple crown if he gets his average up a little more. I do believe Ohtani is given a little too much credit for his pitching since what he is doing is so novel.
Ohtani had a shutout going into the 7th last night. Also hit a ball off of the top of the LF wall, which ultimately accounted for the Angels only 2 runs and the win.
Ohtani is now Top 5 in ERA (2.43) and Top 10 in OPS (.892)
It will be foolish to take him for granted and assume he can do this forever. If Ohtani and Judge were traded, the Yankees would be significantly better and the Angels far worse. And yes, that does matter.
@FirstBeard said:
Ohtani had a shutout going into the 7th last night. Also hit a ball off of the top of the LF wall, which ultimately accounted for the Angels only 2 runs and the win.
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Not for nothing, but once again, in a tight game, Trouty struck out in both the 6th and 8th inning. If anyone ever actually watched the Angels' games, they would know it's just been the same song, different verse for years.
Yeah Ohtani should win every year simply because he pitches. Perhaps rename it the Ohtani award and give it to him the first day of the season. Trout of course shoudl come in second every year since he takes all those exciting walks....
Then another award can be created for someone who is actually a big if not the biggest component in helping their team get to the post season.
BTW if Judge was not on the Yankees I'd bet most here would be singing a different tune.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@brad31 said:
Still no answers on who the 2021 AL MVP was if it wasn’t Ohtani. Guess a guy whose team is 17 games out can be the MVP.
Again: Ohtani was significantly better last year. Also, Judge was worse. I think that it's possible for the MVP to come from a team that didn't contend, but there is significant value to playing meaningful innings in August and September. I don't know what that's worth, but it's not nothing.
BTW, based on cWPA Judge should have won last year.
There is one type of MLB Baseball game Ohtani may never be able to "take over" it's called a Post Season Game. But like Trout he'd probably choke in a game for all the marbles.
Not that that matters to Judge and the Yankees as there is no lead they can take in a game that their bullpen won't give up. in the 8th and 9th.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
There is one type of MLB Baseball game Ohtani may never be able to "take over" it's called a Post Season Game. But like Trout he'd probably choke in a game for all the marbles.
Not that that matters to Judge and the Yankees as there is no lead they can take in a game that their bullpen won't give up. in the 8th and 9th.
I’m sure you will be wrong when Ohtani signs with the Yankees or Dodgers, but for the sake of this discussion we’ll pretend you are correct.
There is one type of MLB Baseball game Ohtani may never be able to "take over" it's called a Post Season Game. But like Trout he'd probably choke in a game for all the marbles.
Not that that matters to Judge and the Yankees as there is no lead they can take in a game that their bullpen won't give up. in the 8th and 9th.
I’m sure you will be wrong when Ohtani signs with the Yankees or Dodgers, but for the sake of this discussion we’ll pretend you are correct.
Cheap Hal probably won't even re-sign Judge. My guess is Judge will be on LA or SF most likely the former next year. He has enough class not to stick it to the NYY fans and avoid the NYM and is smart enough to stay away from the Angels.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
There is one type of MLB Baseball game Ohtani may never be able to "take over" it's called a Post Season Game. But like Trout he'd probably choke in a game for all the marbles.
Not that that matters to Judge and the Yankees as there is no lead they can take in a game that their bullpen won't give up. in the 8th and 9th.
I’m sure you will be wrong when Ohtani signs with the Yankees or Dodgers, but for the sake of this discussion we’ll pretend you are correct.
Cheap Hal probably won't even re-sign Judge. My guess is Judge will be on LA or SF most likely the former next year. He has enough class not to stick to the NYY fans and avoid the NYM and is smart enough to stay away from the Angels.
Although it would be awesome to get someone like Judge in the bay area, I would be shocked if Farhan spends the money it will take to get him.
Shohei Ohtani was the best story in baseball last year. He basically won the award by the end of July. And good thing for him because he was not very good in August and September as a hitter and he was not very good as a pitcher in September.
You asked for a reasonable other choice: Vlad Guerrero is very much that. Despite Ohtani’s sensational year, Guerrero was actually better at the plate by some standards and stepped it up in a big way in September.
Again, as previously stated, I also would have cast my vote for Ohtani for MVP last year and he’s not a bad choice this year either; he had an amazing and unique season - now two years in a row. I do think his overall play and situation poses challenges and has some drawbacks that don’t necessarily show up in his stats but probably do show up in the standings.
And I do not think a trade of Judge for Ohtani makes the Yankees better - at all, this year or last.
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Agree Vlad is a reasonable choice - as was Semien - if you truly believe nobody whose team is 17 games out can be the MVP - then that is where you go - but none of the voters went that way and rightfully so. Think Judge wins it this year as he should.
With all the injuries the Yankees had - they may well have been better off with Judge this year during the regular season - and it would be silly for them to trade him for Ohtani and shake up the team - even if they could for the post-season - even if you factored in that Ohtani would be there next year. This is real life - not a an exercise in fantasy sports.
The good thing is we will all likely see Ohtani on a contending team by the end of next season. Will be fun to watch Judge in the post-season again this year, maybe he gets to play in the Series for the first time. Hope we get to see Ohtani in it next year. Baseball is better when its best players get to shine in October.
Comments
Roy Hobbs: Did you ever play ball, Max?
Max Mercy: No, never have.
Stat wise Namath is pretty much the Nolan Ryan of Football.
What Namath did for the AFL and ultimately the NFL is historic. It was a catalyst in making football the #1 sport in the US for decades.
Leaving stats and pure career performance aside Namath did more for the game than Montana or Brady. Some players simply transcend their game without Michael Jordan (or Brady) like dominance.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I agree with you there, but for me it doesn't make him a HOF'er.
I am starting to understand where this is going now. So, If you don't want to use actual data to make your assertions, now we have to have a measuring contest to see which of us played the highest level of baseball to see whose opinion carries more weight.
you do understand how silly that sounds.
right?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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LOL, you crack me up. Judge has a negative dWAR this year which means that he is actually below average defensively in 2022 and he negatively affects the Yankee's win total when he is in the field. That said, I'm ok with calling him "About Average"
Everything else Craig (and I) said makes too much sense and is all indisputable (which is why you don't dispute it). While what Judge is doing offensively this year is incredible, we've all seen 70 home runs in a season before. Juice or no Juice, nobody alive has seen what Ohtani is doing this year.
BTW, I do feel bad for Angels fans. 73% of their 2022 payroll is taken up by 4 players - one is on IR (and sucks) and two are playing for other teams. Not a winning plan.
The Yankees are 6 games up with 20 games left. How meaningful is each game now? They have a 98.8% chance to win the division. If they go a mere 10-10 - Toronto has to go 16-4 to catch them.
In the last 30 the Yankees have gone 15-15 and are still 6 games up with a 98.8% chance to win the division. I could argue with the Yanks huge league the second half has made for largely meaningless games.
The MVP should go to the best player.
Pretty sure the pitcher is trying just as hard to get Ohtani out as he is Judge. Each run they give up could be worth $100K less in arbitration or the difference between AAA and the majors tomorrow or next season.
Each batter is trying their best to get a meaningless hit off of Ohtani when he pitches. If we pretend it is so different to perform only when it “matters” then Ohtani is facing a bunch of players at their absolute “meaningless” peak when he strikes them out, which is more impressive than getting guys out in those meaningful “clutch” situations when all but the very best of all-time choke. Same with when he is hitting - he hit 33 home runs when those crappy pitchers can get the ball exactly where they want in those “pressure less” situations while pulling that extra 2MPH from the tank of meaningless excellence we all have.
All 162 games count for all MLB players. The MVP is a regular season award. All of the when it matters talk makes me laugh.
Without Judge they no longer in 1st. they are behindboth Toronto and Tampa
Yankees are injury riddled and Holmes does his very best, often succeeding, to give up any game in which they have the lead. April-Late June aside this is a middling team riding on Judge's back. I'm a fan but will be totally shocked if they make it out of the first round.
MVP historically does always not go the the "best player" it goes to the most valuable. However with anti NY BIAS' it would not surprise me if Ohtani get it. But to be clear helping your team to a 4th place finish in 5 team division without even sniffing a wild-card berth is NOTHING TO BE PROUD ABOUT!
BTW w/o Ohtani the Angels probably are still in 4th place in their 5 team division and if not then still very much contending for that worthless position, so how exactly is he valuable not to his collector's but to his team? ?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Well if you're ok with it then what is there left to say? Everyone knows you're the final word.
Here is my last word to the guys misguidedly thinking Ohtani has a chance at AL MVP.
With the exact same number of at bats as Aaron Judge, Ohtani has:
23 less HRs, 35 less RBIs, 45 less points on his Avg., 36 less runs scored, also far behind Judge in too many more categories to mention, and........
with regard to pitching.......wait for it.......HE'S NOT EVEN GOING TO WIN THE AL CY YOUNG!!!
@nam812
@craig44
@1all
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oh my.
rbi and runs scored. those are team-dependent metrics. what do they have to do with comparing two individual players?
with regard to pitching, Ohtani is a top 5 starter in the AL. he is having a dominating season on the mound.
Wait, does he not have enough "wins" for you?!?!?!?
I already mentioned that Ohtani is worth about 2/3rds of Judges offensive value. that has been conceded. you have not addressed the extra roster spot Ohtani allows that judge cant touch.
Oh, you are probably now going to start talking about the gold glove Judge will win this year that he so richly deserves for his stellar play...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
of course the MVP should go to the best player. by definition, the best player is the most valuable. the award is not the best player on one of the top 6 teams in each league. If that is the case, the award is greatly cheapened. it means the eligible field is only 40% of each league.
again, MVP is not a team award, it is an individual award. That should go to each leagues best player.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Nope, but thanks for playing. As a parting gift we have some lovely mismatched luggage for you.
Namath was elected in 3 year of eligibility. Again folks some players transcend the cold stats. IMHO for what Joe did for the game, but lacked in career stats, he should have been a Veteran/Senior election, but in 1985 he received more than enough ballots.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
OK, I will play. Lets extrapolate your view out to its logical end so you can see how foolish it is.
You apparently believe the MVP award should only go to the best player on a successful team. well, there really is only one successful team at the end of the year isn't there? the world series winning team. all others have failed.
If we play your scenario out to its silly end, there really only needs to be one MVP awarded for all of MLB. the winner of that award would have to be a member of the world series winning team. foolish, right?
are you starting to catch on now?
somehow, along the way, you have confused the regular season awards with the postseason awards. there are MVP awards for the best player on the winning teams. they are called the ALCS/NLDS MVP and the world series MVP.
the regular season awards are for the best player in general. good grief. this should be really easy to understand.
in your scenario, Mike Trout would have never won an MVP award. do you truly think Trout has NEVER deserved an MVP?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, there are 12 successful teams (6 in each league), not 1 like you just said. Post season doesn't affect the MVP award so if you don't even know what you're talking about then we're done here.
You can have the last word, it's on me.
So before 1969 only the league champ could have the MVP.
wrong, only one team wins the championship. all other teams failed. by definition, they didn't succeed.
so, you dodged the trout question...
did he never deserve to win an MVP award?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
YMMV, and I think it almost certainly does, but I don't see great value in enabling a Jo Adell or Aaron Loup to remain on the active roster.
MVP needn't go to a player on the best team, but there should be a lot of weight for playing meaningful games. It's not determinative, but there has to be some weight for a player whose team wouldn't be contending without him over one who's having a great season, but it doesn't really matter to his team.
Ohtani is having a really good year. Probably second best in baseball. Judge is having a better year, and for a team contending for a playoff spot. Adding the Adell/Loup factor doesn't change anything.
By the way, Ohtani is more like 1/3 than 2/3 of Judge at the plate, which is still very good. Also, you've played a tremendous shell game as far as defense is concerned: Judge has 999 innings this year split about 3:2 between indifferent CF and very good RF. Absolutely no question that Ohtani has been much better (and more valuable) when pitching, but that's been only 141 innings. The other 858 equivalent innings, Ohtani has given the Angels absolutely nothing defensively. So on defense Judge is something like 1/4 of Ohtani, far from the "nothing" you suggest.
I do think Judge is currently the MVP and likely to hold on. However, Ohtani was the clear-cut MVP last year when his team was 18 games out. Curious to the must be on a contending team camp - who was your 2021 AL MVP?
One thing this thread makes pretty clear is that MVP means different things to different people.
As a Yankees fan, I don’t think I can be objective. I’ve seen (or listened to) just about every game they’ve played this year.
I do think Ohtani deserves whatever votes he gets but his year this year has not been what he was last year when every bat was must see. He’s a special player - there’s no doubt about it - but if you look at the Yankees lineup for the vast majority of the summer it was unimpressive and he was literally carrying the offense for months at a time. A number of walk off hits and all with the most significant home run hitting season since 1998.
And while it’s not an ironclad reason that “wins” the argument, I’ll close with this - if you were to remove Aaron Judge from this Yankees team, they are probably fighting with Boston and Baltimore for 3rd place instead of fighting with Houston for top seed in the AL.
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What Ohtani is doing is more historic than what judge is doing.
Ohtani would have more value if he were in a league with no DH and he was playing the field when not pitching...and batting when he was pitching while everyone else had a bad pitcher being forced to hit.
Universal DH does diminish Ohtani's two way status.
Dale Murphy was a 2x MVP who played on some of the worst teams in the NL during the 80’s. It’s not always about the best player on the best team.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Respectfully you are Factually Wrong.
The years Dale won the MVP' the Braves were contending winning teams - he carried them on his back in the 1982 regular season to one Division Championship and NLCS berth and the other they finished second contending for good part of the year.
The facts:
Dale's 1st MVP win:
1982 Atlanta Braves Record: 89-73-0, Finished 1st
Dale's 2nd MVP win:
1983 Atlanta Braves Record: 88-74-0, Finished 2nd
Now what about Zoilo Versalles, Kirk Gibson, Terry Pendleton, Barry Larkin and Marty "Slats" Marion !
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
There have been valid points made for both players.
A general question: if Ohtani is both a top 10 hitters and a top 10 pitcher in a season, but not top three in either, would he still be the MVP in that year by default? Would whether his play got his team in playoff contention matter?
What then to do with the top hitter or pitcher, particularly if that player was key in getting their team into the playoffs?
Regarding defensive stats, I always wonder if they're that meaningful. Unless a player makes a ton of errors, i am unclear as to how a statistic can say a player is above or below average defensively. If you watch every game of a player, I can see where you could potentially say player A doesn't get to as many balls as the other team's guys do, but that is truly subjective, isn't it?
One can only play the balls that are hit to you. I am unclear as to what stat accurately can measure that to the point you can say someone is either above or below average unless you're making a ton of errors.
All of that said, I personally think that Judge's stats relative to the league combined with the team probably winning the division with him clearly leading the way, makes him MVP.
A better example is Andre Dawson in 1987. A superficially good season for a very bad team. Better to have given the MVP to Sutcliffe if you need to give it to a Cub.
I agree with most of this, but I don't think it's quite as extreme as that (the Red Sox are really bad and also aren't seriously fighting for fourth place) but with Everson Pereira, say, on the active roster instead of Judge (the only outfielder on the Yankees 40 man roster who is neither in New York nor injured) I think they'd essentially be rolling the dice with the Jays, Rays, and Mariners for seeding.
Ohtani was much better last year.
Does anyone actually think that Judge winning the MVP is the absolute wrong choice? Both these guys are having really great seasons and cases can be made for both. I don't have a problem with either one winning.
The award always is skewed toward the player with the superior offensive statistics, unless a pitcher's Cy Young performance for the year is just lightyears ahead of anyone else. Last year, Ohtani's offensive numbers were huge and the pitching was icing on the cake. This year, Judge is having a massive year offensively. The fact that he doesn't pitch should not diminish his qualification for MVP, as compared to Ohtani. Ohtani is a complete unicorn with his two way ability and is deserving of the MVP, but Judge will win and I don't have a problem with that one bit, based on the numbers he's putting up.
I don’t think anyone has a problem with Judge getting some credit for his impact on the Yankees and their chance to get the first round bye being a factor. I still think the Yankees win that division without Judge. Their run differential is 209 - 150 better than 2nd place Toronto. The difference between Judge and whomever got those AB is generously 100 runs - which would put the Yankees with a differential still 40 runs better than anyone else in the AL East.
The problem is when framed that Ohtani is disqualified because his team is out of contention and his stats are belittled because his games are “meaningless” Those that said that have never answered who their 2021 AL MVP was. I suspect it might be because it is clear-cut and a player whose team was 17 games out is who they would vote for.
Again, I do think Judge is this year’s MVP because his offensive production is so far above the rest of the league - but I think it is close and an argument can be made for Ohtani. I would vote Judge 1 and Ohtani 2. If Ohtani rattles off 3 shutouts or gets hot and gets to 40 HRs it might change my mind.
When people believe Judge has carried the Yankees this summer, they realize the Yankees have been under .500 since July right? They are only a playoff team because of how well they played in April, May, and June. Why is Judge being given credit for monster numbers in July, August, and September when it hasn't helped his team win?
Personally, I think it should be a close call between Judge and Ohtani but voters will give the MVP to Judge in a landslide. I don't really see any issue with Judge being the MVP, he is having a historic season and even has a shot at the AL triple crown if he gets his average up a little more. I do believe Ohtani is given a little too much credit for his pitching since what he is doing is so novel.
Robb
Ohtani had a shutout going into the 7th last night. Also hit a ball off of the top of the LF wall, which ultimately accounted for the Angels only 2 runs and the win.
Ohtani is now Top 5 in ERA (2.43) and Top 10 in OPS (.892)
It will be foolish to take him for granted and assume he can do this forever. If Ohtani and Judge were traded, the Yankees would be significantly better and the Angels far worse. And yes, that does matter.
.
Not for nothing, but once again, in a tight game, Trouty struck out in both the 6th and 8th inning. If anyone ever actually watched the Angels' games, they would know it's just been the same song, different verse for years.
Good point. Trout may have fouled one back to the screen (forgot which AB that was), otherwise he was not even close on those Ks.
I also saw that Ohtani has 6 triples. He only needs one more to lead the league. Dude is a robot.
Still no answers on who the 2021 AL MVP was if it wasn’t Ohtani. Guess a guy whose team is 17 games out can be the MVP.
While I would have cast my vote for Ohtani last year, I believe Vladimir Guerrero Jr. would have been a fine choice, too.
Kid was a beast last year.
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Your logic is flawless. You are 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% correct and no need for you to ask again.
BTW; Vlad
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Yeah Ohtani should win every year simply because he pitches. Perhaps rename it the Ohtani award and give it to him the first day of the season. Trout of course shoudl come in second every year since he takes all those exciting walks....
Then another award can be created for someone who is actually a big if not the biggest component in helping their team get to the post season.
BTW if Judge was not on the Yankees I'd bet most here would be singing a different tune.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Again: Ohtani was significantly better last year. Also, Judge was worse. I think that it's possible for the MVP to come from a team that didn't contend, but there is significant value to playing meaningful innings in August and September. I don't know what that's worth, but it's not nothing.
BTW, based on cWPA Judge should have won last year.
Also, Phil Nevin endorses Ohtani, https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10049344-angels-manager-nevin-i-love-aaron-judge-like-a-son-but-shohei-ohtani-is-mlb-mvp but he sort of has to.
There is one type of MLB Baseball game Ohtani may never be able to "take over" it's called a Post Season Game. But like Trout he'd probably choke in a game for all the marbles.
Not that that matters to Judge and the Yankees as there is no lead they can take in a game that their bullpen won't give up. in the 8th and 9th.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I’m sure you will be wrong when Ohtani signs with the Yankees or Dodgers, but for the sake of this discussion we’ll pretend you are correct.
Well if you were voters he would have his first and only 2 first place votes.
I would vote for Judge this year. But Ohtani was a no-brainer last year.
Cheap Hal probably won't even re-sign Judge. My guess is Judge will be on LA or SF most likely the former next year. He has enough class not to stick it to the NYY fans and avoid the NYM and is smart enough to stay away from the Angels.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Although it would be awesome to get someone like Judge in the bay area, I would be shocked if Farhan spends the money it will take to get him.
@brad31
Shohei Ohtani was the best story in baseball last year. He basically won the award by the end of July. And good thing for him because he was not very good in August and September as a hitter and he was not very good as a pitcher in September.
You asked for a reasonable other choice: Vlad Guerrero is very much that. Despite Ohtani’s sensational year, Guerrero was actually better at the plate by some standards and stepped it up in a big way in September.
Again, as previously stated, I also would have cast my vote for Ohtani for MVP last year and he’s not a bad choice this year either; he had an amazing and unique season - now two years in a row. I do think his overall play and situation poses challenges and has some drawbacks that don’t necessarily show up in his stats but probably do show up in the standings.
And I do not think a trade of Judge for Ohtani makes the Yankees better - at all, this year or last.
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Agree Vlad is a reasonable choice - as was Semien - if you truly believe nobody whose team is 17 games out can be the MVP - then that is where you go - but none of the voters went that way and rightfully so. Think Judge wins it this year as he should.
With all the injuries the Yankees had - they may well have been better off with Judge this year during the regular season - and it would be silly for them to trade him for Ohtani and shake up the team - even if they could for the post-season - even if you factored in that Ohtani would be there next year. This is real life - not a an exercise in fantasy sports.
The good thing is we will all likely see Ohtani on a contending team by the end of next season. Will be fun to watch Judge in the post-season again this year, maybe he gets to play in the Series for the first time. Hope we get to see Ohtani in it next year. Baseball is better when its best players get to shine in October.
Judge went 4-5, with 2 HR, a double, and a walk. Wow.
Ohtani needs 58 more stolen bases to over take Babe Ruth. He’ll do it in a shorter period of time. He’ll be better pitcher and baserunner.