@IndianaJones said:
Also, thanks brad31 for posting the famous photo of Bobby Hull pitching hay on his cattle ranch in Canada back in 1966, not long after he broke the NHL record for goals scored in one season. I believe that photo first appeared in the major US magazine, NEWSWEEK. Anyone remotely interested in ice hockey, and a whole lot of other people, saw the picture and collectively crashed their chins and dropped their mouths in wonder and awe at how strong Bobby Hull was. The typically large hockey sweater covers up the arsenal, so to speak!
When I saw the pix for the first time, I was at my orthodontist's office for an appointment. I guess you can say it left a lasting impression on this Chicago suburban 11-year old Black Hawk fan. Anyways, thanks again, brad31. -- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
First time I saw it was a signed one at a card show in the 80swhen I was 12 - had the same reaction! Go Hawks!
Glad you mentioned Bobby Hull, I thought it was Mike Webster.
I find it interesting that people take such a hard stance on the late 80's Baseball players. Don't they realize that steriods ran rampant in many of the sports, especially the NFL, since the 70's.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
If they don’t cancel tatie contract and let him back to play, then bonds should be in the hall of fame because the owners don’t care either….let him, Clemens and Rose in….I mean gambling is a cornerstone of the game now and he never bet against his own team….
No... He will be behind Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa ~~~and Bonds will still be King!
@IndianaJones said:
I'm rooting for Aaron Judge; I hope he breaks Roger's record, 'cause he's doing it clean and without taking cheating drugs.
Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa need to admit, as Mark McGwire finally did, that they took PED steroids. The powers that be were sure able to test Olympian "BIG BEN" Johnson after he blew away the 100 meters field in 1988, and strip him of his gold medal, but MLB was feeble and powerless to make Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa be accurately tested. I wonder why? -- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
the reason MLB never tested until the 00s was because it was never collectively bargained into any agreements between the owners and MLBPA.
No... He will be behind Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa ~~~and Bonds will still be King!
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
@IndianaJones said:
Also, thanks brad31 for posting the famous photo of Bobby Hull pitching hay on his cattle ranch in Canada back in 1966, not long after he broke the NHL record for goals scored in one season. I believe that photo first appeared in the major US magazine, NEWSWEEK. Anyone remotely interested in ice hockey, and a whole lot of other people, saw the picture and collectively crashed their chins and dropped their mouths in wonder and awe at how strong Bobby Hull was. The typically large hockey sweater covers up the arsenal, so to speak!
When I saw the pix for the first time, I was at my orthodontist's office for an appointment. I guess you can say it left a lasting impression on this Chicago suburban 11-year old Black Hawk fan. Anyways, thanks again, brad31. -- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
First time I saw it was a signed one at a card show in the 80swhen I was 12 - had the same reaction! Go Hawks!
Glad you mentioned Bobby Hull, I thought it was Mike Webster.
I find it interesting that people take such a hard stance on the late 80's Baseball players. Don't they realize that steriods ran rampant in many of the sports, especially the NFL, since the 70's.
Pretty easy to understand when the steroid use in football was mostly lineman. Baseball however has seen a lot (all?) of the Home Run records obliterated and every one by a juicer.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
>
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
>
>
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
>
>
Piazza never tested positive did he?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
>
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
>
>
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
>
>
Piazza never tested positive did he?
Piazza admitted to using Andro, which was perfectly fine to use circa 1998, but was added to the banned list later after he retired.
No... He will be behind Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa ~~~and Bonds will still be King!
To add, Fay Vincent sent his famous "memo" to MLB teams regarding Steroids, but it in no way added Steroids to the banned list or made them against the rules. He said so himself in interviews. The official policies were made in 05 and 11.
I am not an expert on Bonds case, but I believe he admitted to using the "cream and clear" during the 2003 season. That would place him before the 05 deadline. seems like an open and shut case.
@IndianaJones said:
Also, thanks brad31 for posting the famous photo of Bobby Hull pitching hay on his cattle ranch in Canada back in 1966, not long after he broke the NHL record for goals scored in one season. I believe that photo first appeared in the major US magazine, NEWSWEEK. Anyone remotely interested in ice hockey, and a whole lot of other people, saw the picture and collectively crashed their chins and dropped their mouths in wonder and awe at how strong Bobby Hull was. The typically large hockey sweater covers up the arsenal, so to speak!
When I saw the pix for the first time, I was at my orthodontist's office for an appointment. I guess you can say it left a lasting impression on this Chicago suburban 11-year old Black Hawk fan. Anyways, thanks again, brad31. -- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
First time I saw it was a signed one at a card show in the 80swhen I was 12 - had the same reaction! Go Hawks!
Glad you mentioned Bobby Hull, I thought it was Mike Webster.
I find it interesting that people take such a hard stance on the late 80's Baseball players. Don't they realize that steriods ran rampant in many of the sports, especially the NFL, since the 70's.
Pretty easy to understand when the steroid use in football was mostly lineman. Baseball however has seen a lot (all?) of the Home Run records obliterated and every one by a juicer.
Then don't give them the homerun records. It shouldn't stop them from entering the HOF. Even without inflated stats Bonds was going to the HOF.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@craig44 said:
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
>
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
>
>
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
>
>
Piazza never tested positive did he?
Piazza admitted to using Andro, which was perfectly fine to use circa 1998, but was added to the banned list later after he retired.
Yes I got that. I don't remember him ever failing a test. I disregard the Andro comment, McGwire tried to pawn off his steroid use by claiming it was Andro, when it's obvious he was injecting steroids.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
No... He will be behind Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa ~~~and Bonds will still be King!
@JoeBanzai said:
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
"My back hurts" is a recognized medical condition.
Then don't give them the homerun records. It shouldn't stop them from entering the HOF. Even without inflated stats Bonds was going to the HOF.
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No one disputes Bonds was a great player before he became Mr Potato Head, but he wasn't the slugger he became by cheating. Had he stayed clean, he would be rated by all as an all time great, maybe the GOAT, but people that believe in integrity and sportsmanship do not consider him as anything but a freak.
If it were up to me, he would not get credit for the record, along with any records "earned" by Sosa, McGwire etc.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
>
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
>
>
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
>
>
Piazza never tested positive did he?
Piazza admitted to using Andro, which was perfectly fine to use circa 1998, but was added to the banned list later after he retired.
Yes I got that. I don't remember him ever failing a test. I disregard the Andro comment, McGwire tried to pawn off his steroid use by claiming it was Andro, when it's obvious he was injecting steroids.
As I recall, McGwire admited to using Andro (it was plainly in sight in his locker) he also admitted to steroid use after he retired. I just checked his admission quotes and I didnt see anyplace where he qualified his admission of using Steroids by claiming it was Andro. He seemed pretty straight forward in admitting they were anabolic steroids. maybe I missed a quote?
@craig44 said:
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
>
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
>
>
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
>
>
Piazza never tested positive did he?
Piazza admitted to using Andro, which was perfectly fine to use circa 1998, but was added to the banned list later after he retired.
Yes I got that. I don't remember him ever failing a test. I disregard the Andro comment, McGwire tried to pawn off his steroid use by claiming it was Andro, when it's obvious he was injecting steroids.
As I recall, McGwire admitted to using Andro (it was plainly in sight in his locker) he also admitted to steroid use after he retired. I just checked his admission quotes and I didn't see anyplace where he qualified his admission of using Steroids by claiming it was Andro. He seemed pretty straight forward in admitting they were anabolic steroids. maybe I missed a quote?
Yes, he had Andro in plain view in his locker, I can't remember a direct quote from him, but it was very clever to leave it out in the open.
I read Canseco's books and think he was telling the truth when he revealed his, and others, steroid use. Pretty much everyone he says he had knowledge of using ended up being proven users, except possibly Ivan Rodriguez.
I'll ask you for a third time; did Piazza ever fail a test? I didn't think so, but am not sure.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
>
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
>
>
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
>
>
Piazza never tested positive did he?
Piazza admitted to using Andro, which was perfectly fine to use circa 1998, but was added to the banned list later after he retired.
Yes I got that. I don't remember him ever failing a test. I disregard the Andro comment, McGwire tried to pawn off his steroid use by claiming it was Andro, when it's obvious he was injecting steroids.
As I recall, McGwire admitted to using Andro (it was plainly in sight in his locker) he also admitted to steroid use after he retired. I just checked his admission quotes and I didn't see anyplace where he qualified his admission of using Steroids by claiming it was Andro. He seemed pretty straight forward in admitting they were anabolic steroids. maybe I missed a quote?
Yes, he had Andro in plain view in his locker, I can't remember a direct quote from him, but it was very clever to leave it out in the open.
I read Canseco's books and think he was telling the truth when he revealed his, and others, steroid use. Pretty much everyone he says he had knowledge of using ended up being proven users, except possibly Ivan Rodriguez.
I'll ask you for a third time; did Piazza ever fail a test? I didn't think so, but am not sure.
sorry, I guess I missed you asking the first 2 times. to my knowledge, Piazza never failed a PED test. He did admit to Andro, which is a steroid.
"Q: In your expert opinion, should Androstenedione be known as a supplement or a drug, a steroid?
Wadler: Androstenedione is a steroid, always was a steroid, always will be a steroid and should be treated with utmost respect and as a drug and not as a dietary supplement."
Wadler is Dr. Gary Wadler, a New York sports physician and a consultant to the U.S. Department of Justice on anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse.
I am not 100% on Cansecos word. he was correct in many instances though.
@JoeBanzai said:
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
"My back hurts" is a recognized medical condition.
Sad but true and it meant $$$'s for every "pain" mgmt center in the USA. Things are changing but too little too late for a family member I lost.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@craig44 said:
To add, Fay Vincent sent his famous "memo" to MLB teams regarding Steroids, but it in no way added Steroids to the banned list or made them against the rules. He said so himself in interviews. The official policies were made in 05 and 11.
I am not an expert on Bonds case, but I believe he admitted to using the "cream and clear" during the 2003 season. That would place him before the 05 deadline. seems like an open and shut case.
Craig, can you post the memo that Fay Vincent wrote about human trafficking from Indonesia to Ukraine? If he didn't send the memo....then there can be no laws broken and therefore legal. Is this truly the type of argument you are making? Craig, you are seriously confusing rules/policies/memorandums vs LAWS. Everyone knows they didn't test for hardly anything at one point. Of course the Union did not want testing when many were doing illegal substances.
No... He will be behind Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa ~~~and Bonds will still be King!
Steroids are legal as long as they're prescribed by a doctor. I believe the prescription makes sale and possession legal. I don't think you can get a prescription for human trafficking. Could be wrong.
Back when pot got legalized in California, at first it was only medical pot. You had to get a card from a doctor. Pot shops had doctors renting spaces next door so they could charge for prescriptions. Balco was a similar operation. Doctors charging for steroid prescriptions. That's my understanding anyway.
@craig44 said:
To add, Fay Vincent sent his famous "memo" to MLB teams regarding Steroids, but it in no way added Steroids to the banned list or made them against the rules. He said so himself in interviews. The official policies were made in 05 and 11.
I am not an expert on Bonds case, but I believe he admitted to using the "cream and clear" during the 2003 season. That would place him before the 05 deadline. seems like an open and shut case.
Craig, can you post the memo that Fay Vincent wrote about human trafficking from Indonesia to Ukraine? If he didn't send the memo....then there can be no laws broken and therefore legal. Is this truly the type of argument you are making? Craig, you are seriously confusing rules/policies/memorandums vs LAWS. Everyone knows they didn't test for hardly anything at one point. Of course the Union did not want testing when many were doing illegal substances.
whats your point? there are banned substances lists for all major sports. steroids and hgh didn't happen to make it to mlbs until 05 and 11.
you can use your strawman human trafficking argument all you want, but it doesn't add steroids to mlbs banned substance list in 98 or 99 or 00...
whats your point? there are banned substances lists for all major sports. steroids and hgh didn't happen to make it to mlbs until 05 and 11.
you can use your strawman human trafficking argument all you want, but it doesn't add steroids to mlbs banned substance list in 98 or 99 or 00...
Maybe the point he is trying to make is that even if MLB didn’t ban the substance, federal law did and it is a form of cheating to obtain an advantage you can only obtain by breaking the law. You shouldn’t have to risk jail time to even the playing field. Maybe a lot of these guys got prescriptions but I believe it is also a crime to provide false or misleading statements to a doctor to obtain a controlled substance. And if they didn’t lie and the player and the doctor both understood that the substance was not medically necessary, they probably both committed a crime.
whats your point? there are banned substances lists for all major sports. steroids and hgh didn't happen to make it to mlbs until 05 and 11.
you can use your strawman human trafficking argument all you want, but it doesn't add steroids to mlbs banned substance list in 98 or 99 or 00...
Maybe the point he is trying to make is that even if MLB didn’t ban the substance, federal law did and it is a form of cheating to obtain an advantage you can only obtain by breaking the law. You shouldn’t have to risk jail time to even the playing field. Maybe a lot of these guys got prescriptions but I believe it is also a crime to provide false or misleading statements to a doctor to obtain a controlled substance. And if they didn’t lie and the player and the doctor both understood that the substance was not medically necessary, they probably both committed a crime.
I have mentioned this to Craig on several occasions, but he doesn't agree.
If you have to commit a crime in obtaining illegal drugs, it's NOT OK just because there is no specific mention of that drug in the labor agreement. You can't renegotiate the agreement every time a drug becomes illegal. It was illegal to take steroids in 1990, that's about when Vincent informed the players they couldn't use them. At that point, the cat was out of the bag. Vincent may have backpedaled on the memo, but he was right the first time.
Instead of going through all the BS, the MLB should have informed the DEA that their players needed to be charged with drug possession and go to jail.
Would that have been better?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
In competitive games generally if you're not the one doing the abusive stuff, it's getting done to you by someone else.
Even if Bonds was aware that what he was using was illegal, it was likely nothing that the next guy wasn't doing. One of the substances Bonds is accused of using is a drug that masks steroids when tested. This is tech from 25-30 years ago. if you watch the video earlier in this thread, the video pretty much says that this stuff is mostly undetectable these days. And that very little testing is being done now in MLB. The only reason Tatis tested positive is because he was using drug technology from 30-40 years ago that can be bought over the counter in his home country. I suggest you watch the video posted earlier.
This whole home run situation in MLB is frustrating me. I'd have an easier time believing Judge was legit if he weren't a Yankee. And if anybody else were close to his numbers. I keep seeing articles that justify his numbers for such and such reason. But, he is an outlier. At least when McGwire was doing it, Sosa was too. I don't want to read about how great Judge is for the rest of my life knowing guys are probably throwing him HRs on purpose.
Unfortunately, with all the controversies over the last 15 years about the use/non-use of PED's and their affect on sport records, my interest in those records has dwindled down to just about nil. I suppose it would be a plus for Judge personally to have a HR Yankee record, provided it is attained "cleanly".
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
whats your point? there are banned substances lists for all major sports. steroids and hgh didn't happen to make it to mlbs until 05 and 11.
you can use your strawman human trafficking argument all you want, but it doesn't add steroids to mlbs banned substance list in 98 or 99 or 00...
Maybe the point he is trying to make is that even if MLB didn’t ban the substance, federal law did and it is a form of cheating to obtain an advantage you can only obtain by breaking the law. You shouldn’t have to risk jail time to even the playing field. Maybe a lot of these guys got prescriptions but I believe it is also a crime to provide false or misleading statements to a doctor to obtain a controlled substance. And if they didn’t lie and the player and the doctor both understood that the substance was not medically necessary, they probably both committed a crime.
there is a difference between illegal and against the rules of a professional sport. If a player was caught with an illegal drug, prosecuted and found guilty, the criminal justice system would take care of the issue. It was out of the purview of MLB to ban/suspend players for any drug that was not on the banned list. until 2005, Steroids were not on the banned list. So yes, while there may have been legal ramifications for players, had they been caught and convicted, there were no ramifications from MLB as steroids had not been collectively bargained onto the banned list yet.
In competitive games generally if you're not the one doing the abusive stuff, it's getting done to you by someone else.
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It would seem a lot less players are using now, so that comment is just not true.
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Even if Bonds was aware that what he was using was illegal, it was likely nothing that the next guy wasn't doing. One of the substances Bonds is accused of using is a drug that masks steroids when tested. This is tech from 25-30 years ago. if you watch the video earlier in this thread, the video pretty much says that this stuff is mostly undetectable these days. And that very little testing is being done now in MLB. The only reason Tatis tested positive is because he was using drug technology from 30-40 years ago that can be bought over the counter in his home country. I suggest you watch the video posted earlier.
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IF Bonds was aware, REALLY?
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This whole home run situation in MLB is frustrating me. I'd have an easier time believing Judge was legit if he weren't a Yankee. And if anybody else were close to his numbers. I keep seeing articles that justify his numbers for such and such reason. But, he is an outlier. At least when McGwire was doing it, Sosa was too. I don't want to read about how great Judge is for the rest of my life knowing guys are probably throwing him HRs on purpose.
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I really don't care very much, but Judge just looks like a very big person with muscle, Bonds and McGwire went through a complete body transformation.
Sorry you don't want to hear about Judge, I am sick to death of hearing about Tom Brady.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
whats your point? there are banned substances lists for all major sports. steroids and hgh didn't happen to make it to mlbs until 05 and 11.
you can use your strawman human trafficking argument all you want, but it doesn't add steroids to mlbs banned substance list in 98 or 99 or 00...
Maybe the point he is trying to make is that even if MLB didn’t ban the substance, federal law did and it is a form of cheating to obtain an advantage you can only obtain by breaking the law. You shouldn’t have to risk jail time to even the playing field. Maybe a lot of these guys got prescriptions but I believe it is also a crime to provide false or misleading statements to a doctor to obtain a controlled substance. And if they didn’t lie and the player and the doctor both understood that the substance was not medically necessary, they probably both committed a crime.
I have mentioned this to Craig on several occasions, but he doesn't agree.
If you have to commit a crime in obtaining illegal drugs, it's NOT OK just because there is no specific mention of that drug in the labor agreement. You can't renegotiate the agreement every time a drug becomes illegal. It was illegal to take steroids in 1990, that's about when Vincent informed the players they couldn't use them. At that point, the cat was out of the bag. Vincent may have backpedaled on the memo, but he was right the first time.
Instead of going through all the BS, the MLB should have informed the DEA that their players needed to be charged with drug possession and go to jail.
Would that have been better?
I dont necessarily agree that steroids should be allowed in sports, but it is a simple fact that while it may have been illegal to consume steroids without a dr prescription, there was no rule against it in MLB. they were not on the banned list of drugs, and there were no penalties. If a player wanted to risk the legal ramifications, that was his choice, but they just simply were not on the banned list.
I mean, we cant move the goal posts. they are going to be voting on some rule changes in MLB today I believe. Say they decide to outlaw shifts, which is on the docket. Would that mean we now need to go back and check the replays from the last 10 years and give players credit for the hits they lost due to shifts that were perfectly within the framework of the rules at that time? should we adjust their batting averages and likewise, adjust the ERA and other statistics of all the pitchers who benefitted from the shifts?
of course not. Rules change, the banned substance list changes. there have been substances players have taken in the past (steroids) that are on the current banned list, but weren't before. you can bet there are supplements and substances that current players are ingesting that will make it onto banned lists in the future. those players should not be punished for doing something that was not against the rules when they were doing it.
I dont necessarily agree that steroids should be allowed in sports, but it is a simple fact that while it may have been illegal to consume steroids without a dr prescription, there was no rule against it in MLB. they were not on the banned list of drugs, and there were no penalties. If a player wanted to risk the legal ramifications, that was his choice, but they just simply were not on the banned list.
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You are 100% correct that they were not on the banned list, but getting them on the list would have probably cost us a strike or lockout. I guess MLB should have bitten the bullet and said "These drugs need to be added to the list or we're not playing baseball until they are". But, they did not, and gladly looked the other way when it became profitable to ignore the issue. I say, what's wrong is wrong and using a technicality to do something wrong is still wrong.
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I mean, we cant move the goal posts. they are going to be voting on some rule changes in MLB today I believe. Say they decide to outlaw shifts, which is on the docket. Would that mean we now need to go back and check the replays from the last 10 years and give players credit for the hits they lost due to shifts that were perfectly within the framework of the rules at that time? should we adjust their batting averages and likewise, adjust the ERA and other statistics of all the pitchers who benefitted from the shifts?
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An occasional shift is bad enough, but shifting on every batter? Guys like Carew would have hit .600 against the shift. Not quite the same as steroids though. The shifts are there for all to see and take advantage of, if you have the skill. Steroids were done in private and denied by all the users because they knew they were WRONG, otherwise why lie about it? "Sure, I'm injecting Stanozolol and Deca-Durabolin, so what, it's not on the banned list". No, they knew they had to lie about it.
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of course not. Rules change, the banned substance list changes. there have been substances players have taken in the past (steroids) that are on the current banned list, but weren't before. you can bet there are supplements and substances that current players are ingesting that will make it onto banned lists in the future. those players should not be punished for doing something that was not against the rules when they were doing it.
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If a Federal law comes into effect banning/controlling an existing supplement/drug it should be (and should have been) put immediately on the banned list without having to renegotiate the entire collective bargaining agreement. That way you don't have to worry about "punishing" someone retroactively.
Hopefully congress will pass a law making the shift illegal!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
You are 100% correct that they were not on the banned list, but getting them on the list would have probably cost us a strike or lockout. I guess MLB should have bitten the bullet and said "These drugs need to be added to the list or we're not playing baseball until they are". But, they did not, and gladly looked the other way when it became profitable to ignore the issue. I say, what's wrong is wrong and using a technicality to do something wrong is still wrong.
You are right, they probably should have done what it took to get Steroids on the banned list. But... they didnt. you are putting morality on the rule/list. It technically was not "wrong" to use steroids before 2005. there was no rule/penalty against it. is it "wrong" to have used the shift in the past if they change the rule today? was it "wrong" that they used a 15" mound pre 1969? I am sure there are 100 more examples of rule changes i could use as examples. I dont see it having anything to do with right or wrong. if what you are doing is not against the rules, go ahead, it isnt "wrong" Is it "wrong" for me to use every deduction/credit/advantage on my taxes as long as it is in the framework of the tax code? if it becomes a problem or effects the balance of play, they will adjust those rules like they have always done and ended up doing with steroids. however, it doesnt mean players who played under the old rules be denigrated for MLB not having current rules in place.
An occasional shift is bad enough, but shifting on every batter? Guys like Carew would have hit .600 against the shift. Not quite the same as steroids though. The shifts are there for all to see and take advantage of, if you have the skill. Steroids were done in private and denied by all the users because they knew they were WRONG, otherwise why lie about it? "Sure, I'm injecting Stanozolol and Deca-Durabolin, so what, it's not on the banned list". No, they knew they had to lie about it.
I am not sure why they kept steroid use private. probably public perception. to me, that doesnt really matter though. those drugs were not on the banned list. end of story.
If a Federal law comes into effect banning/controlling an existing supplement/drug it should be (and should have been) put immediately on the banned list without having to renegotiate the entire collective bargaining agreement. That way you don't have to worry about "punishing" someone retroactively.
I would tend to agree with you on this statement. That isnt how things work in a collectively bargained entity though.
Hopefully congress will pass a law making the shift illegal!
I actually dont mind the shift. I would love to see more Gwynn, Boggs, Carew type hitters. They would have feasted on the shifts.
We certainly will continue to disagree if you are going to take sportsmanship out of the equation. I guess when all the old timers like me die, no one will care.
When the drug dealers first came up with synthetic cocaine, they claimed successfully that it wasn't illegal because it wasn't actually cocaine. It was still wrong and the government was able to change the laws quickly.
Plus there would seem to be a morals clause in the individual contracts that would cover using illegally obtained substances, either to enhance performance or to just get "high".
We ALL know why the players lied about using steroids, you only need to lie about ANYTHING if you are going to get in trouble for telling the truth.
Any steroid use after 1990 was wrong, end of story.
So, we will never agree on this one. We agree on lots of other stuff though.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
No... He will be behind Bonds, Mcgwire and Sosa ~~~and Bonds will still be King!
@JoeBanzai said:
We certainly will continue to disagree if you are going to take sportsmanship out of the equation. I guess when all the old timers like me die, no one will care.
When the drug dealers first came up with synthetic cocaine, they claimed successfully that it wasn't illegal because it wasn't actually cocaine. It was still wrong and the government was able to change the laws quickly.
Plus there would seem to be a morals clause in the individual contracts that would cover using illegally obtained substances, either to enhance performance or to just get "high".
We ALL know why the players lied about using steroids, you only need to lie about ANYTHING if you are going to get in trouble for telling the truth.
Any steroid use after 1990 was wrong, end of story.
So, we will never agree on this one. We agree on lots of other stuff though.
We do agree on lots!!!
I am curious. Do you consider steroid use before 1990 wrong?
@CardGeek said:
Steroids are legal as long as they're prescribed by a doctor. I believe the prescription makes sale and possession legal. I don't think you can get a prescription for human trafficking. Could be wrong.
Back when pot got legalized in California, at first it was only medical pot. You had to get a card from a doctor. Pot shops had doctors renting spaces next door so they could charge for prescriptions. Balco was a similar operation. Doctors charging for steroid prescriptions. That's my understanding anyway.
pot, I haven't heard that in decades! My mouth is dry, may I please have a pop to quench my cotton mouth!
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Maybe the point he is trying to make is that even if MLB didn’t ban the substance, federal law did and it is a form of cheating to obtain an advantage you can only obtain by breaking the law. You shouldn’t have to risk jail time to even the playing field. Maybe a lot of these guys got prescriptions but I believe it is also a crime to provide false or misleading statements to a doctor to obtain a controlled substance. And if they didn’t lie and the player and the doctor both understood that the substance was not medically necessary, they probably both committed a crime.
there is a difference between illegal and against the rules of a professional sport. If a player was caught with an illegal drug, prosecuted and found guilty, the criminal justice system would take care of the issue. It was out of the purview of MLB to ban/suspend players for any drug that was not on the banned list. until 2005, Steroids were not on the banned list. So yes, while there may have been legal ramifications for players, had they been caught and convicted, there were no ramifications from MLB as steroids had not been collectively bargained onto the banned list yet.
I agree there is a difference between illegal and banned by the MLB but that difference isn’t relevant to my point. My point is that even if doing something wasn’t contrary to MLB policy at the time it is still cheating in a larger sense if it is against the law since many players won’t be willing to break the law and it therefore creates an unfair advantage. If a team murdered all of the pitchers of the other team on the eve of the World Series but didn’t get caught until after they won would you say that they didn’t cheat because murder wasn’t collectively bargained for?
Sorry you don't want to hear about Judge, I am sick to death of hearing about Tom Brady.
I don't like Tom Brady either.
I really hope all the sports betting propositions on the ballot in California don't pass. It seems so obvious that a lot of what happens in sports is fixed. I don't think legalizing betting on sports is good for anybody. I've been playing competitive games for a long time. Collusion is totally a thing. I don't think it's possible to stop. I'd honestly rather see Bonds rub some cream on his arms or whatever and lift a bunch of weights than watch guys get hoisted to stardom playing in fixed games.
pot, I haven't heard that in decades! My mouth is dry, may I please have a pop to quench my cotton mouth!
There are probably 15 pot shops 15 minutes from my house. Probably more. They're everywhere. And there are smoke shops, shops that sell glass and lighters and such, on every other block. Nobody says marijuana. I didn't think legal pot would be like this. Who knows where legal sports betting will go.
I dont think many care that MM and Sosa cheated, watching them go head to head during one season to go after the record together was thrilling as I remember it. They did that all for us! F Barry, he a cheater.
Comments
53 HR's with 28 games left~
Glad you mentioned Bobby Hull, I thought it was Mike Webster.
I find it interesting that people take such a hard stance on the late 80's Baseball players. Don't they realize that steriods ran rampant in many of the sports, especially the NFL, since the 70's.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
If they don’t cancel tatie contract and let him back to play, then bonds should be in the hall of fame because the owners don’t care either….let him, Clemens and Rose in….I mean gambling is a cornerstone of the game now and he never bet against his own team….
the reason MLB never tested until the 00s was because it was never collectively bargained into any agreements between the owners and MLBPA.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
of course Judge will not be the "New" home run king unless he hits 74. it seems quite unlikely at this point.
people seem to forget that Steroids were not banned from use in MLB until 2005. HGH was not banned until 2011. that is when the collectively bargained agreements between MLB and MLBPA went into effect respectively. before then, PED were not against the rules, anymore than any other supplement that could be purchased over the counter.
remember, just because a player uses a supplement that is within the rules at one time and then at a later date the same supplement is considered a PED does not make the player a "cheater" or "dirty" Take the example of Mike Piazza. He admittedly used Andro when it was not on the banned list of MLB. later, after his career ended, Andro was added to the banned list. He is currently a member of the HOF. is he a "cheater"?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Pretty easy to understand when the steroid use in football was mostly lineman. Baseball however has seen a lot (all?) of the Home Run records obliterated and every one by a juicer.
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The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 makes it a criminal
offense for a physician to knowingly distribute human growth hor-
mone (steroids) "for any use in humans other than the treatment of
a disease or other recognized medical condition."
People seem to forget that taking illegal drugs is a crime.
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Piazza never tested positive did he?
Piazza admitted to using Andro, which was perfectly fine to use circa 1998, but was added to the banned list later after he retired.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
To add, Fay Vincent sent his famous "memo" to MLB teams regarding Steroids, but it in no way added Steroids to the banned list or made them against the rules. He said so himself in interviews. The official policies were made in 05 and 11.
I am not an expert on Bonds case, but I believe he admitted to using the "cream and clear" during the 2003 season. That would place him before the 05 deadline. seems like an open and shut case.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Then don't give them the homerun records. It shouldn't stop them from entering the HOF. Even without inflated stats Bonds was going to the HOF.
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If Judge hits 62, he will have both the Yankees and the AL record. Pretty prestigious and no need to pretend he has more.
Yes I got that. I don't remember him ever failing a test. I disregard the Andro comment, McGwire tried to pawn off his steroid use by claiming it was Andro, when it's obvious he was injecting steroids.
"My back hurts" is a recognized medical condition.
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No one disputes Bonds was a great player before he became Mr Potato Head, but he wasn't the slugger he became by cheating. Had he stayed clean, he would be rated by all as an all time great, maybe the GOAT, but people that believe in integrity and sportsmanship do not consider him as anything but a freak.
If it were up to me, he would not get credit for the record, along with any records "earned" by Sosa, McGwire etc.
As I recall, McGwire admited to using Andro (it was plainly in sight in his locker) he also admitted to steroid use after he retired. I just checked his admission quotes and I didnt see anyplace where he qualified his admission of using Steroids by claiming it was Andro. He seemed pretty straight forward in admitting they were anabolic steroids. maybe I missed a quote?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Yes, he had Andro in plain view in his locker, I can't remember a direct quote from him, but it was very clever to leave it out in the open.
I read Canseco's books and think he was telling the truth when he revealed his, and others, steroid use. Pretty much everyone he says he had knowledge of using ended up being proven users, except possibly Ivan Rodriguez.
I'll ask you for a third time; did Piazza ever fail a test? I didn't think so, but am not sure.
sorry, I guess I missed you asking the first 2 times. to my knowledge, Piazza never failed a PED test. He did admit to Andro, which is a steroid.
"Q: In your expert opinion, should Androstenedione be known as a supplement or a drug, a steroid?
Wadler: Androstenedione is a steroid, always was a steroid, always will be a steroid and should be treated with utmost respect and as a drug and not as a dietary supplement."
Wadler is Dr. Gary Wadler, a New York sports physician and a consultant to the U.S. Department of Justice on anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse.
I am not 100% on Cansecos word. he was correct in many instances though.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
55th HR in Game#1 of double header this afternoon for the Big Nasty...... Game #2 on the docket..........
Sad but true and it meant $$$'s for every "pain" mgmt center in the USA. Things are changing but too little too late for a family member I lost.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Nolan Ryan
Rickey Henderson
Cal Ripken
Also never tested positive.
But we have eyeballs and common sense.
Lebron. Brady. Hmmmmmmmm.
Interesting article on Judge and MLB's take on it........
https://www.mlb.com/news/aaron-judge-60-homer-chase-might-be-hardest-yet
Craig, can you post the memo that Fay Vincent wrote about human trafficking from Indonesia to Ukraine? If he didn't send the memo....then there can be no laws broken and therefore legal. Is this truly the type of argument you are making? Craig, you are seriously confusing rules/policies/memorandums vs LAWS. Everyone knows they didn't test for hardly anything at one point. Of course the Union did not want testing when many were doing illegal substances.
Steroids are legal as long as they're prescribed by a doctor. I believe the prescription makes sale and possession legal. I don't think you can get a prescription for human trafficking. Could be wrong.
Back when pot got legalized in California, at first it was only medical pot. You had to get a card from a doctor. Pot shops had doctors renting spaces next door so they could charge for prescriptions. Balco was a similar operation. Doctors charging for steroid prescriptions. That's my understanding anyway.
whats your point? there are banned substances lists for all major sports. steroids and hgh didn't happen to make it to mlbs until 05 and 11.
you can use your strawman human trafficking argument all you want, but it doesn't add steroids to mlbs banned substance list in 98 or 99 or 00...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Maybe the point he is trying to make is that even if MLB didn’t ban the substance, federal law did and it is a form of cheating to obtain an advantage you can only obtain by breaking the law. You shouldn’t have to risk jail time to even the playing field. Maybe a lot of these guys got prescriptions but I believe it is also a crime to provide false or misleading statements to a doctor to obtain a controlled substance. And if they didn’t lie and the player and the doctor both understood that the substance was not medically necessary, they probably both committed a crime.
I have mentioned this to Craig on several occasions, but he doesn't agree.
If you have to commit a crime in obtaining illegal drugs, it's NOT OK just because there is no specific mention of that drug in the labor agreement. You can't renegotiate the agreement every time a drug becomes illegal. It was illegal to take steroids in 1990, that's about when Vincent informed the players they couldn't use them. At that point, the cat was out of the bag. Vincent may have backpedaled on the memo, but he was right the first time.
Instead of going through all the BS, the MLB should have informed the DEA that their players needed to be charged with drug possession and go to jail.
Would that have been better?
The guys went before congress and didn't get charged with anything. Don't you think that if there were a crime they would have been charged?
Taking steroids after 1990 was a crime if not prescribed by a Doctor.
They should have been charged.
Plenty of citizens in jail for possession of a little marijuana, a much less dangerous drug.
I don't know where you're from. In California nobody was getting arrested for a little bit of pot in the 90s or 2000s.
This article about Bonds and steroids is well written and to the point. It was written in 2004. I though it was worth reading.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594
In competitive games generally if you're not the one doing the abusive stuff, it's getting done to you by someone else.
Even if Bonds was aware that what he was using was illegal, it was likely nothing that the next guy wasn't doing. One of the substances Bonds is accused of using is a drug that masks steroids when tested. This is tech from 25-30 years ago. if you watch the video earlier in this thread, the video pretty much says that this stuff is mostly undetectable these days. And that very little testing is being done now in MLB. The only reason Tatis tested positive is because he was using drug technology from 30-40 years ago that can be bought over the counter in his home country. I suggest you watch the video posted earlier.
This whole home run situation in MLB is frustrating me. I'd have an easier time believing Judge was legit if he weren't a Yankee. And if anybody else were close to his numbers. I keep seeing articles that justify his numbers for such and such reason. But, he is an outlier. At least when McGwire was doing it, Sosa was too. I don't want to read about how great Judge is for the rest of my life knowing guys are probably throwing him HRs on purpose.
Unfortunately, with all the controversies over the last 15 years about the use/non-use of PED's and their affect on sport records, my interest in those records has dwindled down to just about nil. I suppose it would be a plus for Judge personally to have a HR Yankee record, provided it is attained "cleanly".
there is a difference between illegal and against the rules of a professional sport. If a player was caught with an illegal drug, prosecuted and found guilty, the criminal justice system would take care of the issue. It was out of the purview of MLB to ban/suspend players for any drug that was not on the banned list. until 2005, Steroids were not on the banned list. So yes, while there may have been legal ramifications for players, had they been caught and convicted, there were no ramifications from MLB as steroids had not been collectively bargained onto the banned list yet.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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So what? Not everyone lives in California.
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It would seem a lot less players are using now, so that comment is just not true.
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IF Bonds was aware, REALLY?
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I really don't care very much, but Judge just looks like a very big person with muscle, Bonds and McGwire went through a complete body transformation.
Sorry you don't want to hear about Judge, I am sick to death of hearing about Tom Brady.
I dont necessarily agree that steroids should be allowed in sports, but it is a simple fact that while it may have been illegal to consume steroids without a dr prescription, there was no rule against it in MLB. they were not on the banned list of drugs, and there were no penalties. If a player wanted to risk the legal ramifications, that was his choice, but they just simply were not on the banned list.
I mean, we cant move the goal posts. they are going to be voting on some rule changes in MLB today I believe. Say they decide to outlaw shifts, which is on the docket. Would that mean we now need to go back and check the replays from the last 10 years and give players credit for the hits they lost due to shifts that were perfectly within the framework of the rules at that time? should we adjust their batting averages and likewise, adjust the ERA and other statistics of all the pitchers who benefitted from the shifts?
of course not. Rules change, the banned substance list changes. there have been substances players have taken in the past (steroids) that are on the current banned list, but weren't before. you can bet there are supplements and substances that current players are ingesting that will make it onto banned lists in the future. those players should not be punished for doing something that was not against the rules when they were doing it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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You are 100% correct that they were not on the banned list, but getting them on the list would have probably cost us a strike or lockout. I guess MLB should have bitten the bullet and said "These drugs need to be added to the list or we're not playing baseball until they are". But, they did not, and gladly looked the other way when it became profitable to ignore the issue. I say, what's wrong is wrong and using a technicality to do something wrong is still wrong.
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An occasional shift is bad enough, but shifting on every batter? Guys like Carew would have hit .600 against the shift. Not quite the same as steroids though. The shifts are there for all to see and take advantage of, if you have the skill. Steroids were done in private and denied by all the users because they knew they were WRONG, otherwise why lie about it? "Sure, I'm injecting Stanozolol and Deca-Durabolin, so what, it's not on the banned list". No, they knew they had to lie about it.
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If a Federal law comes into effect banning/controlling an existing supplement/drug it should be (and should have been) put immediately on the banned list without having to renegotiate the entire collective bargaining agreement. That way you don't have to worry about "punishing" someone retroactively.
Hopefully congress will pass a law making the shift illegal!
double post
Worst post. Keep throwing stones.
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You are right, they probably should have done what it took to get Steroids on the banned list. But... they didnt. you are putting morality on the rule/list. It technically was not "wrong" to use steroids before 2005. there was no rule/penalty against it. is it "wrong" to have used the shift in the past if they change the rule today? was it "wrong" that they used a 15" mound pre 1969? I am sure there are 100 more examples of rule changes i could use as examples. I dont see it having anything to do with right or wrong. if what you are doing is not against the rules, go ahead, it isnt "wrong" Is it "wrong" for me to use every deduction/credit/advantage on my taxes as long as it is in the framework of the tax code? if it becomes a problem or effects the balance of play, they will adjust those rules like they have always done and ended up doing with steroids. however, it doesnt mean players who played under the old rules be denigrated for MLB not having current rules in place.
I am not sure why they kept steroid use private. probably public perception. to me, that doesnt really matter though. those drugs were not on the banned list. end of story.
I would tend to agree with you on this statement. That isnt how things work in a collectively bargained entity though.
I actually dont mind the shift. I would love to see more Gwynn, Boggs, Carew type hitters. They would have feasted on the shifts.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
We certainly will continue to disagree if you are going to take sportsmanship out of the equation. I guess when all the old timers like me die, no one will care.
When the drug dealers first came up with synthetic cocaine, they claimed successfully that it wasn't illegal because it wasn't actually cocaine. It was still wrong and the government was able to change the laws quickly.
Plus there would seem to be a morals clause in the individual contracts that would cover using illegally obtained substances, either to enhance performance or to just get "high".
We ALL know why the players lied about using steroids, you only need to lie about ANYTHING if you are going to get in trouble for telling the truth.
Any steroid use after 1990 was wrong, end of story.
So, we will never agree on this one. We agree on lots of other stuff though.
We do agree on lots!!!
I am curious. Do you consider steroid use before 1990 wrong?
Also, do you consider HGH use before 2011 wrong?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
pot, I haven't heard that in decades!
My mouth is dry, may I please have a pop to quench my cotton mouth!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I agree there is a difference between illegal and banned by the MLB but that difference isn’t relevant to my point. My point is that even if doing something wasn’t contrary to MLB policy at the time it is still cheating in a larger sense if it is against the law since many players won’t be willing to break the law and it therefore creates an unfair advantage. If a team murdered all of the pitchers of the other team on the eve of the World Series but didn’t get caught until after they won would you say that they didn’t cheat because murder wasn’t collectively bargained for?
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I don't like Tom Brady either.
I really hope all the sports betting propositions on the ballot in California don't pass. It seems so obvious that a lot of what happens in sports is fixed. I don't think legalizing betting on sports is good for anybody. I've been playing competitive games for a long time. Collusion is totally a thing. I don't think it's possible to stop. I'd honestly rather see Bonds rub some cream on his arms or whatever and lift a bunch of weights than watch guys get hoisted to stardom playing in fixed games.
There are probably 15 pot shops 15 minutes from my house. Probably more. They're everywhere. And there are smoke shops, shops that sell glass and lighters and such, on every other block. Nobody says marijuana. I didn't think legal pot would be like this. Who knows where legal sports betting will go.
What makes you think they'd be facing shifts?
I guarantee all three guys would have lower numbers playing today than during careers thanks to improved pitching.
I dont think many care that MM and Sosa cheated, watching them go head to head during one season to go after the record together was thrilling as I remember it. They did that all for us! F Barry, he a cheater.
Judge pops #56 vs. the Sox ~
Judge Cracks #57 vs. Sox ......
@ScoobyDoo2 - that Sterling was mine at one time. I sent the card in to get the Auto 10.
@UFFDAH ... i know I recall that convo. with you when I picked it up.... I've got to keep hanging around collectors like you to get some scraps....
@UFFDAH ... some Scooby Snacks....
Almost makes me wish i collected post 1980 cards
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)