Counterfeit Barber Dimes

Wahoo554

Bought a smallish lot of circulated Barber dimes on eBay for typical junk silver going rate. No pics of specific coins being sold. Just pics of a pile of coins they are supposed to come from. Most coins are as expected AG-G worn barber dimes. Two of them stood out as being XF, which was unexpected. Quick study of them shows they are counterfeit. I assume they probably are non-silver. Just curious what’s the point of these kinds of counterfeits? Not sure the seller knows he sold me a couple counterfeits, and I didn’t pay much more than $2 each for them, so not as if he was trying to pass off as better grade examples for higher sale price. Has anybody seen similar counterfeits floating around?

Wahoo554

The remainder of the coins are fine. Here’s a sampling of what they were all expected to look like:

dcarr

Interesting - they appear to be modern. Note how the "1" and "9" in the date are far apart on both. Only the last two digits of the date changed from one to the other.

braddick

They look contemporary to me. That would be great!
If they're modern it is still a neat find for the prices paid.

Wahoo554

@braddick said:
They look contemporary to me. That would be great!
If they're modern it is still a neat find for the prices paid.

What leads you to think they look contemporary? I know literally nothing about counterfeits (though I do have a copy of Bad Metal waiting to be read).

braddick

I could easily be wrong. Simply the "hand-carved dies" look about them. I also have not seen modern replicas like these offered anywhere, and I probably would have at this point. Again, I would quickly change my mind if someone links where these can be purchased in bulk.

JBK

I guessed modern fakes, with what appears to be a struck thru on one obverse.

gumby1234

I have a counterfeit barber half that I picked up as a counterfeit about 30 years ago.

Treashunt

Neat pick ups.

I like them

Walkerguy21D

@dcarr said:
Interesting - they appear to be modern. Note how the "1" and "9" in the date are far apart on both. Only the last two digits of the date changed from one to the other.

I agree, they look a little too good to be contemporary fakes. I say this as I’ve seen a number of contemporary fake walkers from the teens (and own a few study pieces), and they are nowhere near this good.

ricko

Interesting.... Thanks for the excellent pictures. Some points such as the date, eye detail, liberty in the head band stand out as PUP's....Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf

@braddick said:
I could easily be wrong. Simply the "hand-carved dies" look about them. I also have not seen modern replicas like these offered anywhere, and I probably would have at this point. Again, I would quickly change my mind if someone links where these can be purchased in bulk.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800162701163.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.66b51c11NsWG5V&algo_pvid=e737f9fd-20c5-4574-b964-ce05f803f027&algo_exp_id=e737f9fd-20c5-4574-b964-ce05f803f027-1&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"10000001442189583"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!USD!!63.8!!!!!@210318b916571104647605104e847d!10000001442189583!sea

jmlanzaf

@Walkerguy21D said:

@dcarr said:
Interesting - they appear to be modern. Note how the "1" and "9" in the date are far apart on both. Only the last two digits of the date changed from one to the other.

I agree, they look a little too good to be contemporary fakes. I say this as I’ve seen a number of contemporary fake walkers from the teens (and own a few study pieces), and they are nowhere near this good.

Actually there's a series of Barber dime fakes done in silver washed copper that we locally have called the "Rochester fakes". They are early fakes and much better than these. Ironically, to me these look modern simply because they aren't that good.

jmlanzaf

@braddick said:
I could easily be wrong. Simply the "hand-carved dies" look about them. I also have not seen modern replicas like these offered anywhere, and I probably would have at this point. Again, I would quickly change my mind if someone links where these can be purchased in bulk.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800202065197.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.66b51c11NsWG5V&algo_pvid=e737f9fd-20c5-4574-b964-ce05f803f027&algo_exp_id=e737f9fd-20c5-4574-b964-ce05f803f027-2&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"10000001587041006"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!USD!!18.5!!!!!@210318b916571104647605104e847d!10000001587041006!sea

MarkKelley

On the 1916, the 6 and the 9 should look the same, only flipped. On yours, they are completely different fonts. If contemporary, they might be good silver as it was cheap in those days and a profit could be made by passing them at face value. You should weigh them.

davewesen

it is too bad someone cleaned the 1916

take them out of the 2x2s and check the reeding (unless you are thinking of returning the eBay lot)

Wahoo554

@davewesen said:
it is too bad someone cleaned the 1916

take them out of the 2x2s and check the reeding (unless you are thinking of returning the eBay lot)

I’ll take them out of their 2x2’s and take images of the reeding and will weigh them this evening and will share the results.

burfle23

Did a comp of the reverses looking for any common details:

braddick

@jmlanzaf said:

@braddick said:
I could easily be wrong. Simply the "hand-carved dies" look about them. I also have not seen modern replicas like these offered anywhere, and I probably would have at this point. Again, I would quickly change my mind if someone links where these can be purchased in bulk.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800202065197.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.66b51c11NsWG5V&algo_pvid=e737f9fd-20c5-4574-b964-ce05f803f027&algo_exp_id=e737f9fd-20c5-4574-b964-ce05f803f027-2&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"10000001587041006"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!USD!!18.5!!!!!@210318b916571104647605104e847d!10000001587041006!sea

Thank you for providing that link. I have seen these before.
The OP's coins have a different obverse. The common modern fakes actually look slightly better as far as details on the portrait.

Wahoo554

Here are some close up pics of the “1916”. Lots of interesting little anomalies when you study up close.


burfle23

Obverses:

jesbroken

Wow, pathetic attempt at the numerals.
Jim

Elcontador

Drop the fake coins on a concrete floor; the ping will be different than that of a silver coin.

SaorAlba

They have the look of modern Chinese minted fakes in that the numerals are different like a lot of fakes made there.

Wahoo554

So here’s some more information to analyze:

1916 way too light:

It weighs about what you would expect for a fine barber dime:

Here’s a genuine VF Barber dime for comparison:

Now the 1909 counterfeit is surprisingly the right weight:

Here’s an AU Merc for comparison:

And finally here’s a picture of the reeding (sorry, didn’t have my loupe).

Left is the 1909 counterfeit, middle is the 1916 counterfeit and right is the genuine 1906 VF barber.

MedalCollector

@davewesen said:
it is too bad someone cleaned the 1916

take them out of the 2x2s and check the reeding (unless you are thinking of returning the eBay lot)

It likely hasn’t been cleaned, at least not in the traditional sense. It was likely artificially aged in order to appear older than it is. The counterfeiter would have stained or chemically altered the surfaces and then scrubbed the surfaces in order to achieve a look resembling old circulated silver.

When folks transition from the coin world to medals, they will encounter the same thing and mistake it for an improper cleaning. However, sometimes after striking a medal, the maker will apply chemicals to the surface of a medal and then brush the surface to get a “brushed antique” look. So, it’s not really a cleaning, but an as-made surface finish.

pursuitofliberty

They definitely look more modern to me, and artificially aged as @GoldenEgg suggests.

davewesen

interesting, thanks for the close-ups

Namvet69

Very interesting and informative. I guess the sense of accomplishment out ways the illegality. Peace Roy

OAKSTAR

@Wahoo554 said:
Just curious what’s the point of these kinds of counterfeits?

>

Has anybody seen similar counterfeits floating around?

Nice pick up good eye! 👍🏻

No idea regarding the point. 10¢ went much further back then. 😂 The Henning nickel comes to mind.

Here's a really bad fake/counterfeit I found somewhere. It's a cast and I think it's lead. Yours is a little better quality then this one!! 🤣 😂

Wahoo554

@Namvet69 said:
Very interesting and informative. I guess the sense of accomplishment out ways the illegality. Peace Roy

Whose sense of accomplishment? The counterfeiter? These coins are an interesting study for the board, but a problem for consumers as a whole. I could easily see these coins marketed on eBay or elsewhere as XF/AU Barber dimes, and there are many people that would have zero idea they aren’t legit.

mr1931S

They should be punched with a stamp that says "BAD".

Wahoo554

@mr1874 said:
They should be punched with a stamp that says "BAD".

But that would ruin my current eBay listing with them advertised as choice UNC 😉

CaptHenway

Modern, probably Chinese. Not contemporary.

dunkleosteus430

I know that the theory of them being contemporary is dead -- which, by the way, I believe is the case for the dime that @OAKSTAR posted -- but...

@Walkerguy21D said:

@dcarr said:
Interesting - they appear to be modern. Note how the "1" and "9" in the date are far apart on both. Only the last two digits of the date changed from one to the other.

I agree, they look a little too good to be contemporary fakes. I say this as I’ve seen a number of contemporary fake walkers from the teens (and own a few study pieces), and they are nowhere near this good.

I've heard of a contemporary counterfeit seated dollar that was so good, it fooled PCGS (or NGC, I forgot.) Just wanted to share.
The reverses of your dimes actually look pretty convincing to me, but that's probably because I'm not an avid collector of Barber coinage.