Coin goes from blast white to colorful tone while in PCGS holder. . .

gpnyc

How does something like this occur? Top was 2014 Heritage Central States and bottom is current Heritage Central States auction. Wiped before grading? Bad dip?

Dave99B

Dipped, but now toning back to lovely shades of blue and copper. Love it!

Dave

TomB

Likely freshly dipped just before certification in the top images and later an incomplete rinse shows up and the coin is retoning.

coinbuf

Dip residue, the photo looks pretty I wonder if it looks that nice in hand.

scotty4449

If that is from dip residue, is it now AT?

coinbuf

@scotty4449 said:
If that is from dip residue, is it now AT?

In a sense technically yes, but I doubt that if cracked out and submitted raw it would grade AT.

DisneyFan

@coinbuf said:

@scotty4449 said:
If that is from dip residue, is it now AT?

In a sense technically yes, but I doubt that if cracked out and submitted raw it would grade AT.

Unlikely artificial toning will receive a CAC.

BaronVonBaugh

@DisneyFan said:

@coinbuf said:

@scotty4449 said:
If that is from dip residue, is it now AT?

In a sense technically yes, but I doubt that if cracked out and submitted raw it would grade AT.

Unlikely artificial toning will receive a CAC.

It appears to have CAC while it was white. It’s the same number in both photos.

PerryHall

@scotty4449 said:
If that is from dip residue, is it now AT?

The grading services don't care if it's AT or NT as long as it's MA (market acceptable}.

Treashunt

Toning could be environmental

gpnyc

Thanks for all the comments. I think the most likely explanation is dip/bad rinse. It may be pretty now, which is why I was watching it, but what will it look like in another 8 years? To me, that's a big concern.

DelawareDoons

@gpnyc said:
Thanks for all the comments. I think the most likely explanation is dip/bad rinse. It may be pretty now, which is why I was watching it, but what will it look like in another 8 years? To me, that's a big concern.

Will look like a turd in 8 years.

Whoever buys it should 100% get it conserved.

Windycity

Agreed - might not look so nice in 8-10 years. Wouldn't want to be the next buyer.

DelawareDoons

@MarkFeld HA may want to withdraw the lot?

ricko

I would get that conserved if I were interested in acquiring it. Just looks ugly IMO.... Cheers, RickO

logger7

Both coins look nice, but you may lose potential customers with the toning.

I had an early proof set that graded PR65 mostly that would not sell as toned and cac'd. I ran the coins through NGC conservation and got them cac'd again, which they all did. The process was not cheap.

Cougar1978

I think it’s likely environmental toning. Otherwise was not properly rinsed when dipped (residue). Botched dip? It will get darker as time goes on. So 7 yr between both photos.

It’s an interesting example of how a coin can get a sticker then change over time. Move them quickly or else….

Warning to investors: Remember the state of the coin you bought can change over time or could be one somebody dumping off.

Che_Grapes

I didn’t think they could tone in an airtight capsule - I’m shocked at this actually.

DelawareDoons

@Che_Grapes said:
I didn’t think they could tone in an airtight capsule - I’m shocked at this actually.

That's a common misconception. Slabs aren't airtight.

Che_Grapes

www.PCGS.com/security

It says the new slabs from 2015 are “virtually airtight”

messydesk

@DelawareDoons said:

@Che_Grapes said:
I didn’t think they could tone in an airtight capsule - I’m shocked at this actually.

That's a common misconception. Slabs aren't airtight.

Nevertheless, from dipped white to this in 7 years in a slab is a bit fast. It does look better today but will probably look like it did before the dip in another 7 years. At least it didn't develop black spots.

MasonG

"Virtually airtight" means "not airtight".

messydesk

This also further makes the case for PCGS taking mug shots of coins in the slabs before they ship so that this kind of thing can be caught for every coin in one of their holders. Of course, when you're running behind schedule isn't the best time to introduce a new step to the process.

gtstang

would seem like the cameo designation likely no longer applies.

lilolme

Going to the HA page (below) for the 2014 auction, the in holder photos for the obv and rev when blown up show that the coin had some haze in the fields (could be left over toning) and some light color that is more apparent toward the rims. Could be it was dipped but not complete and the remaining toning on the coin has toned more over time. But tough call.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-three-cent-silver/1863-2-3cs-pr65-cameo-pcgs-cac/a/1204-3986.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0

FlyingAl

@gtstang said:
would seem like the cameo designation likely no longer applies.

I would disagree. The CAM designation refers to how much frost was imparted from the dies when the coin was struck. No amount of toning could change that amount, although it may dull the brilliance of the mirrors. A lot of CAM coins with toning get the designation because of how CAM is defined.

The only way that toning could change the designation is if it is so dark that the surface becomes monotone and no contrast exists at any angle IMO.

This coin still seems to have quite a bit of contrast visible on the surface underneath the toning so I think the designation still applies.

messydesk

@FlyingAl said:

@gtstang said:
would seem like the cameo designation likely no longer applies.

I would disagree. The CAM designation refers to how much frost was imparted from the dies when the coin was struck. No amount of toning could change that amount, although it may dull the brilliance of the mirrors. A lot of CAM coins with toning get the designation because of how CAM is defined.

The only way that toning could change the designation is if it is so dark that the surface becomes monotone and no contrast exists at any angle IMO.

This coin still seems to have quite a bit of contrast visible on the surface underneath the toning so I think the designation still applies.

Correct. Take a look at the cameos on Coin Facts. Most are toned. Or to put it another way, most weren't freshly dipped before being submitted for grading.

bagofnickels

Since slabs are not airtight does that place increased importance on how you store slabbed coins? I've begun using guardhouse shield protector bags for my slabs (Mostly since some of the NGC slabs scratch so easily) in addition to a Lighthouse intercept box to store said slabs. How much does the slab being "virtually" airtight and the storage conditions of a slab factor into the coins stability inside a slab? And is my method of trying to protect my slabbed stuff a good one?

Scary to think a coin can change so dramatically after grading and encapsulation.

Broadstruck

Dip residue from not having been properly rinsed. It might still be okay now but needs to be diluted re-dipped and rinsed as it's not stable. So although pretty to some now the next transition state is for the blues to turn black and then finally eat into the coins surface. There're hundreds of coins like this slabbed at any coin show with dealers calling it toning. It's good to learn that it starts as light gold, then becomes brown, and later blue, prior to becoming terminal black. Personally, I run away from coins like this as for long-term ownership they aren't something I'd continually want to have to keep an eye on.

Edited to add: This might CAC but would never get a RickO sticker!

telephoto1

Disagree. Dip residue doesn't normally tone in that vivid bluish/reddish color palette. Improperly dipped pieces go light gold to dark brown and then black. I wonder if it was stored someplace that got hot, or if it was gassed. Either would be more consistent with the colors. jmho

Connecticoin

Dip residue or "dip burn" turning in the holder is usally fugly. I think the coin most likely was stored in a hot/humid environment to tone like that. However, I have never seen that happen in a newer PCGS holder. And coins gassed in the holder typically look like blatant AT.

The only other time I recall PCGS coins changing color is when board member "Manocoins" gassed some Morgan Dollars in rattlers and confessed to it.

airplanenut

@DelawareDoons said:
@MarkFeld HA may want to withdraw the lot?

You're looking for @MFeld

fathom

Yes, IMO that is NOT definitively dip residue.

Also why the hand wringing over accelerated toning? Is there an aesthetic or ethical difference between stripping a coin of its chemical reaction on the surface by dipping/conserving versus accelerating a chemical reaction on the surface?

I am not a proponent of alterations, but the numismatic understatement of the century is that there are a few dipped coins in straight graded holders.

lilolme

Still a tough call to me. Below are several with a similar tone and various degrees of.
The current HA pic in the holder indicates that the more white areas are actually a thick haze or chalky look.
And from previous post this coin was not blast white in 2014 HA sale as the in holder photos show a light color and some haze (possibly initial tone) throughout.

I do agree with @Broadstruck on dip residue first look and progression. Had one to develop to some blue and had it conserved. Been several years and the light brown is back but has not progressed any more - it is on watch, ha.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-three-cent-silver/1863-2-3cs-pr65-cameo-pcgs-cac/a/1344-3242.s?type=DA-DMC-CollectorsCorner-USCoins-1344-05042022

Walkerfan

Usually, dip residue toning is fugly......Like a charcoal haze. This doesn't look bad but appears to be UNSTABLE and toning rather quickly (assuming no other environmental influences). For that reason; I'd avoid it.

DelawareDoons

@Walkerfan said:
Usually, dip residue toning is fugly......Like a charcoal haze. This doesn't look bad but appears to be UNSTABLE and toning rather quickly (assuming no other environmental influences). For that reason; I'd avoid it.

That comes later. It progresses to that with time.

Dip something yourself in ez est and dont rinse it. Leave it on your desk or something for a few weeks. It'll turn quickly, so check it once every few days.

Walkerfan

@DelawareDoons said:

@Walkerfan said:
Usually, dip residue toning is fugly......Like a charcoal haze. This doesn't look bad but appears to be UNSTABLE and toning rather quickly (assuming no other environmental influences). For that reason; I'd avoid it.

That comes later. It progresses to that with time.

Dip something yourself in ez est and dont rinse it. Leave it on your desk or something for a few weeks. It'll turn quickly, so check it once every few days.

Even after a rinse it can turn, if not thorough enough.....That takes longer..

DelawareDoons

@Walkerfan said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@Walkerfan said:
Usually, dip residue toning is fugly......Like a charcoal haze. This doesn't look bad but appears to be UNSTABLE and toning rather quickly (assuming no other environmental influences). For that reason; I'd avoid it.

That comes later. It progresses to that with time.

Dip something yourself in ez est and dont rinse it. Leave it on your desk or something for a few weeks. It'll turn quickly, so check it once every few days.

Even after a rinse it can turn, if not thorough enough.....That takes longer..

Correct, I'm just saying, the toning on this just looks like what you get on an improperly rinsed coin before it gets to that charcoal (true terminal toning) color.

Elcontador

Don Willis told me a number of years ago that PCGS stopped guaranteeing RD copper re color because too many people were creating RD Unc. Lincoln Cents which looked fine in the grading room and would turn three or so months later. PCGS got tired of writing checks for this.

It brings up another point. You don't don't know what was done to a coin before it got into its current holder. I had an expensive old copper start to develop PVC spots 8 years in holder after I bought it. Won't buy any old copper unless I see it in an OGH as a result.

Know with whom you are doing business. He / she can point you in the right direction if something like this happens. Re my situation above, an well known copper guy helped me out.

Broadstruck

These tone more colorful from the dip residue opposed to a 38mm $1 as they are dinky diameter silver coins. So, the concentration of unrinsed dip residue if more present all over these tiny surfaces.