Gold CAC Vs. Next Grade Up
DisneyFan
Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you had a choice between a Gold CAC or the same date and mintmark coin, the next grade up, which would you pick? Example Gold CAC MS64 or MS65 no CAC. In this survey, do not assume both coins have the same price tag.
Gold CAC Vs. Next Grade Up
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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Gold CAC because then I can dream of it being even higher than 65...
Gold CAC because people will pay crazy money for them:
I would say gold cac.
Almost every gold cac coin I’ve seen is a knock your socks off example. Not your average coin.
Depends on eye appeal,
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I don't think your parameters are good because the gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up. This is not a fair comparison you've posted. Perhaps if you added that the 65 coin in your example would have a green CAC, it might be a better poll. Even then I would take the gold CAC.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
for the reasons above, gold CAC.
Tom
How can the question be answered in a meaningful way without knowing the cost of each option?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This poll is actually flawed. A Gold CAC is supposed to CAC at the next highest grade
Which coin looks better?
gold cac works depending om the look of it as well
This is what really matters. In my collecting interests (1936-42 proofs) all of the gold CAC coins I have seen are average coins. Many in the series are below average because I look for good detail, contrast, and color, and very few actually have these in any combination.
If I just bought a random coin in that series, chances are it would be dipped white or hazy with poor detail, and a lot of the gold CAC coins look like this. Granted, the numerical grade is rarely affected for these coins by color or detail, so it may CAC at the next grade. Ultimately, it depends on the coin for which example I want to purchase, based on the eye appeal.
Coin Photographer.
Is that truly "what really matters" if, for example, one coin is double or triple the price of the other? The OP wrote "...do not assume both coins have the same price tag." so I think that makes the exercise futile.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Two thoughts that keep occurring to me:
" ...gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up."
2.. There are risks involved in cracking out a gold CAC coin and resubmitting it to both services.
@MFeld Agreed, but I oftentimes do pay premiums for exceptional examples. The coin decides the premium for me, so I may pay more for the gold CAC or less depending on what coin I like better.
I’m not quite sure how to effectively describe it, but grade matters much less to me as the eye appeal of a coin. If the gold CAC coin is average in terms of eye appeal, I would likely pay less for it than a non CAC example of the same grade with exceptional eye appeal, and would take a coin the next grade up with exceptional eye appeal at a higher price.
So in essence, yes it is what matters to me. Gold CAC or not, the eye appeal often determines what I will pay for the coin. It would be easy to decide if the coins were the same price, but we don’t know that as you pointed out. Hopefully this is a good explanation.
Coin Photographer.
I think we can safely assume the gold CAC coin will not be a bargain. : ) Most likely it will be even higher than a no CAC coin in a higher grade.
If I don't know the price difference and can't see both coins, how can I guess? Maybe the gold CAC looks like it's 3 points undergraded. Maybe it's only one point undergraded but the no-CAC coin hasn't been sent in and is 3 points undergraded. Maybe the non-CAC coin is gorgeous beyond belief and the gold CAC is just a nice example in a lower grade holder than it should be in. Maybe any of those are true but one coin is priced to the moon.
Suppose I offer you a choice of two cars, one with 60,000 miles and one with 75,000 miles. I won't tell you the price or accident/maintenance history. Which one would you buy?
Perhaps the poll is flawed, but it's clear what the poll is driving at. I put a 1938 proof set together a couple of years ago with a minimum grade objective of 66. I spotted a half graded 65 with a gold sticker and it is awesome. Paid bean 66 or 66+ money. Loved the coin and liked the potential action if I aver sell it.
Yes, that's reasonable to assume. But sometimes the price of a gold-stickered CAC coin corresponds to a grade that is two or three points higher. And if you don't know the price, unless money is literally no object, how can you determine which coin you'd choose?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would choose the coin that I, MYSELF, found to be more eye appealing and technically strong.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Without knowing the prices this exercise is futile.
I’d obviously need to see the coins. I’m not a CAC guy, so I’d likely lean toward the higher grade. I’ve seen some ugly gold CACs.
Dave
Exactly!
Assume both coins are at a no reserve auction and appear representative of what they should be. You need/want the coin. You don't know where the hammer price will ultimately end up. Which one would you end up fighting for? And why? I understand for some, money is no object. For others it is a concern.
@DisneyFan Which coin do I want? The one in the holder with CAC or the one without it?
Or are we assuming this is a scenario where the exact same coin is in both holders?
Coin Photographer.
You hadn’t made it clear that you were talking about an auction setting. Sorry, as long as funds are limited, it depends on the coins and the required prices to obtain them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Gold CAC. The only Gold CAC coin I have is an AU58 H10C.
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I am taking a contrary position to most. If there is a substantial increase in prices say between Ms 64 to Ms 65 I opt for the Ms 65 as their is no guarantee the gold sticker 64 coin will be seen as Ms 65 by PCGS
A different question off the OPs thread would you rather have a Ms 64 gold sticker or a Ms 65 green sticker? Any thoughts
I think a MS65 with a green CAC would be more secure.
I didn't read any of the replies but since all of my 20+ gold coins with gold CAC stickers are in OGH's my choice is obvious. Plus it's easy to sell the dream when it's OGH and gold CAC ( most gold CAC's are in OGH's) . It's the ultimate total package with all the bells and whistles. Multiple point upgrade potential plus these coins generally just jump off the page and look out of place in their current holder.
FWIW I missed an email this morning from one of my favorite dealers. I was 30 minutes too late. It had an old gold coin with gold CAC in a OGH in the listing. When I reached out seven others had already tried to buy it. Doesn't mean it will always be like this but it's the way it is now.
A couple of examples
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Beautiful coins! I wish I owned them!
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
I think it’s impossible for CAC to make a statement like this.
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
From Coin World: Mysterious CAC gold stickers
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/mysterious-cac-gold-stickers.html
FWIW...
I suppose if one is a registry set player gold stickered cac coins would be counter intuitive
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
One of my favorite coins is one of only two 1916-D dimes gold stickered by CAC. I bought this coin at the Boston ANA show in 2010. It was in the PCGS OGH without a sticker.
I paid a strong price at $850 in PCGS G-04 (at that time). I submitted it to CAC fully expecting a gold sticker. It came back as a green sticker. I protested nicely to JA in person asking why he did not gold sticker it. He replied that G-04 and G-06 were both in Good condition and does not get a gold sticker. He agreed it was a full G-06. I then retorted with many examples of AU-50 vs AU-53 or AU-55 vs AU-58 getting gold stickered but they were both AU grade. Same thing for MS-60 and up.
He then admitted I was right. He then gave me the gold sticker. Hey,, an incorrect clock is right twice a day ??
You got to love the look of a gold sticker on the old green label. Better than the look of a gold sticker on the newer blue label.
Just because
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
Why? They could make that statement even if the coin were raw. They are professional graders evaluating a coin.
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
Since I am not a dealer, CAC or no CAC, makes no difference. I judge the coin... and the prices. If I really like the coin, labels mean nothing. If the price is excessive, a pass. Quality and price are determining factors, not stickers or the lack thereof. Cheers, RickO
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I don't understand. There is zero gamble as long as it's not cracked out. I would never crack out a gold stickered coin in an older holder.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The gamble is paying moon money for a gold sticker in hopes of cracking it out out for a big score, that some collectors will take a chance on.
Gold CAC. Top quality coins are solid sellers in comparison.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Agreed
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.