Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
To be fair, whether you can do it or not, it would be nice to add a gold stickered coin for less than the next grade level! I also feel it would be VERY nice to add an 1804 $1 to my collection for a little over spot.
Personally, I'm fine with people completely ignoring the stickers. They won't buy many coins that way, but that's not my concern. Where I draw the line is when they insist that everyone should ignore the sticker or they are fools.
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
I agree with everything you said except for "And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said 'I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal' ”.
I'll let you ask that survey question. : ) And assume the cost is the same. : )
@jmlanzaf said:
This poll is actually flawed. A Gold CAC is supposed to CAC at the next highest grade
Per CAC, the award of a gold sticker indicates that in CAC's opinion, the coin is "undergraded at the assigned grade". The is no opinion implied as to how much it is undergraded, nor is there any opinion implied as to whether or not it will sticker at any particular higher grade.
CPG value next grade up higher. If he’s telling you it’s under graded (gold sticker) send it in and get higher grade. Yes people will bid crazy money on gold stickered coins just like the will go all in - poker game.
@jmlanzaf said:
This poll is actually flawed. A Gold CAC is supposed to CAC at the next highest grade
Per CAC, the award of a gold sticker indicates that in CAC's opinion, the coin is "undergraded at the assigned grade". The is no opinion implied as to how much it is undergraded, nor is there any opinion implied as to whether or not it will sticker at any particular higher grade.
Thank you! Impressive! Can you quote the definitive source, please.
@jmlanzaf said:
This poll is actually flawed. A Gold CAC is supposed to CAC at the next highest grade
Per CAC, the award of a gold sticker indicates that in CAC's opinion, the coin is "undergraded at the assigned grade". The is no opinion implied as to how much it is undergraded, nor is there any opinion implied as to whether or not it will sticker at any particular higher grade.
Thank you! Impressive! Can you quote the definitive source, please.
I can't remember where I found that clarification, but it stuck with me - "undergraded at the assigned grade". I remember it as being from a CAC source, likely a post on one of the forum sites (PCGS, ATS, or the new CAC forum). I have also seen quotes ascribed to JA (but I haven't myself seen this one in a post by him or anyone else from CAC) that a gold-stickered coin "could easily receive a green sticker at the next higher grade". To me, the word "could" was operative in that quote; it didn't say that it "would", only that it "could".
@jmlanzaf said:
This poll is actually flawed. A Gold CAC is supposed to CAC at the next highest grade
Per CAC, the award of a gold sticker indicates that in CAC's opinion, the coin is "undergraded at the assigned grade". The is no opinion implied as to how much it is undergraded, nor is there any opinion implied as to whether or not it will sticker at any particular higher grade.
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
@Joey29 This last statement doesn't make a ton of sense. Why would you not save yourself the ten grand and buy the gold sticker coin? The thread is of the praise that you have to pay up for either the gold sticker or higher grade.
I know for a fact that I would take the coin that is undergrad in CAC's opinion and save myself ten grand.
@FlyingAl said: @Joey29 This last statement doesn't make a ton of sense. Why would you not save yourself the ten grand and buy the gold sticker coin? The thread is of the praise that you have to pay up for either the gold sticker or higher grade.
I know for a fact that I would take the coin that is undergrad in CAC's opinion and save myself ten grand.
You are assuming that the gold sticker coin is a virtual guaranteed upgrade for the next PCGS level when that is not necessarily true. You are gambling $10,000 on that assumption. I would sleep better at night knowing that the 65 coin not only meets PCGS requirements but is solid or high end for CAC as well, a double insurance
@FlyingAl said: @Joey29 This last statement doesn't make a ton of sense. Why would you not save yourself the ten grand and buy the gold sticker coin? The thread is of the praise that you have to pay up for either the gold sticker or higher grade.
I know for a fact that I would take the coin that is undergrad in CAC's opinion and save myself ten grand.
You are assuming that the gold sticker coin is a virtual guaranteed upgrade for the next PCGS level when that is not necessarily true. You are gambling $10,000 on that assumption. I would sleep better at night knowing that the 65 coin not only meets PCGS requirements but is solid or high end for CAC as well, a double insurance
But is a premium 64 really worth ten grand less than a 65? I honestly don’t care about the number on the slab when my pockets are ten grand less full. Could anyone truly tell the difference if the slab wasn’t there?
In essence, you end up paying ten thousand for a number on a piece of plastic. This is because the difference is so minor the market will essentially view the coin as under graded with the gold CAC. This is why gold CACs have large premiums even in newer holders.
And in all reality, why base your coins off of what a TPG says? Evaluate their value for yourself and forget what the TPG says when it costs so much IMO.
@FlyingAl said: @Joey29 This last statement doesn't make a ton of sense. Why would you not save yourself the ten grand and buy the gold sticker coin? The thread is of the praise that you have to pay up for either the gold sticker or higher grade.
I know for a fact that I would take the coin that is undergrad in CAC's opinion and save myself ten grand.
You are assuming that the gold sticker coin is a virtual guaranteed upgrade for the next PCGS level when that is not necessarily true. You are gambling $10,000 on that assumption. I would sleep better at night knowing that the 65 coin not only meets PCGS requirements but is solid or high end for CAC as well, a double insurance
But is a premium 64 really worth ten grand less than a 65? I honestly don’t care about the number on the slab when my pockets are ten grand less full. Could anyone truly tell the difference if the slab wasn’t there?
In essence, you end up paying ten thousand for a number on a piece of plastic. This is because the difference is so minor the market will essentially view the coin as under graded with the gold CAC. This is why gold CACs have large premiums even in newer holders.
And in all reality, why base your coins off of what a TPG says? Evaluate their value for yourself and forget what the TPG says when it costs so much IMO.
Right or wrong our coins in the market place are valued by TPG label s and numbers. I think a lot of the price craziness for gold stickers is the fascination with the uniqueness of the gold sticker as opposed to the value of the coin itself. Nothing wrong with adding gold stickers to a collection just don’t get carried away by that sticker. It’s sort of like paying a high price for a Tiffany or Gucci label even though the diamond is the same quality
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
You started out by saying “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”. Doesn’t that imply something along the lines of “in each case” or “(nearly) all the time”? Sure, there will be exceptions but I believe in most cases, the majority of CAC coin buyers would go with the gold-stickered option. Also, you mentioned eye-appeal,but neglected to include quality.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
You started out by saying “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”. Doesn’t that imply something along the lines of “in each case” or “(nearly) all the time”? Sure, there will be exceptions but I believe in most cases, the majority of CAC coin buyers would go with the gold-stickered option. Also, you mentioned eye-appeal,but neglected to include quality.
Yes I mean quality as well. It’s like do you pay for Tiffany’s blue box a huge premium even though the diamond is the same quality as one on Blue Nile? Maybe fools gold. I expect the gold sticker premium May in fact decrease over time as the gold sticker novelty wears off and the coin value for the price regains importance the better value in the green sticker with predominate
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
You started out by saying “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”. Doesn’t that imply something along the lines of “in each case” or “(nearly) all the time”? Sure, there will be exceptions but I believe in most cases, the majority of CAC coin buyers would go with the gold-stickered option. Also, you mentioned eye-appeal,but neglected to include quality.
Yes I mean quality as well. It’s like do you pay for Tiffany’s blue box a huge premium even though the diamond is the same quality as one on Blue Nile? Maybe fools gold. I expect the gold sticker premium May in fact decrease over time as the gold sticker novelty wears off and the coin value for the price regains importance the better value in the green sticker with predominate
I think that was a very poor analogy.
The gold sticker “novelty” has already had plenty of time to wear off.
Buy what you like and don’t worry about what others choose to do with their money.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Catbert said:
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
Why. Very few gold stickers are more than 1 grade level higher at PCGS. And many green stickers I would think are probably of A quality not just B coins that just made it. If PCGS ever guarantees they will certify gold CAC at their next grade level you win.
It's really simple. The gold sticker has a proven history of increasing, often very dramatically, the price realizations of coins so stickered. Often by an amount that puts the price above what would be the expected price for the next higher grade. Make of it what you will. There is no universal "should" or "best" which can serve as an immutable guide to buyers. Each buyer will buy what he or she likes at a price he or she feels is appropriate and affordable.
@Catbert said:
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
Why. Very few gold stickers are more than 1 grade level higher at PCGS. And many green stickers I would think are probably of A quality not just B coins that just made it. If PCGS ever guarantees they will certify gold CAC at their next grade level you win.
Let's pose a hypothetical here: I have an 1881-S Morgan in 63 gold CAC, and a 1881-S Morgan in 64 green CAC.
The coins are equal in eye appeal. The latter (64) will cost you ten thousand dollars more (These prices are totally made up to exaggerate my point, it may be true with a 67-68 jump)
Joey, based on your posts, you would pay up for the 64 even though it is in all ways equal in eye appeal to the 63 gold CAC all because of a label. This is the same situation as your Tiffany's analogy, but instead, using your logic with coins. You said you wouldn't pay a huge premium for a diamond of similar quality, but you are willing to do it with a Morgan dollar? This is why your argument isn't making much sense to me.
@Catbert said:
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
Why. Very few gold stickers are more than 1 grade level higher at PCGS. And many green stickers I would think are probably of A quality not just B coins that just made it. If PCGS ever guarantees they will certify gold CAC at their next grade level you win.
Let's pose a hypothetical here: I have an 1881-S Morgan in 63 gold CAC, and a 1881-S Morgan in 64 green CAC.
The coins are equal in eye appeal. The latter (64) will cost you ten thousand dollars more (These prices are totally made up to exaggerate my point, it may be true with a 67-68 jump)
Joey, based on your posts, you would pay up for the 64 even though it is in all ways equal in eye appeal to the 63 gold CAC all because of a label. This is the same situation as your Tiffany's analogy, but instead, using your logic with coins. You said you wouldn't pay a huge premium for a diamond of similar quality, but you are willing to do it with a Morgan dollar? This is why your argument isn't making much sense to me.
You are still assuming the CAC gold is going to qualify for the next grade level at PCGS which has its own grading criteria which is not as technical as CAC. Many Gia certified diamonds are very similar in look and quality almost generic so to say. not so with the many variables in coin grading. I am paying for the criteria of PCGS plus the valuable double insurance of the CAC sticker. That I think is more worthy of. only the gold sticker by itself.
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
The poll makes no sense if there is a price difference. The premise is that the price is the same
What you all are missing is the greatly enhanced value of a PCGS graded coin at the next level, doubly endorsed by a prestigious green sticker from CAC. That should surely carry more weight than a gold sticker by itself. A super combination.
@Joey29 said:
What you all are missing is the greatly enhanced value of a PCGS graded coin at the next level, doubly endorsed by a prestigious green sticker from CAC. That should surely carry more weight than a gold sticker by itself. A super combination.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe we’re not all missing anything, and just happen to disagree with you? Repeating yourself multiple times probably isn’t going to change that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Catbert said:
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
Why. Very few gold stickers are more than 1 grade level higher at PCGS. And many green stickers I would think are probably of A quality not just B coins that just made it. If PCGS ever guarantees they will certify gold CAC at their next grade level you win.
Let's pose a hypothetical here: I have an 1881-S Morgan in 63 gold CAC, and a 1881-S Morgan in 64 green CAC.
The coins are equal in eye appeal. The latter (64) will cost you ten thousand dollars more (These prices are totally made up to exaggerate my point, it may be true with a 67-68 jump)
Joey, based on your posts, you would pay up for the 64 even though it is in all ways equal in eye appeal to the 63 gold CAC all because of a label. This is the same situation as your Tiffany's analogy, but instead, using your logic with coins. You said you wouldn't pay a huge premium for a diamond of similar quality, but you are willing to do it with a Morgan dollar? This is why your argument isn't making much sense to me.
You are still assuming the CAC gold is going to qualify for the next grade level at PCGS which has its own grading criteria which is not as technical as CAC. Many Gia certified diamonds are very similar in look and quality almost generic so to say. not so with the many variables in coin grading. I am paying for the criteria of PCGS plus the valuable double insurance of the CAC sticker. That I think is more worthy of. only the gold sticker by itself.
Most, by a large majority, CAC coins upgrade. You can create all kinds of fake scenarios to "prove" either point, like your fictional $10,000 price difference.
Ultimately, you are arguing against an established market that understands exactly what the slab means and exactly what the sticker means.
@Joey29 said:
What you all are missing is the greatly enhanced value of a PCGS graded coin at the next level, doubly endorsed by a prestigious green sticker from CAC. That should surely carry more weight than a gold sticker by itself. A super combination.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe we’re not all missing anything, and just happen to disagree with you? Repeating yourself multiple times probably isn’t going to change that.
You still haven’t explained why a 64 gold is as good as a guaranteed PCGS 65 with a CAC green sticker as an extra addition. I could understand your point if the 65 PCGS had no corresponding green sticker. And I don’t think I am in the minority if you surveyed collector’s opinion with the CAC sticker as the second guarantee. Someone please conduct a new poll. I am interested to see the results
Have you found a statement on CAC's website that a gold CAC means the coin will at least green sticker at the next grade up?
No. I don't think I've been on the site more then once. I asked John personally what the gold sticker meant when he unleashed the service. He told me the gold sticker was to protect collectors from selling off their very under graded coins. Personally I love the ambiguity and mystery of a gold stickered coin. It a way it's almost like a "raw" coin that you know hasn't been monkied with.
m
A gold sticker is exciting to own, but I don’t know why everyone thinks it’s an automatic guaranteed grade level up. It’s still an opinion even though it’s coming from one of the foremost experts in numismatics Some people even think gold is 2 or 3 grades up which is highly unlikely with PCGS given its overall accuracy, although possible on some rare occasions. Also PCGS won’t always agree with a gold sticker as an upgrade by them
And their opinion is that it will upgrade, such is why gold not green
That’s fine if you like gambling like in a casino game. It’s fine to pay a premium for the gold prestige but to bet big money on 2-3 jumps in grade is an extremely risky game
No one said 2 or 3 jumps in grade. We said one.
If you want to play the "what if" game with wild speculation, went would you we've buy a 65 without a CAC because it could be overgraded by 2 or 3 grades.
It’s extremely unlikely a non CAC coin would be overgraded by 2-3 grades, maybe 1. Also for those purchasing gold stickers doesn’t make sense to go crazy overpaying. Don’t assume guaranteed 1 grade bump by PCGS. Rather pay for nice green sticker fairly priced coin.
I'm not advocating assuming a 2/3 grade jump. There's a lot of coin myths out there, like old holders automatically upgrade. Or like a 65 should always be worth more than a 64. Or that a 16D dime is a rare coin.
I know a lot of CAC buyers. I don't know any that assume a 2 grade increase.
I do agree with your view point on the coin myths. I am also realizing that a gold sticker is overrated. Why pay huge premiums for a coin that may or may not upgrade by PCGS. I buy attractive green sticker coins for the more reasonable premiums that they cost. A gold sticker can be a nice addition to your collection if bought for a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level. I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal The PCGS grade and holder is still the gold standard for the coin hobby. The CAC sticker is the nice addition. Feel free to agree or disagree
Disagree. How often can you buy a gold-stickered CAC coin for “a reasonable premium that is less than the next grade level.“? And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”.
While you don’t feel that the premiums for gold -stickered coins are justified - and in many cases I agree with you - some people don’t feel the premiums for green-stickered coins are deserved. Still others don’t feel that the premiums for PCGS coins over NGC coins make sense. Different people have different views and collecting preferences.
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
The poll makes no sense if there is a price difference. The premise is that the price is the same
Agreed. Maybe not a big difference in opinion than. But throw in a huge price difference and I think the PCGS green sticker is a no brainer
@Catbert said:
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
Why. Very few gold stickers are more than 1 grade level higher at PCGS. And many green stickers I would think are probably of A quality not just B coins that just made it. If PCGS ever guarantees they will certify gold CAC at their next grade level you win.
Let's pose a hypothetical here: I have an 1881-S Morgan in 63 gold CAC, and a 1881-S Morgan in 64 green CAC.
The coins are equal in eye appeal. The latter (64) will cost you ten thousand dollars more (These prices are totally made up to exaggerate my point, it may be true with a 67-68 jump)
Joey, based on your posts, you would pay up for the 64 even though it is in all ways equal in eye appeal to the 63 gold CAC all because of a label. This is the same situation as your Tiffany's analogy, but instead, using your logic with coins. You said you wouldn't pay a huge premium for a diamond of similar quality, but you are willing to do it with a Morgan dollar? This is why your argument isn't making much sense to me.
You are still assuming the CAC gold is going to qualify for the next grade level at PCGS which has its own grading criteria which is not as technical as CAC. Many Gia certified diamonds are very similar in look and quality almost generic so to say. not so with the many variables in coin grading. I am paying for the criteria of PCGS plus the valuable double insurance of the CAC sticker. That I think is more worthy of. only the gold sticker by itself.
Most, by a large majority, CAC coins upgrade. You can create all kinds of fake scenarios to "prove" either point, like your fictional $10,000 price difference.
Ultimately, you are arguing against an established market that understands exactly what the slab means and exactly what the sticker means.
So you are saying a 64 gold is equivalent or better than a 65 even with a green sticker, I am not talking 65 non CAC here
@Joey29 said:
What you all are missing is the greatly enhanced value of a PCGS graded coin at the next level, doubly endorsed by a prestigious green sticker from CAC. That should surely carry more weight than a gold sticker by itself. A super combination.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe we’re not all missing anything, and just happen to disagree with you? Repeating yourself multiple times probably isn’t going to change that.
You still haven’t explained why a 64 gold is as good as a guaranteed PCGS 65 with a CAC green sticker as an extra addition. I could understand your point if the 65 PCGS had no corresponding green sticker. And I don’t think I am in the minority if you surveyed collector’s opinion with the CAC sticker as the second guarantee. Someone please conduct a new poll. I am interested to see the results
In many more cases than not, the collective market has said so for close to 15 years, now. And many buyers could care less about re-submitting their gold-stickered coins for upgrade.
Feel free to continue beating this dead horse - I’m done.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Joey29 said:
What you all are missing is the greatly enhanced value of a PCGS graded coin at the next level, doubly endorsed by a prestigious green sticker from CAC. That should surely carry more weight than a gold sticker by itself. A super combination.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe we’re not all missing anything, and just happen to disagree with you? Repeating yourself multiple times probably isn’t going to change that.
You still haven’t explained why a 64 gold is as good as a guaranteed PCGS 65 with a CAC green sticker as an extra addition. I could understand your point if the 65 PCGS had no corresponding green sticker. And I don’t think I am in the minority if you surveyed collector’s opinion with the CAC sticker as the second guarantee. Someone please conduct a new poll. I am interested to see the results
In many more cases than not, the collective market has said so for close to 15 years, now. And many buyers could care less about re-submitting their gold-stickered coins for upgrade.
Feel free to continue beating this dead horse - I’m done.
So you are saying a 64 gold is equivalent or better than a 65 even with a green sticker, I am not talking 65 non CAC here
Yes. That's not only what I'm saying, but what the majority of the market and posters here are saying too. Why?
Because it's what the founder and main grader of CAC says. Here's a quote from a Coinweek article : "What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
So in other words, CAC essentially says that a gold sticker is EXACTLY the same as a coin with a green sticker at the next grade up. The two 1881-S coins in my example are equal in CAC's eyes.
Agreed. Maybe not a big difference in opinion than. But throw in a huge price difference and I think the PCGS green sticker is a no brainer
No. Why? Because the majority of people here would take the gold CAC rather than PAY THE HUGE PREMIUM for the next PCGS grade. When the gold CAC is cheaper, very few would pass that up.
So you are saying a 64 gold is equivalent or better than a 65 even with a green sticker, I am not talking 65 non CAC here
Yes. That's not only what I'm saying, but what the majority of the market and posters here are saying too. Why?
Because it's what the founder and main grader of CAC says. Here's a quote from a Coinweek article : "What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
So in other words, CAC essentially says that a gold sticker is EXACTLY the same as a coin with a green sticker at the next grade up. The two 1881-S coins in my example are equal in CAC's eyes.
Agreed. Maybe not a big difference in opinion than. But throw in a huge price difference and I think the PCGS green sticker is a no brainer
No. Why? Because the majority of people here would take the gold CAC rather than PAY THE HUGE PREMIUM for the next PCGS grade. When the gold CAC is cheaper, very few would pass that up.
So to take a serious example. Would you rather pay $250,000 for a ms 64 gold 1919D walker or $250,000 for a Ms 65 green sticker 1919D walker?
So you are saying a 64 gold is equivalent or better than a 65 even with a green sticker, I am not talking 65 non CAC here
Yes. That's not only what I'm saying, but what the majority of the market and posters here are saying too. Why?
Because it's what the founder and main grader of CAC says. Here's a quote from a Coinweek article : "What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
So in other words, CAC essentially says that a gold sticker is EXACTLY the same as a coin with a green sticker at the next grade up. The two 1881-S coins in my example are equal in CAC's eyes.
Agreed. Maybe not a big difference in opinion than. But throw in a huge price difference and I think the PCGS green sticker is a no brainer
No. Why? Because the majority of people here would take the gold CAC rather than PAY THE HUGE PREMIUM for the next PCGS grade. When the gold CAC is cheaper, very few would pass that up.
So to take a serious example. Would you rather pay $250,000 for a ms 64 gold 1919D walker or $250,000 for a Ms 65 green sticker 1919D walker?
Assuming equal eye appeal, I'd take the gold sticker coin. If eye appeal is greater in either direction, I'd take the coin with the greater eye appeal.
In all aspects, the coins are essentially the same. I like the gold sticker because it adds an aspect of novelty to the coin. Neither is truly better than the other.
So you are saying a 64 gold is equivalent or better than a 65 even with a green sticker, I am not talking 65 non CAC here
Yes. That's not only what I'm saying, but what the majority of the market and posters here are saying too. Why?
Because it's what the founder and main grader of CAC says. Here's a quote from a Coinweek article : "What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
So in other words, CAC essentially says that a gold sticker is EXACTLY the same as a coin with a green sticker at the next grade up. The two 1881-S coins in my example are equal in CAC's eyes.
Agreed. Maybe not a big difference in opinion than. But throw in a huge price difference and I think the PCGS green sticker is a no brainer
No. Why? Because the majority of people here would take the gold CAC rather than PAY THE HUGE PREMIUM for the next PCGS grade. When the gold CAC is cheaper, very few would pass that up.
So to take a serious example. Would you rather pay $250,000 for a ms 64 gold 1919D walker or $250,000 for a Ms 65 green sticker 1919D walker?
Assuming equal eye appeal, I'd take the gold sticker coin. If eye appeal is greater in either direction, I'd take the coin with the greater eye appeal.
In all aspects, the coins are essentially the same. I like the gold sticker because it adds an aspect of novelty to the coin. Neither is truly better than the other.
Okay fair enough. Honest difference of opinion. I just want the security of the PCGS 65 as well as the CAC sticker. All the best
Damn all the agonizing and brain twisting these little foil footballs can create! Just think how much further this is going to go when they are available by the roll on alibaba. It's only a matter of time from what I hear.
@amwldcoin said:
Damn all the agonizing and brain twisting these little foil footballs can create! Just think how much further this is going to go when they are available by the roll on alibaba. It's only a matter of time from what I hear.
The rolls of stickers won't do you any good without the fake slab also.
@amwldcoin said:
Damn all the agonizing and brain twisting these little foil footballs can create! Just think how much further this is going to go when they are available by the roll on alibaba. It's only a matter of time from what I hear.
It seems the agony is with the OP since several have refuted his premise along with Mr Market.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@amwldcoin said:
Damn all the agonizing and brain twisting these little foil footballs can create! Just think how much further this is going to go when they are available by the roll on alibaba. It's only a matter of time from what I hear.
It seems the agony is with the OP since several have refuted his premise along with Mr Market.
I have to LOL! I'm agonizing because I don't want or feel the need to get a 3rd opinion on my coins which I don't always agree with?
@MasonG said:
From Coin World: Mysterious CAC gold stickers
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
FWIW...not much. Here's an EF45 CAC that turned into an EF40 CAC upon resubmission. JA was aware that this coin was previously EF45 CAC, was 100% undamaged by a USPS accident (minor miracle!), and he still refused to give it a gold sticker. In his opinion, EF45 is an unnecessary grade. Wuht?
@MasonG said:
From Coin World: Mysterious CAC gold stickers
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
FWIW...not much. Here's an EF45 CAC that turned into an EF40 CAC upon resubmission. JA was aware that this coin was previously EF45 CAC, was 100% undamaged by a USPS accident (minor miracle!), and he still refused to give it a gold sticker. In his opinion, EF45 is an unnecessary grade. Wuht?
CAC has never indicated that they automatically award a gold sticker to a coin if/when they feel it’s under-graded by one grade. In addition to that, apparently, they don’t consider the difference between a 40 and a 45 to be as significant as differences between many other contiguous grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It seems like from the opinions given in this thread that next grade up means F -> VF -> XF -> AU -> MS, and not 40 -> 45, 53 -> 55, etc. That is new information to me, and worth considering. This would imply that a gold xf40 coin implies that it would green sticker at au50, not at just xf45.
There is simply nothing here to compare. A gold stickered coin carries a much bigger premium than the next grade up. That may not be true in every case but for collector coins under say, $200 I believe it's fact.
People want a gold stickered coin in their collection.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
I haven't read every post in this thread but for me personally, if I had an OGH (which I do), I have kinda settled on pq or cac over reconsideration as a lot of people seem to value to older holders, sometimes obscenely so. If it's in a newer holder already, as a purchaser, I personally would rather have the higher grade with a green than a lower grade and gold. But I know others see it differently.
But as has been said ad infinitum... Buy the coin not the slab or sticker. Value is in the eye of the beholder and I recognize the gold does command a premium in some if not most people's eyes.
I value CAC's opinion as I do PCGS, but I would have to see both coins before I could decide between Gold CAC or next grade up. Of course that works for me as I am collecting coins and not looking at future resale value only. The loss difference (if there is any) between my purchase price and when I sell price equals the price I paid for all the years of enjoyment while I held the coins. To me that is the price of admission for my hobby.
I would need to know the cost and the condition of each piece, but just a gut shot vote is for one grade higher in a PCGS holder only. Also, I have brought gold stickered coins to dealers who say things like, well that should be stickered but not gold.. etc...
Not Voting... I am not a Manchurian Collector. The coin matters. It really is annoying that questions and polls tend to gravitate to stickers and holders and rarely is the coin involved in determining preference. Do we really need to further stereotype nonsense through nonsensical polls?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Comments
To be fair, whether you can do it or not, it would be nice to add a gold stickered coin for less than the next grade level! I also feel it would be VERY nice to add an 1804 $1 to my collection for a little over spot.
Personally, I'm fine with people completely ignoring the stickers. They won't buy many coins that way, but that's not my concern. Where I draw the line is when they insist that everyone should ignore the sticker or they are fools.
I agree with everything you said except for "And my guess is that you’re in the minority in your buying habits if, as you said 'I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal' ”.
I'll let you ask that survey question. : ) And assume the cost is the same. : )
(deleted)
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Per CAC, the award of a gold sticker indicates that in CAC's opinion, the coin is "undergraded at the assigned grade". The is no opinion implied as to how much it is undergraded, nor is there any opinion implied as to whether or not it will sticker at any particular higher grade.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
CPG value next grade up higher. If he’s telling you it’s under graded (gold sticker) send it in and get higher grade. Yes people will bid crazy money on gold stickered coins just like the will go all in - poker game.
Thank you! Impressive! Can you quote the definitive source, please.
I can't remember where I found that clarification, but it stuck with me - "undergraded at the assigned grade". I remember it as being from a CAC source, likely a post on one of the forum sites (PCGS, ATS, or the new CAC forum). I have also seen quotes ascribed to JA (but I haven't myself seen this one in a post by him or anyone else from CAC) that a gold-stickered coin "could easily receive a green sticker at the next higher grade". To me, the word "could" was operative in that quote; it didn't say that it "would", only that it "could".
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Here, right from JA's mouth
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2013/01/mysterious-cac-gold-stickers.html#
How about gold sticker on REGENCY holder?
When there is a $10,000 difference in price between the 64 and 65 grade level do you think I still I am in the minority between buying a 64 gold or a 65 green sticker Mark? I can see that being more true when the price difference is small
@Joey29 This last statement doesn't make a ton of sense. Why would you not save yourself the ten grand and buy the gold sticker coin? The thread is of the praise that you have to pay up for either the gold sticker or higher grade.
I know for a fact that I would take the coin that is undergrad in CAC's opinion and save myself ten grand.
Coin Photographer.
You are assuming that the gold sticker coin is a virtual guaranteed upgrade for the next PCGS level when that is not necessarily true. You are gambling $10,000 on that assumption. I would sleep better at night knowing that the 65 coin not only meets PCGS requirements but is solid or high end for CAC as well, a double insurance
But is a premium 64 really worth ten grand less than a 65? I honestly don’t care about the number on the slab when my pockets are ten grand less full. Could anyone truly tell the difference if the slab wasn’t there?
In essence, you end up paying ten thousand for a number on a piece of plastic. This is because the difference is so minor the market will essentially view the coin as under graded with the gold CAC. This is why gold CACs have large premiums even in newer holders.
And in all reality, why base your coins off of what a TPG says? Evaluate their value for yourself and forget what the TPG says when it costs so much IMO.
Coin Photographer.
AS a buyer, I would take the certain 65 if the price of the gold 64 represents an outsized jump.
As a seller I would take the coin with the gold sticker since I can sell the coins + dreams to the potential buyer.
Right or wrong our coins in the market place are valued by TPG label s and numbers. I think a lot of the price craziness for gold stickers is the fascination with the uniqueness of the gold sticker as opposed to the value of the coin itself. Nothing wrong with adding gold stickers to a collection just don’t get carried away by that sticker. It’s sort of like paying a high price for a Tiffany or Gucci label even though the diamond is the same quality
You started out by saying “I will buy the 65 green sticker any day over a 64 gold sticker, assuming equal eye appeal”. Doesn’t that imply something along the lines of “in each case” or “(nearly) all the time”? Sure, there will be exceptions but I believe in most cases, the majority of CAC coin buyers would go with the gold-stickered option. Also, you mentioned eye-appeal,but neglected to include quality.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Only 0.5% of the coins that CAC have reviewed have gotten the gold designation. I think it is a fair assumption that there is a high probability that the 65 green is not the same level of quality as the 64 gold.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Yes I mean quality as well. It’s like do you pay for Tiffany’s blue box a huge premium even though the diamond is the same quality as one on Blue Nile? Maybe fools gold. I expect the gold sticker premium May in fact decrease over time as the gold sticker novelty wears off and the coin value for the price regains importance the better value in the green sticker with predominate
I think that was a very poor analogy.
The gold sticker “novelty” has already had plenty of time to wear off.
Buy what you like and don’t worry about what others choose to do with their money.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A gold sticker brings extra attention to a coin — whether the coin truly deserves it or not.
Why. Very few gold stickers are more than 1 grade level higher at PCGS. And many green stickers I would think are probably of A quality not just B coins that just made it. If PCGS ever guarantees they will certify gold CAC at their next grade level you win.
It's really simple. The gold sticker has a proven history of increasing, often very dramatically, the price realizations of coins so stickered. Often by an amount that puts the price above what would be the expected price for the next higher grade. Make of it what you will. There is no universal "should" or "best" which can serve as an immutable guide to buyers. Each buyer will buy what he or she likes at a price he or she feels is appropriate and affordable.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Let's pose a hypothetical here: I have an 1881-S Morgan in 63 gold CAC, and a 1881-S Morgan in 64 green CAC.
The coins are equal in eye appeal. The latter (64) will cost you ten thousand dollars more (These prices are totally made up to exaggerate my point, it may be true with a 67-68 jump)
Joey, based on your posts, you would pay up for the 64 even though it is in all ways equal in eye appeal to the 63 gold CAC all because of a label. This is the same situation as your Tiffany's analogy, but instead, using your logic with coins. You said you wouldn't pay a huge premium for a diamond of similar quality, but you are willing to do it with a Morgan dollar? This is why your argument isn't making much sense to me.
Coin Photographer.
You are still assuming the CAC gold is going to qualify for the next grade level at PCGS which has its own grading criteria which is not as technical as CAC. Many Gia certified diamonds are very similar in look and quality almost generic so to say. not so with the many variables in coin grading. I am paying for the criteria of PCGS plus the valuable double insurance of the CAC sticker. That I think is more worthy of. only the gold sticker by itself.
The poll makes no sense if there is a price difference. The premise is that the price is the same
What you all are missing is the greatly enhanced value of a PCGS graded coin at the next level, doubly endorsed by a prestigious green sticker from CAC. That should surely carry more weight than a gold sticker by itself. A super combination.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe we’re not all missing anything, and just happen to disagree with you? Repeating yourself multiple times probably isn’t going to change that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most, by a large majority, CAC coins upgrade. You can create all kinds of fake scenarios to "prove" either point, like your fictional $10,000 price difference.
Ultimately, you are arguing against an established market that understands exactly what the slab means and exactly what the sticker means.
You still haven’t explained why a 64 gold is as good as a guaranteed PCGS 65 with a CAC green sticker as an extra addition. I could understand your point if the 65 PCGS had no corresponding green sticker. And I don’t think I am in the minority if you surveyed collector’s opinion with the CAC sticker as the second guarantee. Someone please conduct a new poll. I am interested to see the results
Agreed. Maybe not a big difference in opinion than. But throw in a huge price difference and I think the PCGS green sticker is a no brainer
So you are saying a 64 gold is equivalent or better than a 65 even with a green sticker, I am not talking 65 non CAC here
In many more cases than not, the collective market has said so for close to 15 years, now. And many buyers could care less about re-submitting their gold-stickered coins for upgrade.
Feel free to continue beating this dead horse - I’m done.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay I see you don’t like differing opinions
Yes. That's not only what I'm saying, but what the majority of the market and posters here are saying too. Why?
Because it's what the founder and main grader of CAC says. Here's a quote from a Coinweek article : "What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
So in other words, CAC essentially says that a gold sticker is EXACTLY the same as a coin with a green sticker at the next grade up. The two 1881-S coins in my example are equal in CAC's eyes.
No. Why? Because the majority of people here would take the gold CAC rather than PAY THE HUGE PREMIUM for the next PCGS grade. When the gold CAC is cheaper, very few would pass that up.
Coin Photographer.
So to take a serious example. Would you rather pay $250,000 for a ms 64 gold 1919D walker or $250,000 for a Ms 65 green sticker 1919D walker?
Assuming equal eye appeal, I'd take the gold sticker coin. If eye appeal is greater in either direction, I'd take the coin with the greater eye appeal.
In all aspects, the coins are essentially the same. I like the gold sticker because it adds an aspect of novelty to the coin. Neither is truly better than the other.
Coin Photographer.
Okay fair enough. Honest difference of opinion. I just want the security of the PCGS 65 as well as the CAC sticker. All the best
Damn all the agonizing and brain twisting these little foil footballs can create! Just think how much further this is going to go when they are available by the roll on alibaba. It's only a matter of time from what I hear.
The rolls of stickers won't do you any good without the fake slab also.
It seems the agony is with the OP since several have refuted his premise along with Mr Market.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I have to LOL! I'm agonizing because I don't want or feel the need to get a 3rd opinion on my coins which I don't always agree with?
Here's my pecking order of opinion importance:
1 Mine
2 Mine
3 Mine
4 PCGS
5 NGC
6 Hmmm
7 Hmmm
8 Hmmm
9 Hmmm
10 CAC Maybe
FWIW...not much. Here's an EF45 CAC that turned into an EF40 CAC upon resubmission. JA was aware that this coin was previously EF45 CAC, was 100% undamaged by a USPS accident (minor miracle!), and he still refused to give it a gold sticker. In his opinion, EF45 is an unnecessary grade. Wuht?
CAC has never indicated that they automatically award a gold sticker to a coin if/when they feel it’s under-graded by one grade. In addition to that, apparently, they don’t consider the difference between a 40 and a 45 to be as significant as differences between many other contiguous grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It seems like from the opinions given in this thread that next grade up means F -> VF -> XF -> AU -> MS, and not 40 -> 45, 53 -> 55, etc. That is new information to me, and worth considering. This would imply that a gold xf40 coin implies that it would green sticker at au50, not at just xf45.
There is simply nothing here to compare. A gold stickered coin carries a much bigger premium than the next grade up. That may not be true in every case but for collector coins under say, $200 I believe it's fact.
People want a gold stickered coin in their collection.
I haven't read every post in this thread but for me personally, if I had an OGH (which I do), I have kinda settled on pq or cac over reconsideration as a lot of people seem to value to older holders, sometimes obscenely so. If it's in a newer holder already, as a purchaser, I personally would rather have the higher grade with a green than a lower grade and gold. But I know others see it differently.
But as has been said ad infinitum... Buy the coin not the slab or sticker. Value is in the eye of the beholder and I recognize the gold does command a premium in some if not most people's eyes.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I value CAC's opinion as I do PCGS, but I would have to see both coins before I could decide between Gold CAC or next grade up. Of course that works for me as I am collecting coins and not looking at future resale value only. The loss difference (if there is any) between my purchase price and when I sell price equals the price I paid for all the years of enjoyment while I held the coins. To me that is the price of admission for my hobby.
Enjoy your coins or hobby that you chose.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
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I would need to know the cost and the condition of each piece, but just a gut shot vote is for one grade higher in a PCGS holder only. Also, I have brought gold stickered coins to dealers who say things like, well that should be stickered but not gold.. etc...
Not Voting... I am not a Manchurian Collector. The coin matters. It really is annoying that questions and polls tend to gravitate to stickers and holders and rarely is the coin involved in determining preference. Do we really need to further stereotype nonsense through nonsensical polls?
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Gold bean all day.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."