NGC MS graded coins to PCGS graded coins……….TVs added………
Herb_T
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I recently cracked some NGC graded coins and submitted them to PCGS for grading. I realized going into this that they might grade lower, I was willing to accept that. What I wasn’t prepared for was for them to be graded Details for cleaning.
I don’t have them back yet, but there were too many graded this way. Have others experienced this? Several were mint state NGC graded coins.
Comments?
0
Comments
Your thread title reads “NGS”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks…fixed
Ugh. That's terrible. In your opinion, which service is correct? Did you opt for TrueView service?
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If you crack out enough coins graded by one company and submit them to a different company, there’s an excellent chance that at some point, you’ll end up getting lower grades and/or detail-grade results. It’s just a matter of when and how often.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, the photos aren’t ready yet. When they are I will post some.
Opinions vary day to day. If you are going to play the crack out game you had better be prepared for every outcome.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Yes, and also have had ngc coins upgrade and downgrade.
In the future, it's better to send in for crossover if you don't want to risk a no grade. Lots of money can be lost from the original costs of the coin to all the fees associated with submitting and if you decide to resubmit in the future to either service again.
7 of 20 submitted were graded Details
3 of the 7 were NGC
4 of the 7 were old small white slabbed ANAC
1 was ING environmental damage
I could have mentally handled one each on ANAC and NGC, this seemed excessive.
1) Have someone who knows more than you whom you trust look at the coins before submitting them.
2) In Unc., the two have different priorities re what is more important on various types of coins. And opinions change with time / graders.
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A good rule is never crack unless you are 100% sure the coin will straight grade. Use the cross service if there is any doubt.
Sorry about the tough lesson. You have a lot of company.
Lance.
I bet that stung. Sorry.
It can go both ways though. I had a Seated Dollar I bought raw. Was rejected by NGC as cleaned. Holdered at PCSG in AU50.
Recently tried to cross a NGC 66 CAC Peace dollar at grade. Rejected. Cracked the holder, submitted raw to PCGS, came back artificial color. Resubmitted raw to NGC, came back MS67. Sold for big profit due to color premium.
I don't claim to be an expert at this game, rather I just got lucky. My advice is to buy the coin in the holder you prefer if the TPG matters to you for whatever reason. For me, I really dislike the NGC white prongs and this greatly influences my enjoyment of a coin's ownership. This is bad in the sense that there are great coins in NGC holders that may never be part of my collection.
It would help to know what type the coins were. If they were Morgan $s, the results would be surprising. If they were Bust halves, less so.
Also, were they toned?
I imagine the series and rarity might make a difference as well. Both grading companies tend to be "more" forgiving, i.e. find more things "market acceptable" when it comes to rarer and older coins.
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1807-1836 Capped Bust Half Dollars
I agree with you sir. NGC has the ugliest holder. Prongs and all encased plastic ruining the look of the coin. A shame, I can’t buy nice NGC coins either. Dumb marketing by NGC, they don’t understand aesthetics at all.
I'm very much less surprised. Virtually all of those have been dipped. It becomes a question of market acceptability of the dipping.
First, I'm sorry to hear that Herb. That's a painful experience. Hopefully some good will come of it in knowledge gained and a dedication to persevering and putting the coins you believe in in the holders they deserve.
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I actually think the opposite approach is better, and I too hate white prongs and will surely cross or crack some to put them in PCGS holders.
If the plastic and the bean and the assigned grade all went away, would I be happy with the coin as it was and would I want to keep in my collection for another day ...
... and did I pay a fair value (or something I was comfortable with) for what I thought was about right in the market ... ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY ...
... because ...
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I have cracked NGC details graded coins and gotten straight grades at PCGS. Results depend on the individual coins.
I just had a similar experience with PCGS. 3 of my 6 unc coins were holdered as cleaned. They all looked natural to me and MS65 quality. Maybe they are getting stricter.
I have heard PCGS is getting a tad stricter. I wonder if tad just means more borderline C coins are going to A coins the next grade down and a bit tighter on the borderline cleaning and AT stuff.
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PCGS is tougher on many Bust coins from what I've heard.
If they are in fact tightening their grading, perhaps too many of their coins are being rejected by CAC and people are complaining about it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
This is not surprising. As indicated by @MFeld, results obtained from different sets of graders can vary. Standards, - true, defined, measurable and repeatable standards - do not exist. Therefore, you are paying for a trained opinion. Cheers, RickO
I try to buy the coin and for a long time thought that those who quibble d over prongs and such were silly. Well, seems that perhaps I was wrong.
A kind person explaining why would I expect collectors who study coins with magnification, looking for flaws, not to have fairly strong opinions about holders. He further explained that the holder is part of the overall look and required for registry sets. He was nice enough to point out that obviously I knew little about the registry.
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I agree! It is straight up gambling. It may be better to not crack the coins out, and do the crossover. If I am correct, you can select on the PCGS crossover form to leave them in their current holder if you do not get a certain grade or number grade? While it cost more, you protect yourself from it coming back in a NEW holder with the "Details" grade.
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PCGS has been calling a lotta borderline coins cleaned lately. PCGS called one of my O/CC recently Unc Det Cleaned, NGC called it 65, I then crossed it to PCGS at 65 and now its pending CAC... Stuff like that.
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Everyone has a different level of risk when it comes to crack outs. A more conservative approach would have been to first submit your NGC coins to CAC. The ones that don’t sticker submit to PCGS as a cross over. The ones that sticker it depends how much gamble you have regarding cracking.
I feel like collecting early American coinage like these Bust Halves and other coins like Large Cents definitely takes an additional level of numismatic and grading knowledge to be successful. I've been collecting for 10 years and I feel like I'm just now at the point where I could begin to collect things like that without getting myself into trouble. The things other people have mentioned like the prevalence of cleaning and then the variability in quality when the coins were struck add some additional variables into the equation.
How comfortable and knowledgeable on the series did you consider yourself before you attempted to cross the coins?
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It is always a tough lesson when it hits you in the pocket book. Learn what is original skin in the coins you collect. If you only buy coins with original skin, it does make finding coins to collect more difficult.
Here are some photos of a NGC MS61 that was graded clean…..
What am I missing?
Here is another one…what am I missing?
Definitely dipped. Again, just a question of where the MA line lies.
I got my the grades for my next submittal. All of them came back straight graded. A few graded higher and some graded lower, but overall I am pleased. There was a total of 16 combination of old white ANAC and NGC. There was nothing special about these compared to the first batch.
How about this one? What am I missing on this one?
That's the worst of the bunch! It appears to have dip stain from being improperly rinsed after a dip.
Ha! This coin graded by NGC as AU55 was graded by PCGS as AU58……I guess it wasn’t the worse of the bunch after all. Thank you for your input.
It looked like the worst of the group to me, too. Im thinking maybe the images aren’t representative of what the coins look like.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The OP is right, everyone else is wrong.
Definitely dipped. Again, just depends where the MA line lies.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take home from this thread. You don't have to send coins to different companies to see weird grading results. It happens. Submit a borderline problem coin a dozen times to the same TPG and you might get a dozen different results. It happens to people who are expert graders. It happens even more often to people who aren't very good at grading. I don't really care for the overall look of any of the coins posted, but YMMV.
The images were created by Heritage.
Agreed, YMMV…..
Since I haven’t seen the coins in hand, I don’t know how they compare to the images. I’d say the same about anyone’s images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I submitted an NGC 1921 peace dollar graded AU55, cracked it and submitted to PCGS and it came back last week as PCGS XF40. Was expecting a drop,it was over graded imo, but not that much. I have cracked an ANACS coin and upgraded at PCGS, win some and lose some.
I just buy PCGS graded coins. I just don't need to go through what Herb is going through.
IF and I mean IF I ever send in a coin it will be for reconsideration only. I believe if I bought the coin in the 1st place is because "I" believed that the grade was accurate, but always would welcome an upgrade. No risk in doing that, Except, If you coin just afull grade, then I would have to deal CAC to get it stckered again. They will re-sticker the coin for a half point but nothing after that, It has to be looked at again.
It's just not a game I want to play
Considering what Heritage charges for a buyers premium there should never be a question about the integrity of the photos provided.
There is ALWAYS a question about photos.
Yes, your mad that your coins scored poorly. But there's really no point in just raging against everyone.
"MA line lies?" Can you explain further. please.
Herb,
I will try to get something started.
The 1826 has nice luster. On the obverse there appears to be some hairlines across the bust. A dip on this coin is not going to get it into a details cleaned holder. On the reverse there are some hairlines above the eagle. Under each of the wings in field, there is no luster that was maybe caused from a cleaning because there are some faint hairlines.
The 1825 on obverse has a dull look with no luster, but shows no signs of a cleaning. On the reverse, area around arrow heads shows a dip or cleaning. Above the eagle's neck there is a lighter spot with some lines that appear to be from cleaning.
The 1829 does not look original, but no signs of cleaning. I am glad you got a straight grade.