The 1826 has nice luster. On the obverse there appears to be some hairlines across the bust. A dip on this coin is not going to get it into a details cleaned holder. On the reverse there are some hairlines about the eagle. Under each of the wings in field, there is no luster that was maybe caused from a cleaning because there are some faint hairlines.
The 1825 on obverse has a dull look with no luster, but shows no signs of a cleaning. On the reverse, area around arrow heads shows a dip or cleaning. Above the eagle's neck there is a lighter spot with some lines that appear to be from cleaning.
The 1829 does not look original, but no signs of cleaning. I am glad you got a straight grade.
That helps a lot….only with coaching or spending a lot of money will I improve, I prefer to not spend a lot of money….I have already done that! Thank you!
Definitely dipped. Again, just depends where the MA line lies.
"MA line lies?" Can you explain further. please.
That also had me confused. I believe that MA stands for Market Acceptable. The possible artificial toning on a coin or the possible cleaning on a coin may get a pass if it's considered by the graders to be "Market Acceptable".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If a coin is in an N or P holder, with all the waits and expenses these days I just cannot see a rationale for submissions like this unless we are talking about a search for a real money grade which PCGS can justify sometimes as we know the market likes PCGS holders. I'd have run by cac to get JA's input before even thinking about a cross.
Herb,
I've read this post and some of your previous posts. Basically, the conclusions I've come away with is that you're paying too much tuition.
You're trying to understand grading, pricing, buying and selling, and the 200yr old type market in short order and it's a rocky road unless someone takes you under their wing.
I wish you good luck and I hope you have lots of dollars in reserve.
Your over all grades may be guilt by association. If a couple of your coins were clearly cleaned, then the graders start looking at your submission as being cleaned. You should consider resubmitting the 1826 with a couple nice original examples, and I bet that one will get a straight grade.
@logger7 said:
And I thought NGC was strict on bust coins.....
No. Nearly 20 years ago, NGC loosened standards on MS 65 CBH coins. I looked at many of them. On average, they appeared to me to be about 1/2 point looser than PCGS. This was reflected in blue sheet pricing on the coin in this grade between the services. So a solid 65 would be a solid 65 in either service, but if it was in an NGC holder, someone probably tried to get it into an NGC6 holder. Multiple times.
Shortly thereafter, I saw a number of colorfully toned CBHs in S 65 holders, and people (except for me, I avoided them) couldn't buy them fast enough, but that's another story.
PCGS and NGC have for the longest time have had different standards / tolerance levels re matters such as toning and color. You should be up to speed on this before buying an expensive slabbed coin.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@logger7 said:
And I thought NGC was strict on bust coins.....
No. Nearly 20 years ago, NGC loosened standards on MS 65 CBH coins. I looked at many of them. On average, they appeared to me to be about 1/2 point looser than PCGS. This was reflected in blue sheet pricing on the coin in this grade between the services. So a solid 65 would be a solid 65 in either service, but if it was in an NGC holder, someone probably tried to get it into an NGC6 holder. Multiple times.
Shortly thereafter, I saw a number of colorfully toned CBHs in S 65 holders, and people (except for me, I avoided them) couldn't buy them fast enough, but that's another story.
PCGS and NGC have for the longest time have had different standards / tolerance levels re matters such as toning and color. You should be up to speed on this before buying an expensive slabbed coin.
I meant not on numerical grading, but on no grades; I've seen PCGS straight grade a good number of coins that NGC has details graded in the bust, seated category etc..
There is something wrong for the grades on your coins. There appears to be some type of clerical error or someone new in the grading room. A couple show some minor cleaning issues, but should be considered market acceptable. You should send in your true view photos and old grades to PCGS and ask if some type of mistake happened. Maybe PCGS would be open to some type of grade reconsideration.
If those were all detailed, something had to have gone wrong.
I, and apparently many others, see no evidence that those coins should be detailed. While there may have been some slight cleaning that other members saw, it is certainly market acceptable.
There is something wrong for the grades on your coins. There appears to be some type of clerical error or someone new in the grading room. A couple show some minor cleaning issues, but should be considered market acceptable. You should send in your true view photos and old grades to PCGS and ask if some type of mistake happened. Maybe PCGS would be open to some type of grade reconsideration.
That is why I couldn’t believe the grades…..now shame on me for cracking and submitting versus Crossover submittal, ignorance on my part. But none the less I was scratching my head as I didn’t think I had missed those by that much. Especially when a second crack out submittal I had didn’t have any Details Graded.
It did seem to me that there were two different graders looking at the coins and the thought of a newbie crossed my mind.
@FlyingAl said:
If those were all detailed, something had to have gone wrong.
I, and apparently many others, see no evidence that those coins should be detailed. While there may have been some slight cleaning that other members saw, it is certainly market acceptable.
Thanks Al….and everyone else….I didn’t think I could have missed that many in one submittal of 20 coins. One coin I haven’t downloaded yet had environmental damage and I wasn’t surprised by that grading at all. That had been graded by Ing.
@logger7 said:
And I thought NGC was strict on bust coins.....
No. Nearly 20 years ago, NGC loosened standards on MS 65 CBH coins. I looked at many of them. On average, they appeared to me to be about 1/2 point looser than PCGS. This was reflected in blue sheet pricing on the coin in this grade between the services. So a solid 65 would be a solid 65 in either service, but if it was in an NGC holder, someone probably tried to get it into an NGC6 holder. Multiple times.
Shortly thereafter, I saw a number of colorfully toned CBHs in S 65 holders, and people (except for me, I avoided them) couldn't buy them fast enough, but that's another story.
PCGS and NGC have for the longest time have had different standards / tolerance levels re matters such as toning and color. You should be up to speed on this before buying an expensive slabbed coin.
I meant not on numerical grading, but on no grades; I've seen PCGS straight grade a good number of coins that NGC has details graded in the bust, seated category etc..
My earlier comment above stands re no grades as well. When I was looking for a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in low to mid AU range, I saw at least 20 straight graded NGC coins slabbed coins that I'd bet that PCGS would have bagged. It goes both ways.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
These are older NGC holders... probably from the 1996-2000 time frame. Why would you want crack them out or cross them? I really have no explanation for the results. I agree with those that panned the 1829.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
This is why I only buy coins that I like in holders that I like with grades that I agree with. I have no desire to play these slabbing games.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@logger7 said:
And I thought NGC was strict on bust coins.....
No. Nearly 20 years ago, NGC loosened standards on MS 65 CBH coins. I looked at many of them. On average, they appeared to me to be about 1/2 point looser than PCGS. This was reflected in blue sheet pricing on the coin in this grade between the services. So a solid 65 would be a solid 65 in either service, but if it was in an NGC holder, someone probably tried to get it into an NGC6 holder. Multiple times.
Shortly thereafter, I saw a number of colorfully toned CBHs in S 65 holders, and people (except for me, I avoided them) couldn't buy them fast enough, but that's another story.
PCGS and NGC have for the longest time have had different standards / tolerance levels re matters such as toning and color. You should be up to speed on this before buying an expensive slabbed coin.
I meant not on numerical grading, but on no grades; I've seen PCGS straight grade a good number of coins that NGC has details graded in the bust, seated category etc..
My earlier comment above stands re no grades as well. When I was looking for a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in low to mid AU range, I saw at least 20 straight graded NGC coins slabbed coins that I'd bet that PCGS would have bagged. It goes both ways.
Here is a 1799 $10 gold coin I once had:
The dealer I bought it from thought it was better, though in a PCGS MS61 slab. So cracked and submitted to NGC, it graded "bent" and was not slabbed. Resubmitted to PCGS it went back into a 61 holder. Also had a 3 cent silver nickel that PCGS graded 63, cracked as I thought it was better NGC called it AU details. Once again sent in to PCGS and graded 63 again. So clearly different views of coins from time to time.
Probably with the Bust coins here there are mistakes as there are probably too many to be something else.
@coinkat said:
These are older NGC holders... probably from the 1996-2000 time frame. Why would you want crack them out or cross them? I really have no explanation for the results. I agree with those that panned the 1829.
One never knows for sure what happens ... i have seen an NGC piece (either crossed over or cracked out ) and returned from PGCS at same grade .. then resubmitted back to NGC to be cross back to a newer NGC holder and it was coming back NET graded as cleaned ... but nothing was done in that time interval to deserve that change.
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Seeing these images, I think for sure it was a bad grouping. Some have issues, for sure. Some are enough that I think they should bag (or detail as the case is), but others may not. Some I think would grade 9 days out of 10, or more.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Cleaning is not something that can always be detected with images. Especially TV's. If I were you I'd take a hard look at each coin under a good halogen light, rotating the coin, and try to find the objectionable hairlines. Or the glossy look of a wipe with a jeweler's cloth.
If I felt a coin didn't get a fair shake I would resubmit it. Since NGC straight-graded them I'd guess that whatever problem PCGS saw was not blatant. Nothing terrible.
I'd try again. And I'll bet some straight-grade.
Lance.
Without studying each coin in depth, my impression of the founding fathers sale... not alot of pq coins.
Pretty low prices realized it looks like, even though recently auctions have been hot.
My point is, when you see a large group of coins mostly sell at discount prices, most bidders were not impressed. And you're probably not really looking at much crack out material there..
You gambled you lost. Just take the lesson and move on / don’t call that play again. Happened to me once. After that not a crackout / crossover guy at least specify minimum grade on form.
@Cougar1978 said:
You gambled you lost. Just take the lesson and move on / don’t call that play again. Happened to me once. After that not a crackout / crossover guy at least specify minimum grade on form.
He cracked the coins out, before submitting them. At that point, it wouldn’t have made any practical difference if he’d specified minimum grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Some people give up after a bad result and "move on". Bad decision. There is always another day if you believe you got a raw deal with evidence to back it up--and you have that in the form of a prior NGC submission where the coins graded well. There really isn't that much of a disparity between what gets in a straight graded holder at NGC and PCGS, though as others have pointed out the latter is stricter on numerical grading oftentimes. The finalizers have the final say and are usually strict.
It can go both ways though. I had a Seated Dollar I bought raw. Was rejected by NGC as cleaned. Holdered at PCSG in AU50.
Recently tried to cross a NGC 66 CAC Peace dollar at grade. Rejected. Cracked the holder, submitted raw to PCGS, came back artificial color. Resubmitted raw to NGC, came back MS67. Sold for big profit due to color premium.
I don't claim to be an expert at this game, rather I just got lucky. My advice is to buy the coin in the holder you prefer if the TPG matters to you for whatever reason. For me, I really dislike the NGC white prongs and this greatly influences my enjoyment of a coin's ownership. This is bad in the sense that there are great coins in NGC holders that may never be part of my collection.
@Catbert initially it didn’t matter to me what I bought, NGC-PCGS-ANAC, but I had decided to pursue PCGS Registry and that put me on the road to PCGS graded coins. Very clever by them as it helps to build their brand by creating demand for their graded coins and with the advent of the Everyman sets, it has become affordable for many more collectors.
This is a good thread. It shows in detail that different services have different standard, and just as graders come and go, so do the opinions of grading services.
I learned a long time ago, that if I buy what for me is an expensive coin, it stays in its current holder. Unless I've held it for many years and then will do an in holder upgrade attempt, because I have a safety net. I will not try to cross coins. The last time I successfully did this was in 1999, and enough is enough.
Dealing with cracking and resubmitting coins per the above, is often an example of aggravation and frustration. Yes you might get lucky every now and then. But why put yourself in the position of spending, say $5K on a coin, cracking it and having it bagged in the first place?
Lastly, if you want to try a same grade cross of an NGC coin to PCGS, someone who ought to know said you should make sure such NGC coin is in a pronged holder, because PCGS likes to see the rims on said coin.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Comments
I like the 1826 best out of the coins you posted, if there was cleaning is was very minor..
c> @slider23 said:
That helps a lot….only with coaching or spending a lot of money will I improve, I prefer to not spend a lot of money….I have already done that! Thank you!
Market Acceptable.
There is almost no 200 year old silver that has completely original surfaces.
That also had me confused. I believe that MA stands for Market Acceptable. The possible artificial toning on a coin or the possible cleaning on a coin may get a pass if it's considered by the graders to be "Market Acceptable".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If a coin is in an N or P holder, with all the waits and expenses these days I just cannot see a rationale for submissions like this unless we are talking about a search for a real money grade which PCGS can justify sometimes as we know the market likes PCGS holders. I'd have run by cac to get JA's input before even thinking about a cross.
Herb,
I've read this post and some of your previous posts. Basically, the conclusions I've come away with is that you're paying too much tuition.
You're trying to understand grading, pricing, buying and selling, and the 200yr old type market in short order and it's a rocky road unless someone takes you under their wing.
I wish you good luck and I hope you have lots of dollars in reserve.
Your over all grades may be guilt by association. If a couple of your coins were clearly cleaned, then the graders start looking at your submission as being cleaned. You should consider resubmitting the 1826 with a couple nice original examples, and I bet that one will get a straight grade.
Both of @slider23 's posts have a world of wisdom and insight in nice compact packages.
My 2c
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Have the TrueViews been posted?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
You make funny! I’m guessing 2 more weeks anyways…..I will post some when available.
TV’s showed up today! 4 weeks after I got the coins back! Here are the TVs….all below were judged cleaned by PCGS.
Was ANAC EF45, 2339719
Was NGC MS61, 692337-003
Was NGC MS64, 1706019-004
Was NGC MS61, 1701598-003
Was NGC AU58, 1744051-006
Was ANAC AU50, CD5892
Ouch, did they all get graded details?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Wow! That stings. Great looking tru-views that really show none of the cleaning problems.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
I’d wait a while, crack them out, and resubmit everything.
And I thought NGC was strict on bust coins.....
Then I don't know nothin'
BHNC #203
All the above did….some thought there was death by affiliation!
No. Nearly 20 years ago, NGC loosened standards on MS 65 CBH coins. I looked at many of them. On average, they appeared to me to be about 1/2 point looser than PCGS. This was reflected in blue sheet pricing on the coin in this grade between the services. So a solid 65 would be a solid 65 in either service, but if it was in an NGC holder, someone probably tried to get it into an NGC6 holder. Multiple times.
Shortly thereafter, I saw a number of colorfully toned CBHs in S 65 holders, and people (except for me, I avoided them) couldn't buy them fast enough, but that's another story.
PCGS and NGC have for the longest time have had different standards / tolerance levels re matters such as toning and color. You should be up to speed on this before buying an expensive slabbed coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I meant not on numerical grading, but on no grades; I've seen PCGS straight grade a good number of coins that NGC has details graded in the bust, seated category etc..
Herb,
There is something wrong for the grades on your coins. There appears to be some type of clerical error or someone new in the grading room. A couple show some minor cleaning issues, but should be considered market acceptable. You should send in your true view photos and old grades to PCGS and ask if some type of mistake happened. Maybe PCGS would be open to some type of grade reconsideration.
If those were all detailed, something had to have gone wrong.
I, and apparently many others, see no evidence that those coins should be detailed. While there may have been some slight cleaning that other members saw, it is certainly market acceptable.
Coin Photographer.
That is why I couldn’t believe the grades…..now shame on me for cracking and submitting versus Crossover submittal, ignorance on my part. But none the less I was scratching my head as I didn’t think I had missed those by that much. Especially when a second crack out submittal I had didn’t have any Details Graded.
It did seem to me that there were two different graders looking at the coins and the thought of a newbie crossed my mind.
Thanks Al….and everyone else….I didn’t think I could have missed that many in one submittal of 20 coins. One coin I haven’t downloaded yet had environmental damage and I wasn’t surprised by that grading at all. That had been graded by Ing.
i think you guys erroneously graded all my coins details, cleaned!
ok, thank you for your submission. NEXT!!!
My earlier comment above stands re no grades as well. When I was looking for a Heraldic Eagle Bust $ in low to mid AU range, I saw at least 20 straight graded NGC coins slabbed coins that I'd bet that PCGS would have bagged. It goes both ways.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
These are older NGC holders... probably from the 1996-2000 time frame. Why would you want crack them out or cross them? I really have no explanation for the results. I agree with those that panned the 1829.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
This is why I only buy coins that I like in holders that I like with grades that I agree with. I have no desire to play these slabbing games.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Here is a 1799 $10 gold coin I once had:
The dealer I bought it from thought it was better, though in a PCGS MS61 slab. So cracked and submitted to NGC, it graded "bent" and was not slabbed. Resubmitted to PCGS it went back into a 61 holder. Also had a 3 cent silver nickel that PCGS graded 63, cracked as I thought it was better NGC called it AU details. Once again sent in to PCGS and graded 63 again. So clearly different views of coins from time to time.
Probably with the Bust coins here there are mistakes as there are probably too many to be something else.
What 1829?
One never knows for sure what happens ... i have seen an NGC piece (either crossed over or cracked out ) and returned from PGCS at same grade .. then resubmitted back to NGC to be cross back to a newer NGC holder and it was coming back NET graded as cleaned ... but nothing was done in that time interval to deserve that change.
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
Seeing these images, I think for sure it was a bad grouping. Some have issues, for sure. Some are enough that I think they should bag (or detail as the case is), but others may not. Some I think would grade 9 days out of 10, or more.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Cleaning is not something that can always be detected with images. Especially TV's. If I were you I'd take a hard look at each coin under a good halogen light, rotating the coin, and try to find the objectionable hairlines. Or the glossy look of a wipe with a jeweler's cloth.
If I felt a coin didn't get a fair shake I would resubmit it. Since NGC straight-graded them I'd guess that whatever problem PCGS saw was not blatant. Nothing terrible.
I'd try again. And I'll bet some straight-grade.
Lance.
Without studying each coin in depth, my impression of the founding fathers sale... not alot of pq coins.
Pretty low prices realized it looks like, even though recently auctions have been hot.
My point is, when you see a large group of coins mostly sell at discount prices, most bidders were not impressed. And you're probably not really looking at much crack out material there..
Here's one hell of an exception though..
🤯
You gambled you lost. Just take the lesson and move on / don’t call that play again. Happened to me once. After that not a crackout / crossover guy at least specify minimum grade on form.
He cracked the coins out, before submitting them. At that point, it wouldn’t have made any practical difference if he’d specified minimum grades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Herb_T
What 1829?
I suppose the first page to this thread and the 1829 Bust Half in an NGC is merely what? Fake news? Seems it can't be a fake coin.
Your question back to me really fails to pass the straight face test... or in this case the straight grade test.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The first page was old news….and only had been resurrected to add TV photos.
Sort of like Rufus T. Firefly's Cabinet Meetings...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Some people give up after a bad result and "move on". Bad decision. There is always another day if you believe you got a raw deal with evidence to back it up--and you have that in the form of a prior NGC submission where the coins graded well. There really isn't that much of a disparity between what gets in a straight graded holder at NGC and PCGS, though as others have pointed out the latter is stricter on numerical grading oftentimes. The finalizers have the final say and are usually strict.
Upgrade to 58? Nice!
Pic of Peace Dollar, please
@Catbert initially it didn’t matter to me what I bought, NGC-PCGS-ANAC, but I had decided to pursue PCGS Registry and that put me on the road to PCGS graded coins. Very clever by them as it helps to build their brand by creating demand for their graded coins and with the advent of the Everyman sets, it has become affordable for many more collectors.
This is a good thread. It shows in detail that different services have different standard, and just as graders come and go, so do the opinions of grading services.
I learned a long time ago, that if I buy what for me is an expensive coin, it stays in its current holder. Unless I've held it for many years and then will do an in holder upgrade attempt, because I have a safety net. I will not try to cross coins. The last time I successfully did this was in 1999, and enough is enough.
Dealing with cracking and resubmitting coins per the above, is often an example of aggravation and frustration. Yes you might get lucky every now and then. But why put yourself in the position of spending, say $5K on a coin, cracking it and having it bagged in the first place?
Lastly, if you want to try a same grade cross of an NGC coin to PCGS, someone who ought to know said you should make sure such NGC coin is in a pronged holder, because PCGS likes to see the rims on said coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
In my Johnnie Cochran voice: If the grade doesn’t fit, you must resubmit. 😈
Good one!
This thread just reinforces the fact that there are no grading "standards". Its a crap shoot, and an expensive one at that
The thread really reinforces that grading is and will always have a subjective component. Subjectivity is not easy to handicap.
It further reinforces that the crack out game is not what it is cracked up to be...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.