A variety of opinions here... Not at all strange from a large group of collectors. Whether or not they are considered 'part of the series' is a personal decision, made by each collector (as evidenced by a thorough reading of this thread). Make your own decision, have fun... and remember, this is a hobby - or a business by many - but it is your choice. Cheers, RickO
If the Mint wants the coins to be part of a regular issue and not
a commem than they should have released them through the normal distribution channels Fed reserve / banks.
If there are proof coins then they are proofs of a commemorative.
The composition, marketing and distribution makes them a commemorative. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
@fathom said:
If the Mint wants the coins to be part of a regular issue and not
a commem than they should have released them through the normal distribution channels Fed reserve / banks.
If there are proof coins then they are proofs of a commemorative.
The composition, marketing and distribution makes them a commemorative. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck.
So it's not what the coin is composed of, its size, weight. It's denomination. Its design. And it's not the official name of the coin mint gives the coin on its website, its brochures, its packaging, or the mint's own Certificate of Authenticity.
The defining characteristic of whether or not a coin should be included in a series is how it is distributed. Can you tell that I'm not buying this argument?
Lots and lots of people posting here. And aside from pmh1nic 's argument (that the Peace was released and replaced the Morgan in the interim), which I'm open to debate--I can't think of any other instances where this has happened--the top arguments here against all seem to take the time tested and proven position of "Because".
That counts for your collection.
But that's not a valid numismatic argument for their exclusion in the Morgan series.
They are the right metal, the right design with no omissions or additions. They are the right size and weight. Produced by the United States Mint--which calls them Morgan Dollars.
These are Morgan silver dollars. These are part of the Morgan Dollar series.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@Weiss The fact that they come with a COA should be evidence enough that they aren’t part of the original Morgan Dollar series Did Morgan’s 100 years ago come with a COA? You’re blinded by confirmation bias
Also were original Morgan’s released under the “Coin Program?” These are modern commemoratives and will never be added to the original Morgan sets.
@HoldTheMayo said: @Weiss The fact that they come with a COA should be evidence enough that they aren’t part of the original Morgan Dollar series Did Morgan’s 100 years ago come with a COA? You’re blinded by confirmation bias
"That these come with a certificate of authenticity attesting to the fact that these are Morgan Silver Dollars is irrefutable evidence that these are NOT Morgan Silver Dollars."
I think I found the hole in your logic.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
"That these come with a certificate of authenticity attesting to the fact that these are Morgan Silver Dollars is irrefutable evidence that these are NOT Morgan Silver Dollars."
I think I found the hole in your logic.
I never said they aren’t Morgan’s. I said they will never be part of the original Morgan dollar set/series. Which was your argument in your original post. You are so fixated on size and dimensions you ignore other key factors that clearly demonstrate it’s a commemorative like it comes with a COA, and a fancy commemorative box
Include the coins in separate sets as I discussed above. That way everybody gets what they want. Everybody will be happy and we can all "teach the world to sing in perfect harmony,,,, I'd like to buy the world a coke and keep them company. It's the real thing,,,,,,,,COKE is" https://youtu.be/ib-Qiyklq-Q
@bombtech25 said:
If you didn't write so well I'd have guessed you were drunk and looking for a brawl.
@bombtech25 I double tapped from the IED phase at Eglin so I just have been salty every sense. But yes too much laced punch this halloween, I’ll be nice now
@HoldTheMayo said: @bombtech25 I double tapped from the IED phase at Eglin so I just have been salty every sense. But yes too much laced punch this halloween, I’ll be nice now
I went through IED's a few months after 9/11 and before we knew how important it would be. It was a breeze! Rolled in AEHs though if it makes you feel any better.
One of the allures of real Morgan Dollars, are their history.
The Morgan Silver Dollar - The Coin of The Wild West
When you think of the Wild West, you may picture gunslingers, cattle barons, riverboat gamblers, railroad tycoons, and dancehall queens. It was a time when money meant large, hefty silver dollars, not credit cards, and checkbooks that we carry today.
The Morgan Silver Dollar is one of the most iconic and collectible U.S. coins associated with the Wild West. Infamous outlaws like Jesse and Frank James as well as Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid often stole these oversized coins. It was said that sharpshooter Annie Oakley regularly shot holes through the Morgan silver dollar. It makes you start to wonder how many silver dollars Wyatt Earp threw across a saloon table while drinking and gambling. There is even a legend about Billy the Kid, who was carrying a brand new Morgan Silver Dollar in his pocket the night Pat Garrett shot him. Anyone who has a Morgan Silver Dollar in their collection may actually have a coin that passed through the hands of one of America’s most notorious Wild West outlaws! Heck, it’s said that Cowboys in the old west use to drop Morgan Silver Dollars in their canteens to preserve water on long trips.
IMO, every Morgan collector should have a 2021 in their collection as a perfect specimen, not as part of the collection, but for reference.
For me personally, I don't care for the 2 with 'privy' marks. The ones that were minted at the actual mints they were originally minted have more appeal. They have actual mint marks.
@fathom said:
If the Mint wants the coins to be part of a regular issue and not
a commem than they should have released them through the normal distribution channels Fed reserve / banks.
If there are proof coins then they are proofs of a commemorative.
The composition, marketing and distribution makes them a commemorative. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck.
So it's not what the coin is composed of, its size, weight. It's denomination. Its design. And it's not the official name of the coin mint gives the coin on its website, its brochures, its packaging, or the mint's own Certificate of Authenticity.
The defining characteristic of whether or not a coin should be included in a series is how it is distributed. Can you tell that I'm not buying this argument?
Lots and lots of people posting here. And aside from pmh1nic 's argument (that the Peace was released and replaced the Morgan in the interim), which I'm open to debate--I can't think of any other instances where this has happened--the top arguments here against all seem to take the time tested and proven position of "Because".
That counts for your collection.
But that's not a valid numismatic argument for their exclusion in the Morgan series.
They are the right metal, the right design with no omissions or additions. They are the right size and weight. Produced by the United States Mint--which calls them Morgan Dollars.
These are Morgan silver dollars. These are part of the Morgan Dollar series.
Look, I can argue both sides pretty convincingly.
I know it would be absurd for the Mint to release them through the regular banking system, but the optics are not good for a regular issue. Its just been too long. The world has changed too much. as far as silver bullion and circulating business strike coins etc. I love the idea behind it and I have purchased.... and look forward to more product along these lines.
No way by any stretch of imagination 2021 pieces part of Morgan Series lol. They may be good as nice bullion pieces but I would never pay more than an ASE for them.
Have they already started going down…I hear they in red or on way.
@Cougar1978 said:
No way by any stretch of imagination 2021 pieces part of Morgan Series lol. They may be good as nice bullion pieces but I would never pay more than an ASE for them.’
This seems to be the typical argument. But it's missing my point entirely:
While you are free to include or exclude them from your own collection, based on how much or how little you like them, there is no rational numismatic reason to exclude what are by definition Morgan silver dollars from the Morgan silver dollar series.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@Cougar1978 said:
No way by any stretch of imagination 2021 pieces part of Morgan Series lol. They may be good as nice bullion pieces but I would never pay more than an ASE for them.’
This seems to be the typical argument. But it's missing my point entirely:
While you are free to include or exclude them from your own collection, based on how much or how little you like them, there is no rational numismatic reason to exclude what are by definition Morgan silver dollars from the Morgan silver dollar series.
It appears that you strongly believe the coins should be (and are) part of the Morgan dollar series and that you want others to agree with you. But even if you’re not open to them, you’ve been given numerous rational reasons why it’s reasonable to believe that the coins shouldn’t be part of the Morgan dollar series.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It appears that you strongly believe the coins should be (and are) part of the Morgan dollar series and that you want others to agree with you. But even if you’re not open to them, you’ve been given numerous rational reasons why it’s reasonable to believe that the coins shouldn’t be part of the Morgan dollar series.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't collect Morgans. I have one in my box of 20 that is a representation of the series. @jmlanzaf 's poll a few days ago asked the question if the 2021s are part of the series. The overwhelming response was "no".
I understand the question or choices might have been changed. And I understand wholeheartedly why people--especially Morgan dollar collectors--would choose not to include them.
But I have yet to see a valid numismatic reason. And I disagree with your position that I've been given numerous rational reasons. None of them hold water.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
You make solid points, but the coins were issued as commemoratives and not as business strike coins. For me that makes them distinguishable. And yes there were proof Morgan Dollars not made for circulation but those are proof versions of coins/designs that were intended to circulate. I think these should be counted as modern silver commemoratives.
Now if the Mint were to circulate these or more likely create clad versions for circulation, I would agree that the coins would be an extension of the Morgan series just as clad Roosevelt dimes and clad Washington quarters are part of the same series as their silver cousins.
@cameonut2011 said:
You make solid points, but the coins were issued as commemoratives and not as business strike coins. For me that makes them distinguishable. And yes there were proof Morgan Dollars not made for circulation but those are proof versions of coins/designs that were intended to circulate. I think these should be counted as modern silver commemoratives.
Now if the Mint were to circulate these or more likely create clad versions for circulation, I would agree that the coins would be an extension of the Morgan series just as clad Roosevelt dimes and clad Washington quarters are part of the same series as their silver cousins.
Clad versions is an interesting theoretical, and one I almost proposed: Would clad Morgans, which would necessarily be of a different alloy than the original Morgan, a different size or weight (or both) of the original Morgan, be more welcome by the numismatic community than the extant 2021s which are virtually identical to the original Morgans in every aspect?
Ultimately I decided not to ask this question, because it didn't further my argument
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
Here’s an idea:
1. Let the prices crash.
2. Buy them all cheaply after the crash.
3. Convince or pay off the Redbook editors and registry set people to include them in the series.
4. Cha-Ching!
Edited: Special bonus if you can convince JA to sticker them!
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
I changed my mind after seeing them compared side by side I feel they are definitely part of the set
Will the 2021s be thrown into bags and stored to back Silver Certificates?
No? Then they aren’t silver dollars like Morgan/Peace 1878-1935.
I don’t care how much of a tantrum and whaling and gnashing of teeth is involved.
@cointime said:
Just a thought for discussion, from Coin Facts....
It's neat that the Mint's special deals in the past resulted in special coins. The special deals today may result in special profits but not necessarily special coins.
I'm not trying to make the news, just reporting it - The Zerbe '21 Morgan $ was not released into circulation. It was not like prior proofs, yet compared more like regular circ strikes. Should these not be included in the Registry sets? An expensive coin that is not in all Morgan $ sets but is included in some sets.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Better start writing some legislation because that’s what it’s going to take 😳
Even with completely new sculpts, I can see new sculptor or engraver, but to me the design is still Morgan’s.
From your article, the designs were done by high resolution scanning:
The coins honoring the Morgan and Peace dollars are to have obverse and reverse designs that are renditions of the designs historically used. The Mint has returned to original assets to develop accurate renditions of the original Morgan and Peace Dollars to be issued in 2021.
A restoration process, high-resolution scanning, and mapping to relief targets and planchets were all employed in the designs’ recreation. The coins will be struck on the same planchet as is used for current commemorative silver dollars. This will result in the same weight, thickness and diameter specifications as the original Morgan and Peace dollars.
I think I will go have another cup of coffee before commenting.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
The 1932 Washington quarter quickly lost its commemorative status as subsequent years' coins were issued.
If the Mint continues these dollars in 2022 and beyond, they will likely become more accepted as part of the original series.
If they remain a one-off anniversary tribute, they will likely be considered a very successful marketing accomplishment by the Mint, but not part of the original series.
If the 1921 Morgan Silver Dollar was only a 'commemorative' why was it not minted just in Philadelphia? Coins minted in Denver and Other certainly made it in to circulation; did they not?
From PCGS (Q. David Bowers):
"Circulated grades: Worn 1921 dollars are extremely common. Probably, 10 to 15 million exist. Time was in the mid-1960s when the majority of dollars seen at Nevada gaming tables were 1921 dollars (Philadelphia coins primarily, but also Denver and San Francisco Morgan dollars). Many millions were melted in the run-up of silver bullion prices during the 1970s."
A funny end to a coin being called a 'Commemorative'.
@AlexinPA said:
If the 1921 Morgan Silver Dollar was only a 'commemorative' why was it not minted just in Philadelphia? Coins minted in Denver and Other certainly made it in to circulation; did they not?
From PCGS (Q. David Bowers):
"Circulated grades: Worn 1921 dollars are extremely common. Probably, 10 to 15 million exist. Time was in the mid-1960s when the majority of dollars seen at Nevada gaming tables were 1921 dollars (Philadelphia coins primarily, but also Denver and San Francisco Morgan dollars). Many millions were melted in the run-up of silver bullion prices during the 1970s."
A funny end to a coin being called a 'Commemorative'.
Although casino use is circulation, it's almost like being used as a token.
Classic commemorative half dollars also made it into circulation, even after being issued at a premium.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Then we will need some new legislation. Nothing planned in current document.
And the privy marked ones would not to be considered as the real deal because the Philly mint produced “O” and “CC” privy marks to pay homage to the original coins’ production at the former New Orleans and Carson City Mints.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
I changed my mind after seeing them compared side by side I feel they are definitely part of the set
Will the 2021s be thrown into bags and stored to back Silver Certificates?
No? Then they aren’t silver dollars like Morgan/Peace 1878-1935.
I don’t care how much of a tantrum and whaling and gnashing of teeth is involved.
Ok but most of the Morgan where stored because of the mint producing way more than was needed for circulation to keep silver prices artificially inflated I think that was a truly unique situation in history
I think time will tell how they are treated I think there are convincing arguments ether way but they do have one dollar stamped on them making them legally tender just like the original Morgan’s
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
Did you see my Pilgrim half dollar above? 😀
Yes, but being spent doesn't make it any less a commemorative issue, just like spending a contemporary counterfeit doesn't make it any less fake.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
Did you see my Pilgrim half dollar above? 😀
Yes, but being spent doesn't make it any less a commemorative issue, just like spending a contemporary counterfeit doesn't make it any less fake.
In which case 1921 Peace dollars and 1932 Washington quarters are commemoratives
Most of the 2021 Morgans I received look just like the real thing..... They look like they came from a canvas bag that rode over a rough road for 500-miles. Junk, pure junk. The US Mint should be ashamed for sending out coins with contact marks and planchet flaws that are eye visible. The Peace dollars I received were fine but a full 1/2 of what I received on the Morgan series of mint marks were very, very low quality. Sad! At $85 each for a (not rare) one ounce collector coin is absurd.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
Did you see my Pilgrim half dollar above? 😀
Yes, but being spent doesn't make it any less a commemorative issue, just like spending a contemporary counterfeit doesn't make it any less fake.
In which case 1921 Peace dollars and 1932 Washington quarters are commemoratives
No, they are regular issues with a commemorative theme. The purpose of making the coins was simply to coin silver as money.
@jabba said:
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
Did you see my Pilgrim half dollar above? 😀
Yes, but being spent doesn't make it any less a commemorative issue, just like spending a contemporary counterfeit doesn't make it any less fake.
In which case 1921 Peace dollars and 1932 Washington quarters are commemoratives
No, they are regular issues with a commemorative theme. The purpose of making the coins was simply to coin silver as money.
The Washington Quarter was also intended to replace the SLQ which was hard to strike.
Comments
A variety of opinions here... Not at all strange from a large group of collectors. Whether or not they are considered 'part of the series' is a personal decision, made by each collector (as evidenced by a thorough reading of this thread). Make your own decision, have fun... and remember, this is a hobby - or a business by many - but it is your choice. Cheers, RickO
If the Mint wants the coins to be part of a regular issue and not
a commem than they should have released them through the normal distribution channels Fed reserve / banks.
If there are proof coins then they are proofs of a commemorative.
The composition, marketing and distribution makes them a commemorative. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck.
Why? Whether it was the Bland-Allison (1878), Sherman (1890), Pittman (1918), Federal Emergency Relief Act (1933), all Morgan and Peace dollars were made to convert silver into silver dollars as monetary policy. The 2021 Morgan was made as a commemorative souvenir.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
So it's not what the coin is composed of, its size, weight. It's denomination. Its design. And it's not the official name of the coin mint gives the coin on its website, its brochures, its packaging, or the mint's own Certificate of Authenticity.
The defining characteristic of whether or not a coin should be included in a series is how it is distributed. Can you tell that I'm not buying this argument?
Lots and lots of people posting here. And aside from pmh1nic 's argument (that the Peace was released and replaced the Morgan in the interim), which I'm open to debate--I can't think of any other instances where this has happened--the top arguments here against all seem to take the time tested and proven position of "Because".
That counts for your collection.
But that's not a valid numismatic argument for their exclusion in the Morgan series.
They are the right metal, the right design with no omissions or additions. They are the right size and weight. Produced by the United States Mint--which calls them Morgan Dollars.
These are Morgan silver dollars. These are part of the Morgan Dollar series.
--Severian the Lame
@Weiss The fact that they come with a COA should be evidence enough that they aren’t part of the original Morgan Dollar series
Did Morgan’s 100 years ago come with a COA? You’re blinded by confirmation bias
Also were original Morgan’s released under the “Coin Program?” These are modern commemoratives and will never be added to the original Morgan sets.
"That these come with a certificate of authenticity attesting to the fact that these are Morgan Silver Dollars is irrefutable evidence that these are NOT Morgan Silver Dollars."
I think I found the hole in your logic.
--Severian the Lame
I never said they aren’t Morgan’s. I said they will never be part of the original Morgan dollar set/series. Which was your argument in your original post. You are so fixated on size and dimensions you ignore other key factors that clearly demonstrate it’s a commemorative like it comes with a COA, and a fancy commemorative box
Include the coins in separate sets as I discussed above. That way everybody gets what they want. Everybody will be happy and we can all "teach the world to sing in perfect harmony,,,, I'd like to buy the world a coke and keep them company. It's the real thing,,,,,,,,COKE is"
https://youtu.be/ib-Qiyklq-Q
If you didn't write so well I'd have guessed you were drunk and looking for a brawl.
@bombtech25 I double tapped from the IED phase at Eglin so I just have been salty every sense. But yes too much laced punch this halloween, I’ll be nice now
One of the allures of real Morgan Dollars, are their history.
The Morgan Silver Dollar - The Coin of The Wild West
When you think of the Wild West, you may picture gunslingers, cattle barons, riverboat gamblers, railroad tycoons, and dancehall queens. It was a time when money meant large, hefty silver dollars, not credit cards, and checkbooks that we carry today.
The Morgan Silver Dollar is one of the most iconic and collectible U.S. coins associated with the Wild West. Infamous outlaws like Jesse and Frank James as well as Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid often stole these oversized coins. It was said that sharpshooter Annie Oakley regularly shot holes through the Morgan silver dollar. It makes you start to wonder how many silver dollars Wyatt Earp threw across a saloon table while drinking and gambling. There is even a legend about Billy the Kid, who was carrying a brand new Morgan Silver Dollar in his pocket the night Pat Garrett shot him. Anyone who has a Morgan Silver Dollar in their collection may actually have a coin that passed through the hands of one of America’s most notorious Wild West outlaws! Heck, it’s said that Cowboys in the old west use to drop Morgan Silver Dollars in their canteens to preserve water on long trips.
Rest of the article here: https://uscoinsandjewelry.com/blog/the-morgan-silver-dollar-the-coin-of-the-wild-west
IMO, every Morgan collector should have a 2021 in their collection as a perfect specimen, not as part of the collection, but for reference.
For me personally, I don't care for the 2 with 'privy' marks. The ones that were minted at the actual mints they were originally minted have more appeal. They have actual mint marks.
Look, I can argue both sides pretty convincingly.
I know it would be absurd for the Mint to release them through the regular banking system, but the optics are not good for a regular issue. Its just been too long. The world has changed too much. as far as silver bullion and circulating business strike coins etc. I love the idea behind it and I have purchased.... and look forward to more product along these lines.
No way by any stretch of imagination 2021 pieces part of Morgan Series lol. They may be good as nice bullion pieces but I would never pay more than an ASE for them.
Have they already started going down…I hear they in red or on way.
This seems to be the typical argument. But it's missing my point entirely:
While you are free to include or exclude them from your own collection, based on how much or how little you like them, there is no rational numismatic reason to exclude what are by definition Morgan silver dollars from the Morgan silver dollar series.
--Severian the Lame
It appears that you strongly believe the coins should be (and are) part of the Morgan dollar series and that you want others to agree with you. But even if you’re not open to them, you’ve been given numerous rational reasons why it’s reasonable to believe that the coins shouldn’t be part of the Morgan dollar series.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I just want to add that I hope they get wild rainbow toning like the originals
I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't collect Morgans. I have one in my box of 20 that is a representation of the series.
@jmlanzaf 's poll a few days ago asked the question if the 2021s are part of the series. The overwhelming response was "no".
I understand the question or choices might have been changed. And I understand wholeheartedly why people--especially Morgan dollar collectors--would choose not to include them.
But I have yet to see a valid numismatic reason. And I disagree with your position that I've been given numerous rational reasons. None of them hold water.
--Severian the Lame
But Morgan didnt design the 2021s. How could they be part of his series?
You make solid points, but the coins were issued as commemoratives and not as business strike coins. For me that makes them distinguishable. And yes there were proof Morgan Dollars not made for circulation but those are proof versions of coins/designs that were intended to circulate. I think these should be counted as modern silver commemoratives.
Now if the Mint were to circulate these or more likely create clad versions for circulation, I would agree that the coins would be an extension of the Morgan series just as clad Roosevelt dimes and clad Washington quarters are part of the same series as their silver cousins.
Clad versions is an interesting theoretical, and one I almost proposed: Would clad Morgans, which would necessarily be of a different alloy than the original Morgan, a different size or weight (or both) of the original Morgan, be more welcome by the numismatic community than the extant 2021s which are virtually identical to the original Morgans in every aspect?
Ultimately I decided not to ask this question, because it didn't further my argument
--Severian the Lame
Here’s an idea:
1. Let the prices crash.
2. Buy them all cheaply after the crash.
3. Convince or pay off the Redbook editors and registry set people to include them in the series.
4. Cha-Ching!
Edited: Special bonus if you can convince JA to sticker them!
Really? Could have fooled me!
If not George Morgan, who designed them?
Will the 2021s be thrown into bags and stored to back Silver Certificates?
No? Then they aren’t silver dollars like Morgan/Peace 1878-1935.
I don’t care how much of a tantrum and whaling and gnashing of teeth is involved.
Just a thought for discussion, from Coin Facts....
My Washington Type B/C Set
It's neat that the Mint's special deals in the past resulted in special coins. The special deals today may result in special profits but not necessarily special coins.
Very true, and the coins were not minted for circulation, same planchets, Special Polished dies - sounds almost like a commemorative coin
Right?
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
I'm not trying to make the news, just reporting it - The Zerbe '21 Morgan $ was not released into circulation. It was not like prior proofs, yet compared more like regular circ strikes. Should these not be included in the Registry sets? An expensive coin that is not in all Morgan $ sets but is included in some sets.
https://pcgs.com/cert/40276213
http:/https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/230694/
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/dollars/morgan-dollars-specialty-sets/morgan-dollars-complete-variety-set-branch-mints-proof-1878-1921/2998
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
I suspect he is pulling our legs.
What if this becomes an ongoing series?
Better start writing some legislation because that’s what it’s going to take 😳
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
These are renditions based on the original. A new artist was surely involved.
https://www.numismaticnews.net/us-coins/2021-morgan-peace-designs-revealed
Even with completely new sculpts, I can see new sculptor or engraver, but to me the design is still Morgan’s.
From your article, the designs were done by high resolution scanning:
I think I will go have another cup of coffee before commenting.
Then it will be an ongoing series of commemoratives (cf., Oregon Trail, Texas, BTW, ...).
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Also like the Peace dollar or Washington quarter.
Then we will need some new legislation. Nothing planned in current document.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The 1932 Washington quarter quickly lost its commemorative status as subsequent years' coins were issued.
If the Mint continues these dollars in 2022 and beyond, they will likely become more accepted as part of the original series.
If they remain a one-off anniversary tribute, they will likely be considered a very successful marketing accomplishment by the Mint, but not part of the original series.
If the 1921 Morgan Silver Dollar was only a 'commemorative' why was it not minted just in Philadelphia? Coins minted in Denver and Other certainly made it in to circulation; did they not?
From PCGS (Q. David Bowers):
"Circulated grades: Worn 1921 dollars are extremely common. Probably, 10 to 15 million exist. Time was in the mid-1960s when the majority of dollars seen at Nevada gaming tables were 1921 dollars (Philadelphia coins primarily, but also Denver and San Francisco Morgan dollars). Many millions were melted in the run-up of silver bullion prices during the 1970s."
A funny end to a coin being called a 'Commemorative'.
Although casino use is circulation, it's almost like being used as a token.
Classic commemorative half dollars also made it into circulation, even after being issued at a premium.
These were sold at a premium:
And the privy marked ones would not to be considered as the real deal because the Philly mint produced “O” and “CC” privy marks to pay homage to the original coins’ production at the former New Orleans and Carson City Mints.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Ok but most of the Morgan where stored because of the mint producing way more than was needed for circulation to keep silver prices artificially inflated I think that was a truly unique situation in history
I think time will tell how they are treated I think there are convincing arguments ether way but they do have one dollar stamped on them making them legally tender just like the original Morgan’s
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
There seems to be confusion between coins meant for commerce that bore designs commemorating something (1909 Lincoln cent, 2009 Lincoln cents, 1921 Peace dollar, 1932 Washington quarter), and coins that were struck strictly as commemoratives or "souvenir coins" as the Columbian halves were called in 1892. The former are coined as money to be released into the money supply at face value, the latter as souvenirs with an essentially symbolic face value to be sold to collectors at a profit.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Did you see my Pilgrim half dollar above? 😀
Yes, but being spent doesn't make it any less a commemorative issue, just like spending a contemporary counterfeit doesn't make it any less fake.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In which case 1921 Peace dollars and 1932 Washington quarters are commemoratives
Most of the 2021 Morgans I received look just like the real thing..... They look like they came from a canvas bag that rode over a rough road for 500-miles. Junk, pure junk. The US Mint should be ashamed for sending out coins with contact marks and planchet flaws that are eye visible. The Peace dollars I received were fine but a full 1/2 of what I received on the Morgan series of mint marks were very, very low quality. Sad! At $85 each for a (not rare) one ounce collector coin is absurd.
They are just junk!
No, they are regular issues with a commemorative theme. The purpose of making the coins was simply to coin silver as money.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The Washington Quarter was also intended to replace the SLQ which was hard to strike.