The 2021 Morgan Dollars are absolutely, positively part of the Morgan dollar series.
Weiss
Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
Of course the 2021 Morgans are part of the regular Morgan dollar series. To suggest they aren't is ridiculous.
The 2021 Morgans aren't of a different metal. Their composition is much, much closer to the classic Morgans than the radical difference between a 1965 Roosevelt dime, a 1965 Washington quarter, or a 1971 Kennedy half to their 1964 counterparts.
And they are far closer to their earlier strikings than a war nickel is to the standard Jefferson nickel series, a 40% Kennedy is to the 1964s, or the silver-clad Eisenhowers are to the rest of that series. If collectors of these series don't shun these substantial composition differences, how can Morgan collectors shun a slightly more pure Morgan?
What about their size? At 38.1mm in diameter, the 2021 Morgan is precisely the same size as the classic Morgan.
Their weight? Virtually identical: 26.68 grams vs. 26.73 grams.
The 2021 Morgan has a slightly different design than classic Morgans. But there are countless VAMs in that series, including some that were intentionally struck as such and are visible with the naked eye, that are enthusiastically collected--not rejected--by Morgan collectors. You could argue the 1921 Morgan design is substantially different, too, and nobody would dream of rejecting the 1921s from that series.
The 2021 is not a true "business strike". But neither were the thousands of proof classic Morgans.
The 2021 Morgan has a semi-matte finish. But so do the 1993 and 1997 special Jeffersons and the 1998 matte Kennedy. These examples are sought-after by those series' collectors, not rejected.
The 2021 Morgans are the same design, the same metal, and the same dimension as the classic Morgans. That sets them miles apart from recently resurrected classic designs by the US Mint:
A business strike Walking Liberty half is 90% silver and 12.5 grams @ 30.6 mm.
The 2016 Walking Liberty half? .9999 gold, 25% heavier and 10% smaller at 15.552 grams and 27mm.
And the US Mint calls this piece the "Walking Liberty 2016 Centennial Gold Coin"
A business strike Standing Liberty quarter is 90% silver and 6.25 grams @ 24.3mm.
The 2016 SL quarter? .9999 gold, 24% heavier and 10% smaller at 7.776 grams and 22mm.
And the US Mint calls this piece the "Standing Liberty 2016 Centennial Gold Coin"
A business strike Mercury dime is made of 90% silver, with a weight of 2.5 grams and a diameter of 17.9mm.
The 2016 Mercury dime? .9999 gold. It's 25% heavier @ 3.11 grams and nearly 10% smaller at 16.5mm.
And The US Mint calls this piece the "Mercury Dime 2016 Centennial Gold Coin"
A business strike 1964 Kennedy half is 90% silver, with a weight of 12.5 grams.
The 2014 Gold Kennedy? It's in .9999 gold. It's 23.33 grams--nearly twice the weight of a silver Kennedy. It's in high relief. It has substantial added verbiage. AND it has the commemorative date of 1964-2014.
What about the gold eagle or silver eagles? Completely different reverse: these can't even be part of the discussion.
What about the time lapse between strikings? US coinage has many examples of skipped or missing years--including the near 2-decade span between the 1904 Morgan and the 1921 Morgan.
And finally:
Nowhere on the Mint's website, nowhere in the Mint's packaging or COA, does the Mint call the 2021 Morgan a "tribute" or a "commemorative". To the United States Mint, they are simply a "Morgan 2021 Silver Dollar". Check for yourself:
https://catalog.usmint.gov/morgan-2021-silver-dollar-with-cc-privy-mark-21XC.html?cgid=null&q=2021%20morgan&navid=search#q=2021%20morgan&start=1
So by what logic or reason can you possible reject the 2021 Morgans from the series? Same metal, same design, same dimension, same weight. Acceptable composition. Acceptable finish. No added verbiage or "commemorative" date.
And the US Mint doesn't differentiate them in any way.
Now you can choose not to include them in your set of Morgan dollars. But that just means your set will be incomplete.
--Severian the Lame
Comments
PCGS lists them in the modern silver & clad commemorative section of the Pop Report, which is where I agree they belong.
Cool story, but one point proof Morgans aren’t included in the business strike sets. These are business strikes either
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Says who? PCGS?
The Red Book lists the proofs right alongside every other Morgan, just as they do for every other US coin ever minted and as they have for the last 3/4 of a century.
--Severian the Lame
What a collection consists of is really up to the collector. So every voice is just noise, some like PCGS carry more weight to include even the redbook which is past it’s prime. I don’t think what they do for space efficiency is relevant
That said anyone who can afford a complete collection of Morgan will most likely get a set of the cheaper and common Morgan commemoratives
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
In case it's missed here: I'm asking for an academic reason, a logical reason, a numismatic reason, why the 2021 Morgans shouldn't be included in the Morgan Dollar series.
Stating that organization X or Y doesn't include them (yet) within their internally generated parameters isn't a valid argument. It's just the opinion of that organization.
Stating that you won't include them in your set isn't persuasive either, unless you have a logical reason for that decision.
Again, you have every right to not include them. You may just plain hate the year 2021 (and there are plenty or reasons why we all feel that way). But that isn't a valid numismatic argument for exclusion.
--Severian the Lame
People can debate this turn they turn blue. There are solid points on either side.
Then there is the use of "series" vs "set".
In the end, our hosts list them as commemoratives, and how that impacts the "series" and "set" discussion remains to be seen.
I will add this: the CC privy Morgan is nothing but a curiosity....minted in Philadelphia, using non-Comstock silver, commemorating a mint that did not produce Morgan dollars in 1971, 1921, 1871, or 1821 (both 50 year and 100 year increments). Nope - not part of the CC Morgan series, and perhaps only a curiosity added to an individual's Carson City Morgan set.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Maybe they will make bust dollars next.Will they be a part of the original series?
Well, my take on it is that if coins could talk, most Morgans would have many stories over a hundred years old to regale.
The only thing the 2021 Morgans would be able to say is their life inside a box for the first few days being shipped from the mint and thereafter to be slabbed etc. to finally end up back in the box, getting buried deep in the safe till it exchanges hands when sold.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
If the US Mint can strike a silver dollar 30 years after the series ended and have it literally become "The King of United States Coins", I think you could argue a new bust dollar could and should be part of the original series. Just as the 2021 Morgans are part of the original series.
--Severian the Lame
After time to consider it I believe it should not be considered part of the regular Morgan dollar series. These 2021 pieces were not issued at face value and are not intended for commerce. That, to me, is enough to put them into a separate category. I also do not agree with those who put the privy O and CC with the respective mintmark series.
Other people and entities may certainly see it differently and that’s ok. It’s just how I see it.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
It's a legitimate opinion. But no proof coin has ever been issued at face value or intended for commerce.
--Severian the Lame
All of your points notwithstanding, the 1921 Morgan’s weren’t made to be used in commerce. So to me, they’re not part of the Morgan dollar series, other than as a separate category, as I consider Proofs to be.
And for the record, to suggest that it’s “ridiculous” “to suggest they aren’t” is ridiculous.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And most people would see the proofs as their own series as well. But as they were contemporaneous with business strikes, and didn’t cost much more, it’s reasonable to say they are more alike than not.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
The above eluded to 1804 dollar is an example of how this hasn't been the case in the past.
It certainly wasn't designed to circulate. It was struck specifically for collectors. It wasn't contemporaneous with business strikes. But it's been seen as the ultimate US coin for a century or more.
If the anatomically correct but1835-struck "1804" dated bust dollar is part of the bust dollar series, how could the otherwise identical but correctly dated 2021 Morgan not be included in the Morgan dollar series?
--Severian the Lame
1904 is the last Morgan in the series. The 1921 & 2021 Both a kind of tribute. Not for circulation. One thing that all these posts are proving is that calling your dang collection and coins,series,set,etc., what ever ,will work fine if you don’t want to communicate with others. A common definition and language sure helps. These days making a reality based in some sort of common sense is becoming a lost art 😳🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I think that the 1804 dollars should be considered a separate category of or from the bust dollar series. That is for those who don’t already consider them as such.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Being 100 years removed from the last originals and having that design replaced by the Peace Dollars is enough for me not to consider it part of the series.
PCGS disagrees. The Red Book punts. That seems reason enough to include rather than exclude the 2021 Morgans.
--Severian the Lame
It might be reason enough for you, but not for me.
The grading companies have come up with a lot of registry “sets” that some collectors apparently feel compelled to pursue. But many of those “sets” aren’t necessarily what most hobbyists considered/consider “sets”, in the traditional sense. I feel that various types of specially made coins, such as patterns, specimen strikes, novadels, fantasy pieces, proofs, etc. should be categorized separately from sets of coins that were produced for commerce. I realize that others will disagree, but that doesn’t make my view “ridiculous”. Nor do I feel that their opinions are such.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you don’t think they belong then I guess the blue Ike’s do not belong to the Ike series .... to me that’s the best analogy.
I do wish they stuck them in the same way as the earlier Morgan’s instead of using a commemorative-type surface but otherwise these ARE Morgan dollars - I agree.
I have no problem with the P, D & S mint pieces being included in the series. Privy marked CC & O pieces not so much.
e·lude
/ēˈlo͞od/
verb
evade or escape from (a danger, enemy, or pursuer), typically in a skillful or cunning way.
al·lude
/əˈlo͞od/
verb
suggest or call attention to indirectly; hint at.
A 2021 morgan commemorative is certainly NOT a part of the Morgan series. It is an overpriced modern piece of gutter metal. PCGS has placed it in the proper category.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Be they what they may, it comes down to how collectors want to collect them. If they're collected as modern commemoratives, then that's what they are. By not putting them in the Morgan dollar registry sets, PCGS is betting that their base is going to agree that they're more commemoratives than anything else.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Not part of the Morgan series. It's a single year issue. Read the contents of PUBLIC LAW 116–286, 1921 Silver Dollar Coin Anniversary Act. Please note that each "shall" must be adhered to by the Secretary of the Treasury, who then directs the Director of the Mint with the terms of PUBLIC LAW 116–286. In other words, the U.S. Mint must adhere to PUBLIC LAW 116–286. https://congress.gov/116/plaws/publ330/PLAW-116publ330.pdf
PUBLIC LAW 116–286, SEC 3. COIN SPECIFICATION, states the requirements for the 1921 Silver
Dollar Coin Anniversary Act.
The text "... shall mint and issue $1 coins in recognition of the 100th anniversary of completion
of coinage of the Morgan dollar and the 100th anniversary of commencement of coinage of the Peace dollar..."
PUBLIC LAW 116–286, SEC. 4. DESIGN OF COINS, states the design requirements.
The text "...The designs of the coins minted under this Act shall honor either the Morgan dollar or the Peace dollar, as follows..."
"(A) MORGAN DOLLAR.—The coins honoring the 100th anniversary of completion of coinage of the Morgan dollar shall have an obverse design and a reverse design that are renditions of the designs historically used on the obverse and reverse of the Morgan dollar .
(B) PEACE DOLLAR.—The coins honoring the 100th anniversary of commencement of coinage of the Peace dollar shall have an obverse design and a reverse design that are renditions of the designs historically used on the obverse and reverse of the Peace dollar ."
Rendition designs are not the same as actual designs. Also, the term "honoring" is used to indicate these coins have a commemorative nature.
By the way, PUBLIC LAW 116–286 does not mention the anniversaries for the 101st (year 2022), 102nd (year 2023), 103rd (year 2024), so on and so forth, for these two coins. Therefore, its not a continuing series.
I hope most of us will be alive when the Morgan and Peace dollars are once again recognized for their 150th anniversary, which will require another enacted public law by 2071. Then again, the 200th anniversary will required another enacted public law by 2121.
For better or worse, it appears the hobby and collectors don't classify coins by US government actions. Otherwise, the 1921 Peace dollar and 1932 Washington quarter would be listed under commemoratives.
The 2021s are to Morgan’s what the 2016 Centennials are to Mercury Dimes, SLQs, and Walking Liberty Halves.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
A tribute commemorative is where I place it. Or a commemorative tribute. Are there plans to continue in 2022? Probably not.
What story do most classic Morgan and Peace dollars have? Sitting in a treasury vault for decades until coin dealers and speculators started tapping these vaults first quietly in the 1950s and pretty brazenly in the 1960s. Or CC Morgans sitting in a vault until the GSA disposed of them in the 1970s. These are absolutely part of the original series and the US Mint might continue making Morgan and Peace dollars in 2022 and beyond.
ATS classifies 2021 Morgans as part of the original series.
I did not utter anything about the Peace dollar. What you are saying holds true only for the smaller portion of the total mintage of Morgans. The following link article gives a better idea of the circulated ones.
https://www.greysheet.com/news/story/10-valuable-morgan-silver-dollars-to-search-for-in-your-family-s-coin-collection
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
The ones that didn't circulate may be the smaller portion, but I'm guessing the vast majority of collector dollars and interest go to the ones that didn't circulate. I see many more unc Morgan dollars posted than circulated ones....
From a collecting point of view, yes - and that is where proofs etc. come in.
Not all collectors can afford highest grade of mint state coins in their collections and most of them have the circulated ones in their holders/albums.
Anyways, my point was that if those circulated Morgans could speak, they would regale one with many stories.........
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Yes proofs. Here's a proof I like from @DLHansen's collection. To it's credit, it was sold in 1892
I think one of the reasons Morgans are so popular is actually that unc coins over a century old can be had inexpensively. I don't think they would be nearly as popular without the many that never circulated. For example, many collectors can afford something like this, which is still quite awesome to hold in hand.
I'll see your Public Law 116-286 and raise you PUBLIC LAW 105–124—DEC. 1, 1997, also know as The 50 STATES COMMEMORATIVE COIN PROGRAM ACT :
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-105publ124/pdf/PLAW-105publ124.pdf
Or are the 50 state quarters not considered part of the Washington Quarter series by our hosts, the Red Book, and, well, literally everyone?
--Severian the Lame
Probably not. I can't see any of 2021 "Dollars" with Lee provenances.
The coins that didn’t circulate were the bigger portion in the Morgan and Peace series. That’s why they could be had relatively inexpensively. It’s much cheaper to get an unc Morgan or peace dollar than an unc seated liberty, barber dime/quarter/half or an unc SLQ or an unc WLH before 1934. The 1916 philly Mercury dime in unc might be one of the most obtainable subsidiary silver coins before 1934. Unc silver subsidiary coins aren’t really affordable until you get to the 1934 date. That also is a big clue that the majority of Morgan and peace dollars didn’t circulate outside of the west or outside of holiday gifts.
Folks with the means and in the know of the 1918 Pittman act stashed away the hoardes of the uncirculated Morgans that saved it from the melting pot and were later discovered. But rounding up of a set of the average circulated Morgans would still be the first route that most collectors take.
I look at the Biltmore estate in Asheville the same way.
The penny black stamp story is similar because because approximately 5% still survive out of over 68 million that was printed with the rarest one sold at excess of £100,000.
https://www.stanleygibbons.com/shop/great-britain/penny-black
A lady had wallpaper made out of those stamps and the discovery had everyone scramble
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20634
Now I am really hoping that the dismes would some day be discovered in such abundance. One can dream right?
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Well to say the 2021 isn’t part of the Morgan set you would have to say the 1921 Morgan isn’t ether
I changed my mind after seeing them compared side by side I feel they are definitely part of the set
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Seems pretty simple. The state quarters circulated and were sold for a quarter. The 1921 Morgans fit that bill too. The 2021 Morgans do not.
I suppose you could argue that 2002+ Kennedys would also not qualify but 1) that’s not unreasonable 2) 2x is not the same as 100x or however much more the Morgans are and 3) no time passed between them and the series made for circulation and the production quality was unchanged.
@Weiss If brand new 2021 CC Morgans are selling for ~$175 on eBay that doesn't sound like the market considers them part of the original series, $175 sounds like commemorative coin money when they were $350+ a few weeks ago
.
BUT the U.S Mint also dropped serious hints that it IS a commemorative coin.
Some things you overlooked from the US Mint listing that clearly implies it's a commemorative:
1) It's listed under the U.S Coin Program which states:
"Coin programs are meant to celebrate and honor American people, places, events, and institutions." Celebrate? Celebratory coins? Sounds almost like commemorative coins..
2) The Morgan dollar represents the wild west, the 19th century and westward expansion. How does the 2021 version tie to that history?
3) The U.S mint does not consider this an original Morgan Dollar:
"The reverse [2021] Morgan also features a CC privy mark, in recognition of the historic Mint facility located in Carson City, NV, where some of the original Morgan Dollars were minted"
4) The U.S Mint states the last Morgan dollar was in 1921:
"In honor of the 100th anniversary of the last year of the ‘Morgan Dollar’ the United States Mint is proud to present the 2021 Morgan Dollar,"
I'm no lawyer but the Mint is clearly implying this is not part of the original Morgan set.
The red pack proof 50 state quarters are made of an entirely different alloy, are sold at a very high premium, sold only to collectors in special packaging, and are certainly not intended to circulate.
Yet they are part of the Washington quarter series.
--Severian the Lame
There wasn’t a 100 year gap between them either. It seems to me that if you want to consider the 2021 Morgans you can do so but there are also defensible reasons why someone else might not.
I think there are defensible reasons to consider them part of the series, and not.
They were just issued so there can be a lot of opinions, but I think it will be settled in the next 5 years.
The 50 state quarters didn't end the Washington series. They immediately followed the other Washington quarters with Washington still on the obverse and were minted for circulation. On the other hand this 2021 Morgan is 100 years after the discontinuation of the original coins that were replaced by the Peace Dollar and were minted as commemoratives. I don't think this is a valid analogy.
If stuff like missing details on coins become part of a set because there's a hole in the book to fill, there won't be an answer to the current dilemma until Dansco releases new Morgan albums.
Has anybody thought to contact the Dansco people to get their take on this?
believe it or not, it's not up to you.
it's up to each individual
you typed all of that as if it were the rules, according to you. that's amazing.
@Weiss , you’ve made several valid points, but in this debate, others have made many valid points too that you seem to have difficulty accepting.
@Crypto hit it on the head, that each collector will decide for themselves what they want to collect! Some collectors of Two Cent sets feel their collection of business strikes is complete without the 1864 Small Motto, while others choose to include that in their set. None of those collectors are “wrong”. (FYI, there are more collectors participating with PCGS TWO Cent Registry sets that exclude the 1864 Small Motto than collectors that partake in sets that include it. But it makes no difference, as NONE of those collectors are wrong)!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
PCGS can
Keep the current Morgan Dollar Set as is
Add a set that includes the 2021 Morgan’s
Do the same for the Peace Dollar and for the Modern
Commemoratives.
All six coins should have the option to be included in the respective dollar sets and also in the Modern Commemoratives sets. I feel the coins should be included in both areas as described above.
We all know there are registry sets out there that have 6 or more options for sets .
JMHO,,,,,,
A one year gimmick 100 years after the last of a series was struck.......is NOT a part of the original series.
No way, no how.
My opinion.
A cute shiny gimmick.
That's all it is.