@Spkrmakr said:
Most of the 2021 Morgans I received look just like the real thing..... They look like they came from a canvas bag that rode over a rough road for 500-miles. Junk, pure junk. The US Mint should be ashamed for sending out coins with contact marks and planchet flaws that are eye visible. The Peace dollars I received were fine but a full 1/2 of what I received on the Morgan series of mint marks were very, very low quality. Sad! At $85 each for a (not rare) one ounce collector coin is absurd.
With all the problems with the Morgans, doesn't that mean less will make the 70 grade? Less means more $$$!
Wow. what a great thread! I literally change my mind every other post. I was originally going to agree with Weiss 100% but I think the best counterargument is that it's a 1 off without intent on a reoccurring annual issue.
Whatever though, our children's children will make the decision I guess.
@Spkrmakr said:
Most of the 2021 Morgans I received look just like the real thing..... They look like they came from a canvas bag that rode over a rough road for 500-miles. Junk, pure junk. The US Mint should be ashamed for sending out coins with contact marks and planchet flaws that are eye visible. The Peace dollars I received were fine but a full 1/2 of what I received on the Morgan series of mint marks were very, very low quality. Sad! At $85 each for a (not rare) one ounce collector coin is absurd.
With all the problems with the Morgans, doesn't that mean less will make the 70 grade? Less means more $$$!
Current pops show 100% of graded coins grading 70. PCGS's current bulk policy states that 70 may not be specified as a minimum grade.
@Spkrmakr said:
Most of the 2021 Morgans I received look just like the real thing..... They look like they came from a canvas bag that rode over a rough road for 500-miles. Junk, pure junk. The US Mint should be ashamed for sending out coins with contact marks and planchet flaws that are eye visible. The Peace dollars I received were fine but a full 1/2 of what I received on the Morgan series of mint marks were very, very low quality. Sad! At $85 each for a (not rare) one ounce collector coin is absurd.
With all the problems with the Morgans, doesn't that mean less will make the 70 grade? Less means more $$$!
Current pops show 100% of graded coins grading 70. PCGS's current bulk policy states that 70 may not be specified as a minimum grade.
Bulk purchase dealers might have gotten a leg up from the mint because their coins might not have been manhandled the way the public's were.
@PhillyJoe said:
A tribute commemorative is where I place it. Or a commemorative tribute. Are there plans to continue in 2022? Probably not.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
@Zoins said:
I think there are defensible reasons to consider them part of the series, and not.
They were just issued so there can be a lot of opinions, but I think it will be settled in the next 5 years.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
Current PCGS pop report on the 2021 Morgan’s and Peace Silver Dollars…
2021 Morgan CC grade 70 = 1240; Total graded = 1240
2021 Morgan O grade 70 = 1125; Total graded = 1125
2021 Morgan S grade 70 = 1252; Total graded = 1252
2021 Morgan D grade 70 = 1108; Total graded = 1108
2021 Morgan Philadelphia grade 70 = 1242;Total graded = 1242
If you want to include the 2021 Morgan Dollars in with the original Morgan Proof Dollar series, I suppose that's fine, but, in my opinion at least, there is no way the new 2021s belong in the original Morgan business strike series; since the 2021s are not meant for business/commerce.
@cagcrisp said:
Current PCGS pop report on the 2021 Morgan’s and Peace Silver Dollars…
2021 Morgan CC grade 70 = 1240; Total graded = 1240
2021 Morgan O grade 70 = 1125; Total graded = 1125
2021 Morgan S grade 70 = 1252; Total graded = 1252
2021 Morgan D grade 70 = 1108; Total graded = 1108
2021 Morgan Philadelphia grade 70 = 1242;Total graded = 1242
@TurtleCat said:
After time to consider it I believe it should not be considered part of the regular Morgan dollar series. These 2021 pieces were not issued at face value and are not intended for commerce. That, to me, is enough to put them into a separate category. I also do not agree with those who put the privy O and CC with the respective mintmark series.
Other people and entities may certainly see it differently and that’s ok. It’s just how I see it.
I am split on that...
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
Regarding the mint marks - while a can appreciate the nostalgia of including them (especially the CC - I got samples) I do believe that the mint mark should be representative of the mint that produced them. I don't really know the history behind the use of privy marks but I assume there is some precedent for that. Frankly, I would have rather see a W mark - at least that is still a working mint location.
Ultimately, I would like to see these added to the Silver $ type sets. Have each coin added to their respected slot (i.e. 1878-1921,2021) (1921-1935,2021) or have a separate slot/line for each coin 2021 Morgan and 2021 Peace in the set. Example
link to my set / link below that could be updated. Question: If I clicked the request this coin to be added to the set, what would be the out come be, do you think?
@Zoins said:
I think there are defensible reasons to consider them part of the series, and not.
They were just issued so there can be a lot of opinions, but I think it will be settled in the next 5 years.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
According to the legislation authorizing them they are commemoratives.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Zoins said:
I think there are defensible reasons to consider them part of the series, and not.
They were just issued so there can be a lot of opinions, but I think it will be settled in the next 5 years.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
According to the legislation authorizing them they are commemoratives.
According to the legislation, the bicentennial coins are commemoratives as well. Does any Kennedy, Washington, or Ike collector exclude them from their collections? Does the Red Book, PCGS, or ATS exclude them?
Public Law 93-127
AN ACT October 18, 1973
To provide a new coinage design and date emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution for dollars, half dollars, and quarter dollars, to authorize the issuance of special silver coins commemorating the Bicentennial
of the American Revolution, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled, That the reverse American Reverse side of all dollar, half-dollar, and quarter-dollar coins minted for issuance on or after July 4, 1975, and until such time as the Secretary Coinage design
of the Treasury may determine, shall bear a design determined by the Secretary to be emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@Zoins said:
I think there are defensible reasons to consider them part of the series, and not.
They were just issued so there can be a lot of opinions, but I think it will be settled in the next 5 years.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
According to the legislation authorizing them they are commemoratives.
According to the legislation, the bicentennial coins are commemoratives as well. Does any Kennedy, Washington, or Ike collector exclude them from their collections? Does the Red Book, PCGS, or ATS exclude them?
Public Law 93-127
AN ACT October 18, 1973
To provide a new coinage design and date emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution for dollars, half dollars, and quarter dollars, to authorize the issuance of special silver coins commemorating the Bicentennial
of the American Revolution, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled, That the reverse American Reverse side of all dollar, half-dollar, and quarter-dollar coins minted for issuance on or after July 4, 1975, and until such time as the Secretary Coinage design
of the Treasury may determine, shall bear a design determined by the Secretary to be emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution.
The bicentennial’s are a continuation of the yearly striking of regular issue coins. This Morgan and Peace dollars are commemoratives of discontinued coins.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
all the similarities in the old and new Morgans is simply because the 2021 was issued to commemorate 100 years since the original morgan. Mint is not continuing the series, it is a commemorative coin. In 2022 mint will issue a San Francisco Morgan proof to further commemorate the series.Original coins were issued for spenders; latest coins were issued for collectors.
guess where the 2021's show up in the Pop Report? LOL
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Well, we all have opinions about this. I respect the viewpoint of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, but they're still wrong.
I vote no. They're NCLT, not intended for commerce. They aren't prepared or treated as business strikes, the material they're made from isn't capable of enduring circulation, and the legislation behind them is not intended to produce an instrument of commerce.
Yeah, they're the same diameter and weight. So are most of the artsy (and not-so-artsy) bullion rounds that have been made by the zillions.
As for them being created over multiple years....... well, big shock there. As I said in another thread, the mint would sell literal garbage (the lids of used tin cans) if they could make a profit at it.
Absolutely a commemorative. It's a tribute. C'mon, everyone knows the Morgan series ended over a hundred years ago. This is definitely a cool coin to get, but please don't think for a second that it's a continuation of the series.
Absolutely the next coin in the series!! We need new albums with new holes for the continuation of this series. Newsflash-it's a Morgan and there will be more next year too. Just because there was a gap between production doesn't mean it ended completely. C'mon, everyone knows they're being minted again, gotta collect 'em all.
And this is exactly why the US Mint thought it was a great idea to make the 2021's and continue the series - rejuvenated all of the interest in them! Better than any commercial advertising they could have accomplished. BUT, the quality of the coins need to be upgraded. Or at least don't send damaged/details coins out to the buyers.
And do you really think a collector of Morgans who has High grade rare Morgans in his/her collection is going to say "I need that 2021 to complete my collection" ?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
And this is exactly why the US Mint thought it was a great idea to make the 2021's and continue the series - rejuvenated all of the interest in them! Better than any commercial advertising they could have accomplished. BUT, the quality of the coins need to be upgraded. Or at least don't send damaged/details coins out to the buyers.
And do you really think a collector of Morgans who has High grade rare Morgans in his/her collection is going to say "I need that 2021 to complete my collection" ?
@Onastone said:
Absolutely a commemorative. It's a tribute. C'mon, everyone knows the Morgan series ended over a hundred years ago
…in 1904!
?
The gap between the 1904 and 1921 was 17 years which is not a minor gap, but these are still considered part of the same series. At what arbitrary number does the gap no longer become a mere gap and mark the creation of a new series?
The circulation argument also fails for me. Proof only years are still considered part of the same series. Look at the two most prized Trade Dollars… the 1884 and 1885. These were proof only and considered ultra rarities. Would anyone contend these were intended for circulation? Would anyone here challenge the inclusion of those two issues as part of the trade dollar series?
@Onastone said:
Absolutely a commemorative. It's a tribute. C'mon, everyone knows the Morgan series ended over a hundred years ago
…in 1904!
?
The gap between the 1904 and 1921 was 17 years which is not a minor gap, but these are still considered part of the same series. At what arbitrary number does the gap no longer become a mere gap and mark the creation of a new series?
The circulation argument also fails for me. Proof only years are still considered part of the same series. Look at the two most prized Trade Dollars… the 1884 and 1885. These were proof only and considered ultra rarities. Would anyone contend these were intended for circulation? Would anyone here challenge the inclusion of those two issues as part of the trade dollar series?
It isn’t any one thing or a bright divider that would determine whether it’s generally accepted to be part of the same series. I think you could ask any of the following (or more):
Same design obverse?
Same basic design obverse?
Same design reverse?
Same basic design reverse?
Same composition?
Same size?
Years between production?
Any intervening designs?
Similar mintage numbers?
Same minting facilities?
Same finish?
Same distribution?
Same price?
Does the production run continue in subsequent years?
If there were changes and the production continued, do subsequent years continue with the changes or revert back?
Any changes in legislation or mint language regarding production or distribution?
You can come up with examples for most of the above where one might reasonably draw a line on one side of the other. For example, the satin finish special issue nickels in 2004 and 2005. Special Kennedys in 2014. Even bicentennial coinage of 1976. Maybe the 1995-W Silver Eagle.
Also, what does it mean to be part of the same series? One could ask if a registry set would be complete without certain coins. I think it’s reasonable to consider a mint state set complete but others include proofs and/or SMS examples.
"Well the original proof Morgans were struck for collectors and never intended for circulation. So these coins, which were struck for collectors and never intended for circulation, can't possibly be part of the Morgan series."
Denominated at $1. Content, shape, size, weight and design true to the Morgan dollar. Struck by the US mint.
Some interesting mental gymnastics for people trying to argue these Morgan dollars aren't Morgan dollars.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@fathom said:
The original proof Morgans were struck as the original regular issue Morgans were intended and distributed as circulating coins.
The original proof Morgans were not intended and distributed as circulation coins.
The current Morgan production is not a circulating coin. Not intended, marketed, distributed as a circulating coin.
If bullion coins were created, they would be intended for bullion commerce, but not at face value.
This is America....you are free to call the current Morgan program a continuation. But that does not dilute or cancel the reality.
But what if there’s more than one reality?
How did the original Morgan dollar circulate?
Luck?
Chance?
Bigfoot?
Yes, we live in a different reality. Metaverse?
You removed the "proof" when referring to my post:
Original proof Morgan dollars.
I was quoting you here which seems to say original proofs were struck as original regular issue which were circulating coins. I'm just saying the proofs were not intended or distributed as circulating coins, which could mean we're living in different realities if you think they were.
@fathom said:
The original proof Morgans were struck as the original regular issue Morgans were intended and distributed as circulating coins.
@fathom said:
The original proof Morgans were struck as the original regular issue Morgans were intended and distributed as circulating coins.
The original proof Morgans were not intended and distributed as circulation coins.
The current Morgan production is not a circulating coin. Not intended, marketed, distributed as a circulating coin.
If bullion coins were created, they would be intended for bullion commerce, but not at face value.
This is America....you are free to call the current Morgan program a continuation. But that does not dilute or cancel the reality.
But what if there’s more than one reality?
How did the original Morgan dollar circulate?
Luck?
Chance?
Bigfoot?
Yes, we live in a different reality. Metaverse?
You removed the "proof" when referring to my post:
Original proof Morgan dollars.
I was quoting you here which seems to say original proofs were struck as original regular issue which were circulating coins. I'm just saying the proofs were not intended or distributed as circulating coins, which could mean we're living in different realities if you think they were.
@fathom said:
The original proof Morgans were struck as the original regular issue Morgans were intended and distributed as circulating coins.
Yes miscommunication, I meant "as the original" meaning at the same time.
As a former collector of business strike Morgan Dollars...I would never have included the 2021 coin in my set/collection. I might have purchased one, and still might, but I would have considered it to be something very different from a "real" Morgan Dollar. Just my opinion, and not one that I would have felt I needed to justify/explain to anyone. Everybody gets to decide what to collect, right?
But, as far as providing a rationale for why I believe that the 2021 issue should not be considered to be a continuation of the business strike series, my thoughts are as follows:
Although the 2021 coin is legal tender and issued with a face value of $1, and regardless of whether intended for circulation... at the time of issue (i.e. today), it would not be rational for anyone to actually spend one, from an economic perspective, due to the value of the contained silver.
In sharp contrast, at time of issuance, face value represented the maximum value that could be realized for business strike Morgan Dollars issued from 1878-1921.
Put simply, the fact that intrinsic value exceeds face value at time of issuance is a show stopper for me.
Obviously, I can't think of a counter example...but can anyone tell me if there are any other business strike series which contain coins whose intrinsic value exceeded face value at time of issuance?
@Onastone said:
Absolutely a commemorative. It's a tribute. C'mon, everyone knows the Morgan series ended over a hundred years ago
…in 1904!
?
The gap between the 1904 and 1921 was 17 years which is not a minor gap, but these are still considered part of the same series. At what arbitrary number does the gap no longer become a mere gap and mark the creation of a new series?
Pretty much every wholesaler categorizes 1921 Morgans separately, so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with 1921 Morgans being a part of the set. I think they should be referred to as Pittman Dollars or something.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@RAB said:
As a former collector of business strike Morgan Dollars...I would never have included the 2021 coin in my set/collection. I might have purchased one, and still might, but I would have considered it to be something very different from a "real" Morgan Dollar. Just my opinion, and not one that I would have felt I needed to justify/explain to anyone. Everybody gets to decide what to collect, right?
But, as far as providing a rationale for why I believe that the 2021 issue should not be considered to be a continuation of the business strike series, my thoughts are as follows:
Although the 2021 coin is legal tender and issued with a face value of $1, and regardless of whether intended for circulation... at the time of issue (i.e. today), it would not be rational for anyone to actually spend one, from an economic perspective, due to the value of the contained silver.
In sharp contrast, at time of issuance, face value represented the maximum value that could be realized for business strike Morgan Dollars issued from 1878-1921.
Put simply, the fact that intrinsic value exceeds face value at time of issuance is a show stopper for me.
Obviously, I can't think of a counter example...but can anyone tell me if there are any other business strike series which contain coins whose intrinsic value exceeded face value at time of issuance?
Qualifying the 2021 Morgan dollars by saying they're not "business strikes" is a straw man.
Nobody is calling the 2021 Morgan dollars "business strikes". Not our hosts. Not the Mint. They aren't intended to circulate. But they could. Just as the proof Morgan dollars struck specifically for collectors in 1879, 1892, 1904 or any other year proof Morgans were struck could have circulated and in fact, based on the circulated proof pops, clearly did.
Proofs that are included alongside the business strike Morgan dollar series in the Red Book, the same way they've been presented for over seven decades. The same that every proof in every other denomination and series in the history of the US mint has been presented.
Alternately, tell the owner of the 1895 PCGS PR67 DCAM Morgan that sold for $187,200 on 01-04-2018 that their dollar isn't a "real" Morgan dollar. Of course it's a real Morgan dollar. It's one that was struck specifically for collectors. But it's still a Morgan dollar.
As for their intrinsic value exceeding their face value: The price of silver in January 1976 was approximately $4.25 per ounce. A 1976 40% silver dollar proof--a coin struck specifically for collectors but denominated at $1--had a nominal cost of approximately $4 but an intrinsic value based on its silver content alone of approximately $1.34, representing both a cost and an "intrinsic value" well above its denominated $1.
In fact, every other 40% silver and 90% silver proof struck by the US Mint in the last 50 +/- years has exceeded their intrinsic value at a cost much greater than their denominated value.
But those are proofs and not "business strikes", right? Then take for example the 1998 silver matte Kennedy. Denominated at $.50, not a proof, much higher silver value, much higher issue price, offered exclusively to collectors, and absolutely, positively, listed and collected alongside the Kennedy half dollar series.
And while we're at it: the 6 million non proof copper cents struck in 2009 would like a word with you.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@Weiss said:
"Well the original proof Morgans were struck for collectors and never intended for circulation. So these coins, which were struck for collectors and never intended for circulation, can't possibly be part of the Morgan series."
Denominated at $1. Content, shape, size, weight and design true to the Morgan dollar. Struck by the US mint.
Some interesting mental gymnastics for people trying to argue these Morgan dollars aren't Morgan dollars.
Some interesting mental gymnastics for people trying to argue these commemoratives are Morgan Dollars.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Zoins said:
I think there are defensible reasons to consider them part of the series, and not.
They were just issued so there can be a lot of opinions, but I think it will be settled in the next 5 years.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
According to the legislation authorizing them they are commemoratives.
According to the legislation, the bicentennial coins are commemoratives as well. Does any Kennedy, Washington, or Ike collector exclude them from their collections? Does the Red Book, PCGS, or ATS exclude them?
Public Law 93-127
AN ACT October 18, 1973
To provide a new coinage design and date emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution for dollars, half dollars, and quarter dollars, to authorize the issuance of special silver coins commemorating the Bicentennial
of the American Revolution, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled, That the reverse American Reverse side of all dollar, half-dollar, and quarter-dollar coins minted for issuance on or after July 4, 1975, and until such time as the Secretary Coinage design
of the Treasury may determine, shall bear a design determined by the Secretary to be emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution.
The SILVER coins which this legislation authorizes is NOT part of the continuing mintage of Kennedy, Washington or Ike coins or a set of these coins.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Had the Mint struck them in 90% silver, a lot more would be warm to including them.
Alternatively, if struck in current clad and issued at face value, they would have been acceptable too, even if ugly. No modern dollar coin really has been met with pubic acceptance in being broadly used in commerce. They are set aside as curiosities or deposited at the bank. The Morgan would be in line with that. Definitely a curiosity that is set aside but truly a coin.
@alefzero said:
Had the Mint struck them in 90% silver, a lot more would be warm to including them.
Wait till they start to tone like the 90% Morgans that never circulated.
I wonder when we'll see the first significantly toned 2021 Morgan or Peace? And who will be brave enough to face the withering heat of suspicion that will commence?
@alefzero said:
Had the Mint struck them in 90% silver, a lot more would be warm to including them.
Wait till they start to tone like the 90% Morgans that never circulated.
I wonder when we'll see the first significantly toned 2021 Morgan or Peace? And who will be brave enough to face the withering heat of suspicion that will commence?
Hey man, can I borrow your blowtorch for 15 seconds?
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@RAB said:
As a former collector of business strike Morgan Dollars...I would never have included the 2021 coin in my set/collection. I might have purchased one, and still might, but I would have considered it to be something very different from a "real" Morgan Dollar. Just my opinion, and not one that I would have felt I needed to justify/explain to anyone. Everybody gets to decide what to collect, right?
But, as far as providing a rationale for why I believe that the 2021 issue should not be considered to be a continuation of the business strike series, my thoughts are as follows:
Although the 2021 coin is legal tender and issued with a face value of $1, and regardless of whether intended for circulation... at the time of issue (i.e. today), it would not be rational for anyone to actually spend one, from an economic perspective, due to the value of the contained silver.
In sharp contrast, at time of issuance, face value represented the maximum value that could be realized for business strike Morgan Dollars issued from 1878-1921.
Put simply, the fact that intrinsic value exceeds face value at time of issuance is a show stopper for me.
Obviously, I can't think of a counter example...but can anyone tell me if there are any other business strike series which contain coins whose intrinsic value exceeded face value at time of issuance?
So 1964 Peace Dollars struck in 1965 wouldn’t be a part of the original peace dollar series when issued?
Look at all of the pennies and nickels today. Their intrinsic value all exceed their face value at the time of issuance.
@RAB said:
As a former collector of business strike Morgan Dollars...I would never have included the 2021 coin in my set/collection. I might have purchased one, and still might, but I would have considered it to be something very different from a "real" Morgan Dollar. Just my opinion, and not one that I would have felt I needed to justify/explain to anyone. Everybody gets to decide what to collect, right?
But, as far as providing a rationale for why I believe that the 2021 issue should not be considered to be a continuation of the business strike series, my thoughts are as follows:
Although the 2021 coin is legal tender and issued with a face value of $1, and regardless of whether intended for circulation... at the time of issue (i.e. today), it would not be rational for anyone to actually spend one, from an economic perspective, due to the value of the contained silver.
In sharp contrast, at time of issuance, face value represented the maximum value that could be realized for business strike Morgan Dollars issued from 1878-1921.
Put simply, the fact that intrinsic value exceeds face value at time of issuance is a show stopper for me.
Obviously, I can't think of a counter example...but can anyone tell me if there are any other business strike series which contain coins whose intrinsic value exceeded face value at time of issuance?
So 1964 Peace Dollars struck in 1965 wouldn’t be a part of the original peace dollar series when issued?
Look at all of the pennies and nickels today. Their intrinsic value all exceed their face value at the time of issuance.
No I do not believe the 64-65 is part of the series. One off commemorative 😉
Rumor has it that they are going to do reverse proofs? How can a reverse proof be part of anything but a commemorative 😉
Comments
With all the problems with the Morgans, doesn't that mean less will make the 70 grade? Less means more $$$!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Wow. what a great thread! I literally change my mind every other post. I was originally going to agree with Weiss 100% but I think the best counterargument is that it's a 1 off without intent on a reoccurring annual issue.
Whatever though, our children's children will make the decision I guess.
Current pops show 100% of graded coins grading 70. PCGS's current bulk policy states that 70 may not be specified as a minimum grade.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Bulk purchase dealers might have gotten a leg up from the mint because their coins might not have been manhandled the way the public's were.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
Sup. Morgans are cool - So are Ducatis.
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
Sup. Morgans are cool - So are Ducatis.
...But not. Link please...
Sup. Morgans are cool - So are Ducatis.
Current PCGS pop report on the 2021 Morgan’s and Peace Silver Dollars…
2021 Morgan CC grade 70 = 1240; Total graded = 1240
2021 Morgan O grade 70 = 1125; Total graded = 1125
2021 Morgan S grade 70 = 1252; Total graded = 1252
2021 Morgan D grade 70 = 1108; Total graded = 1108
2021 Morgan Philadelphia grade 70 = 1242;Total graded = 1242
2021 Peace grade 70 = 1052; Total graded = 1052
Total graded 70 = 7019; Total graded = 7019…
If you want to include the 2021 Morgan Dollars in with the original Morgan Proof Dollar series, I suppose that's fine, but, in my opinion at least, there is no way the new 2021s belong in the original Morgan business strike series; since the 2021s are not meant for business/commerce.
Steve
Where did you find this?
Sup. Morgans are cool - So are Ducatis.
I am split on that...
The 2021 Morgan Dollars and 2021 Peace Dollar are NOT commemoratives. The production information and the COA received with them indicated they are produced per spec by the US Mint and are legal tender, so these are absolutely "real" US Dollars, tho I doubt anyone in their right mind would spend one -- Same with an OG Morgan - still "spendable" but I doubt any one would - nor would anyone receiving it know what to do with it.
The question now is how to categorize them - New/old or continuation...
Regarding the mint marks - while a can appreciate the nostalgia of including them (especially the CC - I got samples) I do believe that the mint mark should be representative of the mint that produced them. I don't really know the history behind the use of privy marks but I assume there is some precedent for that. Frankly, I would have rather see a W mark - at least that is still a working mint location.
Sup. Morgans are cool - So are Ducatis.
Ultimately, I would like to see these added to the Silver $ type sets. Have each coin added to their respected slot (i.e. 1878-1921,2021) (1921-1935,2021) or have a separate slot/line for each coin 2021 Morgan and 2021 Peace in the set. Example
link to my set / link below that could be updated. Question: If I clicked the request this coin to be added to the set, what would be the out come be, do you think?
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/121490
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
According to the legislation authorizing them they are commemoratives.
According to the legislation, the bicentennial coins are commemoratives as well. Does any Kennedy, Washington, or Ike collector exclude them from their collections? Does the Red Book, PCGS, or ATS exclude them?
Public Law 93-127
AN ACT October 18, 1973
To provide a new coinage design and date emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution for dollars, half dollars, and quarter dollars, to authorize the issuance of special silver coins commemorating the Bicentennial
of the American Revolution, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled, That the reverse American Reverse side of all dollar, half-dollar, and quarter-dollar coins minted for issuance on or after July 4, 1975, and until such time as the Secretary Coinage design
of the Treasury may determine, shall bear a design determined by the Secretary to be emblematic of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution.
--Severian the Lame
The bicentennial’s are a continuation of the yearly striking of regular issue coins. This Morgan and Peace dollars are commemoratives of discontinued coins.
Now that these are continuing into 2022 and possibly beyond, I do see these as an extension of the original series.
all the similarities in the old and new Morgans is simply because the 2021 was issued to commemorate 100 years since the original morgan. Mint is not continuing the series, it is a commemorative coin. In 2022 mint will issue a San Francisco Morgan proof to further commemorate the series.Original coins were issued for spenders; latest coins were issued for collectors.
guess where the 2021's show up in the Pop Report? LOL
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Mint Just generating money. They are beautiful coins. They are not giving them away at $85 issue price.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
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Well, we all have opinions about this. I respect the viewpoint of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, but they're still wrong.
I vote no. They're NCLT, not intended for commerce. They aren't prepared or treated as business strikes, the material they're made from isn't capable of enduring circulation, and the legislation behind them is not intended to produce an instrument of commerce.
Yeah, they're the same diameter and weight. So are most of the artsy (and not-so-artsy) bullion rounds that have been made by the zillions.
As for them being created over multiple years....... well, big shock there. As I said in another thread, the mint would sell literal garbage (the lids of used tin cans) if they could make a profit at it.
Absolutely a commemorative. It's a tribute. C'mon, everyone knows the Morgan series ended over a hundred years ago. This is definitely a cool coin to get, but please don't think for a second that it's a continuation of the series.
Absolutely the next coin in the series!! We need new albums with new holes for the continuation of this series. Newsflash-it's a Morgan and there will be more next year too. Just because there was a gap between production doesn't mean it ended completely. C'mon, everyone knows they're being minted again, gotta collect 'em all.
Hoo boy... we should take a vote.
And this is exactly why the US Mint thought it was a great idea to make the 2021's and continue the series - rejuvenated all of the interest in them! Better than any commercial advertising they could have accomplished. BUT, the quality of the coins need to be upgraded. Or at least don't send damaged/details coins out to the buyers.
And do you really think a collector of Morgans who has High grade rare Morgans in his/her collection is going to say "I need that 2021 to complete my collection" ?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
"Steven59> @Steven59 said:
It is what it is!
So why wouldn't they
…in 1904!
?
The gap between the 1904 and 1921 was 17 years which is not a minor gap, but these are still considered part of the same series. At what arbitrary number does the gap no longer become a mere gap and mark the creation of a new series?
The circulation argument also fails for me. Proof only years are still considered part of the same series. Look at the two most prized Trade Dollars… the 1884 and 1885. These were proof only and considered ultra rarities. Would anyone contend these were intended for circulation? Would anyone here challenge the inclusion of those two issues as part of the trade dollar series?
Well done. I shall ponder this. Thanks 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
It isn’t any one thing or a bright divider that would determine whether it’s generally accepted to be part of the same series. I think you could ask any of the following (or more):
Same design obverse?
Same basic design obverse?
Same design reverse?
Same basic design reverse?
Same composition?
Same size?
Years between production?
Any intervening designs?
Similar mintage numbers?
Same minting facilities?
Same finish?
Same distribution?
Same price?
Does the production run continue in subsequent years?
If there were changes and the production continued, do subsequent years continue with the changes or revert back?
Any changes in legislation or mint language regarding production or distribution?
You can come up with examples for most of the above where one might reasonably draw a line on one side of the other. For example, the satin finish special issue nickels in 2004 and 2005. Special Kennedys in 2014. Even bicentennial coinage of 1976. Maybe the 1995-W Silver Eagle.
Also, what does it mean to be part of the same series? One could ask if a registry set would be complete without certain coins. I think it’s reasonable to consider a mint state set complete but others include proofs and/or SMS examples.
The original proof Morgans were struck as the original regular issue Morgans were intended and distributed as circulating coins.
The current Morgan production is not a circulating coin. Not intended, marketed, distributed as a circulating coin.
In addition the alloy content, size and lack of direct banking relationship with the Mint relegate the coins to a commemorative collectible.
This is America....you are free to call the current Morgan program a continuation. But that does not dilute or cancel the reality.
"Well the original proof Morgans were struck for collectors and never intended for circulation. So these coins, which were struck for collectors and never intended for circulation, can't possibly be part of the Morgan series."
Denominated at $1. Content, shape, size, weight and design true to the Morgan dollar. Struck by the US mint.
Some interesting mental gymnastics for people trying to argue these Morgan dollars aren't Morgan dollars.
--Severian the Lame
The original proof Morgans were not intended and distributed as circulation coins.
If bullion coins were created, they would be intended for bullion commerce, but not at face value.
But what if there’s more than one reality?
How did the original Morgan dollar circulate?
Luck?
Chance?
Bigfoot?
Yes, we live in a different reality. Metaverse?
You removed the "proof" when referring to my post:
Original proof Morgan dollars.
I was quoting you here which seems to say original proofs were struck as original regular issue which were circulating coins. I'm just saying the proofs were not intended or distributed as circulating coins, which could mean we're living in different realities if you think they were.
Yes miscommunication, I meant "as the original" meaning at the same time.
As a former collector of business strike Morgan Dollars...I would never have included the 2021 coin in my set/collection. I might have purchased one, and still might, but I would have considered it to be something very different from a "real" Morgan Dollar. Just my opinion, and not one that I would have felt I needed to justify/explain to anyone. Everybody gets to decide what to collect, right?
But, as far as providing a rationale for why I believe that the 2021 issue should not be considered to be a continuation of the business strike series, my thoughts are as follows:
Although the 2021 coin is legal tender and issued with a face value of $1, and regardless of whether intended for circulation... at the time of issue (i.e. today), it would not be rational for anyone to actually spend one, from an economic perspective, due to the value of the contained silver.
In sharp contrast, at time of issuance, face value represented the maximum value that could be realized for business strike Morgan Dollars issued from 1878-1921.
Put simply, the fact that intrinsic value exceeds face value at time of issuance is a show stopper for me.
Obviously, I can't think of a counter example...but can anyone tell me if there are any other business strike series which contain coins whose intrinsic value exceeded face value at time of issuance?
Roseanne Barrett I - CAC Morgan Dollar Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (Retired)
Roseanne Barrett - CAC Basic Seated Liberty Type Set, Circulation Strikes
Pretty much every wholesaler categorizes 1921 Morgans separately, so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with 1921 Morgans being a part of the set. I think they should be referred to as Pittman Dollars or something.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
So, are the 2021 Morgan Dollars part of the Morgan dollar series?
The 2021 Morgan Dollars are indeed part of the Morgan dollar series.
--Severian the Lame
No they are not but if someone needs them to be that’s ok. Doesn’t change the fact they are not but that’s ok🙃
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Yes, yes they are Weiss. Ok, time for your warm milk and medications now.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Qualifying the 2021 Morgan dollars by saying they're not "business strikes" is a straw man.
Nobody is calling the 2021 Morgan dollars "business strikes". Not our hosts. Not the Mint. They aren't intended to circulate. But they could. Just as the proof Morgan dollars struck specifically for collectors in 1879, 1892, 1904 or any other year proof Morgans were struck could have circulated and in fact, based on the circulated proof pops, clearly did.
Proofs that are included alongside the business strike Morgan dollar series in the Red Book, the same way they've been presented for over seven decades. The same that every proof in every other denomination and series in the history of the US mint has been presented.
Alternately, tell the owner of the 1895 PCGS PR67 DCAM Morgan that sold for $187,200 on 01-04-2018 that their dollar isn't a "real" Morgan dollar. Of course it's a real Morgan dollar. It's one that was struck specifically for collectors. But it's still a Morgan dollar.
As for their intrinsic value exceeding their face value: The price of silver in January 1976 was approximately $4.25 per ounce. A 1976 40% silver dollar proof--a coin struck specifically for collectors but denominated at $1--had a nominal cost of approximately $4 but an intrinsic value based on its silver content alone of approximately $1.34, representing both a cost and an "intrinsic value" well above its denominated $1.
In fact, every other 40% silver and 90% silver proof struck by the US Mint in the last 50 +/- years has exceeded their intrinsic value at a cost much greater than their denominated value.
But those are proofs and not "business strikes", right? Then take for example the 1998 silver matte Kennedy. Denominated at $.50, not a proof, much higher silver value, much higher issue price, offered exclusively to collectors, and absolutely, positively, listed and collected alongside the Kennedy half dollar series.
And while we're at it: the 6 million non proof copper cents struck in 2009 would like a word with you.
--Severian the Lame
Some interesting mental gymnastics for people trying to argue these commemoratives are Morgan Dollars.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The SILVER coins which this legislation authorizes is NOT part of the continuing mintage of Kennedy, Washington or Ike coins or a set of these coins.
Does it really matter what you call them?
They are Morgan Dollars and they are Commemoratives.
Call them what you will, they are beautiful coins.
Had the Mint struck them in 90% silver, a lot more would be warm to including them.
Alternatively, if struck in current clad and issued at face value, they would have been acceptable too, even if ugly. No modern dollar coin really has been met with pubic acceptance in being broadly used in commerce. They are set aside as curiosities or deposited at the bank. The Morgan would be in line with that. Definitely a curiosity that is set aside but truly a coin.
Wait till they start to tone like the 90% Morgans that never circulated.
I wonder when we'll see the first significantly toned 2021 Morgan or Peace? And who will be brave enough to face the withering heat of suspicion that will commence?
Hey man, can I borrow your blowtorch for 15 seconds?
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
So 1964 Peace Dollars struck in 1965 wouldn’t be a part of the original peace dollar series when issued?
Look at all of the pennies and nickels today. Their intrinsic value all exceed their face value at the time of issuance.
No I do not believe the 64-65 is part of the series. One off commemorative 😉
Rumor has it that they are going to do reverse proofs? How can a reverse proof be part of anything but a commemorative 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
You can spend it