@Nic said:
Folks are arguing about CAC and a 63 common date Peace Dollar?
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minimis at best.
@Soldi said:
Sold some of my collection to a dealer in NJ , some to CAC , some to a dealer in NH.
I still have a few pieces left, but not much, always will trade or make a deal with fellow collectors.
Lost the most money on Barber halves, I'm no expert , but it turns out even the "tough dates" are ubiquitous , offers for coins purchased from the best dealers we're always 20% behind lowest heritage auctions prices, regardless of auction date. Jeez never again.
This is where eBay makes all the difference from what I have seen because it is a platform with a lot more reach with newcomers to the hobby and you only pay about 10% fees totally - so if you added that to the final costs someone somewhere down the line would buy it even though it may take some time
@HalfDimeDude said:
I had a Morgan MS 65 + * NGC toned with a finger print over the entire obv. Breaking the tone due to acids and oils off the fingers. I took it in a trade as I knew that the +/* and the tone some bid idiot would had to have. The coins sold in less than a week and I made $100 + cost .
Curious to know why you would think someone is an idiot for bidding on a coin they probably will like.
It never seems to fail throw a little color on a coin, and the bid idiots go nuts! Over paying for tarnish, and finger prints and willing to pay a premium on an common date Morgan ?
Fool ,idiot,or what ever other adjective one cares to use to describe bad decisions.
It has nothing to do with like or dislike .... its about making good choices!
Buying a coin that isnt a key or semi key, and dropping moon money on a coin that there somewhere in the neighborhood of another 12 million out there to choose from..... is just plain stupidity in my book. You may see it different but where I come from we put quality over quanity every day
And i will ad this....It doent help the hobby! As sooner or later that person will want to sell the coin, only to find out that they are the only 1 in a million that will over pay for said coin.
Now hung with a bad choice to begin with they loose interest and leave the hobby.
Thats why I personally try my best to discourage such, and lean towards education to keep that person interest on track.
Coin collecting is a tad bit more involved than placing little round disc in a folder.....its History, math ,science, research, and more. If your not willing to learn then you definitely picked the wrong hobby.
If only one in a million would pay for said coin, it likely wouldn't have brought what it did in the first place. And maybe, just maybe, those with different opinions and preferences from you aren't necessarily fools, idiots or what ever other adjective one cares to use. Some of them might have even researched and learned, before making their purchases.
I don’t see the common sense in paying huge money for readily available dates in very high condition. Case in point the 1943 walker at over $100,000. The coin can be bought for $2750 in 67-+ but jumps to $32,000 in 68 and $100,000 in 68+. Very tiny differences. And the plus grading is ambiguous and difficult to be consistent with. In my mind the only thing that can justify a very high price in a coin like this is amazing toning combined with a super high grade of 67 or better. Still not near a hundred thousand.!. still respect others who wish to pay these prices and would never call them idiots or foolish.
My crystal ball is broken. You can not understand, but if the 68+ sells next for $150k and the 67+ goes to$3000 in the same time frame...
But how do you justify $2750 to $32,000 for a simple + grade which is simply only a high end 67 and even more difficult to determine than a straight 67 to 68? And this is only a white coin essentially, not a beautiful toned piece which could be called a Picasso of coins like a painting. And 67+ is not a population of 1or 2.
It's the Market.
I don't have to justify it. I can choose to play or not. Clearly MULTIPLE people were willing to pay the difference. It would be better and more profitable for you to accept that fact rather than argue with it.
This is a extremely tiny market. The question is would you invest your money in these coins if Igave you $500,000 to invest in any coins you see potential in. I am just stating a personal opinion about these kind of coins, which I am entitled to. Not insulting these people who choose to buy these coins, as they can spend their own money as they please.
I personally have no interest in any key dates. I don't argue with people who do.
"I don't see the common sense..." isn't exactly supportive and could be considered insulting.
@Nic said:
Folks are arguing about CAC and a 63 common date Peace Dollar?
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minis at best.
If that’s your attitude about it - and you seem to be assuming that the coin doesn’t look noticeably better in hand - you could just as easily say the same about sending the coin to NGC in the first place. And by the way, no matter how appalled you might be by the notion, some people do care about low value coins being stickered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Joey29 said:
I understand. Guess overpriced is a nicer term
If you posted some of your coins and the prices you paid, I bet somebody would think some of them were overpriced and you overpaid for them. Would that be a nice thing to say?
@Joey29 said:
I understand. Guess overpriced is a nicer term
If you posted some of your coins and the prices you paid, I bet somebody would think some of them were overpriced and you overpaid for them. Would that be a nice thing to say?
I don’t mind as I bought some coins with pretty toning, as I see the value in them. I overpay for exceptional eye appeal But I didn’t pay huge multiples of pcgs price guide. Btw I did see more of the price value in the 1941 Lulu walker as it has great color.
@Soldi said:
Sold some of my collection to a dealer in NJ , some to CAC , some to a dealer in NH.
I still have a few pieces left, but not much, always will trade or make a deal with fellow collectors.
Lost the most money on Barber halves, I'm no expert , but it turns out even the "tough dates" are ubiquitous , offers for coins purchased from the best dealers we're always 20% behind lowest heritage auctions prices, regardless of auction date. Jeez never again.
This is where eBay makes all the difference from what I have seen because it is a platform with a lot more reach with newcomers to the hobby and you only pay about 10% fees totally - so if you added that to the final costs someone somewhere down the line would buy it even though it may take some time
Obsession with the fees will cost you money. It's net proceeds that matter. On many items, Stacks and heritage will get you 100% more money than eBay or BST
@Nic said:
Folks are arguing about CAC and a 63 common date Peace Dollar?
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minis at best.
If that’s your attitude about it - and you seem to be assuming that the coin doesn’t look noticeably better in hand - you could just as easily say the same about sending the coin to NGC in the first place. And by the way, no matter how appalled you might be by the notion, some people do care about low value coins being stickered.
I just sent 2 Trade $s to NGC knowing they would detail grade but needing authentication.
For toned coins, you need a straight grade of any type to prevent people from calling it AT.
@Nic said:
Folks are arguing about CAC and a 63 common date Peace Dollar?
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minis at best.
If that’s your attitude about it - and you seem to be assuming that the coin doesn’t look noticeably better in hand - you could just as easily say the same about sending the coin to NGC in the first place. And by the way, no matter how appalled you might be by the notion, some people do care about low value coins being stickered.
I just sent 2 Trade $s to NGC knowing they would detail grade but needing authentication.
For toned coins, you need a straight grade of any type to prevent people from calling it AT.
@Nic said:
Folks are arguing about CAC and a 63 common date Peace Dollar?
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minis at best.
If that’s your attitude about it - and you seem to be assuming that the coin doesn’t look noticeably better in hand - you could just as easily say the same about sending the coin to NGC in the first place.
That's fair. And I would agree with that statement as well. I don't understand sending sub $100 coins to TPGs absent some sentimental reason. You spend more on plastic than the coin is worth.
@Soldi said:
Sold some of my collection to a dealer in NJ , some to CAC , some to a dealer in NH.
I still have a few pieces left, but not much, always will trade or make a deal with fellow collectors.
Lost the most money on Barber halves, I'm no expert , but it turns out even the "tough dates" are ubiquitous , offers for coins purchased from the best dealers we're always 20% behind lowest heritage auctions prices, regardless of auction date. Jeez never again.
This is where eBay makes all the difference from what I have seen because it is a platform with a lot more reach with newcomers to the hobby and you only pay about 10% fees totally - so if you added that to the final costs someone somewhere down the line would buy it even though it may take some time
Obsession with the fees will cost you money. It's net proceeds that matter. On many items, Stacks and heritage will get you 100% more money than eBay or BST
Not exactly. I am looking at it all from the next generation's point of view - for example - I gave my kid my duplicate set of morgans in a Dansco and some dealer offered a pittance which would be break even. Since it is not that big deal of a collection which is mostly in the raw (with a few slabbed ultra low grade rarities like the 1893 S in AG3 etc.) he was learning and just wanting to test and get a feel of the various opportunities offered by the market. So he decided to withdraw listing and started selling it piece by piece with the common dates first.
Incidentally, he also sold the two coin ASE reverse proof designer set for a profit of 400$ - so the middleman is something many folks might soon avoid in the future if terms are not beneficial.
Let me stop here because it is completely veering away from the topic of finger prints on a CAC stickered coin.
@TradesWithChops said:
I bet we're missing something like: theres amazing color on the coin the picture doesnt pick up.... and peace dollars with color are rare.
@Soldi said:
Sold some of my collection to a dealer in NJ , some to CAC , some to a dealer in NH.
I still have a few pieces left, but not much, always will trade or make a deal with fellow collectors.
Lost the most money on Barber halves, I'm no expert , but it turns out even the "tough dates" are ubiquitous , offers for coins purchased from the best dealers we're always 20% behind lowest heritage auctions prices, regardless of auction date. Jeez never again.
This is where eBay makes all the difference from what I have seen because it is a platform with a lot more reach with newcomers to the hobby and you only pay about 10% fees totally - so if you added that to the final costs someone somewhere down the line would buy it even though it may take some time
Obsession with the fees will cost you money. It's net proceeds that matter. On many items, Stacks and heritage will get you 100% more money than eBay or BST
Not exactly. I am looking at it all from the next generation's point of view - for example - I gave my kid my duplicate set of morgans in a Dansco and some dealer offered a pittance which would be break even. Since it is not that big deal of a collection which is mostly in the raw (with a few slabbed ultra low grade rarities like the 1893 S in AG3 etc.) he was learning and just wanting to test and get a feel of the various opportunities offered by the market. So he decided to withdraw listing and started selling it piece by piece with the common dates first.
Incidentally, he also sold the two coin ASE reverse proof designer set for a profit of 400$ - so the middleman is something many folks might soon avoid in the future if terms are not beneficial.
Let me stop here because it is completely veering away from the topic of finger prints on a CAC stickered coin.
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
@Nic said:
Folks are arguing about CAC and a 63 common date Peace Dollar?
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minis at best.
If that’s your attitude about it - and you seem to be assuming that the coin doesn’t look noticeably better in hand - you could just as easily say the same about sending the coin to NGC in the first place. And by the way, no matter how appalled you might be by the notion, some people do care about low value coins being stickered.
I just sent 2 Trade $s to NGC knowing they would detail grade but needing authentication.
For toned coins, you need a straight grade of any type to prevent people from calling it AT.
Does NT v. AT really matter on an ugly coin?
It does on "toners". Some people will like that coin.
@AMRC said:
One again. The little green sticker means.....
Its in the top 2/3's of the grade
It has original surfaces
CAC would make a market in it.
Coins have fingerprints because humans use fingers to pick up coins. Sorry if that offends you. You do not have to like them, but why do have to dislike them so much that you feel the need to share your disdain with others? Is there a coin-collecting rule out there that says a coin cannot have fingerprints? Let me guess, you like your blast white?
@TradesWithChops said:
I bet we're missing something like: theres amazing color on the coin the picture doesnt pick up.... and peace dollars with color are rare.
or something?
i hope something?
Why do you “hope something”? It’s a lowly, common date Peace dollar that happened to have been graded MS63 by NGC and received a sticker (signifying solid for the grade) from CAC. I really don’t understand the hoopla and consternation from various posters. We’re not talking about a better date and/or a 67, 66, 65 or 64 example. An MS63 shouldn’t be expected to be anything to be the least bit excited about, whether without or with a CAC sticker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf said:
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
@MFeld said:
I really don’t understand the hoopla and consternation from various posters.
"It's ugly!"
"It's overgraded!"
"It's in one of those holders!
"It's overpriced!"
"It's got a sticker!"
"I don't like it!"
Did I miss any?
The hoopla and consternation is because some people appear to be unable to recognize that not everybody likes the same things and values the same coins equally.
Why do you “hope something”? It’s a lowly, common date Peace dollar that happened to have been graded MS63 by NGC and received a sticker (signifying solid for the grade) from CAC. I really don’t understand the hoopla and consternation from various posters. We’re not talking about a better date and/or a 67, 66, 65 or 64 example. An MS63 shouldn’t be expected to be anything to be the least bit excited about, whether without or with a CAC sticker.
Well, the thread title contains "CAC" so we are collectively compelled to run it into the ground, beat the dead horse, and discuss the topic ad infinitum.
@jmlanzaf said:
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
Nothing you said refutes that. Fees had nothing to do with the performance difference in your example. You were contrasting one dealer offer against retailing the coins yourself.
@MFeld said:
I really don’t understand the hoopla and consternation from various posters.
"It's ugly!"
"It's overgraded!"
"It's in one of those holders!
"It's overpriced!"
"It's got a sticker!"
"I don't like it!"
Did I miss any?
The hoopla and consternation is because some people appear to be unable to recognize that not everybody likes the same things and values the same coins equally.
There's also the mistaken notion that CAC implies superior eye appeal. Asserted in error and then supposedly refuted by the example of this coin resulting in criticism of CAC for failing to represent this false standard.
@jmlanzaf said:
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
Nothing you said refutes that. Fees had nothing to do with the performance difference in your example. You were contrasting one dealer offer against retailing the coins yourself.
Still lost in the translation...
If you can't convince them, confuse them routine of your's ain't working
@jmlanzaf said:
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
Nothing you said refutes that. Fees had nothing to do with the performance difference in your example. You were contrasting one dealer offer against retailing the coins yourself.
Still lost in the translation...
If you can't convince them, confuse them routine of your's ain't working
LOL. It's just that you mentioned eBay in response to the complaint about the Heritage based pricing which is what I was responding to and then you followed that up with a story that didn't involve Heritage at all. Some things, obviously, can't go to major auction companies at all. But people are constantly complaining about the 20% BP's but ignore the possibility that it is well worth it. [Especially if you are getting -5 or -10% seller's premium]. If I had some tokens or medals in the $250 and up range, I'm going to get double the money from Stack's than they are ever likely to realize on eBay, for example.
@jmlanzaf said:
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
Nothing you said refutes that. Fees had nothing to do with the performance difference in your example. You were contrasting one dealer offer against retailing the coins yourself.
Still lost in the translation...
If you can't convince them, confuse them routine of your's ain't working
LOL. It's just that you mentioned eBay in response to the complaint about the Heritage fees which is what I was responding to and then you followed that up with a story that didn't involve Heritage at all. Some things, obviously, can't go to major auction companies at all. But people are constantly complaining about the 20% BP's but ignore the possibility that it is well worth it. [Especially if you are getting -5 or -10% seller's premium]. If I had some tokens or medals in the $250 and up range, I'm going to get double the money from Stack's than they are ever likely to realize on eBay, for example.
Still going around circles in trying to convince against eliminating the middleman. Greed will be the undoing in many ways
I never mentioned Heritage anywhere and was specifically sticking to an eBay point of view even though their fees are also something I don't particularly like to splurge on.
@jmlanzaf said:
There's also the mistaken notion that CAC implies superior eye appeal.
CAC's been around for what? 10 years? And people still don't understand them.
People don't want to understand them or their role in the market because they simply don't want to accept them. People who value CAC understand them and, hopefully, use them appropriately.
There are some ugly coins in 65 or higher also, much less the lowly 63. That doesn't mean they aren't 65s or 66s. Eye appeal is only one factor. If you've got a mark-free luster bomb with a distracting fingerprint, for example, it still might be a solid 66 or 67. So it will CAC and you still won't want it, but so what?
For all coins, PCGS or PCGS/CAC, there are always two prices: sight seen and sight unseen. Most price guides are either sight unseen (useful) or an average of prior sales (not terribly useful). People are always surprised by prices realized because they are comparing the actual price realized against a guide that is either reflecting a sight unseen commodity price or an average of all prior sales which might have a fairly large standard deviation due to things like eye appeal.
All MS63/CAC means on that coin is that there is a sight unseen CAC bid (currently $58).
CAC serves a great purpose in rare coins, collecting and investing. What more could a person want? A second grading service to compete with PCGS ? Then, sell the service? Now, go out and certify the certifications? When I first saw the "rattler" holders and bought David Halls book of errors "A Mercenary"s guide to the Rare Coin market" I thought to myself
"Self how could anyone out do this great idea !! "
I mean to tell you I lived through Raw coins, ANACS Black and White ohhhhh you need Color photos. BS.
Fast forward to Now, today, right now !! A discussion, a debate, insults, personal attacks, typos, and general hob-knobbery of the highest sort. All over a $35. POS (piece of silver) with Ms. Liberty gape mouthed profile stamped on it.
@jmlanzaf said:
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
Nothing you said refutes that. Fees had nothing to do with the performance difference in your example. You were contrasting one dealer offer against retailing the coins yourself.
Still lost in the translation...
If you can't convince them, confuse them routine of your's ain't working
LOL. It's just that you mentioned eBay in response to the complaint about the Heritage fees which is what I was responding to and then you followed that up with a story that didn't involve Heritage at all. Some things, obviously, can't go to major auction companies at all. But people are constantly complaining about the 20% BP's but ignore the possibility that it is well worth it. [Especially if you are getting -5 or -10% seller's premium]. If I had some tokens or medals in the $250 and up range, I'm going to get double the money from Stack's than they are ever likely to realize on eBay, for example.
I never mentioned Heritage anywhere.
Still going around circles in trying to convince against eliminating the middleman. Greed will be the undoing in many ways
I didn't say that YOU mentioned Heritage. YOU mentioned eBay in response to a post that was complaining about dealer offers based on Heritage prices. I simply responded that fees are irrelevant compared to net prices realized. [I still maintain that.] You then responded that your son sold coins on eBay which is not a counter argument to what I was saying. We appear to be talking orthogonally.
Eliminating the middle man is only useful if the middle man supplies no useful value added service.
There are things that sell for far more at Heritage than on eBay. You do not have direct access to their clients or the resources to compete with them for advertising. For those items, you are losing money by retailing them directly. That's my point.
@Soldi said:
Sold some of my collection to a dealer in NJ , some to CAC , some to a dealer in NH.
I still have a few pieces left, but not much, always will trade or make a deal with fellow collectors.
Lost the most money on Barber halves, I'm no expert , but it turns out even the "tough dates" are ubiquitous , offers for coins purchased from the best dealers we're always 20% behind lowest heritage auctions prices, regardless of auction date. Jeez never again.
I found this out when I received their payment for my one sale in their August ANA auction. The coin brought $10,000 (plus 20%, totaling $12,000 to the buyer) so I assumed I would be getting a check for $10,000. So I had to do a double take when the check was for $9,000.
I didn't think there was a seller's commission rate, but then it's been a few years since Scott Reiter was there ( I used to get 105% back in those days.)
Admittedly it's been several years since I consigned anything with HA.com.
Hmmm . . .let me see. . . .I guess Heritage realized $3000 from a $12,000 sale, working both sides of the transaction.
@jmlanzaf said:
I didn't say that YOU mentioned Heritage. YOU mentioned eBay in response to a post that was complaining about dealer offers based on Heritage prices. I simply responded that fees are irrelevant compared to net prices realized. [I still maintain that.] You then responded that your son sold coins on eBay which is not a counter argument to what I was saying. We appear to be talking orthogonally.
You prefer to spin with your take on it and we will always agree to disagree when it comes to auction houses.
"There are things that sell for far more at Heritage than on eBay. You do not have direct access to their clients or the resources to compete with them for advertising. For those items, you are losing money by retailing them directly. That's my point."
@MasonG said:
"There are things that sell for far more at Heritage than on eBay. You do not have direct access to their clients or the resources to compete with them for advertising. For those items, you are losing money by retailing them directly. That's my point."
@TradesWithChops said:
I bet we're missing something like: theres amazing color on the coin the picture doesnt pick up.... and peace dollars with color are rare.
or something?
i hope something?
Why do you “hope something”? It’s a lowly, common date Peace dollar that happened to have been graded MS63 by NGC and received a sticker (signifying solid for the grade) from CAC. I really don’t understand the hoopla and consternation from various posters. We’re not talking about a better date and/or a 67, 66, 65 or 64 example. An MS63 shouldn’t be expected to be anything to be the least bit excited about, whether without or with a CAC sticker.
For a low-budget collector, it might be just what they're looking for.
@MasonG said:
"There are things that sell for far more at Heritage than on eBay. You do not have direct access to their clients or the resources to compete with them for advertising. For those items, you are losing money by retailing them directly. That's my point."
Spin or reality? You decide.
Greed.
Greed or A-Greed.
It's not "greed" to supply a service and expect to get paid for that service. There's a reason that dealers, who have their own shops and internet sites, choose to consign certain items to Stack's or Heritage.
@Soldi said:
Sold some of my collection to a dealer in NJ , some to CAC , some to a dealer in NH.
I still have a few pieces left, but not much, always will trade or make a deal with fellow collectors.
Lost the most money on Barber halves, I'm no expert , but it turns out even the "tough dates" are ubiquitous , offers for coins purchased from the best dealers we're always 20% behind lowest heritage auctions prices, regardless of auction date. Jeez never again.
I found this out when I received their payment for my one sale in their August ANA auction. The coin brought $10,000 (plus 20%, totaling $12,000 to the buyer) so I assumed I would be getting a check for $10,000. So I had to do a double take when the check was for $9,000.
I didn't think there was a seller's commission rate, but then it's been a few years since Scott Reiter was there ( I used to get 105% back in those days.)
Admittedly it's been several years since I consigned anything with HA.com.
Hmmm . . .let me see. . . .I guess Heritage realized $3000 from a $12,000 sale, working both sides of the transaction.
@jmlanzaf said:
I didn't say that YOU mentioned Heritage. YOU mentioned eBay in response to a post that was complaining about dealer offers based on Heritage prices. I simply responded that fees are irrelevant compared to net prices realized. [I still maintain that.] You then responded that your son sold coins on eBay which is not a counter argument to what I was saying. We appear to be talking orthogonally.
You prefer to spin with your take on it and we will always agree to disagree when it comes to auction houses.
I didn't spin anything. I just pointed out, maybe orthogonally, that one should never focus on fees but net proceeds. That's not "spin", it's just a statement.
You almost seem to be suggesting that I'm a shill for auction houses. The fact is that I, and much more experienced dealers than I, use a variety of channels to sell material. Some things are worth direct retailing, if you have clients. Some things go on eBay. Some things go to other dealers. Some things go to auction houses. My personal GREED requires that I know the proper channel for every item. Direct retailing is not always the best way to realize the most money because you can't always find the right buyer.
Personally, I rarely put Morgans on eBay. The bid/ask spread is so low that it is better to wholesale most of them to a dealer than to take on the transactional risk for a couple percent increase in prices realized. On the other hand, if you don't have access to a dealer who will pay full wholesale, you are stuck with direct retailing.
To use a strictly auction house example: you can often sell for less on HA with its 20% BP than GC with its 10% BP. You want to maximize the price realized on Chinese material, get it in a Stack's or Heritage Hong Kong auction, don't put it at GC or eBay.
@jmlanzaf said:
It's not "greed" to supply a service and expect to get paid for that service. There's a reason that dealers, who have their own shops and internet sites, choose to consign certain items to Stack's or Heritage.
We have been through this before with scenarios A, B, C, D etc.
@jmlanzaf said:
I didn't spin anything. I just pointed out, maybe orthogonally, that one should never focus on fees but net proceeds. That's not "spin", it's just a statement.
So who get's to feel the pain?
@Cuprinkor who got paid 9000$ for a coin that sold for 12,000$ or the buyer who bought a 9000$ coin for 12,000$ or both of them?
Sinve you love to work with numbers, shall let you have fun with the percentages
@jmlanzaf said:
My personal GREED requires that I know the proper channel for every item.
"Greed" gets brought up here often, and it's usually in response to what some dealers or auction houses charge for their products and services. I always wonder if those who grouse about that greed, when they go to sell their coins, attempt to get the most amount of money they can for them. My guess- I bet they do.
@jmlanzaf said:
We appear to be talking orthogonally.
Just so others don't have to look it up:
Orthogonality
Description:
DescriptionIn mathematics, orthogonality is the generalization of the notion of perpendicularity to the linear algebra of bilinear forms. Two elements u and v of a vector space with bilinear form B are orthogonal when B = 0. Depending on the bilinear form, the vector space may contain nonzero self-orthogonal vectors.
@Cuprinkor who got paid 9000$ for a coin that sold for 12,000$ or the buyer who bought a 9000$ coin for 12,000$ or both of them?
Sinve you love to work with numbers, shall let you have fun with the percentages
We will never know.
Does the coin sell for $10000 on eBay where the seller takes all the risk of shipping, cancelled cc payment lost items?
Does a dealer offer less than heritage?
I’ve never used heritage or stacks but have used GC to sell coins. I knew what I was going to pay up front and let the dice roll. Could I have done better on eBay? Maybe.
Dealers and auction houses perform a service. Just like Taco Bell and jack in the box. Sure I can make burgers at home or tacos. But when I don’t feel like it, I drive through and pay for their service. Are they greedy for charging me more for tacos than I could have made them myself?
Dealers provide liquidity and a market. You don’t want those coins anymore and want cash. You can spend years learning the market, building a customer base and selling your item for the most possible. Or you can get cash in hand right now albeit less than you may get if you put it on eBay and wait months for all the lowball offers to disappear.
@bigjpst said:
We will never know.
Does the coin sell for $10000 on eBay where the seller takes all the risk of shipping, cancelled cc payment lost items?
Does a dealer offer less than heritage?
I’ve never used heritage or stacks but have used GC to sell coins. I knew what I was going to pay up front and let the dice roll. Could I have done better on eBay? Maybe.
Dealers and auction houses perform a service. Just like Taco Bell and jack in the box. Sure I can make burgers at home or tacos. But when I don’t feel like it, I drive through and pay for their service. Are they greedy for charging me more for tacos than I could have made them myself?
There was never an argument against dealers and auction houses being not a necessity for the hobby, just the gouging that is happening which is detrimental because not all coin sellers/buyers are having deep pockets to ride out the monies shelled out to the fat cat in middle who is making hefty commission monies
@Cuprinkor said:
I guess Heritage realized $3000 from a $12,000 sale, working both sides of the transaction.
Again, this thread is not about it, but there are parallels to it because this CAC stickered coin is also an anomaly of sorts.
We could go on and on about all this but nothing is going to change
@MasonG said:
"Gouging" = "Somebody who has the nerve to charge what they think the service they provide is worth, when I don't want to pay that much".
Were you deliberately trying to avoid the word "Swindle"
Comments
The fact that people would send such an inexpensive and ugly example to begin with is honestly appalling. Who cares if a cheap coin is stickered? Any putative value added is de minimis at best.
This is where eBay makes all the difference from what I have seen because it is a platform with a lot more reach with newcomers to the hobby and you only pay about 10% fees totally - so if you added that to the final costs someone somewhere down the line would buy it even though it may take some time
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I understand. Guess overpriced is a nicer term
If that’s your attitude about it - and you seem to be assuming that the coin doesn’t look noticeably better in hand - you could just as easily say the same about sending the coin to NGC in the first place. And by the way, no matter how appalled you might be by the notion, some people do care about low value coins being stickered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you posted some of your coins and the prices you paid, I bet somebody would think some of them were overpriced and you overpaid for them. Would that be a nice thing to say?
I don’t mind as I bought some coins with pretty toning, as I see the value in them. I overpay for exceptional eye appeal But I didn’t pay huge multiples of pcgs price guide. Btw I did see more of the price value in the 1941 Lulu walker as it has great color.
Obsession with the fees will cost you money. It's net proceeds that matter. On many items, Stacks and heritage will get you 100% more money than eBay or BST
I just sent 2 Trade $s to NGC knowing they would detail grade but needing authentication.
For toned coins, you need a straight grade of any type to prevent people from calling it AT.
Does NT v. AT really matter on an ugly coin?
That's fair. And I would agree with that statement as well. I don't understand sending sub $100 coins to TPGs absent some sentimental reason. You spend more on plastic than the coin is worth.
I bet we're missing something like: theres amazing color on the coin the picture doesnt pick up.... and peace dollars with color are rare.
or something?
i hope something?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Not exactly. I am looking at it all from the next generation's point of view - for example - I gave my kid my duplicate set of morgans in a Dansco and some dealer offered a pittance which would be break even. Since it is not that big deal of a collection which is mostly in the raw (with a few slabbed ultra low grade rarities like the 1893 S in AG3 etc.) he was learning and just wanting to test and get a feel of the various opportunities offered by the market. So he decided to withdraw listing and started selling it piece by piece with the common dates first.
Incidentally, he also sold the two coin ASE reverse proof designer set for a profit of 400$ - so the middleman is something many folks might soon avoid in the future if terms are not beneficial.
Let me stop here because it is completely veering away from the topic of finger prints on a CAC stickered coin.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Doubtful in my view.
Congratulations. But I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with what I said.
It does on "toners". Some people will like that coin.
I opened the eBay link with the hopes I could offer $200. bid and the auction has been closed by the seller.
peacockcoins
Anyone want to discuss my ugly peace dollar? (it is much darker in hand)
Young Numismatist
One would have to be pretty new to this forum to find that surprising!
Smitten with DBLCs.
Guess again Miss Cleo
So that's at the top end of the 73,021 in MS63? Okay then.
Moonlight. Maybe.
Why do you “hope something”? It’s a lowly, common date Peace dollar that happened to have been graded MS63 by NGC and received a sticker (signifying solid for the grade) from CAC. I really don’t understand the hoopla and consternation from various posters. We’re not talking about a better date and/or a 67, 66, 65 or 64 example. An MS63 shouldn’t be expected to be anything to be the least bit excited about, whether without or with a CAC sticker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lost in translation - basically disagreeing with your statement about losing money ("Obsession with the fees will cost you money") by avoiding the steep charges levied by auction houses
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
"It's ugly!"
"It's overgraded!"
"It's in one of those holders!
"It's overpriced!"
"It's got a sticker!"
"I don't like it!"
Did I miss any?
The hoopla and consternation is because some people appear to be unable to recognize that not everybody likes the same things and values the same coins equally.
Well, the thread title contains "CAC" so we are collectively compelled to run it into the ground, beat the dead horse, and discuss the topic ad infinitum.
Nothing you said refutes that. Fees had nothing to do with the performance difference in your example. You were contrasting one dealer offer against retailing the coins yourself.
Still lost in the translation...
There's also the mistaken notion that CAC implies superior eye appeal. Asserted in error and then supposedly refuted by the example of this coin resulting in criticism of CAC for failing to represent this false standard.
If you can't convince them, confuse them routine of your's ain't working
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
CAC's been around for what? 10 years? And people still don't understand them.
LOL. It's just that you mentioned eBay in response to the complaint about the Heritage based pricing which is what I was responding to and then you followed that up with a story that didn't involve Heritage at all. Some things, obviously, can't go to major auction companies at all. But people are constantly complaining about the 20% BP's but ignore the possibility that it is well worth it. [Especially if you are getting -5 or -10% seller's premium]. If I had some tokens or medals in the $250 and up range, I'm going to get double the money from Stack's than they are ever likely to realize on eBay, for example.
Still going around circles in trying to convince against eliminating the middleman. Greed will be the undoing in many ways
I never mentioned Heritage anywhere and was specifically sticking to an eBay point of view even though their fees are also something I don't particularly like to splurge on.
Edited for sentence structuring.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
People don't want to understand them or their role in the market because they simply don't want to accept them. People who value CAC understand them and, hopefully, use them appropriately.
There are some ugly coins in 65 or higher also, much less the lowly 63. That doesn't mean they aren't 65s or 66s. Eye appeal is only one factor. If you've got a mark-free luster bomb with a distracting fingerprint, for example, it still might be a solid 66 or 67. So it will CAC and you still won't want it, but so what?
For all coins, PCGS or PCGS/CAC, there are always two prices: sight seen and sight unseen. Most price guides are either sight unseen (useful) or an average of prior sales (not terribly useful). People are always surprised by prices realized because they are comparing the actual price realized against a guide that is either reflecting a sight unseen commodity price or an average of all prior sales which might have a fairly large standard deviation due to things like eye appeal.
All MS63/CAC means on that coin is that there is a sight unseen CAC bid (currently $58).
CAC serves a great purpose in rare coins, collecting and investing. What more could a person want? A second grading service to compete with PCGS ? Then, sell the service? Now, go out and certify the certifications? When I first saw the "rattler" holders and bought David Halls book of errors "A Mercenary"s guide to the Rare Coin market" I thought to myself
"Self how could anyone out do this great idea !! "
I mean to tell you I lived through Raw coins, ANACS Black and White ohhhhh you need Color photos. BS.
Fast forward to Now, today, right now !! A discussion, a debate, insults, personal attacks, typos, and general hob-knobbery of the highest sort. All over a $35. POS (piece of silver) with Ms. Liberty gape mouthed profile stamped on it.
May you live in interesting times.
I didn't say that YOU mentioned Heritage. YOU mentioned eBay in response to a post that was complaining about dealer offers based on Heritage prices. I simply responded that fees are irrelevant compared to net prices realized. [I still maintain that.] You then responded that your son sold coins on eBay which is not a counter argument to what I was saying. We appear to be talking orthogonally.
Eliminating the middle man is only useful if the middle man supplies no useful value added service.
There are things that sell for far more at Heritage than on eBay. You do not have direct access to their clients or the resources to compete with them for advertising. For those items, you are losing money by retailing them directly. That's my point.
And that is just buyer fees.
The above quote is from the thread https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/833421/anyone-know-what-heritages-selling-commissions-are
You prefer to spin with your take on it and we will always agree to disagree when it comes to auction houses.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
"There are things that sell for far more at Heritage than on eBay. You do not have direct access to their clients or the resources to compete with them for advertising. For those items, you are losing money by retailing them directly. That's my point."
Spin or reality? You decide.
Greed.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
For a low-budget collector, it might be just what they're looking for.
Young Numismatist
Greed or A-Greed.
It's not "greed" to supply a service and expect to get paid for that service. There's a reason that dealers, who have their own shops and internet sites, choose to consign certain items to Stack's or Heritage.
I didn't spin anything. I just pointed out, maybe orthogonally, that one should never focus on fees but net proceeds. That's not "spin", it's just a statement.
You almost seem to be suggesting that I'm a shill for auction houses. The fact is that I, and much more experienced dealers than I, use a variety of channels to sell material. Some things are worth direct retailing, if you have clients. Some things go on eBay. Some things go to other dealers. Some things go to auction houses. My personal GREED requires that I know the proper channel for every item. Direct retailing is not always the best way to realize the most money because you can't always find the right buyer.
Personally, I rarely put Morgans on eBay. The bid/ask spread is so low that it is better to wholesale most of them to a dealer than to take on the transactional risk for a couple percent increase in prices realized. On the other hand, if you don't have access to a dealer who will pay full wholesale, you are stuck with direct retailing.
To use a strictly auction house example: you can often sell for less on HA with its 20% BP than GC with its 10% BP. You want to maximize the price realized on Chinese material, get it in a Stack's or Heritage Hong Kong auction, don't put it at GC or eBay.
We have been through this before with scenarios A, B, C, D etc.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13059717/#Comment_13059717
So who get's to feel the pain?
@Cuprinkor who got paid 9000$ for a coin that sold for 12,000$ or the buyer who bought a 9000$ coin for 12,000$ or both of them?
Sinve you love to work with numbers, shall let you have fun with the percentages
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
"Greed" gets brought up here often, and it's usually in response to what some dealers or auction houses charge for their products and services. I always wonder if those who grouse about that greed, when they go to sell their coins, attempt to get the most amount of money they can for them. My guess- I bet they do.
Just sayin'.
Just so others don't have to look it up:
Orthogonality
Description:
DescriptionIn mathematics, orthogonality is the generalization of the notion of perpendicularity to the linear algebra of bilinear forms. Two elements u and v of a vector space with bilinear form B are orthogonal when B = 0. Depending on the bilinear form, the vector space may contain nonzero self-orthogonal vectors.
peacockcoins
We will never know.
Does the coin sell for $10000 on eBay where the seller takes all the risk of shipping, cancelled cc payment lost items?
Does a dealer offer less than heritage?
I’ve never used heritage or stacks but have used GC to sell coins. I knew what I was going to pay up front and let the dice roll. Could I have done better on eBay? Maybe.
Dealers and auction houses perform a service. Just like Taco Bell and jack in the box. Sure I can make burgers at home or tacos. But when I don’t feel like it, I drive through and pay for their service. Are they greedy for charging me more for tacos than I could have made them myself?
My Ebay Store
Dealers provide liquidity and a market. You don’t want those coins anymore and want cash. You can spend years learning the market, building a customer base and selling your item for the most possible. Or you can get cash in hand right now albeit less than you may get if you put it on eBay and wait months for all the lowball offers to disappear.
My Ebay Store
There was never an argument against dealers and auction houses being not a necessity for the hobby, just the gouging that is happening which is detrimental because not all coin sellers/buyers are having deep pockets to ride out the monies shelled out to the fat cat in middle who is making hefty commission monies
Again, this thread is not about it, but there are parallels to it because this CAC stickered coin is also an anomaly of sorts.
We could go on and on about all this but nothing is going to change
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
"Gouging" = "Somebody who has the nerve to charge what they think the service they provide is worth, when I don't want to pay that much".
Were you deliberately trying to avoid the word "Swindle"
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
The elephant seal in this photo is this forum's reaction after the guy showed him the MS-63 CAC Peace dollar...
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets