What is the point in VF20, 25, 30 and 35 grades?
jesbroken
Posts: 10,175 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've thought about this a long time. Unless a coin is a true rarity, the values between most average U.S. Coins in the VF range is minimal. As in IHC's, for all 4 grades "LIBERTY" is complete, the lines in the shield are fairly complete, feathers appear near to each grade. Why not a 25 and 35 grade and be done with it. Why split hairs on the very minor differnces. We don't do it for good, very good, nor extra fine grades so why continue with these? Also, I might add that the AU53 grade is fairly useless. This is just my opinion and hopefully a discussion can occur without the usual bashing. All have opinions, just state them without the baggage that usually occurs.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
0
Comments
So F12 to VF25 to VF35 to EF 40, and then at 50 to 55
Think about this for a minute, from an accurate grading standpoint, not a pricing standpoint.
AG to G = 1 pt
G to VG = 4 pts (but a useful 2 pt step for in-betweens)
VG to F = 4 pts (but another 2 pt step for in-betweens)
F to VF = 8 pts (in-between at F15 {3 up 5 dn} ... you get the picture)
VF to EF = 20 pts
EF to AU = 10 pts (step at 5 pts)
AU to AU58 = 8 pts (steps at 2 or 3pts)
MS are 1 pt between each grade (or 2 to 3 pts between Unc, Choice Gem, Superb and Perfect)
So, the largest spread of a full grade (20 pts), or in your case 13 to 10 pts, in arguably one of the most collected grade ranges of US coins (VF to Ch EF), and the largest spread between split grades (5 pts) is too much?
Generally speaking, using the current system in circulated grades I may get a good argument at one step point (between a 50 and a 53, or a 15 and a 20, or a 25 and a 30) ... but those arguments generally start to die down at two step points.
my 4 bits
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Well said. Well argued.
I have a few gold coins in 53 that are not 50's and PCGS didn't seem to think they were 55's. I see no need to get rid of 53 or are they going to all of a sudden say they are 55's? Two up is better than 3 down.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Perhaps the issue is that we refer to coin grades as AG, G, VG, F, VF, EF, AU, MS.
As you point out, there is a huge spread between VF and EF. So should we insert another grade?
(Not that it will happen, mind you...)
But if we wanted something between "very" and "extreme", what would it be?
So a WF coin would be ~vf30. It would be pronounced "wery fine".
Just imagine how Ensign Checkov would say it...
am
Getting rid of a few grades here and there sure would be giving CAC alot more business!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
But why are there so many (20) points from VF to XF? And considering that the differences at that grade level might be less significant than for higher grades, I wouldn’t be against fewer VF grades
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@pursuitofliberty wow! very good argument. Not a side of the situation I really looked at. I just looked at a ton of coins in the vf20 thru vf35 and just did not see enough differences to warrant individual grades. And yes I think we could do away with the AU53 grade and stick with AU50, 55 and 58. Again not raining on anyones 53 or lower. Value guides and sales histories would still avail anyone wishing to buy or sell a 53 an avenue of value.
Just take a look at the various grading systems, photograde, NGC and various dealer sites, suchas Eagle Eye. The variations between VF20 and VF35 is very slight. I just say why not a VF20 and a VF30 or 25 and 35 add plus(which is used elsewhere) for a special coin. Nothing would hurt anyones coin in the discontinued ranges. Their coins would sell as they did before, plenty of guidelines abound. Just new coins would have a 20 or 30 grade with a plus if required. This is just an opinion and I respect everyone's opinion as much as my own.
jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Agreed. We probably would have been fine with a 60 point scale, with VF running from 20 to 25, XF starting at 30, and MS starting at 50. But it's a little too late for that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Does it matter what you call them? Take away the letters and you have a 70 point scale. Given how close a 40 is to a 50 in some series and how different a 20 can be from a 40, I don't think it's that many extra numbers
You start doing that, I'm going to ask why you need 11 MS grades. Wouldn't 5 be enough?
Since we don't use all the numbers, you have 3 sub-good grades, 2 good grades, 2 VG grades, 2 F grades, 4 VF grades, 2 XF grades, 4 AU grades and 11 MS grades. If you consider the need to have greater discrimination in higher grades, the problem isn't too many VF grades but too few XF grades. Lol
Actually, if you had 3 VF and 3 XF grades, that might be more balanced. But it's such a minor change, who really cares. Call a 35 XF instead of VF.
Or call it wery fine, WF. 😜
What is the point? Simple. MONEY.
Am I the only one who just wants to keep the status quo?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No. There are two of us.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
No. I'm with you. We all know what they mean. I see no compelling reason to change.
Dang ... thread got legs.
While I don't think we should change, mostly because we all have grown accustomed to what all the grades mean, and volumes have been written, re-written and critiqued ad infinitum ... the bold parts above probably makes the most sense to me if we ever wanted to do a complete do-over. Had the original grades been VF20 to VF30, and then EF35 to EF45 and then AU50 to AU58, each could have had three levels and it probably wouldn't have ever needed more.
However. based on the grades we define now, I think all have their place. And for what I have focused on for many years (mostly AU), as far as 50 to 58 goes, I would also make the argument that 53 is a viable grade and serves a worthwhile step in the process, even if it might be the least useful split from VF12 to AU58.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
20 Very Fine
25 Select Very Fine
30 Choice Very Fine
35 About Xf
Makes perfect sense to me.
Sorry, not advancing a must change theory, just a why do we need so many grades in VF when it's real hard to differentiate between any one grade of the 4. Just look at a hundred or so of any type coin and compare the VF grades and it seems ridiculous. Not so from 40 to 45 or 50 to 55 to 58. I'm all for not changing, now. Good arguments, actually one good argument.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I’m with you
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Or remove the words entirely and just use the numbers...
That’s what numbers is for.
Here's my verbal way to translate to a number. The different VF grades are very apparent to me with Barber Halves.
20 Very Fine .....................Yeap
25 Select Very Fine .........VF+
30 Choice Very Fine ........VF-XF
35 About Xf ......................Nearly XF
Can't do that in the world of the bay unless they are certified.
I think the number of VF grades is because the human brain, and especially the collector's human brain, is wanting to see differentiation between various specimens all of which look alike.
Successful transactions here and ATS with: jwitten, Rob41281, bajjerfan, cucamongacoin, Jim F., physics-fan3.14, x2rider, Wahoo554, Weather11am, Relaxn, jimineez1, Ronyahski, Bliggity, SurfinxHI, McGrump (thru BAJJERFAN), ms71, Downtown1974, ad4400
How much for a '35 $1 in 35?
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Same goes for stickers, plus grades, etc. If I'm counting correctly there's 21 different grades for Mint State grades. That's way too many IMHO. I don't see how there could be consistent grading with that many.
When you go to sell your coins, would you prefer to get more money or less?
Only one of my coins is stickered. It came that way when I bought it. My heirs can worry about stickering everything. I'm not worried about it.
Plenty, when you are dealing with moderately circulated better rarity 18th and 19th century coins. For example, a VF-35 Chain Cent is worth a good more than VF-20.
I think the horse is out of the barn right now with respect to grading adjectives and numbers. However, when this grading scheme was first devised, it wasn't meant to be universal and it was built out during a time period where folks put far more emphasis on finding and obtaining circulated coinage than the MS pieces many chase today. Therefore, we are using a system with verbiage intended for a different scheme, but it is now likely cemented in place.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
A separate grade for fully original mint luster!
Squawk 7500
5 pts between, A,B and C for each grade, why do we need less when the world class graders can distinguish between these?
Many people forget that the original Sheldon scale was VALUE-based for a specific large cent.
The 1949 edition of Sheldon's book is hard to find.
The reason that VF is 20 and 30 is because a Very Fine coin was valued at 20-30x the value of the poorest recognizable version of that date. The 25 and 35 values were added after the original (1949) version. EF45, AU53, 55, and 58 were all added. The original scale had MS60, MS65, and MS70. But it also had G5 and VG7!
Late edit: VG7 not VF7... If only I could tipe gud.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I've been collecting in the VF range in copper cents and Barber quarters and am comfortable with this analogy.
Yeah I think the cats out of the bag. I don't know how you can change at this point.
If there is a change will people resubmit? I would say few.
I have long felt that there are way too many grading points.... Splitting hairs in most cases. I know it will not change, and likely to even get worse. I realize there are many who want their coin to 'be the best it can be'... And more power to y'all.... One or two points, especially in lower grades, is just not important to me. Of course, if I sold coins, it might be more significant.
Cheers, RickO
I currently have more coins within the VF grade range than others, about 40 half dollars 1794-1807. The grading scale works well, PCGS does an excellent job of grading VF coins, and I don't see any reason to change the grading scale.
The time a coin spends in circulation within the XF range (also AU) is much less than VF, to go from an XF45 to an XF40 is a relatively short time frame. A coin spends a much longer time in circulation to receive enough wear to go from VF35 to VF20, and the 15 points of difference enables the greater degree of wear to be indicated in the 4 VF grades, 20, 25, 30, 35.
There is no need to change a grading scale that works well, other than to generate more revenue for TPG's.
In some series, four VF grades make sense due to the wide price spread within the VF grade. An obvious example would be early US coins. It's probably less necessary for the more modern coins but you can't have a grading scale just for expensive early coins and another scale for the less expensive modern coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You could. EAC.
[Not that I'm advocating it. ]
My point is that you (and everyone else) have converted a value-based scale to a wear-based scale (indirect value).
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
BStrauss3 said:
Sheldon's scale was value-based but determined by degree of wear.
It might be considered splitting hairs to some, but I would have no issue with the TPG's using G5, VG7, and also F18. The Sheldon scale evolved into the much need one-point differences MS60-70, and further into the + grades, along with the AU grades. The circulated grade brackets work well for indicating the degree of wear on early coins, that translate back to value - more on some series than others as in chain cents and small eagle half dollars.
When it comes to very old and expensive coins, I see the point of the various AU grades. I have seen numerous Bust Dollars in various grades of AU. You can tell the difference, and the price points between them are significant. I have seen at least 20 coins with AU 58 meat on them net graded to AU 50 because of bleaching, light cleaning, artificial wine colored toning, etc.
Coins of this area are scarce, and net grading is allowed for conditions for which later dated coins would receive a body bag.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
it seems the reasoning for so many VF grades is twofold: those are highly collected grades for many series and that is a point where the design is still visible but easily worn away from a bit more time in circulation.
It is a good reference for me in pricing different types of material assuming price guide supports it. Especially if there is a big valuation gulf between vf 20 and xf 40.
Many of the classic coin series have significant price differences between VF20 and VF35, so apparently somebody cares. Me, for example.
Dave
I don't see anything wrong with four different VF grades. What I don't understand is 21(!!!) different Mint state grades. I guess if I give it a little thought I DO understand it.
Especially when a significant percentage of "mint state" coins are AU anyway.....lol