Dipping coins makes one a coin doctor
CopperWire
Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
This was the prevailing attitude from TPGs and board members about 15 years ago. I agree with the statement because there is no skirting the fact that one is diddling with the coins. You can't half-diddle, even if you call it conservation...the moment chemicals come out of the drawer, we got a coin doctor.
Oh and if you bought a coin with the intent to dip, you are definitely a doctor. Please convince me otherwise, I genuinely want to know why this part of numismatics took a 180 turn in such a relatively short period of time.
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When ricko and I dip a coin with extremely ugly toning, we prefer to call it coin conservation.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Even 15 years ago on this forum there was a line drawn between dipping a coin and what was considered to be doctoring. There were some who disagreed, of course, but most people thought ATing a coin to cover up hairlines or even to feed the toning craze, moving metal around with tools, applying putty or other foreign substances was coin doctoring but using acetone or even coin dips like Tarnex weren’t really considered to be doctoring. MS70 was at first considered to be ok, but deliberately using MS70 to turn copper coins purple was considered to be AT to feed the toning craze and crossed the line. Over dipping was always frowned upon, but not really called doctoring, just that it was looked at as a bad thing because it ruined the appearance of the coin. But lightly dipping a coin when it was appropriate wasn’t really looked down on 15 years ago on the forums. People used to teach others how to do it so newbies wouldn’t over dip or leave dip residue on the coins and others didn’t brand the people posting about it as coin doctors. People used to routinely recommend dipping proof coins in acetone before submitting them for grading to lower the chances of milk spotting or to remove PVC too without others calling them doctors.
Mr_Spud
Dipping coins is a form of doctoring coins. Some types of doctoring are much more widely accepted, tolerated (and in some cases, encouraged) than others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So conservation of a coin is doctoring? Shame on PCGS and NGC.
Ken
“Conservation” is typically distinguished from dipping.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So tell me just what the difference is outside of a different word. I am always willing to learn.
To make things very clear I have been a Coin Doctor for close to 20 years if dipping is doctoring.
Ken
The concept that properly dipping a coin that may benefit from said dipping is coin doctoring is a lie propagated by the major players in the market to limit competition.
Or I'm just talking a pile of smack. You decide.
Actually, just read what Mark says. He knows his stuff.
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
Dipping = using acid to remove metal/tarnish (metal oxide).
Conserving = using a solvent like acetone to remove contaminants. Leaves the metal untouched.
Like everything else, there’s good doctors and bad doctors.
The term "Coin Doctor" has nothing to do with the typical coin collector who uses MS70, acetone, etc. Collectors who use those products are are just having fun with their coins. No big deal.......Coin Doctoring is an entirely different matter. Coin Doctoring as I understand it is the unethical practice of altering coins to deceive buyers for profit. I could be wrong.
Hole filling, toning to cover blemishes, purposely using lighting to hide blemishes or appear to enhance reflection depth etc all to bilk potential buyer.
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Just look at the Norweb/Jack Lee 1893 S Morgan dollar.
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Mad money. I have coins selling at GC now and that money for that coin is crazy! I will say though very impressed with GC and the return I am getting so far on my coins. Ends Sunday.
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Yep!
These are NOT
Artificial colors. Lol
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Why would they poof it? Is talking about cleaning coins a poofable offense? Did not know that.
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I think people like to say "poof" because they have no way to add to a spirited conversation. I am loving all of the answers and they are helping me better understand the history.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
As I've said before, I think dipping is okay to remove surface crud that has formed on a coin. That's it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I just checked out this coin. The oxidation seems to tell a story that it has a natural patina. I do see members talking about dipping coins with plans to store them in folders with known sulphur contaminants. "just to see what happens" with the new tarnishing.
It seems some would argue that dipping is okay but adding it to the folder afterwards is when coin doctoring begins? The new toning will not be original, the surfaces have been through a chemical and physical reaction to make it appear better, and the new toning will be "wild" "monster" and off to auction!!
Anything more than acetone, well, yes, that makes a coin doctor......
I don't think so.
I seriously have no idea about this.
When one acetone dips a coin to remove gunk and etc., I feel that it is not meant to deceive a purchaser to promote a higher sales amount. They are not doctoring the coin. When the coin is sent in to a TPG, they determine the grade. If we all know that if there were a way to remove fingerprints on a coin that it would grade higher.
Please educate me.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I really appreciate your perspective, especially the part about intent to gain a larger sales amount But what about dipping to improve the value of one's own collection...the intent to gain value of the coin is still there. We may be getting deeper into the ethics behind conservation/doctoring/cleaning. This thread is helping me with lots of insight, so thanks to those who responded with valuable information.
1.) a very high percentage of the coins from the 19th Century and 20th Century have been dipped, rinsed, wiped or in some way had their original surfaces altered. this is pretty much acknowledged by anyone with a Numismatic backbone and no niche to protect.
2.) wishing to distinguish between acetone and everything else is just ridiculous.
3.) wishing to play with words like "conservation" leave me dumbfounded.
4.) there is a reason why PCGS chooses to use the term Improperly cleaned.
5.) if everyone who has ever done anything to a coin that the narrow parameters of this thread call "doctoring" there would be virtually no one left standing.
6.) if every coin that has had its original surfaces monkeyed with, no matter what the results, were to vanish, I suspect there wouldn't be much left to collect.
7.) go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. that doesn't change the truth.
( “Conservation” is typically distinguished from dipping.)
Any idea of the "Conservation" process?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
In my opinion, true conservation is about preserving, not merely removing toning, etc. Here’s a definition I saw in a Coin Week article, which I think sounds reasonable: “Coin conservation is the stabilization and removal of potentially harmful residue on the surface of a coin.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
“Coin conservation is the stabilization and removal of potentially harmful residue on the surface of a coin.”
OK - words said - now how exactly do they do that?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I don’t know what’s done, but it’s likely that a number of other posters do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Guilty as charged.....bought a slew of brown box Ikes, years ago. All hazy and ugly (no toning, proofs). Dipped them all in MS70/Distilled water (50/50). All came out beautiful. Put away for several years and then sold off and still looked great. I did not consider that doctoring but it surely was. The result was excellent and they coins looked as minted. There are a few times that a quick dip is beneficial. I'd never dip something not modern though.
bob
@MFeld and I both served on a special PNG task force to create a Coin Doctoring Definition for industry-wide use.
Not hobby-wide.
Purists and scientists can disagree with it. John Albanese, with Laurie Sperber's approval, placed me in the group as the resident conservationist cum coin-doctor and practical chemist.
I side completely with the scientific basis of Mark's definition of (not simplistically, but for simplicity's sake) dipping in acid as "cleaning". One micron of skin lost and the skin is no longer "original". Neutron-microscope confirmed
If you want some hi-falutin' about semantics and what the industry has already accepted vs. moral probity and intellectual rigor, have at it. Perhaps only @Sonorandesertrat will be able to laugh at the sub-atomic nature of the debate. You should hear us go on about conservation and the conservative application of cavitation
"It's not about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; it's how many get killed dancing on it" - Martin Luther, 1584.
There is a Genuine/Details slabbed coin at GC that is labeled "Whizzed". Anybody collect whizzed coins? I bid on the slabbed Genuine/Details coins that only have "Cleaned" on the label. Nothing else. Great older coins on the cheap that would be out of my budget otherwise. I'm looking at nine coins from 1854 to 1927. Six of them older than 1900.
Would you get a PhD?
For the purist, @keets and @MFeld, have defined doctoring. Both in the hobby, and the profession, (as indicated by @ColonelJessup and the multiple opinions above), there are degrees of acceptability. It seems that most of us have, for one reason or another, strayed into the territory of coin doctoring. Most will define it as 'what others do to enhance a coin's appearance'. Certainly not what 'I' do!!
Over the many years I have been here, I have seen several attempts at defining what 'doctoring' is.... The most memorable, many years ago, brought it down to 'intent'. If what was done, was performed with the 'intent' to enhance the coin's value for sale - and deception of the customer, then it was 'doctoring'. The debate is endless and tiresome. For me, I will remove snot or boogers with acetone, and I do not give an obese rodent's derriere if anyone does not like it. I do not care how others may label that - or me. I will evaluate any coin and decide for myself what is acceptable. For the rest of this vast audience, have fun, enjoy the hobby/business - or not. Wail, cry, gnash your teeth in frustration. I will watch, smile and pour a glass of Cabernet, meanwhile enjoying my coins. Cheers, RickO
I am in the dipping is a form of doctoring camp. It is done to change the appearance of the coin. I am not against it and in past collecting have probably owned a few dipped WLH's and SLQ's. There are different degrees of doctoring and have changed over time. When my father collected coins in the 40's and 50's cleaning was not as offensive as it is now. Who knows where it will be in another 50-75 years? Maybe dipping will be a no-no then. Time will tell.
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When one owns a coin, the before and after is subjective until it's for sale. IMO. Peace Roy
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I had a dealer tell me once that he hated to dip coins but if a coin had ugly toning it was impossible for him to sell so he had no real choice but to dip it. I wonder how many here who are against dipping any coin would pass on buying a coin because it has ugly toning.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Mostly agree, and perhaps things have changed in the last 15 years…because I once received an email from a person with an historical sounding name, who worked for our hosts, specifically soliciting my silver dollar business ‘if you don’t have time to dip them, we can do that for you.’
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
The Colonel and Mark would know, but my memory is that the Task force in the end could not agree on a single definition.
Some forms seem additive - baking, gassing, moving metal. Other forms are subtractive - dipping, cleaning, whizzing.
I have always preferred the term messed-with to describe a coin. A very inclusive term.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Below is the definition of doctoring, that was finally adopted. Ultimately, I wasn’t able to get enough other votes to side with my belief that dipping should have been included as a form of doctoring.
“Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following:
1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, “lasering” and adding or removing mint marks.
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occurring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.“
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The "task force" did not reach agreement, nor did it have to. I passed along a four-page report with many details that was digested by the "statement committee". The "dipping issue" was never resolved via debate. It had been resolved 35-40 years previously by the market.
“… by qualified professionals…”
The world is one big grey area, but I find the need to add the above phrase to rationalize dipping to be interesting.
For the record, I have no problem with dipping as a concept.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
The final statement by PNG was sufficiently vague that it was commercially viable. And Laurie shut up because a good-faith effort was made on defining the problem and the public's consciousness was raised.
Both of those statements are my personal (and partial) conclusions. I was happy more light was shed on the subject.
A story that can be verified:
October 2008 there's a 1792 half-disme NGC MS61 in a Stacks sale on a Tuesday night in NYC and Kevin Lipton's office in Beverly Hills is burglarized over the weekend. I was told this is how we got lucky. Preparation is better than instinct alone
So I buy it (partnered with Ron Karp) over the phone for $5K over our limit - total $155K all-in.
t's dipped-white but not uber-NCS white (there is skin remaining).
It's got a lot of lines that you'd rather not but are merely semi-ouchy.
it's decently struck,
it looks wrong and it looks right.
Ron and I disagree on sending the coin in for a crossover, but $500 is cheap for a grab at getting lucky.
I get the coin back a couple of weeks later with a signed Post-it note that says "We both know this is a piece of sh!t.. David" -
I don't know why I have the coin in my pocket when I'm having lunch with John Albanese, but I pull the slab out (with a wink and a nod) and tell him the story. His not-totally-word-for-word observation
"Maybe you could crack it out and put it on a window-sill for a while. It's got enough skin that it might take. But remember, you have to forget you put it there or it's intentional".
I personally believe it’s coin doctoring, and I wouldn’t do it myself. I must admit though, I did dip a few Lincoln cents in copper cleaner back in the 70s!
Dave
I was at a coin club meeting a few years ago where a former ANA president was putting on a “coin conservation” demonstration—he touted himself as an expert. He said the same thing as above, except he seemed to take pleasure in dipping coins. Among some other odd techniques, right in front of the club members he took (what I thought was) a reasonably toned, AU seated half, said it had been in his shop unsold for a few months, so it was time to change its look…broke it out of its 2x2, dipped it to a bright white, stapled it into a new 2x2, and then bragged that it would now probably sell within a couple of weeks. I thought the whole “show” he put on was disgusting and I’ll never forget it or him. True story.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
I wonder how many of the club members were so impressed by the miraculous “improvement” of the coin they ran home and dipped out their own coins…..reminds me of a coin club meeting ~25 years ago…I’d put some of my duplicate late date walkers in the club auction. All had golden/brownish rim tone over the luster, from long term album storage. None sold, and I was told they were ugly and asked if I’d gotten them from a house that had a fire. And no, I didn’t dip them afterwards. I held them for more appreciative folks.
There was a coin dealer several years ago, John Gervasoni from New Jersey, who many people thought might be "connected". I always liked John, and finally asked him "John, have you ever had anybody "whacked"? He looked me straight in the eye and said, "I've NEVER had anyone whacked...that didn't deserve it...."
Personally, I've never dipped a coin that didn't deserve it....
Some coins just need to be dipped. I've always thought the definition of coin doctoring is ADDING something to the
surface of a coin, not removing something.