Before you go back too many times for more sets… submit one or two orders to pcgs of your best coins found. If and when they come back many grades Under what you expected, reset your plans, goals and expectations.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
A long time ago (17+ years ago), one could strike a deal with PCGS bulk and drop off hundreds of 1960–1990’s Mint Sets with min. grade requirements that could make the submitter decent money if anything good came out of the sets. The “reject fee” for all coins failing to achieve the grade was cheap enough to give it a shot. When PCGS discontinued this bulk program due to the net money per coin handled being way below what they desired, I was told that the chief bulk grader of this material described his daily hunt for nice coins as akin to “eating soup with a fork”. I never forgot that description of this work.
Yet, IMHO this is the real way to build a world class modern registry set. To get one’s hands dirty and do the work themselves. Not to stroke a check and then claim the pedigree forever on great modern coins. The pedigree belongs to the “hunter” who found the coin often in the middle of a 10 or 12 hour shift of screening a massive pile of clad or state quarters, Presidential dollars, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Yeah that's the situation. Only people with a shi*load of money and time can play. It's no longer for the common man. But PCGS in its efforts to be the last word in grading (thank you David Hall for all you have given us) hasn't loosened the rules surrounding Bulk Submissions to include anyone who isnt a real time coin dealer.
However, the economics of grading today mean that many grade-able coins sit somewhere in a vault, or improperly stored in an attic or a damp basement, awaiting the inevitable degradation of whatever they are stored in (see my past post for evidence and mea culpa) Meanwhile new issues get bid into the stratosphere. PCGS should innovate by allowing bulk grading of mint coin sets. They have rules which prevent that so you end up cutting up the set and going only for the popular coin.
it's a lottery. If you think you have a might 65 or higher, and the difference between a 64 and a 65 is big, like $400, but a 64 grade barely covers the postage, you are playing a risky game. You will most likely be shot down, and then what is that coin worth after that, minus the cost of grading. In this scenario, which we are all well aquaintented, a lower than expected graded coin in a PGCS holder, value is most likely less than your investment in the grading lottery. (The breakeven is the cost of submission, plus the price you paid to get your hands on the coin.in the first place) You can find some high grade coins (but low demand) for under $30 , which is the cost of a PCGS grading ordeal. In that case its like buying the coin for free, though you cant sell it for a higher price, unless the entire coin market improves, and not just key dates and rarities.
Sorry if I appear cynical, but I have had PCGS memberships forever, and I'm a good customer and fan of PCGS.
“When you don't know what you're talking about, it's hard to know when you're finished.” - Tommy Smothers
Before you go back too many times for more sets… submit one or two orders to pcgs of your best coins found. If and when they come back many grades Under what you expected, reset your plans, goals and expectations.
Wondercoin
Good point! And I have already adjusted how many I thought I might go back for if any at all. It seems the plans are always on the move but the goal remains the same. Aside from Lincoln cents I’m not currently looking to build a complete set. Instead hunting and grading any denomination that will build the value of my collection. I have yet to buy many graded coins at all because making them is very satisfying however, this crossover game I read a lot about is very enticing.
Those actually moving mint sets must be moving more since they are raising prices. Dave's has upped their price on the 1965, for instance, to $18.29!! This is hardly the highest price around but I have no doubt he's actually moving product. This set has a $3 silver half dollar and 41c face value in clad, cu/ ni, and copper coins.
I'm going to have to revisit the concept of the premium to face value.
In a very real way these sets are only worth the aggregate value of the coins in them. I believe in the long run that Gem sets will be worth far more and bad sets won't trade at wholesale. Any premium will tend to manifest in those coins that are more desirable. A badly tarnished half dollar that is worth $9 wholesale in chBU is worth only $3.
When someone pays $4.50 for a 1980 mint set with a face value of $4.82 it has no effect on the price or availability of the coins in it. He might just cut the set and spend it. But if they pay a premium then this premium represents the numismatic value. The same set purchased for $5 suggests at least one coin is collectible. If this coin is being set aside by collectors then the premium effectively represents the value of the coin.
To at least some extent one can retain the value of the entire set by simply keeping the coins with a premium. Of course one can also cherry pick the premium itself by selecting sets with the right coins and not those that are inferior, tarnished, or defective.
Right now these raw moderns are simply disappearing as more and more collectors are forced to buy them but as time goes by we'll see that sets are in no way created equal and they will not sell for equal amounts. Additionally to get full price for the coins sellers will be forced to remove the tarnished coins for cleaning. This will greatly further stress the supplies of mint sets since a very large percentage of some dates are tarnished.
This will probably begin unfolding faster and faster at this point caused largely by the differentiation of quality in bid for those coins with a premium. A nice chBU '69 quarter is nearly elusive right now but wait until the terms are redefined and most of the '69 mint set quarters are seen as "tarnished" and not worth bid. And this coin contributes only about 75c (50c premium) to the value of the set!!
The term that comes to mind is "fireworks".
All the premium of all the sets will concentrate in the most desirable coins, dates, and mint marks. The '80 set is being sold at over $12 by Dave's by the way. These come fairly nice and are often untarnished. It's a high mintage set and every coin in the set is high mintage. The '80-S SBA and the Philly half are likely driving the buying. The Denver half is almost always scratched and you'll need BU rolls to find a nice one. The dimes are tough in FB but the other coins are often gemmy.
I just read that. It's pretty enlightening. I still have to dip the quarters in the '69 Mint set I bought. I just haven't had the opportunity to get before and after images. I also have a '69 and a '71 that's been in a Whitman Bookshelf album since about 1973. I have all the dates from 1965 thru 1973. All need dipped.
@koynekwest said:
BTW-congratulations on being cited in that article!
I love this line and will probably have to steal it;
"Whereas most coins come nice in one or more respects but have some distracting feature that keeps them from being a desirable, highly graded coin, 1969s are almost uniformly awful in every respect."
...And now they are almost uniformly tarnished as well.
clad coins tend to show a pinkish color around the rim (where copper is exposed) after a dip. clad coins are difficult to dip/doctor/conserve because they have a different metal content than silver coins. even distilled water will cause damage in the long run with a clad. good luck though, curious how it turns out.
@koynekwest said:
Well, I'm gonna try to un-tarnish the two I have.
Well, I'm gonna try to un-tarnish the two I have.> @cladking said:
@koynekwest said:
Well, I'm gonna try to un-tarnish the two I have.
Good luck.
The odds are good if they aren't very dark. If they don't come clean after about 10 days in alcohol, they probably never will.
I am having difficulty getting decent images but I will do ahead and dip both the P and D quarters and let you know how they turn out. As they are right now they are both coated with a milky film.
@CopperWire said:
clad coins tend to show a pinkish color around the rim (where copper is exposed) after a dip. clad coins are difficult to dip/doctor/conserve because they have a different metal content than silver coins. even distilled water will cause damage in the long run with a clad. good luck though, curious how it turns out.
Yes! Water will wreck clad if it's on them too long. This is why you need to use 91% alcohol instead of 70%. There should be a bare minimum of water in the soak.
I've wrecked a lot of coins by having contaminants in it. Don't use anything unless you're sure and try it on junk first if you aren't sure. Acetone and 91% are almost foolproof.
If in 1995 you bought say a 1973 mint set for $5 because it has a nice Philly dime and a great San Francisco cent then you can get most of the $1.17 premium back selling the dollars for $1.50 each. The 17c leftover premium can be divided between the cent and dime in any way you choose. Today with the same set at $20 there is a $10 premium left over even after you sell all the valuable coins in it. Now that cent that was 7c and the the dime that was 20c, they are both about $5 cost. You have more work because finding sets is harder and more of the coins must be sold and then you have to have a far higher cost basis for the nice coins.
The premium increase will simply stifle people from seeking Gems and varieties. It's already difficult to find sets to check and now it will be expensive when you do. This will simply change the market to most demand coming from end users instead of wholesalers. It will also highlight how few of some coins there are in these sets.
I stopped by a local shop this week. It had multiple OGP mint sets from 1968 forward. I looked through about 30 sets from 1969 and 1970.
Most of the coins in these sets were of poor quality. Some had developed haze. However one 1969 set contained a very nice Philly quarter. One of the 1970 sets contained a very nice half dollar. I bought both for $15.00.
I removed the 1969 P quarter and gave it a bath to remove the haze. It has minimally marked fields. The bust of GW does have some marks. However it has very good luster. Into the Dansco it went.
The 1970 half also received a bath to remove haze. It also has minimal marks, great luster and is better quality than most 1970 D half dollars. Into the Dansco it went.
“Today with the same set at $20 there is a $10 premium left over even after you sell all the valuable coins in it”
Speaking only of Mint Sets with Ike Dollars in them - I got in today (215) assorted “Ike Dollar” mint sets dated 1973-1978 with my buy prices on all the dates ranging from $8 to $10.50. That’s just a 1 day haul. A dealer recently bid $11 on the 1973 set to become high bidder and I will likely match that price next week to stay strong and competitive. But, these typical buy prices for quantity is a far cry from CK’s theoretical $20/set.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
Speaking only of Mint Sets with Ike Dollars in them - I got in today (215) assorted “Ike Dollar” mint sets dated 1973-1978 with my buy prices on all the dates ranging from $8 to $10.50. That’s just a 1 day haul. A dealer recently bid $11 on the 1973 set to become high bidder and I will likely match that price next week to stay strong and competitive. But, these typical buy prices for quantity is a far cry from CK’s theoretical $20/set.
The exact level of price isn't so important to this concept of "premium" as the fact that the premium is soaring.
I used the retail price for two reasons; secondarily is that more and more sets are ultimately trading at retail now that the huge backlog of sets have been worked down but primarily because if you sit down and look through a dealer's stock of mint sets he's probably going to demand retail.
Right now with dealers flush with paper profits on mint set inventory he might not care so much, but if these price levels are maintained and his cost to acquire sets increases then sets sold over the counter will more and more be sold at retail prices.
Coin buyers just aren't used to the concept of retail pricing. And this especially applies to mint sets.
There are still sellers to the public at bid plus so the '73 set can be found at less than $20 but odds are good that such sets will be lower quality and most sellers, including Golden Eagle, just happen to be sold out right now.
Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature but all major changes occur in bits and increments and the soaring premiums is indicative of the coming changes unfolding now. The status quo simply can not be maintained in modern coins because there are too many buyers relative the supply. This "seemed" to be true in the '70's when sets sold for far higher prices but it was not because there was an enormous supply of sets that simply weren't available for sale. As they gradually became available over the years they dwarfed the demand. Now these sets are gone and the demand has been increasing for nearly a quarter century.
@SanctionII said:
I stopped by a local shop this week. It had multiple OGP mint sets from 1968 forward. I looked through about 30 sets from 1969 and 1970.
Most of the coins in these sets were of poor quality. Some had developed haze. However one 1969 set contained a very nice Philly quarter. One of the 1970 sets contained a very nice half dollar. I bought both for $15.00.
I removed the 1969 P quarter and gave it a bath to remove the haze. It has minimally marked fields. The bust of GW does have some marks. However it has very good luster. Into the Dansco it went.
The 1970 half also received a bath to remove haze. It also has minimal marks, great luster and is better quality than most 1970 D half dollars. Into the Dansco it went.
Raw cherry picks = hobby fun on a low budget.
$15 is very very cheap even for a lot less fun.
You can spend the rest of the coins to help defray the cost.
There have been times that you could defray virtually the entire cost even after paying full retail on mint sets. I am defining those day as "the days of raw moderns" and now your $14 net cost is marking the end of raw moderns.
Of course the two coins you kept and have returned to original condition should be worth your net cost and perhaps much more. But this numismatic premium is dependent on the numismatic market rather than the "full faith and credit of the US government".
I don't know where you would find the wherewithal to sell such small ticket items. Guess if you're a dealer this is easier and over time the bulk adds up.
When breaking sets if the coins are just so so they get spent, and most do.
There is more profit in selling popcorn especially if can afford the theatre.
@CoinscratchFever said:
I don't know where you would find the wherewithal to sell such small ticket items. Guess if you're a dealer this is easier and over time the bulk adds up.
When breaking sets if the coins are just so so they get spent, and most do.
There is more profit in selling popcorn especially if can afford the theatre.
I can't speak for Wondercoin though he is just looking for the already valuable rarities and not the "small ticket" coins I'm disposing of. I expected these coins to be a lot more valuable when the time came, though I'm making a small profit on most of it and a large profit on a little bit of it.
A lot of the coins were just spent to defray the cost of setting aside gemmy coins. I've sent out a lot of heavy packages over the years.
Despite saving only the nicer examples I'm finding very few of the "big ticket" coins in my safety deposit boxes. Now that it has become less economical to collect or save coins from mint sets I would expect the prices of the other coins to soar. In the meantime I'm continuing to sell into strength.
@metalmeister said:
None of my 65/66 25c, 50c and Ike clads are certified. Maybe the time has come
It's past time almost for the very high grade coins.
I believe the next tier down will be in demand soon. I'm saving only (most of) these right now.
I believe we'll see more and more collectors try to assemble Gem sets of moderns. Most of these coins have an adequate supply making sets very attractive but many dates are very elusive even in MS-65 so any significant demand will have a large effect on price.
I keep thinking about the '70-S sm dt cent. I like this coin a lot and consider it highly collectible but it's hard to believe it's worth $42 wholesale!! It appears in 10% of 1970 mint sets making it quite common but a nice Gem '70-D half appears in only about 2% of 1970 mint sets and it wholesales about $24. Every half dollar collector needs a '70-D but few collect memorial cents and many don't collect the small dates. This discrepancy won't last in the long run. I believe it will be reconciled by higher prices on Gem and gemmy half dollars.
@cladking I agree that the prices will continue to rise over time. That's why I don't get too upset when one of my zincs only grades to a 67. What I'm learning now is just how difficult a 67 is in copper. I have butt ugly and what I thought were beautiful 66's and only one 67 in the copper realm. However, I have been searching a lot of BU rolls and think I might have it figured out. I will be sending in 20 or 30 very soon, still waiting on the last order from 7-23...
“Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature”
Well- 15 pages and 735 posts later, we finally agree! 😆
But, all kidding aside- there is another reason the days of raw moderns are far from over. And, that is, exciting raw moderns to search through are being created daily by the US Mint. Case in point- The new Innovative Dollar series is set to run through 2032! That 11 more years. The coins are near impossible to locate in MS68 right now and scarce even in MS67 grade. I bought over $5,000 worth from the US Mint this year (so far) and found just 1 MS67 coin so far! The difficulty factor of these coins for superb gem reminds me of the Ike Dollars! A new modern dollar series (2018-2032). Soon, these will be the modern dollars and the Ikes will be the classic dollars!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
But, all kidding aside- there is another reason the days of raw moderns are far from over. And, that is, exciting raw moderns to search through are being created daily by the US Mint. Case in point- The new Innovative Dollar series is set to run through 2032! That 11 more years. The coins are near impossible to locate in MS68 right now and scarce even in MS67 grade. I bought over $5,000 worth from the US Mint this year (so far) and found just 1 MS67 coin so far! The difficulty factor of these coins for superb gem reminds me of the Ike Dollars! A new modern dollar series (2018-2032). Soon, these will be the modern dollars and the Ikes will be the classic dollars!
Wondercoin
But so many of them are ugly… Even homely looking Ike is starting to grow on me compared to some of the newer designs.
Cameonut- there is a reply I had considered to your comment involving a recent 1/2 Oz. Gold series, but out of respect to those coins it is best I don’t go there!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
“Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature”
Well- 15 pages and 735 posts later, we finally agree! 😆
But, all kidding aside- there is another reason the days of raw moderns are far from over. And, that is, exciting raw moderns to search through are being created daily by the US Mint. Case in point- The new Innovative Dollar series is set to run through 2032! That 11 more years. The coins are near impossible to locate in MS68 right now and scarce even in MS67 grade. I bought over $5,000 worth from the US Mint this year (so far) and found just 1 MS67 coin so far! The difficulty factor of these coins for superb gem reminds me of the Ike Dollars! A new modern dollar series (2018-2032). Soon, these will be the modern dollars and the Ikes will be the classic dollars!
Wondercoin
I thought that I was the only one that really liked the Innovation dollar series. Much better then the presidential series. The New Jersey light bulb and the Massachusetts phone are my favorites so far.
@wondercoin said:
“Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature”
Well- 15 pages and 735 posts later, we finally agree! 😆
But, all kidding aside- there is another reason the days of raw moderns are far from over. And, that is, exciting raw moderns to search through are being created daily by the US Mint. Case in point- The new Innovative Dollar series is set to run through 2032! That 11 more years. The coins are near impossible to locate in MS68 right now and scarce even in MS67 grade. I bought over $5,000 worth from the US Mint this year (so far) and found just 1 MS67 coin so far! The difficulty factor of these coins for superb gem reminds me of the Ike Dollars! A new modern dollar series (2018-2032). Soon, these will be the modern dollars and the Ikes will be the classic dollars!
Du'h. I shouldda realized long back that the problem here is principally one of semantics and avoided the concept of "premiums" altogether. I should have realized that if we are in much disagreement about circulating moderns or their grading then we are talking about somewhat different things.
There are lots and lots of "raw" moderns and if you buy mint sets or BU rolls you'll run into plenty of them along with varieties and Gems because many of these sets and rolls have never been cherry picked and are still in pristine condition. I'd guess that on average about half of the mint sets survive and of these about half are not cherry picked. But you'll find even more cherries because even they will get sold back into the market sometimes.
What I've been trying to convey is that "raw moderns" have become much too expensive for the average collector to search. Of course, it's still possible to put together nice collections which will include some Gems and varieties by searching sets but this has become more expensive. The average collector can not buy 500 nice 1970 mint sets to find a nice PL half or even 10 to find a sm dt cent because the premiums are so high they must be recouped. A collector simply lacks the facilities to dispose of the cast offs and he'll still lose most of the premiums.
What I've been trying to convey is that "raw moderns" have become much too expensive for the average collector to search.
BU roll prices for BU quarters have barely moved but there are no BU rolls to search except for mint set rolls and these should be considered already searched.
It looks like silver to me.
Yes, it is 40% silver overall, but the outer layers that show on the obverse and reverse are actually 80% silver (bonded to a core that is 20% silver).
Comments
How do you do it?
Dip in ammonia for a second or two, rinse with water.
I don’t have any straight ammonia laying around will Windex work?
CSF- just a suggestion…
Before you go back too many times for more sets… submit one or two orders to pcgs of your best coins found. If and when they come back many grades Under what you expected, reset your plans, goals and expectations.
Wondercoin
Yeah that's the situation. Only people with a shi*load of money and time can play. It's no longer for the common man. But PCGS in its efforts to be the last word in grading (thank you David Hall for all you have given us) hasn't loosened the rules surrounding Bulk Submissions to include anyone who isnt a real time coin dealer.
However, the economics of grading today mean that many grade-able coins sit somewhere in a vault, or improperly stored in an attic or a damp basement, awaiting the inevitable degradation of whatever they are stored in (see my past post for evidence and mea culpa) Meanwhile new issues get bid into the stratosphere. PCGS should innovate by allowing bulk grading of mint coin sets. They have rules which prevent that so you end up cutting up the set and going only for the popular coin.
Specifically,
https://www.pcgs.com/services/bulksubmissions
it's a lottery. If you think you have a might 65 or higher, and the difference between a 64 and a 65 is big, like $400, but a 64 grade barely covers the postage, you are playing a risky game. You will most likely be shot down, and then what is that coin worth after that, minus the cost of grading. In this scenario, which we are all well aquaintented, a lower than expected graded coin in a PGCS holder, value is most likely less than your investment in the grading lottery. (The breakeven is the cost of submission, plus the price you paid to get your hands on the coin.in the first place) You can find some high grade coins (but low demand) for under $30 , which is the cost of a PCGS grading ordeal. In that case its like buying the coin for free, though you cant sell it for a higher price, unless the entire coin market improves, and not just key dates and rarities.
Sorry if I appear cynical, but I have had PCGS memberships forever, and I'm a good customer and fan of PCGS.
I don't know.
Good point! And I have already adjusted how many I thought I might go back for if any at all. It seems the plans are always on the move but the goal remains the same. Aside from Lincoln cents I’m not currently looking to build a complete set. Instead hunting and grading any denomination that will build the value of my collection. I have yet to buy many graded coins at all because making them is very satisfying however, this crossover game I read a lot about is very enticing.
I’ll get back with the results, it does a hell of a job on glass
I'll try it. Thanks.
great collections is auctioning numerous ms67-68 clad quarters coming up. i guess we will see if the days of raw moderns is over?
I must agree as a forum member just purchased the following coin!
Those actually moving mint sets must be moving more since they are raising prices. Dave's has upped their price on the 1965, for instance, to $18.29!! This is hardly the highest price around but I have no doubt he's actually moving product. This set has a $3 silver half dollar and 41c face value in clad, cu/ ni, and copper coins.
I'm going to have to revisit the concept of the premium to face value.
In a very real way these sets are only worth the aggregate value of the coins in them. I believe in the long run that Gem sets will be worth far more and bad sets won't trade at wholesale. Any premium will tend to manifest in those coins that are more desirable. A badly tarnished half dollar that is worth $9 wholesale in chBU is worth only $3.
When someone pays $4.50 for a 1980 mint set with a face value of $4.82 it has no effect on the price or availability of the coins in it. He might just cut the set and spend it. But if they pay a premium then this premium represents the numismatic value. The same set purchased for $5 suggests at least one coin is collectible. If this coin is being set aside by collectors then the premium effectively represents the value of the coin.
To at least some extent one can retain the value of the entire set by simply keeping the coins with a premium. Of course one can also cherry pick the premium itself by selecting sets with the right coins and not those that are inferior, tarnished, or defective.
Right now these raw moderns are simply disappearing as more and more collectors are forced to buy them but as time goes by we'll see that sets are in no way created equal and they will not sell for equal amounts. Additionally to get full price for the coins sellers will be forced to remove the tarnished coins for cleaning. This will greatly further stress the supplies of mint sets since a very large percentage of some dates are tarnished.
This will probably begin unfolding faster and faster at this point caused largely by the differentiation of quality in bid for those coins with a premium. A nice chBU '69 quarter is nearly elusive right now but wait until the terms are redefined and most of the '69 mint set quarters are seen as "tarnished" and not worth bid. And this coin contributes only about 75c (50c premium) to the value of the set!!
The term that comes to mind is "fireworks".
All the premium of all the sets will concentrate in the most desirable coins, dates, and mint marks. The '80 set is being sold at over $12 by Dave's by the way. These come fairly nice and are often untarnished. It's a high mintage set and every coin in the set is high mintage. The '80-S SBA and the Philly half are likely driving the buying. The Denver half is almost always scratched and you'll need BU rolls to find a nice one. The dimes are tough in FB but the other coins are often gemmy.
Believe it or not I just happened to stumble on this article;
https://coinweek.com/modern-coins/us-coins-the-1969-quarter-the-key-date-you-didnt-know-about/
It's about the '69 clad quarter and mentions @Wondercoin" and me!!
I just read that. It's pretty enlightening. I still have to dip the quarters in the '69 Mint set I bought. I just haven't had the opportunity to get before and after images. I also have a '69 and a '71 that's been in a Whitman Bookshelf album since about 1973. I have all the dates from 1965 thru 1973. All need dipped.
BTW-congratulations on being cited in that article!
I love this line and will probably have to steal it;
"Whereas most coins come nice in one or more respects but have some distracting feature that keeps them from being a desirable, highly graded coin, 1969s are almost uniformly awful in every respect."
...And now they are almost uniformly tarnished as well.
Well, I'm gonna try to un-tarnish the two I have.
Good luck.
The odds are good if they aren't very dark. If they don't come clean after about 10 days in alcohol, they probably never will.
CladKing. Do you think folks will appreciate our clad coinage more if we just start selling them as silver coins? 😂 Wondercoin
My apologies....this is the best I can do with this coin. Ya'll are just going to have to suffer from not knowing how colorful this coin is.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
That doesn't look silver does it?
CK: Only 40%.
Wondercoin
clad coins tend to show a pinkish color around the rim (where copper is exposed) after a dip. clad coins are difficult to dip/doctor/conserve because they have a different metal content than silver coins. even distilled water will cause damage in the long run with a clad. good luck though, curious how it turns out.
Well, I'm gonna try to un-tarnish the two I have.> @cladking said:
I am having difficulty getting decent images but I will do ahead and dip both the P and D quarters and let you know how they turn out. As they are right now they are both coated with a milky film.
Yes! Water will wreck clad if it's on them too long. This is why you need to use 91% alcohol instead of 70%. There should be a bare minimum of water in the soak.
I've wrecked a lot of coins by having contaminants in it. Don't use anything unless you're sure and try it on junk first if you aren't sure. Acetone and 91% are almost foolproof.
OK, let me try again.
If in 1995 you bought say a 1973 mint set for $5 because it has a nice Philly dime and a great San Francisco cent then you can get most of the $1.17 premium back selling the dollars for $1.50 each. The 17c leftover premium can be divided between the cent and dime in any way you choose. Today with the same set at $20 there is a $10 premium left over even after you sell all the valuable coins in it. Now that cent that was 7c and the the dime that was 20c, they are both about $5 cost. You have more work because finding sets is harder and more of the coins must be sold and then you have to have a far higher cost basis for the nice coins.
The premium increase will simply stifle people from seeking Gems and varieties. It's already difficult to find sets to check and now it will be expensive when you do. This will simply change the market to most demand coming from end users instead of wholesalers. It will also highlight how few of some coins there are in these sets.
I stopped by a local shop this week. It had multiple OGP mint sets from 1968 forward. I looked through about 30 sets from 1969 and 1970.
Most of the coins in these sets were of poor quality. Some had developed haze. However one 1969 set contained a very nice Philly quarter. One of the 1970 sets contained a very nice half dollar. I bought both for $15.00.
I removed the 1969 P quarter and gave it a bath to remove the haze. It has minimally marked fields. The bust of GW does have some marks. However it has very good luster. Into the Dansco it went.
The 1970 half also received a bath to remove haze. It also has minimal marks, great luster and is better quality than most 1970 D half dollars. Into the Dansco it went.
Raw cherry picks = hobby fun on a low budget.
Yeah, because we dealers don't have any access to variety guides, the cherrypicker's guide or the internet.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
“Today with the same set at $20 there is a $10 premium left over even after you sell all the valuable coins in it”
Speaking only of Mint Sets with Ike Dollars in them - I got in today (215) assorted “Ike Dollar” mint sets dated 1973-1978 with my buy prices on all the dates ranging from $8 to $10.50. That’s just a 1 day haul. A dealer recently bid $11 on the 1973 set to become high bidder and I will likely match that price next week to stay strong and competitive. But, these typical buy prices for quantity is a far cry from CK’s theoretical $20/set.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
“bought both for $15.00.”
Sanction II- that’s crazy! My buy price is close to $20 on that pair of sets. What a great price. That dealer must love you! Wondercoin.
Mitch.
I am a long time customer of this shop and have a good relationship with the owner.
The exact level of price isn't so important to this concept of "premium" as the fact that the premium is soaring.
I used the retail price for two reasons; secondarily is that more and more sets are ultimately trading at retail now that the huge backlog of sets have been worked down but primarily because if you sit down and look through a dealer's stock of mint sets he's probably going to demand retail.
Right now with dealers flush with paper profits on mint set inventory he might not care so much, but if these price levels are maintained and his cost to acquire sets increases then sets sold over the counter will more and more be sold at retail prices.
Coin buyers just aren't used to the concept of retail pricing. And this especially applies to mint sets.
There are still sellers to the public at bid plus so the '73 set can be found at less than $20 but odds are good that such sets will be lower quality and most sellers, including Golden Eagle, just happen to be sold out right now.
Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature but all major changes occur in bits and increments and the soaring premiums is indicative of the coming changes unfolding now. The status quo simply can not be maintained in modern coins because there are too many buyers relative the supply. This "seemed" to be true in the '70's when sets sold for far higher prices but it was not because there was an enormous supply of sets that simply weren't available for sale. As they gradually became available over the years they dwarfed the demand. Now these sets are gone and the demand has been increasing for nearly a quarter century.
$15 is very very cheap even for a lot less fun.
You can spend the rest of the coins to help defray the cost.
There have been times that you could defray virtually the entire cost even after paying full retail on mint sets. I am defining those day as "the days of raw moderns" and now your $14 net cost is marking the end of raw moderns.
Of course the two coins you kept and have returned to original condition should be worth your net cost and perhaps much more. But this numismatic premium is dependent on the numismatic market rather than the "full faith and credit of the US government".
I don't know where you would find the wherewithal to sell such small ticket items. Guess if you're a dealer this is easier and over time the bulk adds up.
When breaking sets if the coins are just so so they get spent, and most do.
There is more profit in selling popcorn especially if can afford the theatre.
None of my 65/66 25c, 50c and Ike clads are certified. Maybe the time has come
100% Positive BST transactions
I can't speak for Wondercoin though he is just looking for the already valuable rarities and not the "small ticket" coins I'm disposing of. I expected these coins to be a lot more valuable when the time came, though I'm making a small profit on most of it and a large profit on a little bit of it.
A lot of the coins were just spent to defray the cost of setting aside gemmy coins. I've sent out a lot of heavy packages over the years.
Despite saving only the nicer examples I'm finding very few of the "big ticket" coins in my safety deposit boxes. Now that it has become less economical to collect or save coins from mint sets I would expect the prices of the other coins to soar. In the meantime I'm continuing to sell into strength.
It's past time almost for the very high grade coins.
I believe the next tier down will be in demand soon. I'm saving only (most of) these right now.
I believe we'll see more and more collectors try to assemble Gem sets of moderns. Most of these coins have an adequate supply making sets very attractive but many dates are very elusive even in MS-65 so any significant demand will have a large effect on price.
I keep thinking about the '70-S sm dt cent. I like this coin a lot and consider it highly collectible but it's hard to believe it's worth $42 wholesale!! It appears in 10% of 1970 mint sets making it quite common but a nice Gem '70-D half appears in only about 2% of 1970 mint sets and it wholesales about $24. Every half dollar collector needs a '70-D but few collect memorial cents and many don't collect the small dates. This discrepancy won't last in the long run. I believe it will be reconciled by higher prices on Gem and gemmy half dollars.
@cladking I agree that the prices will continue to rise over time. That's why I don't get too upset when one of my zincs only grades to a 67. What I'm learning now is just how difficult a 67 is in copper. I have butt ugly and what I thought were beautiful 66's and only one 67 in the copper realm. However, I have been searching a lot of BU rolls and think I might have it figured out. I will be sending in 20 or 30 very soon, still waiting on the last order from 7-23...
“Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature”
Well- 15 pages and 735 posts later, we finally agree! 😆
But, all kidding aside- there is another reason the days of raw moderns are far from over. And, that is, exciting raw moderns to search through are being created daily by the US Mint. Case in point- The new Innovative Dollar series is set to run through 2032! That 11 more years. The coins are near impossible to locate in MS68 right now and scarce even in MS67 grade. I bought over $5,000 worth from the US Mint this year (so far) and found just 1 MS67 coin so far! The difficulty factor of these coins for superb gem reminds me of the Ike Dollars! A new modern dollar series (2018-2032). Soon, these will be the modern dollars and the Ikes will be the classic dollars!
Wondercoin
This made me laugh.
But so many of them are ugly… Even homely looking Ike is starting to grow on me compared to some of the newer designs.
Cameonut- there is a reply I had considered to your comment involving a recent 1/2 Oz. Gold series, but out of respect to those coins it is best I don’t go there!
Wondercoin
I thought that I was the only one that really liked the Innovation dollar series. Much better then the presidential series. The New Jersey light bulb and the Massachusetts phone are my favorites so far.
Du'h. I shouldda realized long back that the problem here is principally one of semantics and avoided the concept of "premiums" altogether. I should have realized that if we are in much disagreement about circulating moderns or their grading then we are talking about somewhat different things.
There are lots and lots of "raw" moderns and if you buy mint sets or BU rolls you'll run into plenty of them along with varieties and Gems because many of these sets and rolls have never been cherry picked and are still in pristine condition. I'd guess that on average about half of the mint sets survive and of these about half are not cherry picked. But you'll find even more cherries because even they will get sold back into the market sometimes.
What I've been trying to convey is that "raw moderns" have become much too expensive for the average collector to search. Of course, it's still possible to put together nice collections which will include some Gems and varieties by searching sets but this has become more expensive. The average collector can not buy 500 nice 1970 mint sets to find a nice PL half or even 10 to find a sm dt cent because the premiums are so high they must be recouped. A collector simply lacks the facilities to dispose of the cast offs and he'll still lose most of the premiums.
I will amend the thread title appropriately.
BU roll prices for BU quarters have barely moved but there are no BU rolls to search except for mint set rolls and these should be considered already searched.
I am putting together some coins to submit for grading by our host.
Just out of curiosity two MS 1969 P quarters will be included in the submission. One is toned, one is not. Both have nice luster and eye appeal.
Will post the grades and True View photos of both.
Can I guess the grades of the 2 quarters now … MS64 and MS65. Let’s see how my guesses compare to actual grades. Good luck!
Wondercoin
Thanks Mitch.
I am also going to include in the submission nine MS Clad Ikes and three MS 1963 D cents.
It looks like silver to me.
Yes, it is 40% silver overall, but the outer layers that show on the obverse and reverse are actually 80% silver (bonded to a core that is 20% silver).
“Thanks Mitch.
I am also going to include in the submission nine MS Clad Ikes and three MS 1963 D cents.”
Now you’re talking! Wondercoin