It generally takes hundreds to thousands of mint sets to find that pop top mega rarity. And, that’s because many of these clad coins are as scarce, if not scarcer, than many classic coins from 100 years prior. Time will determine which clad coins become the “modern classics”. My daughter, Lauren, just finished screening the (375) 1996 mint sets I bought last month. She found around 5 or 6 coins out of 4,125 coins in those sets with any serious potential. From those half dozen coins perhaps 2 or 3 might work out for her (if any at all). That puts the odds of finding a valuable 1996 coin at well over 1,250x to 2,000X to 1 in the hunt. And, this was an easier date mint set! She has on tap about 100 of the 1989 Mint sets tonight. Maybe 50-50 at best she finds one nice coin out of the 1,000 total coins she will look at after dinner tonight! Fingers crossed.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Here is my 1969 25c, graded MS-65. It was the most "pretty" out of all the ugly ones I looked at over a period of time. The Denver 1969's are so much better, have a MS-67 example there.
@wondercoin said:
It generally takes hundreds to thousands of mint sets to find that pop top mega rarity. And, that’s because many of these clad coins are as scarce, if not scarcer, than many classic coins from 100 years prior. Time will determine which clad coins become the “modern classics”. My daughter, Lauren, just finished screening the (375) 1996 mint sets I bought last month. She found around 5 or 6 coins out of 4,125 coins in those sets with any serious potential. From those half dozen coins perhaps 2 or 3 might work out for her (if any at all). That puts the odds of finding a valuable 1996 coin at well over 1,250x to 2,000X to 1 in the hunt. And, this was an easier date mint set! She has on tap about 100 of the 1989 Mint sets tonight. Maybe 50-50 at best she finds one nice coin out of the 1,000 total coins she will look at after dinner tonight! Fingers crossed.
I always figure that 2% of mint set coins are true Gems. It takes about 500 mint sets to get a super Gem and about 400 to find a coin made by new dies. New die Gems are very tough.
Inexperienced hunters should keep in mind though that some coins run very very nice. Coins like '89-D cents are almost always Gem and superb Gems are common. Even PL superb Gems appear in about 1% of sets. A few of these PL Gems actually look a lot like proofs; not '89 proofs but more like 1969 proofs.
I've looked at lots and lots of BU rolls and bags and can state categorically that for almost every date and denomination nice attractive well struck Gems are scarce. Clean coins aren't that hard in rolls and can be easier than mint sets but there are few well made coins in rolls. Finding Gems in mint sets is like shooting fish in a barrel. The '69 quarter, for instance, that is very scarce in original rolls wasn't that hard to find without marks in circulation. The problem was they were all badly centered mushy strikes from worn dies. The coins were not at all attractive. Mint set coins are well struck from good dies but have extensive retained planchet marking and lots of scratches.
Every modern is different. Some are really tough even in nice attractive MS-64. Some only come in mint sets and some don't come in mint sets at all. Some BU rolls are common but most are pretty hard to find and unattractive when you do find them.
I personally find the quarters most interesting but the market values the big dollars, then kennedys, cents, small dollars, nickels and the dimes and quarters last. But none of them can be searched on a shoe string any longer unless you can sell the castoffs at wholesale. Even then there are so many coins in the sets that won't bring chBU prices that it will be tougher to recoup the premiums unless you can find a few big dollar coins as well.
This is just a whole new ballgame now for the average collector. I always suggested a beginner should cherry pick sets but now it's probably too late and he'd be better advised to seek the out of the money PCGS coins and some of the other 3rd party graders' products. It is simply cost prohibitive to cherry sets unless you're a dealer or have access to dealers' stocks. And this is the point of the thread. With more people being forced to buy singles this will create a demand for BU rolls at wholesale. Many of these coins simply haven't survived more than half a century of "consumerism". So far most of the effect is on mint set prices but we're still only a couple months into this and it requires time to work off the backlog in stock and on eBay.
So we'll just have to see how this plays out over the near term. No doubt, there will be some surprises for everyone. Change has a way of creating unforeseeable consequences.
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
Here is my 1969 25c, graded MS-65. It was the most "pretty" out of all the ugly ones I looked at over a period of time. The Denver 1969's are so much better, have a MS-67 example there.
Nice coin.
You can see a little bit of the retained planchet marking even on Gems quite often. This one has some at about 4 O'clock.
@wondercoin said:
It generally takes hundreds to thousands of mint sets to find that pop top mega rarity. And, that’s because many of these clad coins are as scarce, if not scarcer, than many classic coins from 100 years prior. Time will determine which clad coins become the “modern classics”.
In what sense are clad coins as scarce or scarcer than US coinage 100 years prior?
@wondercoin said:
“Perhaps saying the "day of raw moderns is over" is a bit premature”
Well- 15 pages and 735 posts later, we finally agree! 😆
But, all kidding aside- there is another reason the days of raw moderns are far from over. And, that is, exciting raw moderns to search through are being created daily by the US Mint. Case in point- The new Innovative Dollar series is set to run through 2032! That 11 more years. The coins are near impossible to locate in MS68 right now and scarce even in MS67 grade. I bought over $5,000 worth from the US Mint this year (so far) and found just 1 MS67 coin so far! The difficulty factor of these coins for superb gem reminds me of the Ike Dollars! A new modern dollar series (2018-2032). Soon, these will be the modern dollars and the Ikes will be the classic dollars!
Wondercoin
I thought that I was the only one that really liked the Innovation dollar series. Much better then the presidential series. The New Jersey light bulb and the Massachusetts phone are my favorites so far.
I like the Innobucks, too. I'm actively collecting the reverse proofs.
CK: I thought I had a real shot at changing the current pop 1 MS68 on this non Mint Set year Kennedy into a pop 2. But, ownership once again “added a point” and I had to settle with an MS67 from our hosts. Nonetheless, it’s a highlight of my MS Kennedy set slowly closing in on Mr. Hansen’s #1 Registry set. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
CK: I thought I had a real shot at changing the current pop 1 MS68 on this non Mint Set year Kennedy into a pop 2. But, ownership once again “added a point” and I had to settle with an MS67 from our hosts. Nonetheless, it’s a highlight of my MS Kennedy set slowly closing in on Mr. Hansen’s #1 Registry set. Wondercoin
Nice coin!!
This coin is tough with so clean a shield. Die condition is excellent as well though the strike is a little weak.
I've never seen a better '83-P in hand but I've seen one or two better strikes.
Some of these varieties are so minor I don't even check for them but some are really spectacular. I also like the '88-P rotated reverse half and the '81-P type "d" reverse quarter.
You'll also see some great PL's and coins with unusual characteristics like smooth fields. Some of these are my favorites. For instance, about 1 1984 cent in 200 will have nice attractive surfaces. Even most of the '81-P coins come with nice surfaces. Try finding an '80-P half without shallow scrapes!!! When you do it will usually be one of the least attractive coins in the bunch! Mint sets are never created equal.
@wondercoin said:
CK. Do you like my 1983-P better or 1983-D? Both MS67 currently. Wondercoin.
I believe based on the photos and experience the '83-D is technically higher grade by almost a whole grade and I prefer untoned coins. But the Philly is in my opinion a tougher coin and more desirable even with the toning.
The Denver is no slouch since these are tough without scratches and gouges and the shield is even cleaner than the Philly.
Well I purchased another $300 worth on Friday. All 1965 - 1981. I'm going through slowly and looking closely at ones I think are worth sending in. I keep comparing them to what I have graded and deciding what to send in as an improvement for my sets.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
@privatecoin said:
Well I purchased another $300 worth on Friday. All 1965 - 1981. I'm going through slowly and looking closely at ones I think are worth sending in. I keep comparing them to what I have graded and deciding what to send in as an improvement for my sets.
I'm glad you have some knowledge here because it would be easy to get too optimistic and send in a lot of coins that aren't worth the grading fee (at the current time). I personally believe almost all the Gems are greatly underrated. Very few are common and are mostly cents and dimes when they are. Even the most common Gems in the larger denominations appear in fewer than 10% of sets. Most are closer to 2% and some are really quite scarce.
Most people have been ignoring these about forever and searched sets tend to be destroyed so there are lots of Gems still in the available sets. Even some of the better varieties are no less frequently encountered than they ever were.
At this time even some of the tougher Gems are worth no more than any other chBU. The primary driver of grading is the registry sets so after a few dozen are graded the price tends to settle no matter how tough the coin.
MS-64 and MS-65 will probably always be the "sweet spot" for moderns where prices are low enough for the average collector and the coins elusive enough. Quality at this level is quite good so collections are very attractive. Nice attractive MS-63's of coins like the '76 type I Ike, the '69 quarter, and the '83-P/D half dollars might end up being included in this "sweet spot" since higher grades are so tough.
While chBU and MS-60 coins can make nice sets as well the problem is many moderns in these lower grades are just ugly and collectors generally avoid ugly coins. Even MS-63's can be ugly since they can be very poorly made.
By the by it seems mint set prices are consolidating at these much higher levels but many sellers are out of stock on various dates. I believe the apparent stability won't last for this reason. It's just strange seeing SMS's advertised at near $25 after so many years under $4 bid. 1980 sets are nearly as high as the '81. And the '87 with the mint set only halves is one of the least expensive sets! This market is topsy turvy. There are buyers paying 50c each for some of the envelopes.
@privatecoin said:
Think it's safe to keep the sets together that are not hazing and not worth grading, or best to cut and roll them?
I've been cutting everything. The late dates aren't so important.
It just breaks my heart since one of my collections was "finest mint sets". Some of these sets were eerily nice and obviously assembled on purpose. I had a 1969 Denver packet with three PL coins and and all Gems including one that was from a brand new die. The odds of these coming together through mere chance are astronomical. The Philly set in the same package was a stunner but it could have occurred by chance. In fact most dates before 1980 can be found in "impossible" condition. I've never seen one after 1980 and would like to believe it was because of a retirement but they did start using more automation in mint set assembly, I believe.
But every time I pull sets out of my safety deposit boxes for sale I'm finding large percentages of the coins are tarnished. They really need to be stabilized and stored properly or they will be lost. Nearly 15% of the coins can't be cleaned, or at least, I don't know how. If you intend to just hold sets a few years for resale or speculation then cleaning isn't as important but the more tarnished they get the less the chance that acetone will help. Collectors are well advised to cut them up, IMO.
“Well I purchased another $300 worth on Friday. All 1965 - 1981. I'm going through slowly and looking closely at ones I think are worth sending in. I keep comparing them to what I have graded and deciding what to send in as an improvement for my sets.”
Keep up the fine work Privatecoin.
Just this past week, I spent another few hundred dollars buying up some PCGS coins in assorted grades just to give them to my daughter to remind her what she needs to beat in quality for her bulk modern submissions. She is a star screener already, but it never hurts to improve your “working library” of coins. A picture is worth a 1,000 words. If I want to produce a scarce MS67+ Kennedy 50C of a certain date, let’s make sure she has an old Green label nice quality MS67 coin sitting on the table right next to her with a goal to find me a better quality specimen! And this “library of coins” might even resell for a profit when Lauren is finished with them!
Wondercoin
Edited to add- another (former) pop 1/0 MS67+ coin, my “team” just made into a pop 2/0 coin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Once you get an eye for that luster there's no mistaken it. I liken it to shark tooth hunting on the beach. The prehistoric ones are typically small black triangles. And unless you know what your looking for you'll never find it.
After completing the 1932-1964 Washington set nearly 20 years ago, I set a goal of finishing the 1965-1998 set in MS66 or better. It was never a high priority, but after seeing the prices some dates have sold for recently, I think it may be time to resume working on it. I bought this 1969 in MS66 earlier this year. It has nice luster, and a few light marks, but it's still far better than the vast majority of 69's. That's followed by a raw 1971 that I bought in the mid-1990's from a dealer's stock of coins that had been cut out of mint sets. I'm going to include it in my next submission to PCGS, hoping for a MS66. It has a couple small marks on the base of Washington's neck, and a couple other minor marks on the obverse. The reverse is nearly perfect. The luster is decent, but I wish it had more brilliance.
A “bump” (16) days later because I am almost ready to post (probably next week) the results of my daughter Lauren screening approximately the better part of 15,000 - 20,000 reasonably fresh “moderns” (a fair number of which in US mint sealed shipping boxes that never saw the light of day before she opened them) over the past roughly two months.
And, before reporting my results- there were quite a few board members on this thread that were sending in raw moderns to our host in search of pop top grades. Any luck from anyone?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I’ve been super busy of late relocating my business while struggling to keep up with its growth. So my hunt mostly has been on hold but not for much longer. I’m anxious to see how she did. Of those numbers I’m expecting to see some 67’s and better. Something inspiring for me at just the right time.
@privatecoin said:
Think it's safe to keep the sets together that are not hazing and not worth grading, or best to cut and roll them?
I've been cutting everything. The late dates aren't so important.
It just breaks my heart since one of my collections was "finest mint sets". Some of these sets were eerily nice and obviously assembled on purpose. I had a 1969 Denver packet with three PL coins and and all Gems including one that was from a brand new die. The odds of these coming together through mere chance are astronomical. The Philly set in the same package was a stunner but it could have occurred by chance. In fact most dates before 1980 can be found in "impossible" condition. I've never seen one after 1980 and would like to believe it was because of a retirement but they did start using more automation in mint set assembly, I believe.
But every time I pull sets out of my safety deposit boxes for sale I'm finding large percentages of the coins are tarnished. They really need to be stabilized and stored properly or they will be lost. Nearly 15% of the coins can't be cleaned, or at least, I don't know how. If you intend to just hold sets a few years for resale or speculation then cleaning isn't as important but the more tarnished they get the less the chance that acetone will help. Collectors are well advised to cut them up, IMO.
Sorry to hear about the attrition. Storage conditions can affect even the most expensive of coins, like 1804 dollars, and leads to fewer pristine survivors.
If any are still pristine, perhaps it's time to cut them up, send to our hosts for TrueViews and put on the market?
I worked for a dealer in my area who buys quantities of proof & mint sets off Coinnet, much of it from repeat sellers. This dealer paid me to go through the mint setss and select the singles to bulk submit to PCGS. We would leave the individual coins still housed in the mint set plastic and let PCGS remove the coins.
My dealer friend scored some winners was able to place them with person's building registry sets. I got burned out looking through a couple thousand mint sets in the process. (I had been going through mint sets on my own for over two decades.)
Cuprinkor: Just curious, if you feel like sharing…
Your friend/dealer you did all this work for - did he or she have a compensation arrangement that greatly rewarded you for your finds, especially your big finds, from the hunt? I personally find that through offering a very meaningful % of the value of the finds as “bonus” compensation to the “hunter” (20%-33% for example in many cases depending upon the type of coin involved), the “burn out” is mostly avoided. I prefer my “hunters” to have “skin in the game” for the hunt! And, while they can, from time to time as I do, enjoy the “thrill of victory”, I also want them to “feel the agony of defeat” along with me (most of the time) because this is tough work and not easy to make a buck at it. That said, there is no better feeling as when you know / believe you grade your series’ of choice better than the pros at the grading services. And, to get there takes screening thousands upon thousands upon thousands of sets of coins. One might as well perfect their skills while someone else is paying for the learning curve.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
I also want them to “feel the agony of defeat” along with me (most of the time) because this is tough work and not easy to make a buck at it.
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it and it would cease to be profitable.
Wondercoin,
All of this occurred in 2019 and early 2020 (just before Covid hit). I was paid by the hour. My dealer friend had a bulk deal pricing arrangement with PCGS. He could also send in proof sets where PCGS would remove and grade all the coins. I never cared for 1968-on proof sets (because don't they all come nice?). And because you have to get a PR70 essentially to make any money. As a result I was concerned if this arrangement would actually be worth his time & money since the large majority of coins being submitted were from the proof sets.
He did get a 1970-D Kennedy back in MS67 from one of the submissions and actually sold it on eBay early this year for $5000.
Wondercoin,
After many years searching mint sets and original BU rolls,
I definitely have my opinion of what is a gem modern coin, be it a 1965-98 clad quarter, Lincoln Memorial Cent or C-N Ike Dollar
I have to ask, "What does it take to make a PCGS MS67RD Lincoln Cent from 1960-67?"
“He did get a 1970-D Kennedy back in MS67 from one of the submissions and actually sold it on eBay early this year for $5000.”
Great story! Did you find this 70-D coin for him yourself? I seem to recall that coin on eBay, but Coinfacts is not reporting an eBay sale as far as I can tell. If memory serves me right, I made (1) MS67 Kennedy 70-D in (37) years of aggressively pursuing that date and denomination. So, that was good fortune for your friend to slab one in a year or less of hunting for it.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wondercoin,
After many years searching mint sets and original BU rolls,
I definitely have my opinion of what is a gem modern coin, be it a 1965-98 clad quarter, Lincoln Memorial Cent or C-N Ike Dollar. I have to ask, "What does it take to make a PCGS MS67RD Lincoln Cent from 1960-67?". Anyone care to answer?
Well, of course, the easy answer is submitting an MS68+RD coin. 😂
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Here are three 67's from CoinFacts. Does strike and luster really make up this much ground against hits?
I feel like If I sent any one of these in it would come back MS64.
Coinscratchfever- If there ever was an underrated date in the MS Kennedy series, look no further than the 2000(d)! I can’t even begin to tell you how many man hours I personally spent (in the end) successfully getting a PCGS-MS67+ grade on this date for my collection. Not too surprisingly, ten or 15 years later, the coin I graded still remains pop 1/0! PCGS might be a touch forgiving on these D mint year 2000 MS67s just as they are with classic coins at times on key date series coins. PCGS gets to see plenty of MS67 P coins from 2000 as well as even MS68 quality P coins. When a half way decent D coin comes along every now and then a few get rewarded with the MS67 grade.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wondercoin,
I did find the coin. That's what I was hired for- to go through his mint sets and 1968-71 proof sets and recommend which coins to submit.
I was able to select individual circulation strike issues and cut them from mint set, leaving that coin housed in its own cellophane. I selected which proof sets should be sent and PCGS did the rest, removing those coins and grading them.
I made the second PCGS MS67 1970-D JFK back in 2000 and it brought $825 in a Teletrade auction back then.
Cuprinkor. The vast majority of the coins in my clad quarter set are “homemade”, but I have bought a slabbed coin here and there over the years when I was bored or the price seemed very reasonable (or both). But, the biggest problem is that only a fraction of the coins are truviewed at the moment so you can’t see most of the coins anyway. But, I may solve that problem very soon as I haven’t resubmitted nearly all of the set in years, but since I will be “down the street” from PCGS for most of the remaining days of this year (in CA), I will probably let PCGS see a bunch of the coins. The set should likely be ready for viewing in about 90-120 including many more pics of coins in the set.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
Cuprinkor. The vast majority of the coins in my clad quarter set are “homemade”, but I have bought a slabbed coin here and there over the years when I was bored or the price seemed very reasonable (or both). But, the biggest problem is that only a fraction of the coins are truviewed at the moment so you can’t see most of the coins anyway. But, I may solve that problem very soon as I haven’t resubmitted nearly all of the set in years, but since I will be “down the street” from PCGS for most of the remaining days of this year (in CA), I will probably let PCGS see a bunch of the coins. The set should likely be ready for viewing in about 90-120 including many more pics of coins in the set.
Wondercoin
Great news @wondercoin. It would be great to get your coins TrueViewed to share.
To move modern coins to the next level, it would be great to get a custom insert as well. Many classic coin collectors have them, like Simpson and Pogue.
For moderns, the only collection I know of with a custom insert is @DLHansen. It would be great to get some more to showcase moderns getting more popular. Given that you have the No-S Ike, you could use the Ike Bi-Centennial Bell & Moon for your logo
@djm said:
So, This is the reason I can no longer buy Mint Sets for under face value!
I'm seeing a little weakening in price but with the run-up so sudden this is to be expected. We've been working off a huge overhang for a very long time and there's nothing like a steep and sudden increase to bring sets out of the woodwork. I had been expecting (hoping) this would be pretty quick. There's still a lot of missing dates in inventory but sellers aren't moving enough of these sets that the gaps have much effect on sales. And, they probably figure that if they're out of '71 sets then customers will buy other dates.
I'd estimate aggregate demand at about 100 sets of each date per day with nearly half of these going at retail. It's difficult to predict how long supplies will last at these prices because it's impossible to predict the behavior of sellers. There are probably fewer tired longs than anyone imagines and most sellers have only several dozen sets to pack up to ship. But, there are a lot of sellers and how they react to price increases is anyone's guess.
I'm still not seeing any pressure on BU rolls but I think this will naturally materialize as inventory dwindles due to higher raw materials prices. Ikes and halfs are still very strong.
There's increasing anecdotal evidence that people are virtually hoarding eagle reverse quarters. I'm also seeing a huge attenuation in the grade distribution curves for every date. It had been only the early dates but now even the '80's and '90's quarters are disappearing in high grade. There are still plenty of nice bicentennial quarters but forget finding something like a nice attractive F 1969. If you find one this high grade it will be ugly. Even nice attractive '90's issues are not so common as last year.
It looks like eagle reverse coins are down to about 31% and more and more are culls. About 35% have significant problems and a lot of the rest are covered in tiny little scratches.
In my last sample of 1000 coins there were only 2 or 3 older quarters that were nice attractive F or better. Curiously one was a '69-D and almost VF.
@wondercoin said:
Coinscratchfever- If there ever was an underrated date in the MS Kennedy series, look no further than the 2000(d)! I can’t even begin to tell you how many man hours I personally spent (in the end) successfully getting a PCGS-MS67+ grade on this date for my collection. Not too surprisingly, ten or 15 years later, the coin I graded still remains pop 1/0! PCGS might be a touch forgiving on these D mint year 2000 MS67s just as they are with classic coins at times on key date series coins. PCGS gets to see plenty of MS67 P coins from 2000 as well as even MS68 quality P coins. When a half way decent D coin comes along every now and then a few get rewarded with the MS67 grade.
I think the '80-D is another dark horse since ~97% of them have shallow scrapes. For some reason the few that avoided being scraped tend to have unattractive surfaces and/ or weak strikes (especially unattractive surfaces). I got in the habit of saving almost anything without the scrapes unless they were ugly as well.
It's a real shame since there were some great strikes and very pristine coins that got scraped. It looks like they were damaged by the mint set handling equipment but this is mostly a guess. I have little experience with the '80-D in rolls.
That's '70-D, '80-D, and '00-D. But then the '90-D is none too common without scratching.
It looks like eagle reverse coins are down to about 31% and more and more are culls.
That's only twelve or thirteen eagle reverse quarters per roll and four or five are culls. Two or three are nice attractive coins but they'll almost invariably be common dates and very worn.
That’s a pretty informative report
I’ll add, largemouths are moving up to the shallows early and late and can be found working in a around boat docks chunkin a pumpkin seed colored Carolina rig on a quarter ounce weight.
“Great news @wondercoin. It would be great to get your coins TrueViewed to share.
To move modern coins to the next level, it would be great to get a custom insert as well. Many classic coin collectors have them, like Simpson and Pogue.
For moderns, the only collection I know of with a custom insert is @DLHansen. It would be great to get some more to showcase moderns getting more popular. Given that you have the No-S Ike, you could use the Ike Bi-Centennial Bell & Moon for your logo ”
Zoins. That is a wonderful idea to showcase moderns, but, I have never placed a single coin I own in a personalized holder and have no plans to do so anytime soon. For what reason, if you think about it? When these landmark coins are eventually sold, the new buyer (especially when very wealthy) in most cases simply removes your name and replaces it solely with their name! And, in my view, in many cases, in total disrespect to the true collector who spent decades and decades building the greatest collection of “this or that”. Enough said on this subject.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
Thanks Dcarr for that amplification! It’s a cool coin!
Wondercoin
Well, there's 14 fewer raw moderns...
It generally takes hundreds to thousands of mint sets to find that pop top mega rarity. And, that’s because many of these clad coins are as scarce, if not scarcer, than many classic coins from 100 years prior. Time will determine which clad coins become the “modern classics”. My daughter, Lauren, just finished screening the (375) 1996 mint sets I bought last month. She found around 5 or 6 coins out of 4,125 coins in those sets with any serious potential. From those half dozen coins perhaps 2 or 3 might work out for her (if any at all). That puts the odds of finding a valuable 1996 coin at well over 1,250x to 2,000X to 1 in the hunt. And, this was an easier date mint set! She has on tap about 100 of the 1989 Mint sets tonight. Maybe 50-50 at best she finds one nice coin out of the 1,000 total coins she will look at after dinner tonight! Fingers crossed.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Here is my 1969 25c, graded MS-65. It was the most "pretty" out of all the ugly ones I looked at over a period of time. The Denver 1969's are so much better, have a MS-67 example there.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I always figure that 2% of mint set coins are true Gems. It takes about 500 mint sets to get a super Gem and about 400 to find a coin made by new dies. New die Gems are very tough.
Inexperienced hunters should keep in mind though that some coins run very very nice. Coins like '89-D cents are almost always Gem and superb Gems are common. Even PL superb Gems appear in about 1% of sets. A few of these PL Gems actually look a lot like proofs; not '89 proofs but more like 1969 proofs.
I've looked at lots and lots of BU rolls and bags and can state categorically that for almost every date and denomination nice attractive well struck Gems are scarce. Clean coins aren't that hard in rolls and can be easier than mint sets but there are few well made coins in rolls. Finding Gems in mint sets is like shooting fish in a barrel. The '69 quarter, for instance, that is very scarce in original rolls wasn't that hard to find without marks in circulation. The problem was they were all badly centered mushy strikes from worn dies. The coins were not at all attractive. Mint set coins are well struck from good dies but have extensive retained planchet marking and lots of scratches.
Every modern is different. Some are really tough even in nice attractive MS-64. Some only come in mint sets and some don't come in mint sets at all. Some BU rolls are common but most are pretty hard to find and unattractive when you do find them.
I personally find the quarters most interesting but the market values the big dollars, then kennedys, cents, small dollars, nickels and the dimes and quarters last. But none of them can be searched on a shoe string any longer unless you can sell the castoffs at wholesale. Even then there are so many coins in the sets that won't bring chBU prices that it will be tougher to recoup the premiums unless you can find a few big dollar coins as well.
This is just a whole new ballgame now for the average collector. I always suggested a beginner should cherry pick sets but now it's probably too late and he'd be better advised to seek the out of the money PCGS coins and some of the other 3rd party graders' products. It is simply cost prohibitive to cherry sets unless you're a dealer or have access to dealers' stocks. And this is the point of the thread. With more people being forced to buy singles this will create a demand for BU rolls at wholesale. Many of these coins simply haven't survived more than half a century of "consumerism". So far most of the effect is on mint set prices but we're still only a couple months into this and it requires time to work off the backlog in stock and on eBay.
So we'll just have to see how this plays out over the near term. No doubt, there will be some surprises for everyone. Change has a way of creating unforeseeable consequences.
Nice coin.
You can see a little bit of the retained planchet marking even on Gems quite often. This one has some at about 4 O'clock.
The Denvers come nice!
In what sense are clad coins as scarce or scarcer than US coinage 100 years prior?
“In what sense are clad coins as scarce or scarcer than US coinage 100 years prior?”
Only in the sense of condition rarity based upon the respective beginning mintages. And, not all, of course, but many.
Wondercoin
Yep. I'm hooked. Here's my $82 mixed batch picked up today
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Who knows but I am reminded that the recent 2mil 93s was bought for 1$ initially
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I like the Innobucks, too. I'm actively collecting the reverse proofs.
CK: I thought I had a real shot at changing the current pop 1 MS68 on this non Mint Set year Kennedy into a pop 2. But, ownership once again “added a point” and I had to settle with an MS67 from our hosts. Nonetheless, it’s a highlight of my MS Kennedy set slowly closing in on Mr. Hansen’s #1 Registry set. Wondercoin
Nice coin!!
This coin is tough with so clean a shield. Die condition is excellent as well though the strike is a little weak.
I've never seen a better '83-P in hand but I've seen one or two better strikes.
Don't forget the varieties. Gems are a ton of fun but the varieties spice it up even more.
https://www.lincolncentforum.com/varieties-found-in-mint-sets/
Some of these varieties are so minor I don't even check for them but some are really spectacular. I also like the '88-P rotated reverse half and the '81-P type "d" reverse quarter.
You'll also see some great PL's and coins with unusual characteristics like smooth fields. Some of these are my favorites. For instance, about 1 1984 cent in 200 will have nice attractive surfaces. Even most of the '81-P coins come with nice surfaces. Try finding an '80-P half without shallow scrapes!!! When you do it will usually be one of the least attractive coins in the bunch! Mint sets are never created equal.
CK. Do you like my 1983-P better or 1983-D? Both MS67 currently. Wondercoin.
There's also the '66 no fg half, '65 rr half, and if memory serves an '84-D RPM quarter.
There are some really really different and spectacular SMS types.
I believe based on the photos and experience the '83-D is technically higher grade by almost a whole grade and I prefer untoned coins. But the Philly is in my opinion a tougher coin and more desirable even with the toning.
The Denver is no slouch since these are tough without scratches and gouges and the shield is even cleaner than the Philly.
Well I purchased another $300 worth on Friday. All 1965 - 1981. I'm going through slowly and looking closely at ones I think are worth sending in. I keep comparing them to what I have graded and deciding what to send in as an improvement for my sets.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I'm glad you have some knowledge here because it would be easy to get too optimistic and send in a lot of coins that aren't worth the grading fee (at the current time). I personally believe almost all the Gems are greatly underrated. Very few are common and are mostly cents and dimes when they are. Even the most common Gems in the larger denominations appear in fewer than 10% of sets. Most are closer to 2% and some are really quite scarce.
Most people have been ignoring these about forever and searched sets tend to be destroyed so there are lots of Gems still in the available sets. Even some of the better varieties are no less frequently encountered than they ever were.
At this time even some of the tougher Gems are worth no more than any other chBU. The primary driver of grading is the registry sets so after a few dozen are graded the price tends to settle no matter how tough the coin.
MS-64 and MS-65 will probably always be the "sweet spot" for moderns where prices are low enough for the average collector and the coins elusive enough. Quality at this level is quite good so collections are very attractive. Nice attractive MS-63's of coins like the '76 type I Ike, the '69 quarter, and the '83-P/D half dollars might end up being included in this "sweet spot" since higher grades are so tough.
While chBU and MS-60 coins can make nice sets as well the problem is many moderns in these lower grades are just ugly and collectors generally avoid ugly coins. Even MS-63's can be ugly since they can be very poorly made.
By the by it seems mint set prices are consolidating at these much higher levels but many sellers are out of stock on various dates. I believe the apparent stability won't last for this reason. It's just strange seeing SMS's advertised at near $25 after so many years under $4 bid. 1980 sets are nearly as high as the '81. And the '87 with the mint set only halves is one of the least expensive sets! This market is topsy turvy. There are buyers paying 50c each for some of the envelopes.
Think it's safe to keep the sets together that are not hazing and not worth grading, or best to cut and roll them?
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I've been cutting everything. The late dates aren't so important.
It just breaks my heart since one of my collections was "finest mint sets". Some of these sets were eerily nice and obviously assembled on purpose. I had a 1969 Denver packet with three PL coins and and all Gems including one that was from a brand new die. The odds of these coming together through mere chance are astronomical. The Philly set in the same package was a stunner but it could have occurred by chance. In fact most dates before 1980 can be found in "impossible" condition. I've never seen one after 1980 and would like to believe it was because of a retirement but they did start using more automation in mint set assembly, I believe.
But every time I pull sets out of my safety deposit boxes for sale I'm finding large percentages of the coins are tarnished. They really need to be stabilized and stored properly or they will be lost. Nearly 15% of the coins can't be cleaned, or at least, I don't know how. If you intend to just hold sets a few years for resale or speculation then cleaning isn't as important but the more tarnished they get the less the chance that acetone will help. Collectors are well advised to cut them up, IMO.
For Mr. Eureka… and his post on “sleeper” coins! 😂
Wondercoin
Privatecoin:
“Well I purchased another $300 worth on Friday. All 1965 - 1981. I'm going through slowly and looking closely at ones I think are worth sending in. I keep comparing them to what I have graded and deciding what to send in as an improvement for my sets.”
Keep up the fine work Privatecoin.
Just this past week, I spent another few hundred dollars buying up some PCGS coins in assorted grades just to give them to my daughter to remind her what she needs to beat in quality for her bulk modern submissions. She is a star screener already, but it never hurts to improve your “working library” of coins. A picture is worth a 1,000 words. If I want to produce a scarce MS67+ Kennedy 50C of a certain date, let’s make sure she has an old Green label nice quality MS67 coin sitting on the table right next to her with a goal to find me a better quality specimen! And this “library of coins” might even resell for a profit when Lauren is finished with them!
Wondercoin
Edited to add- another (former) pop 1/0 MS67+ coin, my “team” just made into a pop 2/0 coin.
Once you get an eye for that luster there's no mistaken it. I liken it to shark tooth hunting on the beach. The prehistoric ones are typically small black triangles. And unless you know what your looking for you'll never find it.
After completing the 1932-1964 Washington set nearly 20 years ago, I set a goal of finishing the 1965-1998 set in MS66 or better. It was never a high priority, but after seeing the prices some dates have sold for recently, I think it may be time to resume working on it. I bought this 1969 in MS66 earlier this year. It has nice luster, and a few light marks, but it's still far better than the vast majority of 69's. That's followed by a raw 1971 that I bought in the mid-1990's from a dealer's stock of coins that had been cut out of mint sets. I'm going to include it in my next submission to PCGS, hoping for a MS66. It has a couple small marks on the base of Washington's neck, and a couple other minor marks on the obverse. The reverse is nearly perfect. The luster is decent, but I wish it had more brilliance.
A “bump” (16) days later because I am almost ready to post (probably next week) the results of my daughter Lauren screening approximately the better part of 15,000 - 20,000 reasonably fresh “moderns” (a fair number of which in US mint sealed shipping boxes that never saw the light of day before she opened them) over the past roughly two months.
And, before reporting my results- there were quite a few board members on this thread that were sending in raw moderns to our host in search of pop top grades. Any luck from anyone?
Wondercoin
So, This is the reason I can no longer buy Mint Sets for under face value!
I’ve been super busy of late relocating my business while struggling to keep up with its growth. So my hunt mostly has been on hold but not for much longer. I’m anxious to see how she did. Of those numbers I’m expecting to see some 67’s and better. Something inspiring for me at just the right time.
Sorry to hear about the attrition. Storage conditions can affect even the most expensive of coins, like 1804 dollars, and leads to fewer pristine survivors.
If any are still pristine, perhaps it's time to cut them up, send to our hosts for TrueViews and put on the market?
I worked for a dealer in my area who buys quantities of proof & mint sets off Coinnet, much of it from repeat sellers. This dealer paid me to go through the mint setss and select the singles to bulk submit to PCGS. We would leave the individual coins still housed in the mint set plastic and let PCGS remove the coins.
My dealer friend scored some winners was able to place them with person's building registry sets. I got burned out looking through a couple thousand mint sets in the process. (I had been going through mint sets on my own for over two decades.)
Cuprinkor: Just curious, if you feel like sharing…
Your friend/dealer you did all this work for - did he or she have a compensation arrangement that greatly rewarded you for your finds, especially your big finds, from the hunt? I personally find that through offering a very meaningful % of the value of the finds as “bonus” compensation to the “hunter” (20%-33% for example in many cases depending upon the type of coin involved), the “burn out” is mostly avoided. I prefer my “hunters” to have “skin in the game” for the hunt! And, while they can, from time to time as I do, enjoy the “thrill of victory”, I also want them to “feel the agony of defeat” along with me (most of the time) because this is tough work and not easy to make a buck at it. That said, there is no better feeling as when you know / believe you grade your series’ of choice better than the pros at the grading services. And, to get there takes screening thousands upon thousands upon thousands of sets of coins. One might as well perfect their skills while someone else is paying for the learning curve.
Wondercoin.
Geez, I feel like Charlie...
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it and it would cease to be profitable.
Wondercoin,
All of this occurred in 2019 and early 2020 (just before Covid hit). I was paid by the hour. My dealer friend had a bulk deal pricing arrangement with PCGS. He could also send in proof sets where PCGS would remove and grade all the coins. I never cared for 1968-on proof sets (because don't they all come nice?). And because you have to get a PR70 essentially to make any money. As a result I was concerned if this arrangement would actually be worth his time & money since the large majority of coins being submitted were from the proof sets.
He did get a 1970-D Kennedy back in MS67 from one of the submissions and actually sold it on eBay early this year for $5000.
Wondercoin,
After many years searching mint sets and original BU rolls,
I definitely have my opinion of what is a gem modern coin, be it a 1965-98 clad quarter, Lincoln Memorial Cent or C-N Ike Dollar
I have to ask, "What does it take to make a PCGS MS67RD Lincoln Cent from 1960-67?"
Anyone care to answer?
“He did get a 1970-D Kennedy back in MS67 from one of the submissions and actually sold it on eBay early this year for $5000.”
Great story! Did you find this 70-D coin for him yourself? I seem to recall that coin on eBay, but Coinfacts is not reporting an eBay sale as far as I can tell. If memory serves me right, I made (1) MS67 Kennedy 70-D in (37) years of aggressively pursuing that date and denomination. So, that was good fortune for your friend to slab one in a year or less of hunting for it.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin,
After many years searching mint sets and original BU rolls,
I definitely have my opinion of what is a gem modern coin, be it a 1965-98 clad quarter, Lincoln Memorial Cent or C-N Ike Dollar. I have to ask, "What does it take to make a PCGS MS67RD Lincoln Cent from 1960-67?". Anyone care to answer?
Well, of course, the easy answer is submitting an MS68+RD coin. 😂
Wondercoin
Here are three 67's from CoinFacts. Does strike and luster really make up this much ground against hits?
I feel like If I sent any one of these in it would come back MS64.
Coinscratchfever- If there ever was an underrated date in the MS Kennedy series, look no further than the 2000(d)! I can’t even begin to tell you how many man hours I personally spent (in the end) successfully getting a PCGS-MS67+ grade on this date for my collection. Not too surprisingly, ten or 15 years later, the coin I graded still remains pop 1/0! PCGS might be a touch forgiving on these D mint year 2000 MS67s just as they are with classic coins at times on key date series coins. PCGS gets to see plenty of MS67 P coins from 2000 as well as even MS68 quality P coins. When a half way decent D coin comes along every now and then a few get rewarded with the MS67 grade.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin,
I did find the coin. That's what I was hired for- to go through his mint sets and 1968-71 proof sets and recommend which coins to submit.
I was able to select individual circulation strike issues and cut them from mint set, leaving that coin housed in its own cellophane. I selected which proof sets should be sent and PCGS did the rest, removing those coins and grading them.
I made the second PCGS MS67 1970-D JFK back in 2000 and it brought $825 in a Teletrade auction back then.
I've always liked nice 70-D 50c.
“I've always liked nice 70-D 50c.”
Me too. Especially the strong PL coins !!
Wondercoin
Wondercoin:
I wish your PCGS registry set of 1965-98 clad was open to viewing. I have a feeling that a coin or two I made just might be in your set.
Cuprinkor. The vast majority of the coins in my clad quarter set are “homemade”, but I have bought a slabbed coin here and there over the years when I was bored or the price seemed very reasonable (or both). But, the biggest problem is that only a fraction of the coins are truviewed at the moment so you can’t see most of the coins anyway. But, I may solve that problem very soon as I haven’t resubmitted nearly all of the set in years, but since I will be “down the street” from PCGS for most of the remaining days of this year (in CA), I will probably let PCGS see a bunch of the coins. The set should likely be ready for viewing in about 90-120 including many more pics of coins in the set.
Wondercoin
Great news @wondercoin. It would be great to get your coins TrueViewed to share.
To move modern coins to the next level, it would be great to get a custom insert as well. Many classic coin collectors have them, like Simpson and Pogue.
For moderns, the only collection I know of with a custom insert is @DLHansen. It would be great to get some more to showcase moderns getting more popular. Given that you have the No-S Ike, you could use the Ike Bi-Centennial Bell & Moon for your logo
I'm seeing a little weakening in price but with the run-up so sudden this is to be expected. We've been working off a huge overhang for a very long time and there's nothing like a steep and sudden increase to bring sets out of the woodwork. I had been expecting (hoping) this would be pretty quick. There's still a lot of missing dates in inventory but sellers aren't moving enough of these sets that the gaps have much effect on sales. And, they probably figure that if they're out of '71 sets then customers will buy other dates.
I'd estimate aggregate demand at about 100 sets of each date per day with nearly half of these going at retail. It's difficult to predict how long supplies will last at these prices because it's impossible to predict the behavior of sellers. There are probably fewer tired longs than anyone imagines and most sellers have only several dozen sets to pack up to ship. But, there are a lot of sellers and how they react to price increases is anyone's guess.
I'm still not seeing any pressure on BU rolls but I think this will naturally materialize as inventory dwindles due to higher raw materials prices. Ikes and halfs are still very strong.
There's increasing anecdotal evidence that people are virtually hoarding eagle reverse quarters. I'm also seeing a huge attenuation in the grade distribution curves for every date. It had been only the early dates but now even the '80's and '90's quarters are disappearing in high grade. There are still plenty of nice bicentennial quarters but forget finding something like a nice attractive F 1969. If you find one this high grade it will be ugly. Even nice attractive '90's issues are not so common as last year.
It looks like eagle reverse coins are down to about 31% and more and more are culls. About 35% have significant problems and a lot of the rest are covered in tiny little scratches.
In my last sample of 1000 coins there were only 2 or 3 older quarters that were nice attractive F or better. Curiously one was a '69-D and almost VF.
I think the '80-D is another dark horse since ~97% of them have shallow scrapes. For some reason the few that avoided being scraped tend to have unattractive surfaces and/ or weak strikes (especially unattractive surfaces). I got in the habit of saving almost anything without the scrapes unless they were ugly as well.
It's a real shame since there were some great strikes and very pristine coins that got scraped. It looks like they were damaged by the mint set handling equipment but this is mostly a guess. I have little experience with the '80-D in rolls.
That's '70-D, '80-D, and '00-D. But then the '90-D is none too common without scratching.
That's only twelve or thirteen eagle reverse quarters per roll and four or five are culls. Two or three are nice attractive coins but they'll almost invariably be common dates and very worn.
That’s a pretty informative report
I’ll add, largemouths are moving up to the shallows early and late and can be found working in a around boat docks chunkin a pumpkin seed colored Carolina rig on a quarter ounce weight.
Sorry for the knee jerk I heard the word cull.
“I'm seeing a little weakening in price but with the run-up so sudden this is to be expected”
CK: I stopped buying. 😂
Wondercoin
“Great news @wondercoin. It would be great to get your coins TrueViewed to share.
”
To move modern coins to the next level, it would be great to get a custom insert as well. Many classic coin collectors have them, like Simpson and Pogue.
For moderns, the only collection I know of with a custom insert is @DLHansen. It would be great to get some more to showcase moderns getting more popular. Given that you have the No-S Ike, you could use the Ike Bi-Centennial Bell & Moon for your logo
Zoins. That is a wonderful idea to showcase moderns, but, I have never placed a single coin I own in a personalized holder and have no plans to do so anytime soon. For what reason, if you think about it? When these landmark coins are eventually sold, the new buyer (especially when very wealthy) in most cases simply removes your name and replaces it solely with their name! And, in my view, in many cases, in total disrespect to the true collector who spent decades and decades building the greatest collection of “this or that”. Enough said on this subject.
Wondercoin.