please people, write to the mint director and get that HHL down to 5 per initially
Will that really work? I know a HHL of 25 is awfully high for such a high demand but wouldn't the HHL even down to 1 cause a sellout in minutes with these? I'll shoot off an email to Ryder but I see another frustrating crash ahead. I hope more of us send messages to the mint...even if it will be upon deaf ears.
It will not work. You are not telling the Mint Director anything they don't know. It's not like they don't sometimes use HHL of one. They've used, in the last year, to my recollection: 1, 5, 25, 99. They made a conscious decision as to the mintage and the method of distribution.
I don't understand the thinking behind the HHL of 25. How many households would want 25 for their collection? Seems to me like they are catering to resellers.
@Halfpence said:
I don't understand the thinking behind the HHL of 25. How many households would want 25 for their collection? Seems to me like they are catering to resellers.
Why was it 99 on the ASEs??
Honestly, the strategy is to create artificial demand. A normal commem might sell 50 to 100,000. Let's assume, for the sake of argument that is also true of these commems. If you sell them with a HHL of 1, then all 100,000 people buy one and you're done. How do you sell more than 100,000? You can't easily do so if the demand is 100,000. HOWEVER, create the illusion of rarity and encourage people to buy more than one and you end up selling 175-200,000 even though your final demand is really only 100,000.
You won't get a lot of people buying 25, but you will get a lot of people buying 2-5. And you will get enough people buying 25 to guarantee a sell-out which gives you a temporary price boost in the market that creates the illusion of value.
In the long run, only the mintage is going to matter. I fully expect the ASEs to be under issue price in two years. I fully expect these commems to be under issue price in two years. But the secondary market is only indirectly related to the Mint's ability to sell product.
@Halfpence said:
I don't understand the thinking behind the HHL of 25. How many households would want 25 for their collection? Seems to me like they are catering to resellers.
That why it is known as "The Puzzle Palace" They have years of perfecting the art of unfathomable misdirection. Favor dealers, not necessarily a bad thing, and hiding the fact from an increasingly frustrated loyal buying collector base. Ask any politician which is worse: the crime or the cover-up? Dishonesty, hypocrisy and insider dealing are some of the most hated characteristics of Washington "elites". The Mint Director is resembling this more and more with each succeeding opening day ordering debacle that occurs.
@markelman1125 said:
Might get one because they are cool but if I had to chose between a 2021 peace / Morgan or an original Morgan and 1921 peace, I would chose the original. The mint dose not make coins the same way as they did 100 years ago.
The U.S. Mint seems to be putting the same amount of silver into these new Morgan dollars as they put into the ones from 100 years ago but at 0.999 fineness. If they're not going to put one full troy ounce into these coins, I do wish they'd blend in the copper to make it have the same metallic content as the original Morgan dollars. As it is, it seems that the new Morgan dollars are going to be thinner than the original ones while keeping the same 1.5" diameter.
That said, I'm definitely going to buy these. I'm kind of on the fence for the CC and O privy mark variants, especially at the mark-up the mint is asking.
@DelawareDoons said:
I will not be going after the Morgans and I love Morgans. They look terrible.
I may go for peace. Probably not.
HHL 25 and Oct Delivery kills the flip on most of these and I have zero interest in owning mass produced garbage bullion rounds, which is what these are.
Most of the original morgans and peace dollars were mass produced bullion in order to funnel money to silver mining industries. They certainly weren’t needed for commerce.
I was aware and that's a fair accusation, but at the end of the day, these new ones look like doggy doo.
The mint should strike these from melted down junk Morgan and Peace dollars.
@DelawareDoons said:
I will not be going after the Morgans and I love Morgans. They look terrible.
I may go for peace. Probably not.
HHL 25 and Oct Delivery kills the flip on most of these and I have zero interest in owning mass produced garbage bullion rounds, which is what these are.
Most of the original morgans and peace dollars were mass produced bullion in order to funnel money to silver mining industries. They certainly weren’t needed for commerce.
I was aware and that's a fair accusation, but at the end of the day, these new ones look like doggy doo.
The mint should strike these from melted down junk Morgan and Peace dollars.
That would be a nice way to get the fineness without a lot of work. But they won’t do that. Same reason they didn’t do 90% gold for the 2016 centennials and similar. It would look more ‘correct’ at least.
I envision a lot of people buying the HHL of 25. The Mint is a flippers marketplace, and that's just what will happen. Whether it's dealers or flippers, there will be a ton of orders for 25. Plus, they will have their friends, relatives, and paid stooges ordering 25. These coins will sell out extremely quick.
@JeffM said:
I envision a lot of people buying the HHL of 25. The Mint is a flippers marketplace, and that's just what will happen. Whether it's dealers or flippers, there will be a ton of orders for 25. Plus, they will have their friends, relatives, and paid stooges ordering 25. These coins will sell out extremely quick.
Idk. You'll get some idea if there are any pre-sale bids or any pre-sale selling. There will be flipping, of course, but if the market retail price is $100 or less before the sale, then there's not a lot of meat on the bone for an easy flip.
This is a tough one to figure because of what it is and where the mintage falls. If this was a random commemorative, then 175,000 mintage would guarantee no sell out even with no HHL as most commems don't sell more than 50,000 or so.
But it's not a random commem, it's a commemorative of a popular series of dollars. So demand will likely be higher.
On the other hand, there are 6 varieties. [How many privy mark collectors are there?] That's a total mintage of over 1 million. How many people will want all 6 for a $500 price tag?
The one to watch/get might be the sole Peace Dollar. People may want a Morgan and a Peace but not all 5 Morgans. That would make the Peace $ the scarcer issue.
You've also got the 4 months lag between purchase and delivery. How many cancellations will occur? What happens to the price between May and October? You could well have a lot of flippers eating it on this one.
Unless the mint does an exceptional job with the design/production of these coins, there will be a lot of “flipper risk”. If the collector community is disappointed with the finish, flat features (a la old SF mint commem), or even the thin planchet, they may be hard to get rid of in October.
@Samuel8 said:
Do you think this Morgan dollar situation will look like that for the baseball hall of fame coin?
I think this will be more like the gold dimes, quarters, and half dollars issued in 2016. These coins like the 2016 coins are orphans, they do not belong to a series. The first coins will sell out rapidly, the later issues may not even hit the full mintages. The TV guys will buy a ton of them and push them hard for the holiday season. They will drop in value very quickly after the first of the year.
I actually hope this is not a complete debacle...I just want a couple of each and I'll be a happy camper.
I have written my letter for a 5 HHL and will be mailing tomorrow. It seems the fax number has been disconnected.
Once the HHL is lifted people can order in bulk. I would think only a few days of 5 HHL would be needed.
I will say that many here do not seem to be jumping up and down about buying all of them, buying more than one of each and even some are going to buy 1 or 2 options. Perhaps these will not sell out at a HHL of 5. At 25, if flippers go crazy it may be a debacle with the likelihood they are not flippable and start returning in bulk. For this additional reason I suggest a HHL of 5 to start.
No. A coin that is produced to be sold only to collectors at a premium is a "souvenir", a "product" or a "commemorative". The only reason this coin will be produced is to make a profit for the mint. The decision as to whether the collecting community should consider it "part of the series" will, however, be made by those who stand to make a profit from its inclusion.
@ms71 said:
No. A coin that is produced to be sold only to collectors at a premium is a "souvenir", a "product" or a "commemorative". The only reason this coin will be produced is to make a profit for the mint. The decision as to whether the collecting community should consider it "part of the series" will, however, be made by those who stand to make a profit from its inclusion.
What about all those Morgan dollars that were minted as a favor to the silver industry and spent 100 years in Treasury vaults? I think this is a far more complicated question. That would make all recent Kennedy $1/2s "commemorative" only and not "part of the series". That would make 1973 Ikes and 1970-D Kennedy halves not "part of the series".
@MsMorrisine said:
I'm saying we need to write the mint director again.
Request a 5 HHL for the first week, then a 25 HHL after or until they determine a HHL is no longer necessary.
(or perhaps a 5 HHL then none????)
Mint Director Ryder
US Mint Headquarters
801 9th Street, NW
Washington, D.C. 20220
175,000 / 25 means a minimum 7,000 orders if everyone is all in. this could be another fight against flippers.
What needs to happen is congress needs to pass coinage laws without unanimous consent and actually have folks from the hobby come and testify like they did with state quarters in the 1990s.
@Raybob15239 said:
These will all be business strikes, with no proofs; is that correct?
That’s all they’ve shown so far. I personally don’t expect that to be it. I’d about guarantee some proofs. The proofs may end up looking nicer in the end.
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@Raybob15239 said:
These will all be business strikes, with no proofs; is that correct?
That’s all they’ve shown so far. I personally don’t expect that to be it. I’d about guarantee some proofs. The proofs may end up looking nicer in the end.
I'd about guarantee there will Not be any proofs...
@Raybob15239 said:
These will all be business strikes, with no proofs; is that correct?
That’s all they’ve shown so far. I personally don’t expect that to be it. I’d about guarantee some proofs. The proofs may end up looking nicer in the end.
I'd about guarantee there will Not be any proofs...
I tend to agree. They are having a hard time with existing offerings without adding more.
@Raybob15239 said:
These will all be business strikes, with no proofs; is that correct?
That’s all they’ve shown so far. I personally don’t expect that to be it. I’d about guarantee some proofs. The proofs may end up looking nicer in the end.
I'd about guarantee there will Not be any proofs...
That would be surprising indeed. Since this isn’t necessarily limited to this year (though it may practically be) maybe they will for next year?
So the first two Morgans are available for PRE-ORDER on May 24'th. How is pre-ordering different from a BUY NOW button? Does that mean you can try to buy them but it's not really set in stone, the mint can send you an apology email of unavailability??? How does the mint use this new pre-ordering button??
@Onastone said:
So the first two Morgans are available for PRE-ORDER on May 24'th. How is pre-ordering different from a BUY NOW button? Does that mean you can try to buy them but it's not really set in stone, the mint can send you an apology email of unavailability??? How does the mint use this new pre-ordering button??
The product limit is 175,000 for Morgan’s.
They will have exactly 0 of them ready on May 24th.
Once the pre-sale window is closed, there will be several months for people to cancel. However, sometime along the way they will order the ogp and mint the coins to what was pre-ordered.
In other threads there I was saying “mint to demand.” This will be a great experiment to see how this version of it works.
I'm OK with the tribute coin being less attractive aesthetically from the classic Morgan series. Let the modern collectors appreciate the differences in relief and sharp devices etc. from the original design.
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint..
@fathom said:
I'm OK with the tribute coin being less attractive aesthetically from the classic Morgan series. Let the modern collectors appreciate the differences in relief and sharp devices etc. from the original design.
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint..
This is a rather presumptive jump. How do you know the tribute coin isn't more attractive than the original? No one has seen one. They haven't even minted any to my knowledge.
@fathom said:
I'm OK with the tribute coin being less attractive aesthetically from the classic Morgan series. Let the modern collectors appreciate the differences in relief and sharp devices etc. from the original design.
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint..
This is a refreshing perspective. The new Morgans will definitely be different from the old, and one thing they will almost certainly do is increase interest in the old silver dollars. Perhaps now is the time to pick up some Morgans or Peace dollars before future demand increases the price.
You spoke and the Mint listened! The household order limit has been lowered from 25 to 10 for the following products:
• 21XC Morgan Dollar with “CC” privy mark
• 21XD Morgan Dollar with “O” privy mark
• 21XF Morgan Dollar (S) mint mark
• 21XG Morgan Dollar (D) mint mark
• 21XE Morgan Dollar no privy or mint mark
• 21XH Peace Dollar no privy or mint mark
Please visit https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/ for more information about each product.
@fathom said:
I'm OK with the tribute coin being less attractive aesthetically from the classic Morgan series. Let the modern collectors appreciate the differences in relief and sharp devices etc. from the original design.
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint..
I don't understand. It's hard to go to any show and not see hundreds or thousands of Morgans. Are there many/any collectors advanced enough to order from the mint, but never have been to a show or a shop?
By the time you finally get though and get one or the limit into your bag it will be unavailable or you will get hung up on a captcha screen, good times coming.
@morgansforever said:
By the time you finally get though and get one or the limit into your bag it will be unavailable or you will get hung up on a captcha screen, good times coming.
@morgansforever said:
By the time you finally get though and get one or the limit into your bag it will be unavailable or you will get hung up on a captcha screen, good times coming.
@cagcrisp said:
You spoke and the Mint listened! The household order limit has been lowered from 25 to 10 for the following products:
• 21XC Morgan Dollar with “CC” privy mark
• 21XD Morgan Dollar with “O” privy mark
• 21XF Morgan Dollar (S) mint mark
• 21XG Morgan Dollar (D) mint mark
• 21XE Morgan Dollar no privy or mint mark
• 21XH Peace Dollar no privy or mint mark
Please visit https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/ for more information about each product.
Wow! Nice job, folks. It pays to make your voice heard.
@cagcrisp said:
You spoke and the Mint listened! The household order limit has been lowered from 25 to 10 for the following products:
• 21XC Morgan Dollar with “CC” privy mark
• 21XD Morgan Dollar with “O” privy mark
• 21XF Morgan Dollar (S) mint mark
• 21XG Morgan Dollar (D) mint mark
• 21XE Morgan Dollar no privy or mint mark
• 21XH Peace Dollar no privy or mint mark
Please visit https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/ for more information about each product.
Wow! Nice job, folks. It pays to make your voice heard.
Absolutely great! But, now the poor flippers on this forum will have to gather their friends, relatives, and hired hands in order to buy their 100+ coins on that first day. Or, they will have to oil up their bots for quick purchases.
Comments
This is the BEST description for what is coming!!!! It's like seeing a storm on the horizon and nowhere to run....dark skies closing in.
It will not work. You are not telling the Mint Director anything they don't know. It's not like they don't sometimes use HHL of one. They've used, in the last year, to my recollection: 1, 5, 25, 99. They made a conscious decision as to the mintage and the method of distribution.
I don't understand the thinking behind the HHL of 25. How many households would want 25 for their collection? Seems to me like they are catering to resellers.
Why was it 99 on the ASEs??
Honestly, the strategy is to create artificial demand. A normal commem might sell 50 to 100,000. Let's assume, for the sake of argument that is also true of these commems. If you sell them with a HHL of 1, then all 100,000 people buy one and you're done. How do you sell more than 100,000? You can't easily do so if the demand is 100,000. HOWEVER, create the illusion of rarity and encourage people to buy more than one and you end up selling 175-200,000 even though your final demand is really only 100,000.
You won't get a lot of people buying 25, but you will get a lot of people buying 2-5. And you will get enough people buying 25 to guarantee a sell-out which gives you a temporary price boost in the market that creates the illusion of value.
In the long run, only the mintage is going to matter. I fully expect the ASEs to be under issue price in two years. I fully expect these commems to be under issue price in two years. But the secondary market is only indirectly related to the Mint's ability to sell product.
That why it is known as "The Puzzle Palace" They have years of perfecting the art of unfathomable misdirection. Favor dealers, not necessarily a bad thing, and hiding the fact from an increasingly frustrated loyal buying collector base. Ask any politician which is worse: the crime or the cover-up? Dishonesty, hypocrisy and insider dealing are some of the most hated characteristics of Washington "elites". The Mint Director is resembling this more and more with each succeeding opening day ordering debacle that occurs.
The U.S. Mint seems to be putting the same amount of silver into these new Morgan dollars as they put into the ones from 100 years ago but at 0.999 fineness. If they're not going to put one full troy ounce into these coins, I do wish they'd blend in the copper to make it have the same metallic content as the original Morgan dollars. As it is, it seems that the new Morgan dollars are going to be thinner than the original ones while keeping the same 1.5" diameter.
That said, I'm definitely going to buy these. I'm kind of on the fence for the CC and O privy mark variants, especially at the mark-up the mint is asking.
The mint should strike these from melted down junk Morgan and Peace dollars.
That would be a nice way to get the fineness without a lot of work. But they won’t do that. Same reason they didn’t do 90% gold for the 2016 centennials and similar. It would look more ‘correct’ at least.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Agree. I wish the metal composition was the same.
I envision a lot of people buying the HHL of 25. The Mint is a flippers marketplace, and that's just what will happen. Whether it's dealers or flippers, there will be a ton of orders for 25. Plus, they will have their friends, relatives, and paid stooges ordering 25. These coins will sell out extremely quick.
Idk. You'll get some idea if there are any pre-sale bids or any pre-sale selling. There will be flipping, of course, but if the market retail price is $100 or less before the sale, then there's not a lot of meat on the bone for an easy flip.
This is a tough one to figure because of what it is and where the mintage falls. If this was a random commemorative, then 175,000 mintage would guarantee no sell out even with no HHL as most commems don't sell more than 50,000 or so.
But it's not a random commem, it's a commemorative of a popular series of dollars. So demand will likely be higher.
On the other hand, there are 6 varieties. [How many privy mark collectors are there?] That's a total mintage of over 1 million. How many people will want all 6 for a $500 price tag?
The one to watch/get might be the sole Peace Dollar. People may want a Morgan and a Peace but not all 5 Morgans. That would make the Peace $ the scarcer issue.
You've also got the 4 months lag between purchase and delivery. How many cancellations will occur? What happens to the price between May and October? You could well have a lot of flippers eating it on this one.
Unless the mint does an exceptional job with the design/production of these coins, there will be a lot of “flipper risk”. If the collector community is disappointed with the finish, flat features (a la old SF mint commem), or even the thin planchet, they may be hard to get rid of in October.
Quick question...and sorry if this was already covered 100 posts earlier...
Will these be part of the Mint's subscription program or will they all be sold during the Day 1 free for all?
No to the subscription question.
Do you think this Morgan dollar situation will look like that for the baseball hall of fame coin?
it has potential
I think this will be more like the gold dimes, quarters, and half dollars issued in 2016. These coins like the 2016 coins are orphans, they do not belong to a series. The first coins will sell out rapidly, the later issues may not even hit the full mintages. The TV guys will buy a ton of them and push them hard for the holiday season. They will drop in value very quickly after the first of the year.
[They will drop in value very quickly after the first of the year.]
Famous last words!
I actually hope this is not a complete debacle...I just want a couple of each and I'll be a happy camper.
I have written my letter for a 5 HHL and will be mailing tomorrow. It seems the fax number has been disconnected.
Once the HHL is lifted people can order in bulk. I would think only a few days of 5 HHL would be needed.
I will say that many here do not seem to be jumping up and down about buying all of them, buying more than one of each and even some are going to buy 1 or 2 options. Perhaps these will not sell out at a HHL of 5. At 25, if flippers go crazy it may be a debacle with the likelihood they are not flippable and start returning in bulk. For this additional reason I suggest a HHL of 5 to start.
[I have written my letter for a 5 HHL and will be mailing tomorrow. It seems the fax number has been disconnected.]
Totally agree...5 is a reasonable number at the start...and we know those who are determined will still get more.
But starting at 25 seems like they're inviting an avoidable freak show right out of the gate!
No. A coin that is produced to be sold only to collectors at a premium is a "souvenir", a "product" or a "commemorative". The only reason this coin will be produced is to make a profit for the mint. The decision as to whether the collecting community should consider it "part of the series" will, however, be made by those who stand to make a profit from its inclusion.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
What about all those Morgan dollars that were minted as a favor to the silver industry and spent 100 years in Treasury vaults? I think this is a far more complicated question. That would make all recent Kennedy $1/2s "commemorative" only and not "part of the series". That would make 1973 Ikes and 1970-D Kennedy halves not "part of the series".
I'm really torn. I can argue both sides of it.
What needs to happen is congress needs to pass coinage laws without unanimous consent and actually have folks from the hobby come and testify like they did with state quarters in the 1990s.
Not a fan of the "privy" cartouche with the O and CC marks. I will still be a sucker and try to buy one of each.
These will all be business strikes, with no proofs; is that correct?
That’s all they’ve shown so far. I personally don’t expect that to be it. I’d about guarantee some proofs. The proofs may end up looking nicer in the end.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Rooting for the seagulls to take it in the cloaca
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
That is awesome.
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I'd about guarantee there will Not be any proofs...
I tend to agree. They are having a hard time with existing offerings without adding more.
That would be surprising indeed. Since this isn’t necessarily limited to this year (though it may practically be) maybe they will for next year?
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
So the first two Morgans are available for PRE-ORDER on May 24'th. How is pre-ordering different from a BUY NOW button? Does that mean you can try to buy them but it's not really set in stone, the mint can send you an apology email of unavailability??? How does the mint use this new pre-ordering button??
Snail mail and faxes. I feel like I've gone back in time...
What’s the email?
Snail seems to work. Faxes worked when they had their number.
The product limit is 175,000 for Morgan’s.
They will have exactly 0 of them ready on May 24th.
Once the pre-sale window is closed, there will be several months for people to cancel. However, sometime along the way they will order the ogp and mint the coins to what was pre-ordered.
In other threads there I was saying “mint to demand.” This will be a great experiment to see how this version of it works.
I'm OK with the tribute coin being less attractive aesthetically from the classic Morgan series. Let the modern collectors appreciate the differences in relief and sharp devices etc. from the original design.
What is clear to me is that this new issue will give modern collectors a direct link to the classic Morgan series. This is a huge potential positive for the market. Those that cry there is not enough interest in the hobby moving forward should accept the new series as a continuation and an opportunity for more tribute products from the Mint..
This is a rather presumptive jump. How do you know the tribute coin isn't more attractive than the original? No one has seen one. They haven't even minted any to my knowledge.
This is a refreshing perspective. The new Morgans will definitely be different from the old, and one thing they will almost certainly do is increase interest in the old silver dollars. Perhaps now is the time to pick up some Morgans or Peace dollars before future demand increases the price.
You spoke and the Mint listened! The household order limit has been lowered from 25 to 10 for the following products:
• 21XC Morgan Dollar with “CC” privy mark
• 21XD Morgan Dollar with “O” privy mark
• 21XF Morgan Dollar (S) mint mark
• 21XG Morgan Dollar (D) mint mark
• 21XE Morgan Dollar no privy or mint mark
• 21XH Peace Dollar no privy or mint mark
Please visit https://catalog.usmint.gov/product-schedule/ for more information about each product.
I don't understand. It's hard to go to any show and not see hundreds or thousands of Morgans. Are there many/any collectors advanced enough to order from the mint, but never have been to a show or a shop?
By the time you finally get though and get one or the limit into your bag it will be unavailable or you will get hung up on a captcha screen, good times coming.
You better start practicing.
This is exactly what I'm expecting.
Wow! Nice job, folks. It pays to make your voice heard.
they haven't received the mail yet
They did receive the emails, though.
what's the email address ?
mint-support@usmcatalog.com
Absolutely great! But, now the poor flippers on this forum will have to gather their friends, relatives, and hired hands in order to buy their 100+ coins on that first day. Or, they will have to oil up their bots for quick purchases.