@UFFDAH said: @1951WheatiesPremium - you got me thinking. With the two unopened 76 FB cellos maybe I can pull off a Payton in each paw...hmmmm.....da Bears!!
Payton cellos in the paws of an actual bear? And the bear is named Ditka...
...ah, jeez, here it comes again...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
We always hear buy the holder and not the card, and this is a great example of that advice. Whether it is an 8 or an 8.5 where are you going to find a Brown rookie that looks like this example in regards to centering and eye appeal? That should say enough.
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I'm a realist. And honest as they come- sometimes that honesty comes out rather coldly. Apologies to Chris if I seemed to come off that way wasn't the intent. I love the provenance and - who it happened to alone makes me happy to see.
Understood on the quoted above part - the first thought that came into my head after viewing the video also was similar- let me just sit here and admire the fact another well liked collector was able to pull such a great example . I just wanted to get thru to the "it should have graded higher" crowd. No = it shouldn't have. Its a cold , hard assessment of its merits both good and bad- one stated so quite well in your initial assessment ( my personal mantra #1- cold assessment of true condition) . What you stated above was my own mantra # 2- buy the card and not the holder.
Quite a few people would love to own the card. On provenance alone it would never leave my own PC if I pulled one. Or at least until I retired/died and heirs could sell it then.
Its not a knock on the card itself- its another viewpoint on the card's current grade = stated rather coldly.
Sometimes we don't like hearing that side of things. I try and do it softly- sometimes it comes out negative.
But I also believe in educating the new gen there will always be two sides to every coin.
Emotions got nothing to do with grading levels. Cold hard facts. They are defined and are supposed to be followed. It checked off 2 major no no and that's an 8. It is a high end 8. I just don't agree on the 8.5 high crowd . A better oval- yes I can ignore the print marks and focus. No way a 9 with that focus- sorry 8 all day long and twice on Sunday. I may not like it but reality says that's the standard. Now are there prior graded cards not as harshly graded ? Yes. Which is why this will garner 8.5 money easily.
Hope that explains my side of things-
Jeff
p.s. I'm not always awake during the day I work graves ( 1am-9amPST) hence why I sometimes post so late.
I need to see some examples of this so called better oval on the Jim Brown rookies. Can someone please post an example? I don't ever recall seeing one, they are all way off centered, even the ones graded 8.5 and 9. I can post 20 plus links to current and former Jim Brown rookies and I have owned dozens, they all have the crappy oval.
If this card isn't an 8.5 you will not see one for 5 years.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
The oval has a shift to it. It is not the centering of the oval. Compare the oval on mine to the OP's. Look at the bottom of the oval on the bottom image and compare it to my Jim Brown and you should see the difference.
@Cakes said:
I am not seeing what you are seeing, ovals look the same.
Btw that's a nice card!
I think he’s talking about a curve of lightness in color (related to the printing) in the lower left corner where the oval that contains the image of Jim Brown meets the black.
I think that is also why the PSA 4 image has less blur; they must have overlaid the printing of brown in two steps.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@Cakes said:
I am not seeing what you are seeing, ovals look the same.
Btw that's a nice card!
Thanks. Looks at the two arrows I put on this card. The shift is at the bottom as you can see the gap. The white/yellow fills in when it should be black all the way around. A subtle difference and easy to overlook.
@JBrules said:
The oval has a shift to it. It is not the centering of the oval. Compare the oval on mine to the OP's. Look at the bottom of the oval on the bottom image and compare it to my Jim Brown and you should see the difference.
Good call, that is definitely an alignment issue. The fact that there is a 9 with that issue as well doesn’t change the fact the card has issues with registration.
@JBrules said:
The oval has a shift to it. It is not the centering of the oval. Compare the oval on mine to the OP's. Look at the bottom of the oval on the bottom image and compare it to my Jim Brown and you should see the difference.
Good call, that is definitely an alignment issue. The fact that there is a 9 with that issue as well doesn’t change the fact the card has issues with registration.
I do appreciate you explaining, I see it now. Thanks
In your determination has grading become stricter? My main point is I believe it has.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I feel mine is better than both of these 8.5's. Similar registration and/or alignment. My centering and color are better. It gets to be splitting hairs to hold my card back. Thanks.
Stunning card !! I think the registration is the reason for not getting the half grade... it has a large affect on eye appeal just like centering. The black ink spots on the front and chipping on the back is probably why it landed in an 8... the registration just negates the near-perfect centering. Congrats on such a great pull... epic cardboard right there!
Thanks for your inputs. It has helped me to hunt down multiple flaws on higher graded 58 Browns. Centering, tilt, black ink spots, alignment, registration, chipping etc. All the basic stuff. Seeing these issues with the higher graded versions make me appreciate my card and its condition even more. I once owned a POP 1 PSA 10 1971 Wilt Chamberlain that had fish eyes and print imperfections on front. I couldn't deal with the flaws like that on a 10 and sold it. That card always makes me appreciate cards like my 58 Brown and other special/tough vintage cards.
STOP the PRESSES....I just found the smoking gun. It did not get the 8.5 due to horrible 51-49 centering both ways. There it is. It may even be 52-48 on the reverse. I just can't live with the centering. LOL.
My thought on cards that get .5 grades comes down to three areas. This is what I look at when I send a card in for review.
1) Centering
2) Corners/Edges
3) Focus/Image registration
In order for an 8 to get an 8.5 it must have 9 qualities on 2 out 3 areas. To me the 58 Brown PSA 8 looks to have corners/edges that exceed the 8 standard and certainly the centering exceeds the 8 standards. So to me it comes down to the 3rd area. Is the Image focus/registration at least of 8 quality? In my opinion, if it is then it should be an 8.5. I have looked at several different 8.5's and this card looks great for the grade and certainly would not look out of place in a higher grade. Congrats Chris on owning one of the best looking Jim Brown rookie cards in any grade. Look forward to following your 76 rips looking for Walter Payton rookie.
FWIW I’m not arguing that the card is an 8 vs 8.5. While I understand the financial implications that half grade can have, variation across grades is full on inconsistent so this card being better then cards graded higher is pretty in line with grading. This is BAU and the best cards don’t always get the best grades.
That card a few years ago prob gets a 9. Get used to inconsistencies between grades because we now have three era’s of grading standards. Add in variance at the grader level and its a mess.
@JBrules - I am looking forward to the two 76 Cellos. No guarantees of course but good legitimate chances at Paytons. If Payton is there then condition kicks in and is a total crap shoot as we know for any rip. It will be fun no matter what because I have never opened a 76 Cello and will plan to share the results when the time comes. I'm pretty sure I have two 72 racks with Staubach potential and will open one for sure, maybe both. Also have this 72 Rack shown that should have a Staubach behind Mike McCoy (McCoy, Blanda, Staubach if memory serves me right) but I don't know, right now I am leaning to keep this particular one sealed because of the Staubach Dallas card on front.
Comments
@1951WheatiesPremium - you got me thinking. With the two unopened 76 FB cellos maybe I can pull off a Payton in each paw...hmmmm.....da Bears!!
Payton cellos in the paws of an actual bear? And the bear is named Ditka...
...ah, jeez, here it comes again...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I need to see some examples of this so called better oval on the Jim Brown rookies. Can someone please post an example? I don't ever recall seeing one, they are all way off centered, even the ones graded 8.5 and 9. I can post 20 plus links to current and former Jim Brown rookies and I have owned dozens, they all have the crappy oval.
If this card isn't an 8.5 you will not see one for 5 years.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I dont believe there are any centered ovals....my 8 looks the same as UFFDAHs
The oval has a shift to it. It is not the centering of the oval. Compare the oval on mine to the OP's. Look at the bottom of the oval on the bottom image and compare it to my Jim Brown and you should see the difference.
I am not seeing what you are seeing, ovals look the same.
Btw that's a nice card!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I think he’s talking about a curve of lightness in color (related to the printing) in the lower left corner where the oval that contains the image of Jim Brown meets the black.
I think that is also why the PSA 4 image has less blur; they must have overlaid the printing of brown in two steps.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@Cakes
Starts near tree line, ends near where O and W aboven the text Brown.
Lightness of printed color at the border.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Sorry can't be it. Thanks.
Thanks. Looks at the two arrows I put on this card. The shift is at the bottom as you can see the gap. The white/yellow fills in when it should be black all the way around. A subtle difference and easy to overlook.
@jbrules - not gonna fly. The 9 above has it and so does this 8.5
Good call, that is definitely an alignment issue. The fact that there is a 9 with that issue as well doesn’t change the fact the card has issues with registration.
I do appreciate you explaining, I see it now. Thanks
In your determination has grading become stricter? My main point is I believe it has.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I feel mine is better than both of these 8.5's. Similar registration and/or alignment. My centering and color are better. It gets to be splitting hairs to hold my card back. Thanks.
Stunning card
!! I think the registration is the reason for not getting the half grade... it has a large affect on eye appeal just like centering. The black ink spots on the front and chipping on the back is probably why it landed in an 8... the registration just negates the near-perfect centering. Congrats on such a great pull... epic cardboard right there!
Thanks for your inputs. It has helped me to hunt down multiple flaws on higher graded 58 Browns. Centering, tilt, black ink spots, alignment, registration, chipping etc. All the basic stuff. Seeing these issues with the higher graded versions make me appreciate my card and its condition even more. I once owned a POP 1 PSA 10 1971 Wilt Chamberlain that had fish eyes and print imperfections on front. I couldn't deal with the flaws like that on a 10 and sold it. That card always makes me appreciate cards like my 58 Brown and other special/tough vintage cards.
STOP the PRESSES....I just found the smoking gun. It did not get the 8.5 due to horrible 51-49 centering both ways. There it is. It may even be 52-48 on the reverse. I just can't live with the centering. LOL.
My thought on cards that get .5 grades comes down to three areas. This is what I look at when I send a card in for review.
1) Centering
2) Corners/Edges
3) Focus/Image registration
In order for an 8 to get an 8.5 it must have 9 qualities on 2 out 3 areas. To me the 58 Brown PSA 8 looks to have corners/edges that exceed the 8 standard and certainly the centering exceeds the 8 standards. So to me it comes down to the 3rd area. Is the Image focus/registration at least of 8 quality? In my opinion, if it is then it should be an 8.5. I have looked at several different 8.5's and this card looks great for the grade and certainly would not look out of place in a higher grade. Congrats Chris on owning one of the best looking Jim Brown rookie cards in any grade. Look forward to following your 76 rips looking for Walter Payton rookie.
FWIW I’m not arguing that the card is an 8 vs 8.5. While I understand the financial implications that half grade can have, variation across grades is full on inconsistent so this card being better then cards graded higher is pretty in line with grading. This is BAU and the best cards don’t always get the best grades.
That card a few years ago prob gets a 9. Get used to inconsistencies between grades because we now have three era’s of grading standards. Add in variance at the grader level and its a mess.
@JBrules - I am looking forward to the two 76 Cellos. No guarantees of course but good legitimate chances at Paytons. If Payton is there then condition kicks in and is a total crap shoot as we know for any rip. It will be fun no matter what because I have never opened a 76 Cello and will plan to share the results when the time comes. I'm pretty sure I have two 72 racks with Staubach potential and will open one for sure, maybe both. Also have this 72 Rack shown that should have a Staubach behind Mike McCoy (McCoy, Blanda, Staubach if memory serves me right) but I don't know, right now I am leaning to keep this particular one sealed because of the Staubach Dallas card on front.
If you decide to rip the 72's would love to see the Staubach's that you pull.
This as been a great thread BTW thanks .