Congrats UFFDAH.
PSA 8 high end for sure. I'm definitely disappointed you missed out on the 9.
This 8 would sell for a premium! Buy the card, not the holder
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
@shagrotn77 said:
I’m surprised we haven’t heard from the OP yet.
Chris is probably in disbelief by the grade....and upset. Given the high profile and news of the pull...there is a zero chance of receiving a bump on a review and cracking out is now discouraged by PSA. Bottom line is that it is a beautiful PSA-8. Chris should send to PWCC...it would probably receive a PSA-8 (PWCC-S). it would definitely increase the value...if Chris decides to sell.
@emar said:
Congrats UFFDAH.
PSA 8 high end for sure. I'm definitely disappointed you missed out on the 9.
This 8 would sell for a premium! Buy the card, not the holder
I thought it would be an 8.5, just like his other Brown that received a bump last year.
I guess he can ask for a review in 3 or 4 years if things hopefully get back to normal.
I am a firm believer that the grading standards have gotten very strict and IMHO this was a perfect example of a pack fresh card that confirms that. Getting a raw Jim Brown rookie to grade a 9 is almost impossible and I would be willing to bet there isn't a single Brown rookie that grades a 9 in the next 5 years. I think there are only 5 - 9's in existence.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Love the centering on UFFDAH’s (Chris) Brown rookie and it has great eye appeal. I agree that some of the 8’s above don’t look as nice to the eye, but 8’s have a pretty wide range low to high. His is a very high end 8 from a centering perspective and is almost perfect in that regard, and some of the other ones have nice attributes as well outside of centering. This card is notorious for being out of focus so that always gets scrutinized along with snow in the black, the oval being off, and print marks. That is probably what kept it from an 8.5, but this 8 in auction would bring 8.5 money IMO.
I hard for me to sit here from my perch and say the card should be graded higher. If there was a surface issue, it likely wouldn't show up in a scan. Whatever the case, this is one 8 with eye appeal through the stratosphere.
Joking aside, the card is amazing, the pull was amazing and the fact we are losing our mind over the grade says a lot about where the hobby is today. It's still the same card that was pulled (I guess that's still in the air based on the possible damage).
1) Congratulations, once again on the spectacular pull - most of us can only dream of that experience. Which leads to number two...
2) Thank you for sharing the experience with us all and allowing us to live vicariously through you. Your genuine joy and excitement translates well and I hope you remember the entire experience fondly.
Honestly, I’m not even sure how much the grade matters on that one anyway; how many PSA 8 Brown rookies could possibly come with a YouTube video?
Maybe make that video an NFT and you can sell that, keep both cards and buy an island.
Congrats, Chris!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
**The card is not dented, damaged or anything like that. It has arrived back to Heritage in Dallas and they have confirmed everything is TOTALLY FINE. Just got off the phone with them.
**
Will try to add some more update later. Scrambling at the office yesterday and today.
So here is an update. Forgive me if I repeat something I typed up above.
The Raw Card was shipped to Heritage in Dallas to Chris Ivy. He opened the package while we were on the phone and he really liked the card. It went into their safe while they worked on their latest auction/Catalog. Once they were caught up, the card was reviewed technically in house at Heritage by an experienced former grader. He didn't indicate any micro issues that I am aware of and in fact felt the card was an 8.5...Not a 9...but an 8.5 on the stronger side. The card then went to Southern California for Heritage to walk into PSA after PSA had been alerted. The card was hand delivered by Heritage to PSA on Wednesday of this week and I was told the grade would happen on Thursday. On Thursday after lunch I received a call from Heritage and I could tell right away he was bummed. He told me it was graded an 8. We were both bummed, frustrated and it was hard to understand. Even with registration not perfect we felt the 63 year old card "as a whole" deserved better than a straight 8 and we still feel that way. We know what other 8's, 8.5's and 9's look like. Fast forward the card is back in Dallas and below are some Heritage Scans for me to keep/share.
I am hands down keeping this card. To me it is the most special Jim Brown in the hobby not only due to its incredible condition etc. but also due to the provenance that backs it up. I pulled this Relic Masterpiece straight from a Cello Pack myself!! The impossible happened and I'll never forget it. To me its a PSA 10 when considered as a whole - a true 1 of 1.
What's in store for the future? Well, I have two 1972 Topps FB Racks that may contain Staubach Rookies, two 1976 Topps FB Cello Packs that likely contain Payton Rookies and a mish mash of other stuff in my to be opened stash so just need an occasion or "rainy day" to get the gumption up!!
@UFFDAH said:
So here is an update. Forgive me if I repeat something I typed up above.
The Raw Card was shipped to Heritage in Dallas to Chris Ivy. He opened the package while we were on the phone and he really liked the card. It went into their safe while they worked on their latest auction/Catalog. Once they were caught up, the card was reviewed technically in house at Heritage by an experienced former grader. He didn't indicate any micro issues that I am aware of and in fact felt the card was an 8.5...Not a 9...but an 8.5 on the stronger side. The card then went to Southern California for Heritage to walk into PSA after PSA had been alerted. The card was hand delivered by Heritage to PSA on Wednesday of this week and I was told the grade would happen on Thursday. On Thursday after lunch I received a call from Heritage and I could tell right away he was bummed. He told me it was graded an 8. We were both bummed, frustrated and it was hard to understand. Even with registration not perfect we felt the 63 year old card "as a whole" deserved better than a straight 8 and we still feel that way. We know what other 8's, 8.5's and 9's look like. Fast forward the card is back in Dallas and below are some Heritage Scans for me to keep/share.
I am hands down keeping this card. To me it is the most special Jim Brown in the hobby not only due to its incredible condition etc. but also due to the provenance that backs it up. I pulled this Relic Masterpiece straight from a Cello Pack myself!! The impossible happened and I'll never forget it. To me its a PSA 10 when considered as a whole - a true 1 of 1.
What's in store for the future? Well, I have two 1972 Topps FB Racks that may contain Staubach Rookies, two 1976 Topps FB Cello Packs that likely contain Payton Rookies and a mish mash of other stuff in my to be opened stash so just need an occasion or "rainy day" to get the gumption up!!
That’s awesome you’re keeping it. And it’s nicer than most of, if not all, the others shown in equal or higher grades.
@UFFDAH I think the fact that this card has some mild notoriety attached to it via this post and Joe's own post about this card will add so much value to this card to psa 8.5-9 money anyway. The fact that it is from a graded pack with video documentation of it all is incredible. Not to mention the fact that it clearly far more beautiful than those other cards shown. Congrats on the beautiful 1/1 like you mentioned.
Glad you're keeping it Chris!
IMO, the provenance, the video, this thread, and THE CARD would be worth so much more than cashing out.
Your card is one of the best pack pulls ever!
Amazing card. This is an 8,5 all day. Like many here, I am an disbelief that it didn't get an 8.5 (at minimum). Sometimes I feel as if it was a high profile 'Gary V' type person who was sending in, would we all be looking at an 8.5 right now? Tough to say. Either way, I'm glad your keeping it. If you plan to sell in the future, be sure you will get the 8.5 price for your card. Congrats on an amazing pull and thanks for taking us on the ride.
@Vagabond said:
Amazing card. This is an 8,5 all day. Like many here, I am an disbelief that it didn't get an 8.5 (at minimum). Sometimes I feel as if it was a high profile 'Gary V' type person who was sending in, would we all be looking at an 8.5 right now? Tough to say. Either way, I'm glad your keeping it. If you plan to sell in the future, be sure you will get the 8.5 price for your card. Congrats on an amazing pull and thanks for taking us on the ride.
Does it get any more high profile than hand delivered by Heritage? I'm not attempting to determine half grades from scans, but the idea that the OP got hurt because he wasn't a big enough name is preposterous.
Gorgeous card and overall congrats are in order. Have the standards changed in the past year or two- "YES" absolutely no doubt. The question is why?? Is it graders looking at 2020 cards all day and every now and then having to grade vintage?? Again, I don't know. PSA is obviously going through a lot of stuff right now. Both good and very challenging. It's the incredibly challenging part is what they need to figure out. Having 10 million cards to grade is a good problem to have overall; but also a significant problem for sure. How will they weather this storm?? I have no idea. It's unprecedented. UFFDAH's card is terrific and based upon only it's own merits I believe graded correctly especially with Joe saying surface imperfections. While we naturally do it and do it all the time, unfortunately you can't compare examples to each other. Maybe all of the other examples shown are basically overgraded ?? Either way that Brown rookie is a stunner and seriously strong for the grade.
If the card is an 8, then it is an 8.5. From all the literature PSA has created around the purpose of half grades, it seems to me that this Jim Brown rookie would be the perfect example.
Half grades have been applied so haphazardly. 300 card orders with zero half grades, and then 50 card orders with 10 half grades. Hard to understand.
@handyman said:
Maybe when Joe said it was not graded with digital technology he’s saying it could be reviewed once that is in place?
I took it more as “We have the physical card in hand and are not grading a digital scan (like people on CU Forums).
But I could be wrong...wouldn’t be the first time. 😂
No, what Joe said in reply to the tweet reply was that HE personally looked at the card in person, and not via a digital image that could have been sent to him. Nothing is referring to AI or digital imaging in regards to the grade it got or could get in the future per se.
I am sure that card was not graded by graders that had been looking at modern all day long. That card had a history and was , (is ) an iconic vintage card. I am sure it was looked at, discussed , and debated among many at PSA. PSA (Joe) will always say , "there are high end 8s and low end 8s", and high end 9s and low end 9s. But the half grade was established to separate the High end 8 from the low end 8 . That card is at least an 8.5, and no one would have complained if it was a 9.(even someone buying in the future) The centering and eye appeal alone would bump to 8.5 NO way you can ask for a review any time soon. It is too famous and well known card. here and at PSA.
The centering and eye appeal alone would bump to 8.5 NO way you can ask for a review any time soon. It is too famous and well known card. here and at PSA.
that being said, I don't see how this card could ever bump. I know if I am the owner of it and I see down the road after I sold it that it bumped to a 8.5 or a 9 by the next owner that I would be insanely upset. That would get super negative attention focused at PSA if that were to happen. I sort of think it was in their best interest to give this a 9, it would generate some big time press if it were to go to auction. The fact that Joe says personally that it is an 8, I think it is an 8. But again, with the provenance this card has, I think it is may more valuable than a psa 8.
I have looked at a lot of Jim Brown rookies over the last 20 years, most online but also many in person. I have also owned 3 or 4 including 2 PSA 7's and before the price increase was actively looking at PSA 8's to add one to my collection. With all of that said unless I have missed something the grading standards have gotten stricter since the OP's other Jim Brown rookie bumped from an 8 to an 8.5 in 2020 and that just doesn't sit well with me.
I used to love taking part in the group buys and rips and getting lucky on high quality, pack fresh examples but now I just give up. If you pull that nice of an example directly from pack for it to grade a PSA 8 is just depressing and takes the wind out of my sails. 8.5 all the way!
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Epic story and epic card. Must keep one with a story such as this. Fellow collectors can see it trounces other 8s, which matters most. The card speaks for itself, plus the provenance. I only have two vintage card I can trace to the pack. Congrats!
@Frozencaribou said:
If the card is an 8, then it is an 8.5. From all the literature PSA has created around the purpose of half grades, it seems to me that this Jim Brown rookie would be the perfect example.
Half grades have been applied so haphazardly. 300 card orders with zero half grades, and then 50 card orders with 10 half grades. Hard to understand.
If I were to advertise the sale of a currently graded card, I would be sure to note: "New holder and new holder grading".
@KendallCat said:
Love the centering on UFFDAH’s (Chris) Brown rookie and it has great eye appeal. I agree that some of the 8’s above don’t look as nice to the eye, but 8’s have a pretty wide range low to high. His is a very high end 8 from a centering perspective and is almost perfect in that regard, and some of the other ones have nice attributes as well outside of centering. This card is notorious for being out of focus so that always gets scrutinized along with snow in the black, the oval being off, and print marks. That is probably what kept it from an 8.5, but this 8 in auction would bring 8.5 money IMO.
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Chris- first off- congrats on the card pull !!! Personally pulling such a great card always attaches additional emotional attachment , and is what makes us "collectors". Second- get that card away from any source of light and bury it deep in a safety deposit box . The fact you were able to share the excitement with your wife- priceless Was glad to see in your follow up posts your keeping it.
KC- love that professional assessment. Raw, simple, eloquent and precise in its nature - and honest. Stated the exact reasons it graded how it did. Those 3 things are always the first 3 things many look for in a Brown rookie. Two of those are off ( out of focus / oval ) on this card- and that kills Mint 9 as far as the grading standards that should be in place on that card are concerned. We don't always hear what we want to hear as collectors. Sometimes we get hammered with an unexpected result and the blunt honesty hits us rather harshly and we are disappointed. We may not like all the grades we see when stuff comes back, yet after initial "emotional" disappointments are gotten over, if we are honest with ourselves, we can generally come to grips with grades we sometimes get that are disappointing. May take some time - but it does happen.
This card is one of the hobbies MT Rushmore cards and gets a lot of scrutiny. It's pros/cons have to stand on their own in the end. How we think it "should" grade has nothing to do with its professional assessment. On a personal level- I wouldn't spend one extra nickel trying to bump as focus and oval placements will not change so why bother ??
What I like most about your statement KC is the " this 8 would bring 8.5 $$ at auction". Yes - it would. For reasons many other collectors seem to like including provenance.
Great pull again Chris and we all have enjoyed watching its progress- me especially !!
Looking forward to your other 'breaks" !!!
Staubach in particular as that is another tough pull- typically off center with similar issues.
@KendallCat said:
Love the centering on UFFDAH’s (Chris) Brown rookie and it has great eye appeal. I agree that some of the 8’s above don’t look as nice to the eye, but 8’s have a pretty wide range low to high. His is a very high end 8 from a centering perspective and is almost perfect in that regard, and some of the other ones have nice attributes as well outside of centering. This card is notorious for being out of focus so that always gets scrutinized along with snow in the black, the oval being off, and print marks. That is probably what kept it from an 8.5, but this 8 in auction would bring 8.5 money IMO.
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Chris- first off- congrats on the card pull !!! Personally pulling such a great card always attaches additional emotional attachment , and is what makes us "collectors". Second- get that card away from any source of light and bury it deep in a safety deposit box . The fact you were able to share the excitement with your wife- priceless Was glad to see in your follow up posts your keeping it.
KC- love that professional assessment. Raw, simple, eloquent and precise in its nature - and honest. Stated the exact reasons it graded how it did. Those 3 things are always the first 3 things many look for in a Brown rookie. Two of those are off ( out of focus / oval ) on this card- and that kills Mint 9 as far as the grading standards that should be in place on that card are concerned. We don't always hear what we want to hear as collectors. Sometimes we get hammered with an unexpected result and the blunt honesty hits us rather harshly and we are disappointed. We may not like all the grades we see when stuff comes back, yet after initial "emotional" disappointments are gotten over, if we are honest with ourselves, we can generally come to grips with grades we sometimes get that are disappointing. May take some time - but it does happen.
This card is one of the hobbies MT Rushmore cards and gets a lot of scrutiny. It's pros/cons have to stand on their own in the end. How we think it "should" grade has nothing to do with its professional assessment. On a personal level- I wouldn't spend one extra nickel trying to bump as focus and oval placements will not change so why bother ??
What I like most about your statement KC is the " this 8 would bring 8.5 $$ at auction". Yes - it would. For reasons many other collectors seem to like including provenance.
Jeff - thank you for the kind words, and funny thing is Keith Jr loves Jim Brown RC’s - he is only 16 but only collects vintage. When he looks at a Brown RC he already knows to check the focus first. I wish I had his eyes because without a loupe he can see every minute spec and flaw in a card. Sometimes I have to tell him to not be too critical since every card has something wrong 😄
I showed him the scan of this one and he did not say a peep which meant he really liked it. I agree with his assessment, and I like the overall appearance and eye appeal of UFFDAH’s example over the PSA 9 above. I can see where it should be an 8.5 as well as an 8, and my previous comments were hopefully not construed as taking a shot at the card. We always hear buy the holder and not the card, and this is a great example of that advice. Whether it is an 8 or an 8.5 where are you going to find a Brown rookie that looks like this example in regards to centering and eye appeal? That should say enough.
It is a true gem and I am happy for you. I think it is an 8.5. In my experience, most PSA graders simply don't or won't give out half grades. They are a joke to me. PSA is inconsistent at best and in this case, wrong. The centering is .5 worthy no matter what 'taking my hacks' says about it.
We always hear buy the holder and not the card, and this is a great example of that advice. Whether it is an 8 or an 8.5 where are you going to find a Brown rookie that looks like this example in regards to centering and eye appeal? That should say enough.
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I'm a realist. And honest as they come- sometimes that honesty comes out rather coldly. Apologies to Chris if I seemed to come off that way wasn't the intent. I love the provenance and - who it happened to alone makes me happy to see.
Understood on the quoted above part - the first thought that came into my head after viewing the video also was similar- let me just sit here and admire the fact another well liked collector was able to pull such a great example . I just wanted to get thru to the "it should have graded higher" crowd. No = it shouldn't have. Its a cold , hard assessment of its merits both good and bad- one stated so quite well in your initial assessment ( my personal mantra #1- cold assessment of true condition) . What you stated above was my own mantra # 2- buy the card and not the holder.
Quite a few people would love to own the card. On provenance alone it would never leave my own PC if I pulled one. Or at least until I retired/died and heirs could sell it then.
Its not a knock on the card itself- its another viewpoint on the card's current grade = stated rather coldly.
Sometimes we don't like hearing that side of things. I try and do it softly- sometimes it comes out negative.
But I also believe in educating the new gen there will always be two sides to every coin.
Emotions got nothing to do with grading levels. Cold hard facts. They are defined and are supposed to be followed. It checked off 2 major no no and that's an 8. It is a high end 8. I just don't agree on the 8.5 high crowd . A better oval- yes I can ignore the print marks and focus. No way a 9 with that focus- sorry 8 all day long and twice on Sunday. I may not like it but reality says that's the standard. Now are there prior graded cards not as harshly graded ? Yes. Which is why this will garner 8.5 money easily.
Hope that explains my side of things-
Jeff
p.s. I'm not always awake during the day I work graves ( 1am-9amPST) hence why I sometimes post so late.
We always hear buy the holder and not the card, and this is a great example of that advice. Whether it is an 8 or an 8.5 where are you going to find a Brown rookie that looks like this example in regards to centering and eye appeal? That should say enough.
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I'm a realist. And honest as they come- sometimes that honesty comes out rather coldly. Apologies to Chris if I seemed to come off that way wasn't the intent. I love the provenance and - who it happened to alone makes me happy to see.
Understood on the quoted above part - the first thought that came into my head after viewing the video also was similar- let me just sit here and admire the fact another well liked collector was able to pull such a great example . I just wanted to get thru to the "it should have graded higher" crowd. No = it shouldn't have. Its a cold , hard assessment of its merits both good and bad- one stated so quite well in your initial assessment ( my personal mantra #1- cold assessment of true condition) . What you stated above was my own mantra # 2- buy the card and not the holder.
Quite a few people would love to own the card. On provenance alone it would never leave my own PC if I pulled one. Or at least until I retired/died and heirs could sell it then.
Its not a knock on the card itself- its another viewpoint on the card's current grade = stated rather coldly.
Sometimes we don't like hearing that side of things. I try and do it softly- sometimes it comes out negative.
But I also believe in educating the new gen there will always be two sides to every coin.
Emotions got nothing to do with grading levels. Cold hard facts. They are defined and are supposed to be followed. It checked off 2 major no no and that's an 8. It is a high end 8. I just don't agree on the 8.5 high crowd . A better oval- yes I can ignore the print marks and focus. No way a 9 with that focus- sorry 8 all day long and twice on Sunday. I may not like it but reality says that's the standard. Now are there prior graded cards not as harshly graded ? Yes. Which is why this will garner 8.5 money easily. cor
Hope that explains my side of things-
Jeff
p.s. I'm not always awake during the day I work graves ( 1am-9amPST) hence why I sometimes post so late.
I get your point(s) and think they are valid, But, they address why this card is not a 9. They really don't hit the mark on the .5 debate. Is this not a "high-end" 8? Truly an honest question. My answer is YES it is. And, if as you suggest (likely with veracity) that PSA is finally living up to their own standards...I call BS on them. Why were they not prior? the answer is money.
Now with a huge demand, they're gonna change the game? Unethical and unfair to those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars getting used to the "old" game. Typical corporate, P&L based BS. Don't get me wrong, I am all for capitalism Apple Pie, and Abner Doubleday. You just don't change the rules mid-stream. That is showing total disregard for your customer base (especially vintage, etc.). In the consulting world, they say you can pick two of three options (i.e., 2/3)...speed, quality, or price. PSA is now missing on all of them.
Better? I'll just leave this thread but do feel this card got the royal PSA screw job. I GUARANTEE changing standards have just recently changed and it has cost me thousands of dollars. It's imaginary money any how Just like PSA grading standards.
@bobbybakeriv said:
Better? I'll just leave this thread but do feel this card got the royal PSA screw job. I GUARANTEE changing standards have just recently changed and it has cost me thousands of dollars. It's imaginary money any how Just like PSA grading standards.
I think everyone can empathize with you in the sense that there’s a lot of frustration going around right now for a myriad of reasons.
I also think it’s an important thread and I think there’s a lot of latitude being given to discuss the topic.
I’ll also concede the point that without the card in hand - which on that list is two Chris’s and PSA, it seems, and they are the only ones, which is both crazy and amazing - like mid nineties Aerosmith! - we are at a serious disadvantage in evaluating the card.
I’m not any type of card expert; however, in addition, many of the guys that do play in the high end vintage pool that hang out here on CU seem to be ok with this assessment and that carries some weight - with me, anyway.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I'll stick with the 8.5 assessment. I have seen the card "in hand". 3 high ups at Heritage have seen the card and 8.5 is their assessment. One is a former grader and studied it in detail as if it was being graded. Shared the card on a vintage unopened FB group and a majority at 8.5 with some at 9. One collector had experience of owning an 8.5 at one time quoting "I had an 8.5 years ago and honestly yours is way better then mine". The card looks out of place in an 8 holder and deserved the half grade bump and I and many others will stick with that. Thanks.
Comments
Congrats UFFDAH.
PSA 8 high end for sure. I'm definitely disappointed you missed out on the 9.
This 8 would sell for a premium! Buy the card, not the holder
I’m surprised we haven’t heard from the OP yet.
If that case ding is there that absolutely stinks.
Chris is probably in disbelief by the grade....and upset. Given the high profile and news of the pull...there is a zero chance of receiving a bump on a review and cracking out is now discouraged by PSA. Bottom line is that it is a beautiful PSA-8. Chris should send to PWCC...it would probably receive a PSA-8 (PWCC-S). it would definitely increase the value...if Chris decides to sell.
I thought it would be an 8.5, just like his other Brown that received a bump last year.
I guess he can ask for a review in 3 or 4 years if things hopefully get back to normal.
I am a firm believer that the grading standards have gotten very strict and IMHO this was a perfect example of a pack fresh card that confirms that. Getting a raw Jim Brown rookie to grade a 9 is almost impossible and I would be willing to bet there isn't a single Brown rookie that grades a 9 in the next 5 years. I think there are only 5 - 9's in existence.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Love the centering on UFFDAH’s (Chris) Brown rookie and it has great eye appeal. I agree that some of the 8’s above don’t look as nice to the eye, but 8’s have a pretty wide range low to high. His is a very high end 8 from a centering perspective and is almost perfect in that regard, and some of the other ones have nice attributes as well outside of centering. This card is notorious for being out of focus so that always gets scrutinized along with snow in the black, the oval being off, and print marks. That is probably what kept it from an 8.5, but this 8 in auction would bring 8.5 money IMO.
I hard for me to sit here from my perch and say the card should be graded higher. If there was a surface issue, it likely wouldn't show up in a scan. Whatever the case, this is one 8 with eye appeal through the stratosphere.
I'd send it to PWCC for restoration.
Joking aside, the card is amazing, the pull was amazing and the fact we are losing our mind over the grade says a lot about where the hobby is today. It's still the same card that was pulled (I guess that's still in the air based on the possible damage).
@UFFDAH
TWO THINGS:
1) Congratulations, once again on the spectacular pull - most of us can only dream of that experience. Which leads to number two...
2) Thank you for sharing the experience with us all and allowing us to live vicariously through you. Your genuine joy and excitement translates well and I hope you remember the entire experience fondly.
Honestly, I’m not even sure how much the grade matters on that one anyway; how many PSA 8 Brown rookies could possibly come with a YouTube video?
Maybe make that video an NFT and you can sell that, keep both cards and buy an island.
Congrats, Chris!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
**The card is not dented, damaged or anything like that. It has arrived back to Heritage in Dallas and they have confirmed everything is TOTALLY FINE. Just got off the phone with them.
**
Will try to add some more update later. Scrambling at the office yesterday and today.
Thanks.
So here is an update. Forgive me if I repeat something I typed up above.
The Raw Card was shipped to Heritage in Dallas to Chris Ivy. He opened the package while we were on the phone and he really liked the card. It went into their safe while they worked on their latest auction/Catalog. Once they were caught up, the card was reviewed technically in house at Heritage by an experienced former grader. He didn't indicate any micro issues that I am aware of and in fact felt the card was an 8.5...Not a 9...but an 8.5 on the stronger side. The card then went to Southern California for Heritage to walk into PSA after PSA had been alerted. The card was hand delivered by Heritage to PSA on Wednesday of this week and I was told the grade would happen on Thursday. On Thursday after lunch I received a call from Heritage and I could tell right away he was bummed. He told me it was graded an 8. We were both bummed, frustrated and it was hard to understand. Even with registration not perfect we felt the 63 year old card "as a whole" deserved better than a straight 8 and we still feel that way. We know what other 8's, 8.5's and 9's look like. Fast forward the card is back in Dallas and below are some Heritage Scans for me to keep/share.
I am hands down keeping this card. To me it is the most special Jim Brown in the hobby not only due to its incredible condition etc. but also due to the provenance that backs it up. I pulled this Relic Masterpiece straight from a Cello Pack myself!! The impossible happened and I'll never forget it. To me its a PSA 10 when considered as a whole - a true 1 of 1.
What's in store for the future? Well, I have two 1972 Topps FB Racks that may contain Staubach Rookies, two 1976 Topps FB Cello Packs that likely contain Payton Rookies and a mish mash of other stuff in my to be opened stash so just need an occasion or "rainy day" to get the gumption up!!
Chris...
You should have it labeled "from 1958 cello pack on the date you opened it"...beautiful card and deserving a higher grade.
That’s awesome you’re keeping it. And it’s nicer than most of, if not all, the others shown in equal or higher grades.
@UFFDAH I think the fact that this card has some mild notoriety attached to it via this post and Joe's own post about this card will add so much value to this card to psa 8.5-9 money anyway. The fact that it is from a graded pack with video documentation of it all is incredible. Not to mention the fact that it clearly far more beautiful than those other cards shown. Congrats on the beautiful 1/1 like you mentioned.
Absolute stunner and perhaps one of the greatest experiences to ever have being a collector! I could watch that video all day!
I can’t believe they couldn’t give it a half grade up. I mean, sheesh.
Glad you're keeping it Chris!
IMO, the provenance, the video, this thread, and THE CARD would be worth so much more than cashing out.
Your card is one of the best pack pulls ever!
Best PSA 8 Jim Brown rookie I have ever seen. Congrats and awesome your keeping the card and not cashing in on it!
Beautiful card sir!!!
Heritage sold a PSA 8 2 months ago for $60,000 and it wasn't very well centered.
UFFDAH strikes again!!!!! Only centered card in the pack. Amazing.
That is one of the finest examples of that card on Earth. Congrats Buddy.
From the beginning this been a fun thread to watch. Thanks for letting us live vicariously throughout your adventure.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Amazing card. This is an 8,5 all day. Like many here, I am an disbelief that it didn't get an 8.5 (at minimum). Sometimes I feel as if it was a high profile 'Gary V' type person who was sending in, would we all be looking at an 8.5 right now? Tough to say. Either way, I'm glad your keeping it. If you plan to sell in the future, be sure you will get the 8.5 price for your card. Congrats on an amazing pull and thanks for taking us on the ride.
Does it get any more high profile than hand delivered by Heritage? I'm not attempting to determine half grades from scans, but the idea that the OP got hurt because he wasn't a big enough name is preposterous.
Gorgeous card and overall congrats are in order. Have the standards changed in the past year or two- "YES" absolutely no doubt. The question is why?? Is it graders looking at 2020 cards all day and every now and then having to grade vintage?? Again, I don't know. PSA is obviously going through a lot of stuff right now. Both good and very challenging. It's the incredibly challenging part is what they need to figure out. Having 10 million cards to grade is a good problem to have overall; but also a significant problem for sure. How will they weather this storm?? I have no idea. It's unprecedented. UFFDAH's card is terrific and based upon only it's own merits I believe graded correctly especially with Joe saying surface imperfections. While we naturally do it and do it all the time, unfortunately you can't compare examples to each other. Maybe all of the other examples shown are basically overgraded ?? Either way that Brown rookie is a stunner and seriously strong for the grade.
Maybe when Joe said it was not graded with digital technology he’s saying it could be reviewed once that is in place?
I took it more as “We have the physical card in hand and are not grading a digital scan (like people on CU Forums).
But I could be wrong...wouldn’t be the first time. 😂
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Ahh gotcha makes more sense
If the card is an 8, then it is an 8.5. From all the literature PSA has created around the purpose of half grades, it seems to me that this Jim Brown rookie would be the perfect example.
Half grades have been applied so haphazardly. 300 card orders with zero half grades, and then 50 card orders with 10 half grades. Hard to understand.
No, what Joe said in reply to the tweet reply was that HE personally looked at the card in person, and not via a digital image that could have been sent to him. Nothing is referring to AI or digital imaging in regards to the grade it got or could get in the future per se.
I am sure that card was not graded by graders that had been looking at modern all day long. That card had a history and was , (is ) an iconic vintage card. I am sure it was looked at, discussed , and debated among many at PSA. PSA (Joe) will always say , "there are high end 8s and low end 8s", and high end 9s and low end 9s. But the half grade was established to separate the High end 8 from the low end 8 . That card is at least an 8.5, and no one would have complained if it was a 9.(even someone buying in the future) The centering and eye appeal alone would bump to 8.5 NO way you can ask for a review any time soon. It is too famous and well known card. here and at PSA.
The centering and eye appeal alone would bump to 8.5 NO way you can ask for a review any time soon. It is too famous and well known card. here and at PSA.
that being said, I don't see how this card could ever bump. I know if I am the owner of it and I see down the road after I sold it that it bumped to a 8.5 or a 9 by the next owner that I would be insanely upset. That would get super negative attention focused at PSA if that were to happen. I sort of think it was in their best interest to give this a 9, it would generate some big time press if it were to go to auction. The fact that Joe says personally that it is an 8, I think it is an 8. But again, with the provenance this card has, I think it is may more valuable than a psa 8.
Says it all.
Thanks!! Glad you are back posting and sharing. Hope you are well!!
I have looked at a lot of Jim Brown rookies over the last 20 years, most online but also many in person. I have also owned 3 or 4 including 2 PSA 7's and before the price increase was actively looking at PSA 8's to add one to my collection. With all of that said unless I have missed something the grading standards have gotten stricter since the OP's other Jim Brown rookie bumped from an 8 to an 8.5 in 2020 and that just doesn't sit well with me.
I used to love taking part in the group buys and rips and getting lucky on high quality, pack fresh examples but now I just give up. If you pull that nice of an example directly from pack for it to grade a PSA 8 is just depressing and takes the wind out of my sails. 8.5 all the way!
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Epic story and epic card. Must keep one with a story such as this. Fellow collectors can see it trounces other 8s, which matters most. The card speaks for itself, plus the provenance. I only have two vintage card I can trace to the pack. Congrats!
Instagram: mattyc_collection
If I were to advertise the sale of a currently graded card, I would be sure to note: "New holder and new holder grading".
My guess is a card with this much attention was probably graded by Reza and not some random grader in the grading room.
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Chris- first off- congrats on the card pull !!! Personally pulling such a great card always attaches additional emotional attachment , and is what makes us "collectors". Second- get that card away from any source of light and bury it deep in a safety deposit box . The fact you were able to share the excitement with your wife- priceless
Was glad to see in your follow up posts your keeping it.
KC- love that professional assessment. Raw, simple, eloquent and precise in its nature - and honest. Stated the exact reasons it graded how it did. Those 3 things are always the first 3 things many look for in a Brown rookie. Two of those are off ( out of focus / oval ) on this card- and that kills Mint 9 as far as the grading standards that should be in place on that card are concerned. We don't always hear what we want to hear as collectors. Sometimes we get hammered with an unexpected result and the blunt honesty hits us rather harshly and we are disappointed. We may not like all the grades we see when stuff comes back, yet after initial "emotional" disappointments are gotten over, if we are honest with ourselves, we can generally come to grips with grades we sometimes get that are disappointing. May take some time - but it does happen.
This card is one of the hobbies MT Rushmore cards and gets a lot of scrutiny. It's pros/cons have to stand on their own in the end. How we think it "should" grade has nothing to do with its professional assessment. On a personal level- I wouldn't spend one extra nickel trying to bump as focus and oval placements will not change so why bother ??
What I like most about your statement KC is the " this 8 would bring 8.5 $$ at auction". Yes - it would. For reasons many other collectors seem to like including provenance.
Great pull again Chris and we all have enjoyed watching its progress- me especially !!
Looking forward to your other 'breaks" !!!
Staubach in particular as that is another tough pull- typically off center with similar issues.
Jeff - thank you for the kind words, and funny thing is Keith Jr loves Jim Brown RC’s - he is only 16 but only collects vintage. When he looks at a Brown RC he already knows to check the focus first. I wish I had his eyes because without a loupe he can see every minute spec and flaw in a card. Sometimes I have to tell him to not be too critical since every card has something wrong 😄
I showed him the scan of this one and he did not say a peep which meant he really liked it. I agree with his assessment, and I like the overall appearance and eye appeal of UFFDAH’s example over the PSA 9 above. I can see where it should be an 8.5 as well as an 8, and my previous comments were hopefully not construed as taking a shot at the card. We always hear buy the holder and not the card, and this is a great example of that advice. Whether it is an 8 or an 8.5 where are you going to find a Brown rookie that looks like this example in regards to centering and eye appeal? That should say enough.
It is a true gem and I am happy for you. I think it is an 8.5. In my experience, most PSA graders simply don't or won't give out half grades. They are a joke to me. PSA is inconsistent at best and in this case, wrong. The centering is .5 worthy no matter what 'taking my hacks' says about it.
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I'm a realist. And honest as they come- sometimes that honesty comes out rather coldly. Apologies to Chris if I seemed to come off that way wasn't the intent. I love the provenance and - who it happened to alone makes me happy to see.
Understood on the quoted above part - the first thought that came into my head after viewing the video also was similar- let me just sit here and admire the fact another well liked collector was able to pull such a great example . I just wanted to get thru to the "it should have graded higher" crowd. No = it shouldn't have. Its a cold , hard assessment of its merits both good and bad- one stated so quite well in your initial assessment ( my personal mantra #1- cold assessment of true condition) . What you stated above was my own mantra # 2- buy the card and not the holder.
Quite a few people would love to own the card. On provenance alone it would never leave my own PC if I pulled one. Or at least until I retired/died and heirs could sell it then.
Its not a knock on the card itself- its another viewpoint on the card's current grade = stated rather coldly.
Sometimes we don't like hearing that side of things. I try and do it softly- sometimes it comes out negative.
But I also believe in educating the new gen there will always be two sides to every coin.
Emotions got nothing to do with grading levels. Cold hard facts. They are defined and are supposed to be followed. It checked off 2 major no no and that's an 8. It is a high end 8. I just don't agree on the 8.5 high crowd . A better oval- yes I can ignore the print marks and focus. No way a 9 with that focus- sorry 8 all day long and twice on Sunday. I may not like it but reality says that's the standard. Now are there prior graded cards not as harshly graded ? Yes. Which is why this will garner 8.5 money easily.
Hope that explains my side of things-
Jeff
p.s. I'm not always awake during the day I work graves ( 1am-9amPST) hence why I sometimes post so late.
I get your point(s) and think they are valid, But, they address why this card is not a 9. They really don't hit the mark on the .5 debate. Is this not a "high-end" 8? Truly an honest question. My answer is YES it is. And, if as you suggest (likely with veracity) that PSA is finally living up to their own standards...I call BS on them. Why were they not prior? the answer is money.
Now with a huge demand, they're gonna change the game? Unethical and unfair to those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars getting used to the "old" game. Typical corporate, P&L based BS. Don't get me wrong, I am all for capitalism Apple Pie, and Abner Doubleday. You just don't change the rules mid-stream. That is showing total disregard for your customer base (especially vintage, etc.). In the consulting world, they say you can pick two of three options (i.e., 2/3)...speed, quality, or price. PSA is now missing on all of them.
This is a really good and historic thread. Your comments are honest but harsh.
Please edit the above so as to not have this thread disappear?
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Better? I'll just leave this thread but do feel this card got the royal PSA screw job. I GUARANTEE changing standards have just recently changed and it has cost me thousands of dollars. It's imaginary money any how Just like PSA grading standards.
I think everyone can empathize with you in the sense that there’s a lot of frustration going around right now for a myriad of reasons.
I also think it’s an important thread and I think there’s a lot of latitude being given to discuss the topic.
I’ll also concede the point that without the card in hand - which on that list is two Chris’s and PSA, it seems, and they are the only ones, which is both crazy and amazing - like mid nineties Aerosmith! - we are at a serious disadvantage in evaluating the card.
I’m not any type of card expert; however, in addition, many of the guys that do play in the high end vintage pool that hang out here on CU seem to be ok with this assessment and that carries some weight - with me, anyway.
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OK man, whatever you say. I misunderstood you.
I'll stick with the 8.5 assessment. I have seen the card "in hand". 3 high ups at Heritage have seen the card and 8.5 is their assessment. One is a former grader and studied it in detail as if it was being graded. Shared the card on a vintage unopened FB group and a majority at 8.5 with some at 9. One collector had experience of owning an 8.5 at one time quoting "I had an 8.5 years ago and honestly yours is way better then mine". The card looks out of place in an 8 holder and deserved the half grade bump and I and many others will stick with that. Thanks.
PSA giveth, and PSA taketh away.
@UFFDAH
Count me in “thinks it’s an 8.5 camp”, as well, but my opinion isn’t worth much. Hence, my original Bill Murray post.
What I would like is a picture of the bear with a Jimmy Brown in each paw, if you take requests.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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