ANA Dealer Day Replaces PNG Day, but NO COLLECTORS allowed?

MrEureka

This year, there will be no PNG Day at the ANA World’s Fair of Money. Instead, there will be a "Dealer Day".

From the ANA website:

"Tables are available to ANA member-dealers for $250 each, which includes 2 personnel per table (additional personnel can be added for $125 each).
Purchase of a World’s Fair of Money table is required to have a Dealer Day table.
A resale certificate, federal tax ID or tax license is required to purchase a table or gain admission to Dealer Day.
Admission is $125 at the door for non-table holders. (A VIP package that also includes early admission to the World’s Fair of Money is available
for $225.)
Representatives from NGC, the ANA’s official grading service, will be on-site, as will PCGS. (On-site grading will not be available.)
Auction lots viewing for World’s Fair of Money auctions by Heritage Auctions and Stack’s Bowers Galleries will be open.
The one-day show is NOT open to the general public."

I'm confused. I think I understand the part about cutting off PNG. More money for ANA, and they probably really do need it. And I understand the part about charging $125 for admission. Again, more money for ANA. But what I don't understand is why collectors are not being allowed to buy the same $125 admission ticket. There must be a reason. Maybe someone here can explain.

Justacommeman

My head hurts

MFeld

While there are specific requirements for purchase of the $125 admission ticket, they don’t automatically exclude collectors.

“A resale certificate, federal tax ID or tax license is required to purchase a table or gain admission to Dealer Day.
Admission is $125 at the door for non-table holders.”

MrEureka

@MFeld said:
While there are specific requirements for purchase of the $125 admission ticket, they don’t automatically exclude collectors.

“A resale certificate, federal tax ID or tax license is required to purchase a table or gain admission to Dealer Day.
Admission is $125 at the door for non-table holders.”

True. The rules only exclude MOST collectors.

Zoins

Did PNG not pay their annual sponsorship fee?

2ndCharter

More money for ANA, and they probably really do need it.

Do some housecleaning of the numerous multiples they have had donated to them and they'll have more money than they know what to do with.

RYK

@MFeld said:
While there are specific requirements for purchase of the $125 admission ticket, they don’t automatically exclude collectors.

“A resale certificate, federal tax ID or tax license is required to purchase a table or gain admission to Dealer Day.
Admission is $125 at the door for non-table holders.”

I saw that immediately. I have a medical consulting side business (and tax id), so I can buy the entry ticket. It only excludes collectors without an EIN (I daresay most of them.)

But come on, everyday is dealer day. Give the coin-starved collecting public a friggin' break!

Lakesammman

Still no bones being thrown to ANA Life Members ........no need to appease them - we already have their money.

Zoins

@Lakesammman said:
Still no bones being thrown to ANA Life Members ........no need to appease them - we already have their money.

They were supposed to create a Collectors Committee a while back.

pruebas

So much for the nation’s coin club.

Typical tone deaf move I would expect of them.

Tibor

@2ndCharter said:
More money for ANA, and they probably really do need it.

Do some housecleaning of the numerous multiples they have had donated to them and they'll have more money than they know what to do with.

I mentioned this at both the Denver ANA and the recent Atlanta ANA and I was told that they had
been doing that for several years. With the "contract" that they have with NGC, you would think
that those coins would be slabbed with the ANA provenance. I remember several years ago that
each month in the "Numismatist" they would publish a list of coins from different series that
they were still missing or would like to upgrade.

Kurisu

I'm not involved with PNG but someone doesn't sound very happy... http://news.coinupdate.com/statement-about-ana-dealer-day-by-richard-weaver-professional-numismatists-guild-president/

Namvet69

I don't know why the ANA would exclude a complementary numismatic player from a major event. Good for PNG for sharing the elements of the exclusion and bad for the ANA for creating division in a hobby that needs inclusion. IMO. Peace Roy

ricko

Seems like the ANA is becoming a tad elitist..... Exclusion is not good.... Cheers, RickO

Boosibri

@Lakesammman said:
Still no bones being thrown to ANA Life Members ........no need to appease them - we already have their money.

One reason why I refuse to be a life member of anything. Imagine signing up to be a life member of the Republican party 6 years ago. Yikes

MrEureka

@ricko said:
Seems like the ANA is becoming a tad elitist..... Exclusion is not good.... Cheers, RickO

I'd support a $125 early bird fee. Actually, I think $200 would be fine if the general public can't get in until the next day. The ANA can put that money to good use. I just don't understand why earlybirds have to be dealers. But I could easily be missing something. Waiting for an explanation.

As for PNG, I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing for them. PNG Days are nowhere near as useful as they were "back in the day", and I won't miss them in the least. Some new approach is long overdue.

astrorat

Don't like the decisions appearing to marginalize collectors? There is a simple solution. Stop electing dealers to run the organization.

As a Life Member of many years, I was always disappointed that the ANA's membership is transactional. Just read the comments here about the interest in membership, but only if some sort of gift is given. The ANA continues to fail in its ability to grow stalwart membership based on mission and instead focuses on transient membership based on trinkets.

Think about how passionate many collectors are about the hobby? Why can't the ANA grow membership? It's disappointing there are only about 28,000 members, which seems to be around the steady-state for membership.

Millions of people belong to the NRA, Greenpeace, Boy Scouts, etc and the ANA can only attract about 28,000 annually?

Edited to change membership to 28,000.

MrEureka

@astrorat said:
Don't like the decisions appearing to marginalize collectors? There is a simple solution. Stop electing dealers to run the organization.

I don't buy that. I think this decision was either forced by issues unknown to us, or it was just a bad decision. Whatever the case may be, I'm confident that there was no intent to favor dealers in any way. Milk them, perhaps, but not favor them.

astrorat

@MrEureka said:

@astrorat said:
Don't like the decisions appearing to marginalize collectors? There is a simple solution. Stop electing dealers to run the organization.

I don't buy that. I think this decision was either forced by issues unknown to us, or it was just a bad decision. Whatever the case may be, I'm confident that there was no intent to favor dealers in any way. Milk them, perhaps, but not favor them.

The Board runs the organization. When has the Board not been run by dealers?

yspsales

I saw a YT video some months ago. Might have been Coin Week vlog related.

They stated that their analytics were 250k unique visitors a month, mostly young adults up to age 40, and global.

ANA and the coin business structure is archaic, secretive,, and too many tolls you have to pay at almost every turn.

They need a Coin Channel not unlike VSIN for gambling or Scott Kelly for photography.

Coin hobby is far from dead but jJust evolved online and globally.

WCC

@astrorat said:

Think about how passionate many collectors are about the hobby? Why can't the ANA grow membership? It's disappointing there are only about 28,000 members, which seems to be around the steady-state for membership.

Millions of people belong to the NRA, Greenpeace, Boy Scouts, etc and the ANA can only attract about 28,000 annually?

It's my inference the ANA isn't relevant to many collectors. It has little if any relevance to me. I have thought about joining the ANS and if there ever is a specialist club for what I collect, I might join that.

MrEureka

@astrorat said:

@MrEureka said:

@astrorat said:
Don't like the decisions appearing to marginalize collectors? There is a simple solution. Stop electing dealers to run the organization.

I don't buy that. I think this decision was either forced by issues unknown to us, or it was just a bad decision. Whatever the case may be, I'm confident that there was no intent to favor dealers in any way. Milk them, perhaps, but not favor them.

The Board runs the organization. When has the Board not been run by dealers?

I have no idea. But tell me, in what specific ways do you think that the ANA has been run for the benefit of dealers AND to the detriment of collectors? I don't see it, but please feel free to enlighten me.

amwldcoin

PNG day used to p*ss off most of the other tabled non PNG dealers including myself. The worst was the Pittsburg show in 2004 I believe and man did it screw up non PNG dealers move in and set up!

Edit to add, The wonderful ANA thought they could move in all the other dealers on set up day in 2 or 3 hours. It is loads of fun trying to set up opening day with the public milling about because hardly any one had time to set up the day before. It took me til around 12 to get set up myself and I was near the front of the move in line! The ANA started off by just letting 2 dealers at a time up to the door to move in! Of course 1 of the dealers parked there was one of the ones that takes an hour or more to load in. After about an hour they finally started letting those of us with the innovation to wheel our handcarts up to the door enter the hall.

@MrEureka said:

@ricko said:
Seems like the ANA is becoming a tad elitist..... Exclusion is not good.... Cheers, RickO

I'd support a $125 early bird fee. Actually, I think $200 would be fine if the general public can't get in until the next day. The ANA can put that money to good use. I just don't understand why earlybirds have to be dealers. But I could easily be missing something. Waiting for an explanation.

As for PNG, I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing for them. PNG Days are nowhere near as useful as they were "back in the day", and I won't miss them in the least. Some new approach is long overdue.

astrorat

@MrEureka said:

@astrorat said:

@MrEureka said:

@astrorat said:
Don't like the decisions appearing to marginalize collectors? There is a simple solution. Stop electing dealers to run the organization.

I don't buy that. I think this decision was either forced by issues unknown to us, or it was just a bad decision. Whatever the case may be, I'm confident that there was no intent to favor dealers in any way. Milk them, perhaps, but not favor them.

The Board runs the organization. When has the Board not been run by dealers?

I have no idea. But tell me, in what specific ways do you think that the ANA has been run for the benefit of dealers AND to the detriment of collectors? I don't see it, but please feel free to enlighten me.

I don't think it needs to be run as zero-sum. I think both collectors and dealers can benefit without being detrimental to one or the other. I think what is described in the OP is an example of a decision that marginalized collectors.

I have been involved with the leadership of enough organizations to understand that people, however gracious, bring biases to decisions that in general tends to favor their constituency. Dealers and collectors have different perspectives and priorities. A Board with a majority of dealers will make different decisions than a Board made of collectors. Not necessarily better or worse decisions, just different. Don't like the decisions? Change the composition of the Board.

Justacommeman

MrEureka

@astrorat said:

@MrEureka said:

@astrorat said:

@MrEureka said:

@astrorat said:
Don't like the decisions appearing to marginalize collectors? There is a simple solution. Stop electing dealers to run the organization.

I don't buy that. I think this decision was either forced by issues unknown to us, or it was just a bad decision. Whatever the case may be, I'm confident that there was no intent to favor dealers in any way. Milk them, perhaps, but not favor them.

The Board runs the organization. When has the Board not been run by dealers?

I have no idea. But tell me, in what specific ways do you think that the ANA has been run for the benefit of dealers AND to the detriment of collectors? I don't see it, but please feel free to enlighten me.

I don't think it needs to be run as zero-sum. I think both collectors and dealers can benefit without being detrimental to one or the other. I think what is described in the OP is an example of a decision that marginalized collectors.

Maybe. But what if the decision was made with the primary goal of increasing revenue, and if the desire to increase revenue was based on not wanting to have to raise the dues charged to collectors, or cut the services provided to them?

Regardless, I understand your point about natural biases and all that. I just don't see any evidence of that actually being a problem with the ANA.

bidask

Gee whiz I always pay for early bird passes.

I like the opportunity to buy coins first 😊

I was prepared to spend a ton of $’s at that dealer day only show .

It would have been my first show since covid shut down shows .

Oh well .

MFeld

@bidask said:
Gee whiz I always pay for early bird passes.

I like the opportunity to buy coins first 😊

I was prepared to spend a ton of $’s at that dealer day only show .

It would have been my first show since covid shut down shows .

Oh well .

It's one (itsy bitty) day prior to the ANA, right? If you want to feel bad, think of it as a different show, entirely. Otherwise, just look at it as waiting a day longer to go to your first show since the shut-down. And spend a ton of money, too.

Nic

Hope it happens. I will be near then and have an EIN.

The "Hotel Day", before the "Dealer Day", might be better!

oreville

@Lakesammman said:
Still no bones being thrown to ANA Life Members ........no need to appease them - we already have their money.

Ugggh, made that mistake as well in 1996. Only saving grace is that I made that mistake once of becoming a lifetime member.
The famous quote of fooling me twice vs once comes to mind.

coinkat

And this is what is wrong with the ANA, PNG and this hobby. I will end my post in an effort to prevent this from being closed. So much to write... but at the end of the day it makes no difference because no one is reading or even listening because those that can make a difference simply refuse to do anything to advance the best interest of the hobby.

Coinosaurus

A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

MrEureka

@Coinosaurus said:
A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

All the more reason not to bother with the rule in the first place. Still waiting for an explanation.

jmlanzaf

@MrEureka said:

@Coinosaurus said:
A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

All the more reason not to bother with the rule in the first place. Still waiting for an explanation.

Isn't a SS# technically a Federal Tax ID?

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:

@MrEureka said:

@Coinosaurus said:
A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

All the more reason not to bother with the rule in the first place. Still waiting for an explanation.

Isn't a SS# technically a Federal Tax ID?

From here:

https://www.fool.com/the-blueprint/ein-vs-ssn/

EIN vs. SSN: What's the difference?
An EIN is to a business as a SSN is to a person. The IRS tracks your personal tax filings with your SSN, just as it uses your EIN to keep tabs on your business filings.

SSNs (and ITINs) can be used only in a business capacity when you’re running a business that’s not required to file taxes separately from its owner, such as sole proprietorships and most single-member LLCs with no employees. Businesses that don’t file tax returns apart from their owners are called disregarded entities.

Consider Eric, a freelance photographer who doesn’t employ anyone. He pays his small business taxes through personal tax Form 1040. He operates as a sole proprietor and isn’t required to have an EIN.

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MrEureka said:

@Coinosaurus said:
A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

All the more reason not to bother with the rule in the first place. Still waiting for an explanation.

Isn't a SS# technically a Federal Tax ID?

From here:

https://www.fool.com/the-blueprint/ein-vs-ssn/

EIN vs. SSN: What's the difference?
An EIN is to a business as a SSN is to a person. The IRS tracks your personal tax filings with your SSN, just as it uses your EIN to keep tabs on your business filings.

SSNs (and ITINs) can be used only in a business capacity when you’re running a business that’s not required to file taxes separately from its owner, such as sole proprietorships and most single-member LLCs with no employees. Businesses that don’t file tax returns apart from their owners are called disregarded entities.

Consider Eric, a freelance photographer who doesn’t employ anyone. He pays his small business taxes through personal tax Form 1040. He operates as a sole proprietor and isn’t required to have an EIN.

Yes, that's my point. Asking for a resale certificate might limit to dealers. And it would implicitly be required to purchase a table. But the non-table holder admission isn't requiring a resale certificate given the "or" in the sentence.

Edited to add: But you need to find a dealer willing to let you piggy back on their table.

jmlanzaf

https://f.hubspotusercontent30.net/hubfs/6180285/DealerDay-Application.pdf?__hstc=43616378.7a8a7a645a325e0772710a4f193ffb44.1616006844206.1616006844206.1616006844206.1&__hssc=43616378.2.1616006844208&__hsfp=2121733433&hsCtaTracking=ae1025e9-53c7-4055-8241-38b119c760f7|37733858-a9eb-428a-85aa-f4b7fc4fdc68

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
Yes, that's my point. Asking for a resale certificate might limit to dealers. And it would implicitly be required to purchase a table. But the non-table holder admission isn't requiring a resale certificate given the "or" in the sentence.

There are two "or"s in there:

A resale certificate, federal tax ID or tax license is required to purchase a table or gain admission to Dealer Day.

The first "or" appears to apply to one of these three options:

-resale certificate
-federal tax ID
-tax license

The second "or" appears to apply to one of these two options:

-purchase a table
-gain admission

I suppose one could call the ANA and ask...

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Yes, that's my point. Asking for a resale certificate might limit to dealers. And it would implicitly be required to purchase a table. But the non-table holder admission isn't requiring a resale certificate given the "or" in the sentence.

There are two "or"s in there:

A resale certificate, federal tax ID or tax license is required to purchase a table or gain admission to Dealer Day.

The first "or" appears to apply to one of these three options:

-resale certificate
-federal tax ID
-tax license

The second "or" appears to apply to one of these two options:

-purchase a table
-gain admission

I suppose one could call the ANA and ask...

The bigger condition appears to be the requirement to have a Bourse table. This secondary condition appears to be of little consequence. A sole proprietorship can run their business under their SS#.

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
A sole proprietorship can run their business under their SS#.

I'm pretty sure my tax guy would have informed me by now if this was not so.

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
A sole proprietorship can run their business under their SS#.

I'm pretty sure my tax guy would have informed me by now if this was not so.

You never know. Someone out there has the worst tax guy in the country...

MasonG

Not the contest I want to win, that's for sure.

amwldcoin

Except since I only sell coins and my state doesn't charge sales tax on coins I have never needed a resale cert. Been operating that way for 25 or so years and never had an issue!

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MrEureka said:

@Coinosaurus said:
A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

All the more reason not to bother with the rule in the first place. Still waiting for an explanation.

Isn't a SS# technically a Federal Tax ID?

From here:

https://www.fool.com/the-blueprint/ein-vs-ssn/

EIN vs. SSN: What's the difference?
An EIN is to a business as a SSN is to a person. The IRS tracks your personal tax filings with your SSN, just as it uses your EIN to keep tabs on your business filings.

SSNs (and ITINs) can be used only in a business capacity when you’re running a business that’s not required to file taxes separately from its owner, such as sole proprietorships and most single-member LLCs with no employees. Businesses that don’t file tax returns apart from their owners are called disregarded entities.

Consider Eric, a freelance photographer who doesn’t employ anyone. He pays his small business taxes through personal tax Form 1040. He operates as a sole proprietor and isn’t required to have an EIN.

Yes, that's my point. Asking for a resale certificate might limit to dealers. And it would implicitly be required to purchase a table. But the non-table holder admission isn't requiring a resale certificate given the "or" in the sentence.

Edited to add: But you need to find a dealer willing to let you piggy back on their table.

amwldcoin

I do!

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
A sole proprietorship can run their business under their SS#.

I'm pretty sure my tax guy would have informed me by now if this was not so.

PerryHall

I've been an ANA member for 41 years. Would they turn me away if I showed up there to attend?

PCGS_SocialMedia

While it's understandably a confusing and frustrating situation, there are a few comments here that border on violations. This is not a blanket warning to the thread, nor is it being closed, but just a reminder to keep (especially rules 2 and 3) in mind.

BStrauss3

@Coinosaurus said:
A valid tax number (EIN) costs nothing. Go on the website, done. Cancel the number after the show. Any enterprising collector who really wants to get in, can.

Besides the key word is OR ... you can also get a tax permit in a few minutes and cancel it later.

mr1931S

$125 admission doesn't represent good value to this collector. Pass.

Desert Moon

The truth is, I have watched ANA make no sense for their decisions for 2 decades now. Here is another one, seems par for the course. If I was grading all of the societies I belong to, ANA would by far and away get the worst grade, even a details grade.......... Dysfunction.

Zoins

Any comments by @ThePennyLady or @Dentuck ?

ThePennyLady

When Ellsworth became president of the ANA, for some unknown reason, he disbanded several of the ANA community committees, including the Dealer Relations Committee which I chaired, so I have no insights into this new "Dealer Day." Like many businesses that have been shut down over the last year, I'm sure the ANA is hurting financially, so I suspect this has to do with trying to garner the usual pre-show business among dealers that usually takes place in various hotel rooms.

If the show goes forward, I plan to have a table during the main show, but not at the dealer day. I am unclear whether dealers who pay for a table for the main show (but not the dealer day) still have to pay to get in for the dealer day.