@jmlanzaf said:
All these whiners are ignoring the fact that there is a difference between dealer-to- dealer traffic and retail traffic. Big deal if they want one time block when they don't have to cater to customers or worry about who's exempt and who's not.
Disagree. with the qualifier that the amounts of irony and sarcasm implied may not have been inferred in the same proportions as intended.
Many dealers, and the larger the capitalization and/or staff the more likely is the prevalence, welcome as much traffic as possible.
One-man operations can't multi-task, but if you were at set-up alone and @Tomb came up and said "Two boxes. You'll buy something", I hope you'd listen. You could be eager to buy nice circ early type. Since he's well-groomed and appears reasonably alert, and especially because he's so motivated that he spent $125 to get into the show just to do some selling, how much time would be lost if a one-dealer table-holder were to ask him if he's got any CAC Bust or EAC material. "No" says Tom, "but I've got a non-CAC MS62 High Relief with good frost that you can make $750 on if you've got a customer". These are first-world problems.
If a whale wants to come on the bourse floor to look at or buy a mega-coin, his $125 should not be refused for lack of a EIN or table badge. If it were your mega-coin, wouldn't you happily pay the fee yourself. Regardless of any particular amount, , don't you want someone to come to your table with a chunk of fresh cash-flow to spend? I find it hard to understand how, in the aggregate, having less live money on the bourse floor, for even an instant, is good for the coin business. If some boats aren't rising as fast as others, welcome to capitalism
As for the whiners, they should know that, at the $10,000 level, there is essentially no retail or wholesale, just a good check.
If you're attributing some dog-in-the-manger qualities to the whiners, I'm not arguing.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
It would be good to know how many dealers bought tables for dealer day. If 30, it wii probably be the type of event most collectors would not want to attend. If 150, nobody would want to miss it. Not just because more is better, but because a big crowd forces dealers to put more coins in showcases.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@jmlanzaf said:
All these whiners are ignoring the fact that there is a difference between dealer-to- dealer traffic and retail traffic. Big deal if they want one time block when they don't have to cater to customers or worry about who's exempt and who's not.
Disagree. with the qualifier that the amounts of irony and sarcasm implied may not have been inferred in the same proportions as intended.
Many dealers, and the larger the capitalization and/or staff the more likely is the prevalence, welcome as much traffic as possible.
One-man operations can't multi-task, but if you were at set-up alone and @Tomb came up and said "Two boxes. You'll buy something", I hope you'd listen. You could be eager to buy nice circ early type. Since he's well-groomed and appears reasonably alert, and especially because he's so motivated that he spent $125 to get into the show just to do some selling, how much time would be lost if a one-dealer table-holder were to ask him if he's got any CAC Bust or EAC material. "No" says Tom, "but I've got a non-CAC MS62 High Relief with good frost that you can make $750 on if you've got a customer". These are first-world problems.
If a whale wants to come on the bourse floor to look at or buy a mega-coin, his $125 should not be refused for lack of a EIN or table badge. If it were your mega-coin, wouldn't you happily pay the fee yourself. Regardless of any particular amount, , don't you want someone to come to your table with a chunk of fresh cash-flow to spend? I find it hard to understand how, in the aggregate, having less live money on the bourse floor, for even an instant, is good for the coin business. If some boats aren't rising as fast as others, welcome to capitalism
As for the whiners, they should know that, at the $10,000 level, there is essentially no retail or wholesale, just a good check.
If you're attributing some dog-in-the-manger qualities to the whiners, I'm not arguing.
Personally, I don't care. Other dealers can be a annoying as retail customers at times. I'll sell to anyone with a buck. BUT, I do understand why some dealers prefer it that way and I don't take it personally being excluded. I wouldn't care if it was only people who had paid for a table.
This was a constant struggle at our local show. Dealers did not like early birds because they were busy. They also felt it was unfair that they then had to stay at the table and not visit other dealers. They wanted table holders only. Other people didn't care because they were there to sell not buy.
And the whiners forget that dealers also have burdensome rules. They can't have empty tables or leave early, etc. None of it is personal or designed to subordinate one group of attendees.
@Zoins said:
If you are a collector, will you go to the show as a second rate ANA member, or not go at all?
It is NOT 2nd rate to have a single dealer only event.
That may be your opinion, but from the posts here, it seems like collector members do feel 2nd rate.
You can go to the show as a dealer with a table and be subjected to the same officiousness. There's a scale to this convention (as with Winter FUN) that renders any comparisons moot. As with other shows run by non-profit-organizations and staffed by but-partially-trained volunteers, their paperwork usually sucks and coordination is problematic.
So don't take it personally. It's systemic. If John Albanese or D.L. Hansen were to show up, they'd be shunted off to the side and be scratching their heads along with the rest of us.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@BryceM said:
I feel differently for other, commercial shows, but this is the ANA. This is our hobby’s premiere event. This is not the place to be exclusive.
It sure looks like someone somewhere has not studied their homework
Maybe everyone should just boycott the show in favor of another show or just dealer days at Hotels.
Another question: If Dealer Day was not intended to replace PNG Day, and instead was meant as a dealers-only pre-show, why was PNG Day eliminated? No need to speculate. I’m just hoping someone who actually knows the answer will respond.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
Another question: If Dealer Day was not intended to replace PNG Day, and instead was meant as a dealers-only pre-show, why was PNG Day eliminated? No need to speculate. I’m just hoping someone who actually knows the answer will respond.
Way back when, before early bird, set up day, and like admissions, I would buy a table just for early show access. Winter FUN for 3 consecutive years for example.
Things have evolved and are not targeting or excluding any one group IMO.
It is all about the money. The show name is the World's Fair Of Money …
Because I'm tired of the table lice who sprawl out at a dealer's booth, blocking one case with the material they're discussing, the 2nd chair with their suitcase stack, and the 2nd case with their paperwork. From 9 am when the bourse opens until 11 am. And yes, that's a specific idiot at the TNA show last month.
If a few of those move to the dealer-to-dealer day, it's a win for me.
And no, I'm not shy about asking them to move something so I can see the cases. I might be a customer, I can't tell if I can't see what's on offer.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
When you get in to these shows early, you can note the dealers who have no interest in dealing with the public. You just leave them to their transactions and move to guys are ready to deal, especially with their regular customers. That can give you a jump on the public which is an advantage.
I have never been a fan of the ANA sponsored shows. I prefer Winter FUN to the big ANA show, and the only Winter ANA, or whatever they call it, was very disappointing for me when they held in Orlando. The selection of coins was not good at all.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
That Winter ANA show in Orlando was a bust! I figured it would be a good show since the FUN show had been in Tampa for the past 2 years if I'm not mistaken. The attendance was horrid!
From this dealers viewpoint for a non profit the ANA is leaps and bounds more expensive to do than any other show. Not only that they have their hands out begging for donations every time you turn around. They are the least dealer friendly show I have done, and I have done many. I guess I have a 15 year stretch where I was setting up at close to 50 shows a year. Sure am glad I gave that up!....Thank You for that Covid.
@BillJones said:
When you get in to these shows early, you can note the dealers who have no interest in dealing with the public. You just leave them to their transactions and move to guys are ready to deal, especially with their regular customers. That can give you a jump on the public which is an advantage.
I have never been a fan of the ANA sponsored shows. I prefer Winter FUN to the big ANA show, and the only Winter ANA, or whatever they call it, was very disappointing for me when they held in Orlando. The selection of coins was not good at all.
PNG day was restricted to PNG dealers only for tables. I do not know what PNG paid to the ANA for the privilege. However, that means that some ANA dealers who were not PNG members could not set up. It also means that PNG members could avoid paying ANA table fees and set up the day ahead.
The ANA dealer day is restricted to dealers who have purchased a table for the ANA. There is an additional fee. Whether that is more or less than PNG paid to the ANA, I don't know. I would suspect, however, that it is more. So, to that end, the ANA added it as either a "perk" or "incentive" to its dealers rather than PNG members.
Now, as to whether or not to allow collectors to enter, that remains a mystery. I would presume the ANA discussed it with their dealers, but I don't know. Does anyone who has an ANA table know if the ANA asked the dealers for their preference?
I've been to a number of the PNG shows ahead of the Main ANA show.
Never ever bought anything. Seems dealers were setting up/ not ready
or too busy with other dealers.
I finally realized I could avoid an extra day of travel and not miss anything.
In the old days there were off site pre shows one or two in the area and they were winners for me.
ANA did not like the completion. I did very well always One trip-- Two or three shows hit, different dealers.
@krueger said:
I've been to a number of the PNG shows ahead of the Main ANA show.
Never ever bought anything. Seems dealers were setting up/ not ready
or too busy with other dealers.
I finally realized I could avoid an extra day of travel and not miss anything.
In the old days there were off site pre shows one or two in the area and they were winners for me.
ANA did not like the completion. I did very well always One trip-- Two or three shows hit, different dealers.
Comments
It is NOT 2nd rate to have a single dealer only event.
Given what dealers pay to set up, maybe they are 2nd rate.
Disagree. with the qualifier that the amounts of irony and sarcasm implied may not have been inferred in the same proportions as intended.
Many dealers, and the larger the capitalization and/or staff the more likely is the prevalence, welcome as much traffic as possible.
One-man operations can't multi-task, but if you were at set-up alone and @Tomb came up and said "Two boxes. You'll buy something", I hope you'd listen. You could be eager to buy nice circ early type. Since he's well-groomed and appears reasonably alert, and especially because he's so motivated that he spent $125 to get into the show just to do some selling, how much time would be lost if a one-dealer table-holder were to ask him if he's got any CAC Bust or EAC material. "No" says Tom, "but I've got a non-CAC MS62 High Relief with good frost that you can make $750 on if you've got a customer". These are first-world problems.
If a whale wants to come on the bourse floor to look at or buy a mega-coin, his $125 should not be refused for lack of a EIN or table badge. If it were your mega-coin, wouldn't you happily pay the fee yourself. Regardless of any particular amount, , don't you want someone to come to your table with a chunk of fresh cash-flow to spend? I find it hard to understand how, in the aggregate, having less live money on the bourse floor, for even an instant, is good for the coin business. If some boats aren't rising as fast as others, welcome to capitalism
As for the whiners, they should know that, at the $10,000 level, there is essentially no retail or wholesale, just a good check.
If you're attributing some dog-in-the-manger qualities to the whiners, I'm not arguing.
That may be your opinion, but from the posts here, it seems like collector members do feel 2nd rate.
It would be good to know how many dealers bought tables for dealer day. If 30, it wii probably be the type of event most collectors would not want to attend. If 150, nobody would want to miss it. Not just because more is better, but because a big crowd forces dealers to put more coins in showcases.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I look forward to the complaints when they pay $125 and don't get the level of service they desire.
Personally, I don't care. Other dealers can be a annoying as retail customers at times. I'll sell to anyone with a buck. BUT, I do understand why some dealers prefer it that way and I don't take it personally being excluded. I wouldn't care if it was only people who had paid for a table.
This was a constant struggle at our local show. Dealers did not like early birds because they were busy. They also felt it was unfair that they then had to stay at the table and not visit other dealers. They wanted table holders only. Other people didn't care because they were there to sell not buy.
And the whiners forget that dealers also have burdensome rules. They can't have empty tables or leave early, etc. None of it is personal or designed to subordinate one group of attendees.
You can go to the show as a dealer with a table and be subjected to the same officiousness. There's a scale to this convention (as with Winter FUN) that renders any comparisons moot. As with other shows run by non-profit-organizations and staffed by but-partially-trained volunteers, their paperwork usually sucks and coordination is problematic.
So don't take it personally. It's systemic. If John Albanese or D.L. Hansen were to show up, they'd be shunted off to the side and be scratching their heads along with the rest of us.
I feel differently for other, commercial shows, but this is the ANA. This is our hobby’s premiere event. This is not the place to be exclusive.
This is it in a nut shell.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
It sure looks like someone somewhere has not studied their homework
Maybe everyone should just boycott the show in favor of another show or just dealer days at Hotels.
Another question: If Dealer Day was not intended to replace PNG Day, and instead was meant as a dealers-only pre-show, why was PNG Day eliminated? No need to speculate. I’m just hoping someone who actually knows the answer will respond.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You know the answer to your own question Andy.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.numismaticnews.net/.amp/events/png-to-host-event-prior-to-ana-dealer-day
Way back when, before early bird, set up day, and like admissions, I would buy a table just for early show access. Winter FUN for 3 consecutive years for example.
Things have evolved and are not targeting or excluding any one group IMO.
It is all about the money. The show name is the World's Fair Of Money …
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
this show has been quirky for decades
you'd think it'd be impossible to come up with some new weird controversy every year but they find a way
Actually, I've decided I'm pro-dealer day.
Why?
Because I'm tired of the table lice who sprawl out at a dealer's booth, blocking one case with the material they're discussing, the 2nd chair with their suitcase stack, and the 2nd case with their paperwork. From 9 am when the bourse opens until 11 am. And yes, that's a specific idiot at the TNA show last month.
If a few of those move to the dealer-to-dealer day, it's a win for me.
And no, I'm not shy about asking them to move something so I can see the cases. I might be a customer, I can't tell if I can't see what's on offer.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
When you get in to these shows early, you can note the dealers who have no interest in dealing with the public. You just leave them to their transactions and move to guys are ready to deal, especially with their regular customers. That can give you a jump on the public which is an advantage.
I have never been a fan of the ANA sponsored shows. I prefer Winter FUN to the big ANA show, and the only Winter ANA, or whatever they call it, was very disappointing for me when they held in Orlando. The selection of coins was not good at all.
That Winter ANA show in Orlando was a bust! I figured it would be a good show since the FUN show had been in Tampa for the past 2 years if I'm not mistaken. The attendance was horrid!
From this dealers viewpoint for a non profit the ANA is leaps and bounds more expensive to do than any other show. Not only that they have their hands out begging for donations every time you turn around. They are the least dealer friendly show I have done, and I have done many. I guess I have a 15 year stretch where I was setting up at close to 50 shows a year. Sure am glad I gave that up!....Thank You for that Covid.
No, I don’t.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's during the same time slot, is it not?
Your point?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You can't very well have two events in the same venue at the same time.
Actually, I think the reasons for some of the changes are obvious. I did a little research.
https://pngdealers.org/png-events/
PNG day was restricted to PNG dealers only for tables. I do not know what PNG paid to the ANA for the privilege. However, that means that some ANA dealers who were not PNG members could not set up. It also means that PNG members could avoid paying ANA table fees and set up the day ahead.
The ANA dealer day is restricted to dealers who have purchased a table for the ANA. There is an additional fee. Whether that is more or less than PNG paid to the ANA, I don't know. I would suspect, however, that it is more. So, to that end, the ANA added it as either a "perk" or "incentive" to its dealers rather than PNG members.
Now, as to whether or not to allow collectors to enter, that remains a mystery. I would presume the ANA discussed it with their dealers, but I don't know. Does anyone who has an ANA table know if the ANA asked the dealers for their preference?
I've been to a number of the PNG shows ahead of the Main ANA show.
Never ever bought anything. Seems dealers were setting up/ not ready
or too busy with other dealers.
I finally realized I could avoid an extra day of travel and not miss anything.
In the old days there were off site pre shows one or two in the area and they were winners for me.
ANA did not like the completion. I did very well always One trip-- Two or three shows hit, different dealers.
Krueger
PNG is having just such a show this year.