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ANA Dealer Day Replaces PNG Day, but NO COLLECTORS allowed?

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  • @2ndCharter said:
    More money for ANA, and they probably really do need it.

    Do some housecleaning of the numerous multiples they have had donated to them and they'll have more money than they know what to do with.

    Actually, they got a huge sum from an endowment or something recently, so in theory they should be doing just fine financially, except for their general mismanagement of funds and lack of support for the overall hobby.

  • yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How are coin clubs structured?

    Do they have a dedicated ANA bent?

    Are they independent?

    If sports cards can rebound, coins should not be that hard.

    It would seem with all of the interest in PM's there would be an ability to cross a few into hardcore numismatics.

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I sent an email to the ANA yesterday, asking if collectors were allowed or not at the event.

    As of this evening, I have received no reply.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    I sent an email to the ANA yesterday, asking if collectors were allowed or not at the event.

    As of this evening, I have received no reply.

    Any reply yet?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • 2ndCharter2ndCharter Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's a question - aside from being a 45-year member of the ANA, I'm also the Treasurer of the South Carolina Numismatic Association and the Society of Paper Money Collectors. Now, for both of those organizations, I have to file an annual Form 1099 to the IRS. In order to do that, I have to have an EIN for both organizations. Now, if I were to show on Dealer Day with one of those EIN forms, would that work?

    Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA

  • 2ndCharter2ndCharter Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, not 1099 - meant to say Form 990 (full 9-page form for SPMC, Form 990-EZ for SCNA).

    Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA

  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, what the definition of a dealer - Clearly if i sell no coins during a year, i am a collector. If i sell one coin a year, then I am closer to a dealer... fast forward - if i sell 50 coins a year, then i am a dealer. You get my drift....
    PS- SS# are 123.45.6789 and EINs are 12-3456768- how would can person know the difference. If you want a EIN then go to the IRS website and apply for one - its free! So I dont what a dealer is in the coin world.

    Easton Collection
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @EastonCollection said:
    So, what the definition of a dealer - Clearly if i sell no coins during a year, i am a collector. If i sell one coin a year, then I am closer to a dealer... fast forward - if i sell 50 coins a year, then i am a dealer. You get my drift....
    PS- SS# are 123.45.6789 and EINs are 12-3456768- how would can person know the difference. If you want a EIN then go to the IRS website and apply for one - its free! So I dont what a dealer is in the coin world.

    You can sell 1000 coins in a year and not be a dealer.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,816 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe the ANA can just expand the concept and change the Day to Bring Your Accountant Day...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2ndCharter said:
    Here's a question - aside from being a 45-year member of the ANA, I'm also the Treasurer of the South Carolina Numismatic Association and the Society of Paper Money Collectors. Now, for both of those organizations, I have to file an annual Form 1099 to the IRS. In order to do that, I have to have an EIN for both organizations. Now, if I were to show on Dealer Day with one of those EIN forms, would that work?

    None of that, in itself, indicates that you’re necessarily a dealer. The fact that you mentioned those things and nothing else, gives me the impression that you don’t think you’re a dealer.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • 2ndCharter2ndCharter Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭✭

    None of that, in itself, indicates that you’re necessarily a dealer. The fact that you mentioned those things and nothing else, gives me the impression that you don’t think you’re a dealer.

    Oh, absolutely - but where do you draw the line?

    Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2ndCharter said:
    None of that, in itself, indicates that you’re necessarily a dealer. The fact that you mentioned those things and nothing else, gives me the impression that you don’t think you’re a dealer.

    Oh, absolutely - but where do you draw the line?

    I don’t. And what counts is where the ANA draws the line.
    I agree with Andy - it shouldn’t even be necessary to qualify as a dealer in order to get in.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @MasonG said:
    I sent an email to the ANA yesterday, asking if collectors were allowed or not at the event.

    As of this evening, I have received no reply.

    Any reply yet?

    No.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you really want to get in just give them a random 9 digit number, make up a business name and give them $125. What are they gonna do, call the IRS and check?

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2021 8:49AM

    @MFeld said:
    I agree with Andy - it shouldn’t even be necessary to qualify as a dealer in order to get in.

    Does the ANA just have a preference and bias for dealers?

    What is the ratio of dealers to collectors on the ANA Governors board?

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on the above, even tradedollarnut would not be allowed to attend unless he agrees to go on Laura's payroll as a new employee. LOL.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Maybe the ANA can just expand the concept and change the Day to Bring Your Accountant Day...

    I am in!

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oreville said:
    Based on the above, even tradedollarnut would not be allowed to attend unless he agrees to go on Laura's payroll as a new employee. LOL.

    He’s a partner at Legend. I think they’d allow owners to go.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    We can debate what qualifies someone as a dealer and ways to get into the show, but why should it even be necessary? The ANA should allow collectors to attend the first day of the show, whatever that day is called. PNG Day, Dealer Day, Professional Preview, Sponsors Day, whatever. If someone is willing to pay the fee, they should be welcome.

    agree..... it use to be that way all previous years I can recall

    Money is money and sales are sales ...

    if i was a certified PNG dealer i would want other collectors as well as dealers in the bourse room to keep prices
    buoyant and competitive

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @oreville said:
    Based on the above, even tradedollarnut would not be allowed to attend unless he agrees to go on Laura's payroll as a new employee. LOL.

    He’s a partner at Legend. I think they’d allow owners to go.

    The ANA is nuts. Partners are second rate. Only considers them investors. Not working dealers.

    Proof of this: Even Lifetime members are second rate, possibly even third rate.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @2ndCharter said:
    None of that, in itself, indicates that you’re necessarily a dealer. The fact that you mentioned those things and nothing else, gives me the impression that you don’t think you’re a dealer.

    Oh, absolutely - but where do you draw the line?

    I don’t. And what counts is where the ANA draws the line.
    I agree with Andy - it shouldn’t even be necessary to qualify as a dealer in order to get in.

    There are reasons why people might prefer dealer only. Transacting is different as is the paperwork with regards to things like sales tax.

  • edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2021 11:32AM

    .

    End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
    ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @edwardjulio said:
    From ANA:
    "The American Numismatic Association is a congressionally chartered, nonprofit educational organization dedicated to encouraging the study and collection of coins and related items. The ANA helps its nearly 28,000 members and the public discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of educational and outreach programs, as well as its museum, library, publications and conventions."

    Without collectors, there would be no dealers. Symbiotic relationship.

    That is irrelevant. They can have a dealer only or collector only or member only event if they want. Appreciating collectors doesn't mean they have to be invited to everything.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @edwardjulio said:
    From ANA:
    "The American Numismatic Association is a congressionally chartered, nonprofit educational organization dedicated to encouraging the study and collection of coins and related items. The ANA helps its nearly 28,000 members and the public discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of educational and outreach programs, as well as its museum, library, publications and conventions."

    Without collectors, there would be no dealers. Symbiotic relationship.

    That is irrelevant. They can have a dealer only or collector only or member only event if they want. Appreciating collectors doesn't mean they have to be invited to everything.

    Of course, ANA member collectors who feel slighted by being excluded from an ANA sponsored activity can choose to not renew their membership.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • savitalesavitale Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would guess that dealers prefer having a day to themselves for some reason. I can think of a few but I would just be guessing.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1874 said:
    $125 admission doesn't represent good value to this collector. Pass.

    I don’t get paying money for the privilege to buy stuff. Even dealer to dealer is simply jockeying to get the best stuff to sell to retail buyers like me. One could argue that I could cut out the middle man and buy it first saving the entry fee but it so rarely works like that. I get the point that I could buy it before being snipped by another retail buyer so the value is in access but strangely enough I have never ever ever…….ever had a hard time finding a coin to buy. The variable is who gets my money

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @edwardjulio said:
    From ANA:
    "The American Numismatic Association is a congressionally chartered, nonprofit educational organization dedicated to encouraging the study and collection of coins and related items. The ANA helps its nearly 28,000 members and the public discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of educational and outreach programs, as well as its museum, library, publications and conventions."

    Without collectors, there would be no dealers. Symbiotic relationship.

    That is irrelevant. They can have a dealer only or collector only or member only event if they want. Appreciating collectors doesn't mean they have to be invited to everything.

    Of course, ANA member collectors who feel slighted by being excluded from an ANA sponsored activity can choose to not renew their membership.

    Lifetime members are then screwed. They do not have the option of non-renewal.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oreville said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @edwardjulio said:
    From ANA:
    "The American Numismatic Association is a congressionally chartered, nonprofit educational organization dedicated to encouraging the study and collection of coins and related items. The ANA helps its nearly 28,000 members and the public discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of educational and outreach programs, as well as its museum, library, publications and conventions."

    Without collectors, there would be no dealers. Symbiotic relationship.

    That is irrelevant. They can have a dealer only or collector only or member only event if they want. Appreciating collectors doesn't mean they have to be invited to everything.

    Of course, ANA member collectors who feel slighted by being excluded from an ANA sponsored activity can choose to not renew their membership.

    Lifetime members are then screwed. They do not have the option of non-renewal.

    They can still resign

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2021 7:59PM

    So what will replace the ANA? ;)

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2021 10:40PM

    I've spoken to a couple of ANA Board members about this. One was unclear on the policy and the rationale. The other saw the Dealer Day as something of a replacement for the dealer-to-dealer pre-show hotel action, which is more about dealers running through boxes of each others' inventory rather than putting out a display of coins for sale and for all to see. (No telling if that's what will actually happen.)

    I signed up for a Dealer Day table thinking it would be more of a replacement for PNG Day but, for some strange and unknown reason, without collectors. Which was not ideal as far as I was concerned, but still worth attending. (Normally, I don't bother with the pre-show dealer gatherings.) Anyway, I still don't see the need to forbid entry to non-dealers, but I can see why the ANA might not want to promote the event to the general public.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @edwardjulio said:
    From ANA:
    "The American Numismatic Association is a congressionally chartered, nonprofit educational organization dedicated to encouraging the study and collection of coins and related items. The ANA helps its nearly 28,000 members and the public discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of educational and outreach programs, as well as its museum, library, publications and conventions."

    Without collectors, there would be no dealers. Symbiotic relationship.

    That is irrelevant. They can have a dealer only or collector only or member only event if they want. Appreciating collectors doesn't mean they have to be invited to everything.

    Of course, ANA member collectors who feel slighted by being excluded from an ANA sponsored activity can choose to not renew their membership.

    Or they can elect a slate of governors :)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    I've spoken to a couple of ANA Board members about this. One was unclear on the policy and the rationale. The other saw the Dealer Day as something of a replacement for the dealer-to-dealer pre-show hotel action, which is more about dealers running through boxes of each others' inventory rather than putting out a display of coins for sale and for all to see. (No telling if that's what will actually happen.)

    I signed up for a Dealer Day table thinking it would be more of a replacement for PNG Day but, for some strange and unknown reason, without collectors. Which was not ideal as far as I was concerned, but still worth attending. (Normally, I don't bother with the pre-show dealer gatherings.) Anyway, I still don't see the need to forbid entry to non-dealers, but I can see why the ANA might not want to promote the event to the general public.

    If the best coins are purchased in ANA Dealer Day, are they made available to collectors for a mark up or are they not available at the show to collectors due to turn around time and adding to inventory?

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:

    @mr1874 said:
    $125 admission doesn't represent good value to this collector. Pass.

    I don’t get paying money for the privilege to buy stuff. Even dealer to dealer is simply jockeying to get the best stuff to sell to retail buyers like me. One could argue that I could cut out the middle man and buy it first saving the entry fee but it so rarely works like that. I get the point that I could buy it before being snipped by another retail buyer so the value is in access but strangely enough I have never ever ever…….ever had a hard time finding a coin to buy. The variable is who gets my money

    Not a member of Costco/Sam's/BJ's are you?

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,817 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2021 7:37AM

    @BryceM said:

    Personally, I only joined the ANA to get submitting privileges at CAC. Im not sure what value I’m getting beyond that.

    I think you meant NGC. I think the ANA monthly magazine "The Numismatist" is well worth the cost of membership.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have heard rumblings from a couple dealers that they don’t like “super bourse” buyers (collectors and dealers without tables) who get in for a fee before the general public is admitted. I think those dealers should “get over it,” but it looks like they have won the day with the ANA board.

    It’s disappointing that an organization that is supposed to represent collectors often disappoints collectors. Why isn’t the ANA complaining about the way the mint sales operation works? I guess it’s because the ANA is more interested in pleasing the dealers.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @BryceM said:

    Personally, I only joined the ANA to get submitting privileges at CAC. Im not sure what value I’m getting beyond that.

    I think you meant NGC. I think the ANA monthly magazine "The Numismatist" is well worth the cost of membership.

    No, I meant CAC. ANA membership is a prerequisite. And, yes, the Numismatist is a good read, but value in membership should extend well beyond getting a magazine.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @BryceM said:

    Personally, I only joined the ANA to get submitting privileges at CAC. Im not sure what value I’m getting beyond that.

    I think you meant NGC. I think the ANA monthly magazine "The Numismatist" is well worth the cost of membership.

    No, I meant CAC. ANA membership is a prerequisite. And, yes, the Numismatist is a good read, but value in membership should extend well beyond getting a magazine.

    I knew that submitting privileges to NGC automatically came with ANA membership since NGC is the official grading service of the ANA in addition to being the official grading service of PNG. I didn't realize that ANA membership is a requirement for submitting to CAC. I learned something new today. Thanks.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    I have heard rumblings from a couple dealers that they don’t like “super bourse” buyers (collectors and dealers without tables) who get in for a fee before the general public is admitted. I think those dealers should “get over it,” but it looks like they have won the day with the ANA board.

    It’s disappointing that an organization that is supposed to represent collectors often disappoints collectors. Why isn’t the ANA complaining about the way the mint sales operation works? I guess it’s because the ANA is more interested in pleasing the dealers.

    Early birds are a different matter, aren't they?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    Getting snubbed by the ANA at our meeting by our Congress-chartered organization is NOT ok.

    I hope President / Dr. Ralph Ross and the rest of the ANA is listening.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,991 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been an ANA member for 52 years and a Life Member for 49 1/2 years. I have been a Patron for most ANA conventions for decades. I have probably donated more to the ANA than a lot of the dealers that will get into the show on Dealer Day. Go figure. :#

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @golden said:
    I have been an ANA member for 52 years and a Life Member for 49 1/2 years. I have been a Patron for most ANA conventions for decades. I have probably donated more to the ANA than a lot of the dealers that will get into the show on Dealer Day. Go figure. :#

    Great support! Hope you get your gold 50th Anniversary Medal soon :)

    Have you ever thought about running for ANA President or another leadership position?

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,991 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @golden said:
    I have been an ANA member for 52 years and a Life Member for 49 1/2 years. I have been a Patron for most ANA conventions for decades. I have probably donated more to the ANA than a lot of the dealers that will get into the show on Dealer Day. Go figure. :#

    Great support! Hope you get your gold 50th Anniversary Medal soon :)

    Have you ever thought about running for ANA President or another leadership position?

    I got my 50 year Gold Membership medal at the 2019 convention in Chicago. I am a 52 year member.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2021 10:37AM

    @golden said:

    @Zoins said:

    @golden said:
    I have been an ANA member for 52 years and a Life Member for 49 1/2 years. I have been a Patron for most ANA conventions for decades. I have probably donated more to the ANA than a lot of the dealers that will get into the show on Dealer Day. Go figure. :#

    Great support! Hope you get your gold 50th Anniversary Medal soon :)

    Have you ever thought about running for ANA President or another leadership position?

    I got my 50 year Gold Membership medal at the 2019 convention in Chicago. I am a 52 year member.

    Congrats! I was too focused on the 49 1/2 number!

    I wonder if flashing your gold medal will get you into the show? It should count for something (in addition to being a nice chunk of gold)!

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2021 10:55AM

    @daltex said:

    @Crypto said:

    @mr1874 said:
    $125 admission doesn't represent good value to this collector. Pass.

    I don’t get paying money for the privilege to buy stuff. Even dealer to dealer is simply jockeying to get the best stuff to sell to retail buyers like me. One could argue that I could cut out the middle man and buy it first saving the entry fee but it so rarely works like that. I get the point that I could buy it before being snipped by another retail buyer so the value is in access but strangely enough I have never ever ever…….ever had a hard time finding a coin to buy. The variable is who gets my money

    Not a member of Costco/Sam's/BJ's are you?

    I’m not because there are none near where I live, only 18 different Whole Foods ;) . That said me paying $125 won’t get me access to wholesale bullion or choice seated material unlike your example which gets me access to large cheap tubs of chocolate pudding and hot pockets.

    The early/unique access is more about the shows taxing dealer to dealer and impatient transactions then getting any real value to the buyer

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The ANA decision reminds me of the CoinFacts picture deletion decision. Dealers rule.

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All these whiners are ignoring the fact that there is a difference between dealer-to- dealer traffic and retail traffic. Big deal if they want one time block when they don't have to cater to customers or worry about who's exempt and who's not.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you are a collector, will you go to the show as a second rate ANA member, or not go at all?

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