@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
Ok you and I are having two different conversations here. I have always said OL, DB and QB are the 3 most important positions in football but looking at the career of LT or even this years playoffs with Devin White being a PROBLEM I think I might be better off saying that any player can make a big difference if he is really “Great”. So that being said I’m open to having that discussion with you but the QB bring 7% of value really needs to be cleared up first. I will not remotely take you serious when your saying you could maybe be pushed to that 7% but really you stand at around 5%? Seriously????
Out of the 45% total I give for offense and 31.5% given to passing plays? Yes, 7% overall is nearly 25% of the allocation for passing plays and that's quite significant. Higher than that and you diminish every other offensive player to a negligible contribution. We saw how Brady did last year without anyone to throw to.
What is the QBs value on a handoff and how often to you run instead of pass?
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
Ok you and I are having two different conversations here. I have always said OL, DB and QB are the 3 most important positions in football but looking at the career of LT or even this years playoffs with Devin White being a PROBLEM I think I might be better off saying that any player can make a big difference if he is really “Great”. So that being said I’m open to having that discussion with you but the QB bring 7% of value really needs to be cleared up first. I will not remotely take you serious when your saying you could maybe be pushed to that 7% but really you stand at around 5%? Seriously????
Out of the 45% total I give for offense and 31.5% given to passing plays? Yes, 7% overall is nearly 25% of the allocation for passing plays and that's quite significant. Higher than that and you diminish every other offensive player to a negligible contribution. We saw how Brady did last year without anyone to throw to.
What is the QBs value on a handoff and how often to you run instead of pass?
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
And there's the rub, that makes all stats irrelevant (as far as attributing outcome to a single player) and we have to rely on the "eye test". As far as adjusting behind center, Brady was the second best of his generation at the "eye test" IMHO.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
Ok you and I are having two different conversations here. I have always said OL, DB and QB are the 3 most important positions in football but looking at the career of LT or even this years playoffs with Devin White being a PROBLEM I think I might be better off saying that any player can make a big difference if he is really “Great”. So that being said I’m open to having that discussion with you but the QB bring 7% of value really needs to be cleared up first. I will not remotely take you serious when your saying you could maybe be pushed to that 7% but really you stand at around 5%? Seriously????
Out of the 45% total I give for offense and 31.5% given to passing plays? Yes, 7% overall is nearly 25% of the allocation for passing plays and that's quite significant. Higher than that and you diminish every other offensive player to a negligible contribution. We saw how Brady did last year without anyone to throw to.
What is the QBs value on a handoff and how often to you run instead of pass?
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
And there's the rub, that makes all stats irrelevant (as far as attributing outcome to a single player) and we have to rely on the "eye test". As far as adjusting behind center, Brady was the second best of his generation at the "eye test" IMHO.
Im guessing you are kidding. Manning played on a lot of great teams. Yet he managed to go a pedestrian 14-13 in the playoffs. Brady's teams you ask? 34-11 with 7 hoists of the trophy. No contest unless you have crazy eyes
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
Ok you and I are having two different conversations here. I have always said OL, DB and QB are the 3 most important positions in football but looking at the career of LT or even this years playoffs with Devin White being a PROBLEM I think I might be better off saying that any player can make a big difference if he is really “Great”. So that being said I’m open to having that discussion with you but the QB bring 7% of value really needs to be cleared up first. I will not remotely take you serious when your saying you could maybe be pushed to that 7% but really you stand at around 5%? Seriously????
Out of the 45% total I give for offense and 31.5% given to passing plays? Yes, 7% overall is nearly 25% of the allocation for passing plays and that's quite significant. Higher than that and you diminish every other offensive player to a negligible contribution. We saw how Brady did last year without anyone to throw to.
What is the QBs value on a handoff and how often to you run instead of pass?
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
And there's the rub, that makes all stats irrelevant (as far as attributing outcome to a single player) and we have to rely on the "eye test". As far as adjusting behind center, Brady was the second best of his generation at the "eye test" IMHO.
Im guessing you are kidding. Manning played on a lot of great teams. Yet he managed to go a pedestrian 14-13 in the playoffs. Brady's teams you ask? 34-11 with 7 hoists of the trophy. No contest unless you have crazy eyes
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
Ok you and I are having two different conversations here. I have always said OL, DB and QB are the 3 most important positions in football but looking at the career of LT or even this years playoffs with Devin White being a PROBLEM I think I might be better off saying that any player can make a big difference if he is really “Great”. So that being said I’m open to having that discussion with you but the QB bring 7% of value really needs to be cleared up first. I will not remotely take you serious when your saying you could maybe be pushed to that 7% but really you stand at around 5%? Seriously????
Out of the 45% total I give for offense and 31.5% given to passing plays? Yes, 7% overall is nearly 25% of the allocation for passing plays and that's quite significant. Higher than that and you diminish every other offensive player to a negligible contribution. We saw how Brady did last year without anyone to throw to.
What is the QBs value on a handoff and how often to you run instead of pass?
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
And there's the rub, that makes all stats irrelevant (as far as attributing outcome to a single player) and we have to rely on the "eye test". As far as adjusting behind center, Brady was the second best of his generation at the "eye test" IMHO.
Im guessing you are kidding. Manning played on a lot of great teams. Yet he managed to go a pedestrian 14-13 in the playoffs. Brady's teams you ask? 34-11 with 7 hoists of the trophy. No contest unless you have crazy eyes
m
Winning % Attributed solely to the QB Again
My point was Manning's teams were 14-13 in the playoffs. Brady's 34-11. They both played on great teams. Fill in the rest of blanks however you want.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Super Bowl rings. I'm sure it's just a mere coincidence that Brady has the most. No other Patriot won more then 3. Must be some kind of anomaly
Tom Brady* QB 7
Charles Haley LB 5
Ted Hendricks LB 4
Marv Fleming TE 4
Matt Millen LB 4
Bill Romanowski LB 4
Adam Vinatieri* K 4
Joe Montana QB 4
Keena Turner LB 4
Eric Wright CB 4
Mike Wilson WR 4
Ronnie Lott DB 4
Jesse Sapolu OL 4
Terry Bradshaw QB 4
Franco Harris FB 4
Lynn Swann WR 4
John Stallworth WR 4
Mel Blount DB 4
Jack Ham LB 4
Mike Webster C 4
Donnie Shell DB 4
L.C. Greenwood DE 4
Rocky Bleier RB 4
Gerry Mullins G 4
Larry Brown TE/T 4
Mike Wagner DE 4
J.T. Thomas DB 4
Loren Toews LB 4
Jon Kolb T 4
Sam Davis G 4
Steve Furness DT 4
Dwight White DE 4
Randy Grossman TE 4
Joe Greene DE 4
still active
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The QB handles the ball and distributes it on 99% of the offenses plays. He runs the offense.
The Bucs don't win the SB without Brady.
The center handles the ball and distributes it on 100% of the plays. He runs the offense. The Bucs don't win the SB without a center.
These are not arguments, they are just different ways of rephrasing "because, you know, quarterbacks". If I start from the assumption "because, you know, centers" I reach the same conclusions. Reaching the conclusion that you assumed initially is, what was the phrase?, masturbatory rehash, and nothing more.
Just so I understand, you are saying that counting rings is solid evidence of who is the best? Because I know quite a few people who think Lawrence Taylor was the greatest LB in history, and I don't see him anywhere on that list. Or does this only work for quarterbacks because, you know, quarterbacks?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
The QB handles the ball and distributes it on 99% of the offenses plays. He runs the offense.
The Bucs don't win the SB without Brady.
The center handles the ball and distributes it on 100% of the plays. He runs the offense. The Bucs don't win the SB without a center.
These are not arguments, they are just different ways of rephrasing "because, you know, quarterbacks". If I start from the assumption "because, you know, centers" I reach the same conclusions. Reaching the conclusion that you assumed initially is, what was the phrase?, masturbatory rehash, and nothing more.
Just so I understand, you are saying that counting rings is solid evidence of who is the best? Because I know quite a few people who think Lawrence Taylor was the greatest LB in history, and I don't see him anywhere on that list. Or does this only work for quarterbacks because, you know, quarterbacks?
Yep. I'm saying that Brady's 7 rings makes him the best QB to ever play the game. That and the mountains of individual records that he holds. The fact that he did it on two different teams and over a twenty year period. No other team mate has more then 3 rings. Oh and he has the highest winning percent of any athlete of all time in any sport. He plays the ultimate team sport but imho he stands above all others. Winning does count for something
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The QB handles the ball and distributes it on 99% of the offenses plays. He runs the offense.
The Bucs don't win the SB without Brady.
The center handles the ball and distributes it on 100% of the plays. He runs the offense. The Bucs don't win the SB without a center.
These are not arguments, they are just different ways of rephrasing "because, you know, quarterbacks". If I start from the assumption "because, you know, centers" I reach the same conclusions. Reaching the conclusion that you assumed initially is, what was the phrase?, masturbatory rehash, and nothing more.
Just so I understand, you are saying that counting rings is solid evidence of who is the best? Because I know quite a few people who think Lawrence Taylor was the greatest LB in history, and I don't see him anywhere on that list. Or does this only work for quarterbacks because, you know, quarterbacks?
Technically Dallas is right here about the center. But again I think we are playing games with semantics. Nonetheless, the center position is considered a key cog in the whole system. Centers are relied upon, greatly credited, and in today's game are paid handsomely well above the average spare lineman. Centers are usually extremely intelligent. And yes, they handle the ball for the most part on every play. And they often call out protections and assignments. As an aside, the weekly interviews with Travis Frederick on local sports radio here in Dallas/Fort Worth could yield some treasures. Anyway, the QB then also handles the ball, and distributes it . But unlike the center he is the only one on the field deciding where the ball goes. It should go without saying that QB control over their plays, influence on their offense, etc varies by a wild degree. Some QBs are just going through the motions, the script, following orders. Some have varying degrees of freedom to check in and out of plays, etc. And Brady sits on the far end of the scale, where he commands the offense as it moves down the field and can do so with complete autonomy. Because he is the field general.
The QB handles the ball and distributes it on 99% of the offenses plays. He runs the offense.
The Bucs don't win the SB without Brady.
The center handles the ball and distributes it on 100% of the plays. He runs the offense. The Bucs don't win the SB without a center.
These are not arguments, they are just different ways of rephrasing "because, you know, quarterbacks". If I start from the assumption "because, you know, centers" I reach the same conclusions. Reaching the conclusion that you assumed initially is, what was the phrase?, masturbatory rehash, and nothing more.
Just so I understand, you are saying that counting rings is solid evidence of who is the best? Because I know quite a few people who think Lawrence Taylor was the greatest LB in history, and I don't see him anywhere on that list. Or does this only work for quarterbacks because, you know, quarterbacks?
Yep. I'm saying that Brady's 7 rings makes him the best QB to ever play the game. That and the mountains of individual records that he holds. The fact that he did it on two different teams and over a twenty year period. No other team mate has more then 3 rings. Oh and he has the highest winning percent of any athlete of all time in any sport. He plays the ultimate team sport but imho he stands above all others. Winning does count for something
m
It is the culmination of all that he has done. The accomplishments cannot be statistically quantified. It just is. You either believe it or you don't.
Yep. I'm saying that Brady's 7 rings makes him the best QB to ever play the game. That and the mountains of individual records that he holds. The fact that he did it on two different teams and over a twenty year period. No other team mate has more then 3 rings. Oh and he has the highest winning percent of any athlete of all time in any sport. He plays the ultimate team sport but imho he stands above all others. Winning does count for something
And Charles Haley, who won the most rings by a LB and on two different teams, is the GOAT at LB? And Rocky Bleier and Franco Harris are co-GOATs at RB? Or just Brady because, you know, quarterbacks?
And I hope this is clear by now, but just in case, I have no objection at all to the belief that Brady is the GOAT. It is the belief that had he played for teams with bad defenses then he wouldn't be the GOAT that I find offensive. Winning counts for quite a bit - in a team game it tells you pretty conclusively who had the best team. As a measure of an individual player it tells you next to nothing, though.
The accomplishments cannot be statistically quantified. It just is. You either believe it or you don't.
You realize, don't you, that you are describing a religion? Or a cult? "Because, you know, Thetans" differs from "because, you know, quarterbacks" how, exactly?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Yep. I'm saying that Brady's 7 rings makes him the best QB to ever play the game. That and the mountains of individual records that he holds. The fact that he did it on two different teams and over a twenty year period. No other team mate has more then 3 rings. Oh and he has the highest winning percent of any athlete of all time in any sport. He plays the ultimate team sport but imho he stands above all others. Winning does count for something
And Charles Haley, who won the most rings by a LB and on two different teams, is the GOAT at LB? And Rocky Bleier and Franco Harris are co-GOATs at RB? Or just Brady because, you know, quarterbacks?
And I hope this is clear by now, but just in case, I have no objection at all to the belief that Brady is the GOAT. It is the belief that had he played for teams with bad defenses then he wouldn't be the GOAT that I find offensive. Winning counts for quite a bit - in a team game it tells you pretty conclusively who had the best team. As a measure of an individual player it tells you next to nothing, though.
You're just one dude with an opinion. What you may find offensive is your call. What you find no objection to is your thing. FYI your condescending tone scores you no points.
Again no other Patriot has more then 3 rings. Somehow Brady did it twice with two different groups of Pats. Plus for good measure one more in his first year with a new team. A team that gives Brady full credit for showing them how to win. Sorry no stat for that. But there is a record book full of stats with Brady's name written all over it if you please.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
And all I've said is that a QB is worth 5-7% of a team's accomplishment (without giving any credit to GMs for putting the pieces in place or coaching yet). Any QB, any team, and without a well oiled OL, any QB looks much worse (see Luck, Andrew his entire Indy career or Mahomes, Patrick last night at least). This is why evaluating QBs by winning % and rings is so idiotic I will no longer engage with people who think this is important.
I’ve stated it has a lot more to do with winning %’s and rings. But no matter what your argument is a QB’s value to a team is way more than your grudgingly appointed 7%. There are reasons QB’s are always the centerpiece of draft discussions year after year and a QB needy team puts so much emphasis on a top tier College or free agent QB. Unless you think everyone else is wrong lol
I'd say many would be better off fixing their OL first before wasting a dime on a top tier QB, if they actually care about winning and not just putting butts in seats. How many of those top QBs get washed out before they have an OL worth a TART?
ETA: OL men aren't worth anything, until you realize you don't have one.
Ok you and I are having two different conversations here. I have always said OL, DB and QB are the 3 most important positions in football but looking at the career of LT or even this years playoffs with Devin White being a PROBLEM I think I might be better off saying that any player can make a big difference if he is really “Great”. So that being said I’m open to having that discussion with you but the QB bring 7% of value really needs to be cleared up first. I will not remotely take you serious when your saying you could maybe be pushed to that 7% but really you stand at around 5%? Seriously????
Out of the 45% total I give for offense and 31.5% given to passing plays? Yes, 7% overall is nearly 25% of the allocation for passing plays and that's quite significant. Higher than that and you diminish every other offensive player to a negligible contribution. We saw how Brady did last year without anyone to throw to.
What is the QBs value on a handoff and how often to you run instead of pass?
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
@Justacommeman said:
Super Bowl rings. I'm sure it's just a mere coincidence that Brady has the most. No other Patriot won more then 3. Must be some kind of anomaly
Tom Brady* QB 7
Charles Haley LB 5
Ted Hendricks LB 4
Marv Fleming TE 4
Matt Millen LB 4
Bill Romanowski LB 4
Adam Vinatieri* K 4
Joe Montana QB 4
Keena Turner LB 4
Eric Wright CB 4
Mike Wilson WR 4
Ronnie Lott DB 4
Jesse Sapolu OL 4
Terry Bradshaw QB 4
Franco Harris FB 4
Lynn Swann WR 4
John Stallworth WR 4
Mel Blount DB 4
Jack Ham LB 4
Mike Webster C 4
Donnie Shell DB 4
L.C. Greenwood DE 4
Rocky Bleier RB 4
Gerry Mullins G 4
Larry Brown TE/T 4
Mike Wagner DE 4
J.T. Thomas DB 4
Loren Toews LB 4
Jon Kolb T 4
Sam Davis G 4
Steve Furness DT 4
Dwight White DE 4
Randy Grossman TE 4
Joe Greene DE 4
still active
To further your point, most of those multiple winners up there were with 'one team', i.e. the Steeler Dynasty held the majority of the same players. Brady did it with basically three different sets of teammates with New England, and then another set with Tampa. I don't think any Centers did anything like that.
Again, finding a player who is big and strong and can tackle is an easier commodity to find in the human race than finding a player who can do a pre snap read on defense, orchestrate the rest of his team properly as a result, THEN after the snap make the passing decision within two seconds with those giant men breathing down their neck, AND then being able to have the physical ability and touch to deliver the ball to make it catchable. That commodity is rare. That commodity when done to elite status has a far greater impact than ANY other commodity on the football field.
In fact, many starting players on the field are interchangeable with the teams' bench players, and the team doesn't miss a beat most of those times. Many of those players are completely non existent in several plays within the game. That includes number one receivers. Mike Evans could have zero catches and their team can still win handily. Brady's team isn't going to do anything if he has a zero contribution game.
Going to a backup QB in the game can be on a range from cringe worthy to passable. The rare few times where QB's are interchangeable within the same team is when your starting QB is a bad player, or you just happen to have a future HOFer on the bench because you drafted well(Favre/Rodgers). Those times are rare.
That doesn't even account for any leadership qualities yet that fall onto the QB, but it is true that some other vocal elite presences on the team can do that equally.
The vast majority of teams have to completely change the way they run their offense when the backup comes in. That is not remotely true if ANY other single player on the field comes out with injury.
Yes, we have seen defenses carry a QB to the Super Bowl, when that QB's job is to simply manage the game and not make a mistake(which by the way is still an ability that most backups could not do). That doesn't mean the elite QB's like Brady are only 5% of the team's success...lol.
Regardless of that, Brady is STILL the Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle of Qb's rolled up into one. He doesn't even have to have a single championship to claim the GOAT. He has enough on his resume to not even include that.
PS, as I explained in another thread, Brady and elite QB's like him who made teams great, could easily have better stats during the regular season if their team was in garbage time more and got to pad their stats, in constant shootouts, or in a team where the offensive philosophy is to gear the 'easy' stats toward the QB.
I've seen Troy Aikman get ripped here. You know why his three Super Bowls count? Because being on that great team suppressed his stats. How high would his QB rating be if he was on a run and shoot offense? How high would it be if he was on a team with a BAD defense and his team was constantly throwing and racking up TD's and yards, many in garbage time like?
Or simply, all Aikman had to do was throw more 4 yd touchdown passes instead of handing the ball to Emmitt, and then his QB rating would SKYROCKET. That would be a simple fix that would change his rating from where it was and into Steve Young(who was in an offense that pushed the stats toward the QB).
So when you compare Warren Moon's stats to Aikman and say Moon was just as good....keep all that in mind, because Aikman did his in a framework of winning, which often precludes the QB from racking up meaningless or easy stat padding games. So yes, Aikman's rings DO matter in any conversation.
Take Brady off his seven Championship teams. Replace him with the previous QB or his backup. Your choice. How many of these teams still win the Championship?
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
BTW, I offered no percentage, I did say HUGE impact. You agree with me. Giving a single player 20% of the impact on a football team IS a huge impact.
20% is still way too high, just saying anyone who thinks the QB is worth more than that is so unreasonable it's not even worth having a discussion with them. Much like those who think team winning % or # of SB rings matters in ranking QBs. I'm more in the 5% camp though you could possibly talk me up to 7.
Color me unreasonable. I think the same of your post
The QB has to check in and out of calls at the line or scrimmage based on reading the formation. Pass to run. Run to pass. He has to call out where the rush may be coming from. He moves his receivers. He moved his tight ends. He moves his running backs. Then once the snap happens he has to re read the coverage to see who has dropped of and who might be blitzing. Oh, and then he has 2.5 seconds to make the right read and actually deliver the ball when he passes. There's more but you get the gist.
I have no idea of % but its more then you are giving credit to.
m
Let's say overall/on average game credit should be distributed something like: 45% offense, 45% defense, 10% special teams. QB is immediately out of 55% of the credit since they're not on the field for defense or special teams, in the modern era at least. How much credit does a QB deserve for running plays where they are not the runner? That's say, 30% of the offensive plays, where I allocate 0% to the QB. Maybe others differ, but you can't allocate much to the QB for that as anyone at that level should be expected to hand the ball off successfully.
That only leaves 31.5% of the overall game credit available for the entire offense on passing plays and the offensive line deserves a decent chunk of that, IMHO, to give the QB 2.5 seconds. It's hard to complete a pass without someone catching it, not to mention the other skill players either blocking or giving the QB options of where to go. If you can divvy that up and get the QB to 20% of game credit, that's nearly twice as much as the other 10 guys combined on offensive passing plays, completely diminishing their contributions that make a QB successful.
Continue. Show the breakdown of each position and their value.
Then whichever value you come up with...multiply it by 230 wins and Brady is still going to have the highest value of any football player to have ever stepped onto the field. He will also have the highest value of any baseball player respective to their sport. So basically, it comes down to Brady or Jordan(or Lebron) as the best athlete ever. So that is where the argument moves. Your method has cemented Brady as the best football player ever. Now it is on to Jordan vs Brady.
I've already stated my number, QB is about 5% of the value of a team, so Brady is worth about 11.5 wins by your method (not an endorsement of just multiplying value by wins method, mind you). If you can get me to concede to 7%, he's up to 16.1.
But, Brady is so GOATy, I'm sure he's the reason the Chiefs punter gifted TB field position with his massive punts of 27 & 29 yards and made him so nervous he dropped a snap. So we should probably throw him an extra 10% just for his special teams work yesterday.
I’m really not trying to be combative here but I have to say that this might be one of the most ridiculously moronic posts I’ve ever seen here. Certainly right up there with anything questioning Brady and his GOAT status.
Come up with your won allocation and present an argument then, so far I've seen that Brady is taller and weighs more, so he's better than Montana
LOL surely you jest. I don’t need to invent some hypothetical percentages that I conjure up In my head, all you need to do is look at all the stats and accomplishments between Cool Joe and The GOAT online and you will see that it’s not a photo finish lol
Yep. I'm saying that Brady's 7 rings makes him the best QB to ever play the game. That and the mountains of individual records that he holds. The fact that he did it on two different teams and over a twenty year period. No other team mate has more then 3 rings. Oh and he has the highest winning percent of any athlete of all time in any sport. He plays the ultimate team sport but imho he stands above all others. Winning does count for something
And Charles Haley, who won the most rings by a LB and on two different teams, is the GOAT at LB? And Rocky Bleier and Franco Harris are co-GOATs at RB? Or just Brady because, you know, quarterbacks?
And I hope this is clear by now, but just in case, I have no objection at all to the belief that Brady is the GOAT. It is the belief that had he played for teams with bad defenses then he wouldn't be the GOAT that I find offensive. Winning counts for quite a bit - in a team game it tells you pretty conclusively who had the best team. As a measure of an individual player it tells you next to nothing, though.
You're just one dude with an opinion. What you may find offensive is your call. What you find no objection to is your thing. FYI your condescending tone scores you no points.
Again no other Patriot has more then 3 rings. Somehow Brady did it twice with two different groups of Pats. Plus for good measure one more in his first year with a new team. A team that gives Brady full credit for showing them how to win. Sorry no stat for that. But there is a record book full of stats with Brady's name written all over it if you please.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
m
This is absolutely correct. it is not JUST SB rings, but that is an indicator. Brady has all the regular season statistics a GOAT should have, he has regular season MVPs etc. BUT, he also has a post-season career like no one else. and, honestly, the postseason is why they play the games. When one player plays consistently high level, in the highest leverage, most important time of the year, you get a very good indication of his greatness.
when one player does that for a TWENTY YEAR period with a plethora of different teammates and two different teams a number of times that FAR outpaces the next most successful postseason player you have a very good indication that you are looking at the GOAT.
when you can add in the regular season accolades and records you have enough evidence and body of work to know that one player has produced on an very top tier level for an unprecidented amount of time.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
Yes. I just lumped that in with multitude of personal records. I was going to list them all out with his awards but then it would have been as long as one of Dallas's posts and no one would read it all. Know your audience.
BTW Super Bowl 55 was basically won in the first half when Brady went 16-20 with 3 TDs. He's no Andy Dalton but he's pretty good
m
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Some more Brady love...just to drive the guys crazy on both sides of the fence. Brady was viewed as a legit left handed power hitting catching prospect and was drafted by the Montreal Expos in 1995.
Dallasactuary, he said his favorite player was Gene Tenace. JK on Tenace.
It puts Brady into another elite category as people drafted into two major sports, further cementing his athletic ability.
No wonder he has a cannon and has leadership qualities that compel others to play better.
Using Dallasactuary's words, catching is brutal on the knees and takes its toll on the body of a part time catcher like Tenace....maybe Brady could have been even better and ran for more yards than he did based on that theory.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
Welker went to 5 straight pro bowls. Funny thing, he had Randy and Wes for three full seasons and didn't win a SB. Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008.
Top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
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So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
Welker went to 5 straight pro bowls. Funny thing, he had Randy and Wes for three full seasons and didn't win a SB. Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008.
Top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
Welker went to 5 straight pro bowls. Funny thing, he had Randy and Wes for three full seasons and didn't win a SB. Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008.
Top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
Brady made it only half way through the first quarter of the first game in 2008. This is the anomaly in his career in terms of availability and playoff attendance. That was the season after 16-0, 18-1. He did not play a snap in the preseason, and the excuse was a foot ailment if I remember correctly.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
Welker went to 5 straight pro bowls. Funny thing, he had Randy and Wes for three full seasons and didn't win a SB. Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008.
Yeah, Brady NOT PLAYING might have had some influence on the Patriots not making the playoffs that year.
@thisistheshow said:
Brady made it only half way through the first quarter of the first game in 2008. This is the anomaly in his career in terms of availability and playoff attendance. That was the season after 16-0, 18-1. He did not play a snap in the preseason, and the excuse was a foot ailment if I remember correctly.
Correct. At the end of ‘08...
...cause here’s the beginning g of ‘08...
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Sorry, if I was a Brady worshiper, I certainly would have known that.
The point still remains that he didn't win a championship with a couple of HOF receivers in 2007 and 2009. He played horribly in the 2009 playoff loss to the Ravens.
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Sorry, if I was a Brady worshiper, I certainly would have known that.
The point still remains that he didn't win a championship with a couple of HOF receivers in 2007 and 2009. He played horribly in the 2009 playoff loss to the Ravens.
Even though your not a Patriots or Brady worshiping type of guy you don’t get a free pass when your wrong. The only HOF receiver he had was your boy Randy Moss from 2007-2009. And in that 2009 loss his receivers were Moss and a couple of nobody’s named Sam Aiken, Chris Baker and a rookie Edelman, Welker was on injured reserve.
Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
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Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Agreed that he played poorly, nobody can deny that. And I will accept your point about the D, I know it’s a team game but you also know where I stand with Brady ect.. no need to read hash that. I got nothing but respect for Manning, Brees and Ofcourse Ken Anderson! We cannot have any QB conversation without his name being mentioned 😂👍👍
Please consider a different title for your thread... GOAT should be modified to Modern era and if we are unable to agree on when the modern era begins, hopefully we can agree on limiting the discussion to from the first SuperBowl to the present. And if we limit the discussion to that, I am not going to argue as Brady has demonstrated he is worthy of being considered the best.
There are two footnotes worthy to mention especially because Montana is often considered as well. And both of these footnote games were college games. I will always remember Montana for the great Cotton Bowl comeback against Houston... behind 34-12 and pulling out a great comeback leading Notre Dame to an amazing win 35-34. This game is legendary.
Tom Brady's UM team in 1999 had a 27-7 lead against Illinois late in the third quarter. Michigan was a 25 point favorite playing at Ann Arbor and lost in what was perhaps one of the greatest comebacks in Big Ten history. Illinois went on to win 35-29. And this game should be legendary as Montana's comeback as Michigan finished the season 10-2 and beat Alabama in a 35-34 nail biter in the Orange Bowl. However... I suspect very few remember this game...even Tom Brady. While Brady's name is all over the Michigan record book, I suspect this game may have a place in that book for loosing a 20 point lead at home relatively late in the game
I bring these games up because sports fans in general seem to have a selective memory when it comes to greatness. And part of the untold story is that Illinois quarterback, later in his career as a senior, did not receive one Heisman Trophy vote.
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@coinkat said:
Please consider a different title for your thread... GOAT should be modified to Modern era and if we are unable to agree on when the modern era begins, hopefully we can agree on limiting the discussion to from the first SuperBowl to the present. And if we limit the discussion to that, I am not going to argue as Brady has demonstrated he is worthy of being considered the best.
There are two footnotes worthy to mention especially because Montana is often considered as well. And both of these footnote games were college games. I will always remember Montana for the great Cotton Bowl comeback against Houston... behind 34-12 and pulling out a great comeback leading Notre Dame to an amazing win 35-34. This game is legendary.
Tom Brady's UM team in 1999 had a 27-7 lead against Illinois late in the third quarter. Michigan was a 25 point favorite playing at Ann Arbor and lost in what was perhaps one of the greatest comebacks in Big Ten history. Illinois went on to win 35-29. And this game should be legendary as Montana's comeback as Michigan finished the season 10-2 and beat Alabama in a 35-34 nail biter in the Orange Bowl. However... I suspect very few remember this game...even Tom Brady. While Brady's name is all over the Michigan record book, I suspect this game may have a place in that book for loosing a 20 point lead at home relatively late in the game
I bring these games up because sports fans in general seem to have a selective memory when it comes to greatness. And part of the untold story is that Illinois quarterback, later in his career as a senior, did not receive one Heisman Trophy vote.
Points well taken but I shall counterpoint that Brady was a teenager during that Michigan meltdown and if he doesn’t deserve all the credit for winning he certainly shouldn’t get penalized for his fellow teenage teammates on D playing terrible enough for him to lose that game. As far as defining the modern era from the first Super Bowl? It’s tough because the 2020 Jaguars would beat the 67 Packers.
@coinkat said:
Please consider a different title for your thread... GOAT should be modified to Modern era and if we are unable to agree on when the modern era begins, hopefully we can agree on limiting the discussion to from the first SuperBowl to the present. And if we limit the discussion to that, I am not going to argue as Brady has demonstrated he is worthy of being considered the best.
There are two footnotes worthy to mention especially because Montana is often considered as well. And both of these footnote games were college games. I will always remember Montana for the great Cotton Bowl comeback against Houston... behind 34-12 and pulling out a great comeback leading Notre Dame to an amazing win 35-34. This game is legendary.
Tom Brady's UM team in 1999 had a 27-7 lead against Illinois late in the third quarter. Michigan was a 25 point favorite playing at Ann Arbor and lost in what was perhaps one of the greatest comebacks in Big Ten history. Illinois went on to win 35-29. And this game should be legendary as Montana's comeback as Michigan finished the season 10-2 and beat Alabama in a 35-34 nail biter in the Orange Bowl. However... I suspect very few remember this game...even Tom Brady. While Brady's name is all over the Michigan record book, I suspect this game may have a place in that book for loosing a 20 point lead at home relatively late in the game
I bring these games up because sports fans in general seem to have a selective memory when it comes to greatness. And part of the untold story is that Illinois quarterback, later in his career as a senior, did not receive one Heisman Trophy vote.
Points well taken but I shall counterpoint that Brady was a teenager during that Michigan meltdown and if he doesn’t deserve all the credit for winning he certainly shouldn’t get penalized for his fellow teenage teammates on D playing terrible enough for him to lose that game. As far as defining the modern era from the first Super Bowl? It’s tough because the 2020 Jaguars would beat the 67 Packers.
I was at that Illinois game. It was painful. The defense had a total meltdown. It just snowballed. Trust me no one blamed Brady and rightfully so. I was also at the Orange Bowl and watched Michigan beat Alabama 35-34 in a wild crazy game. I remember saying this Brady kid has the "it" factor. Little did I know.
Brady had a hard enough time starting at Michigan he battled with highly rated Drew Henson. They split a lot of time. Henson was the can't miss not Brady. Drew ended up going to the Yankees and into obscurity. He also played for 3 teams in the NFL. Brady went on to goatness
m
More on Henson
Henson accepted a football scholarship from the University of Michigan. As a freshman under head coach Lloyd Carr, Henson battled for the starting quarterback job against Tom Brady and ultimately was named the back up.
In 1999, Brady had to once again hold off Henson for the starting job. The two players platooned during the season's first seven games, with Brady playing the first quarter, Henson the second and Carr then deciding upon a quarterback for the second half. The team started off with a 5–0 record. Against Michigan State, Henson in the second quarter connected with Marcus Knight for the third longest passing play in school history (an 81-yard touchdown completion); so he was chosen to play in the second half; however, Brady was reinserted into the game in the fourth quarter with Michigan down by 17 points, and nearly led the team all the way back before losing 34–31.[3] After a 300-yard passing game the following week, Carr went exclusively with Brady for the remainder of the season. Henson still saw his number of pass attempts nearly double, throwing 90 times and completing 47 passes. He recorded 546 passing yards, along with three touchdowns and two interceptions in nine appearances.[2] Henson again saw limited action when Michigan took on another bowl opponent with a higher ranking, #5 Alabama, in the Orange Bowl, and came out victorious with a 35–34 OT victory.
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I am merely using both of those games as examples of what is remembered... I remember both of those college games quite well. Brady clearly was not the sole cause of Michigan's loss... but that really is not my point. We are discussing greatness and greatness registers differently with sports fans over time. I suspect that even though the ND-Houston game was played earlier than the UM-Illinois game, most sports fans will have close to zero recollection of the UM-Illinois game in contrast to those that will remember Montana's performance.
Brady is great and as I wrote, he deserves the title as the greatest QB in the SuperBowl era that dates back to 1967. I don't think comparing him to Otto Graham, as an example, is an apples to apples comparison.
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Not to put you on the spot, but do you remember the Illinois QB... And I suspect you would be the one person on the forum that would remember this game... obviously, I had no way of knowing that you were there in Ann Arbor for the game.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Because someone had a bad game or even a slump does not take away their body of work over the years. I believe Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods have missed cuts in their careers. Is their anyone who thinks they are not at the top of the list of GOAT. Brady may not have padded his stats but he did what he needed to do to win SEVEN times. Who else has done this? (besides Graham )
Not to put you on the spot, but do you remember the Illinois QB... And I suspect you would be the one person on the forum that would remember this game... obviously, I had no way of knowing that you were there in Ann Arbor for the game.
Unfortunately I do. John Kitner ( sp?). But what I remember most was your running back Harvey in that game.
In the Orange Bowl Brady was the star. He threw for 360 + yards and 4 TD's . That was a lot for that time. Shaun Alexander for Alabama carried the Tide and Michigan defenders on his back the entire game. He single handedly kept them in the game
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@coinkat said:
Please consider a different title for your thread... GOAT should be modified to Modern era and if we are unable to agree on when the modern era begins, hopefully we can agree on limiting the discussion to from the first SuperBowl to the present. And if we limit the discussion to that, I am not going to argue as Brady has demonstrated he is worthy of being considered the best.
There are two footnotes worthy to mention especially because Montana is often considered as well. And both of these footnote games were college games. I will always remember Montana for the great Cotton Bowl comeback against Houston... behind 34-12 and pulling out a great comeback leading Notre Dame to an amazing win 35-34. This game is legendary.
Tom Brady's UM team in 1999 had a 27-7 lead against Illinois late in the third quarter. Michigan was a 25 point favorite playing at Ann Arbor and lost in what was perhaps one of the greatest comebacks in Big Ten history. Illinois went on to win 35-29. And this game should be legendary as Montana's comeback as Michigan finished the season 10-2 and beat Alabama in a 35-34 nail biter in the Orange Bowl. However... I suspect very few remember this game...even Tom Brady. While Brady's name is all over the Michigan record book, I suspect this game may have a place in that book for loosing a 20 point lead at home relatively late in the game
I bring these games up because sports fans in general seem to have a selective memory when it comes to greatness. And part of the untold story is that Illinois quarterback, later in his career as a senior, did not receive one Heisman Trophy vote.
Points well taken but I shall counterpoint that Brady was a teenager during that Michigan meltdown and if he doesn’t deserve all the credit for winning he certainly shouldn’t get penalized for his fellow teenage teammates on D playing terrible enough for him to lose that game. As far as defining the modern era from the first Super Bowl? It’s tough because the 2020 Jaguars would beat the 67 Packers.
I was at that Illinois game. It was painful. The defense had a total meltdown. It just snowballed. Trust me no one blamed Brady and rightfully so. I was also at the Orange Bowl and watched Michigan beat Alabama 35-34 in a wild crazy game. I remember saying this Brady kid has the "it" factor. Little did I know.
Brady had a hard enough time starting at Michigan he battled with highly rated Drew Henson. They split a lot of time. Henson was the can't miss not Brady. Drew ended up going to the Yankees and into obscurity. He also played for 3 teams in the NFL. Brady went on to goatness
m
More on Henson
Henson accepted a football scholarship from the University of Michigan. As a freshman under head coach Lloyd Carr, Henson battled for the starting quarterback job against Tom Brady and ultimately was named the back up.
In 1999, Brady had to once again hold off Henson for the starting job. The two players platooned during the season's first seven games, with Brady playing the first quarter, Henson the second and Carr then deciding upon a quarterback for the second half. The team started off with a 5–0 record. Against Michigan State, Henson in the second quarter connected with Marcus Knight for the third longest passing play in school history (an 81-yard touchdown completion); so he was chosen to play in the second half; however, Brady was reinserted into the game in the fourth quarter with Michigan down by 17 points, and nearly led the team all the way back before losing 34–31.[3] After a 300-yard passing game the following week, Carr went exclusively with Brady for the remainder of the season. Henson still saw his number of pass attempts nearly double, throwing 90 times and completing 47 passes. He recorded 546 passing yards, along with three touchdowns and two interceptions in nine appearances.[2] Henson again saw limited action when Michigan took on another bowl opponent with a higher ranking, #5 Alabama, in the Orange Bowl, and came out victorious with a 35–34 OT victory.
That is crazy you were at that game. Are you a Michigan Alumni? Drew Henson cost teams a lot of money for NOTHING
Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Your point that brady has never won a SB without having a great defense could be said about the vast majority of SB winners. I only have numbers through 2014, but of all SB winning teams through 14, only 4 had a defense ranked below #13. only 7 winning teams had a defense outside the top 10. so yes, most SB winners have the luxury of a great defense. its not just Brady.
just to add, in Montanas 4 SB's, the 49ers defenses ranked: 2,1,8 and 3rd. it seems everything said about Bradys defenses could be applied equally to Joe Cool.
Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Your point that brady has never won a SB without having a great defense could be said about the vast majority of SB winners. I only have numbers through 2014, but of all SB winning teams through 14, only 4 had a defense ranked below #13. only 7 winning teams had a defense outside the top 10. so yes, most SB winners have the luxury of a great defense. its not just Brady.
just to add, in Montanas 4 SB's, the 49ers defenses ranked: 2,1,8 and 3rd. it seems everything said about Bradys defenses could be applied equally to Joe Cool.
Comments
If Brady can win it next season for #8 I'd give him the nod over Bob Griese...
It depends on the play. Did the QB see something he didn’t like and audible to a run play? Was a run play called and the QB audibled because he saw a potential mismatch and he wanted to
Exploit it?
And there's the rub, that makes all stats irrelevant (as far as attributing outcome to a single player) and we have to rely on the "eye test". As far as adjusting behind center, Brady was the second best of his generation at the "eye test" IMHO.
Im guessing you are kidding. Manning played on a lot of great teams. Yet he managed to go a pedestrian 14-13 in the playoffs. Brady's teams you ask? 34-11 with 7 hoists of the trophy. No contest unless you have crazy eyes
m
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Winning %
Attributed solely to the QB 
Again 
My point was Manning's teams were 14-13 in the playoffs. Brady's 34-11. They both played on great teams. Fill in the rest of blanks however you want.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Super Bowl rings. I'm sure it's just a mere coincidence that Brady has the most. No other Patriot won more then 3. Must be some kind of anomaly
Tom Brady* QB 7
Charles Haley LB 5
Ted Hendricks LB 4
Marv Fleming TE 4
Matt Millen LB 4
Bill Romanowski LB 4
Adam Vinatieri* K 4
Joe Montana QB 4
Keena Turner LB 4
Eric Wright CB 4
Mike Wilson WR 4
Ronnie Lott DB 4
Jesse Sapolu OL 4
Terry Bradshaw QB 4
Franco Harris FB 4
Lynn Swann WR 4
John Stallworth WR 4
Mel Blount DB 4
Jack Ham LB 4
Mike Webster C 4
Donnie Shell DB 4
L.C. Greenwood DE 4
Rocky Bleier RB 4
Gerry Mullins G 4
Larry Brown TE/T 4
Mike Wagner DE 4
J.T. Thomas DB 4
Loren Toews LB 4
Jon Kolb T 4
Sam Davis G 4
Steve Furness DT 4
Dwight White DE 4
Randy Grossman TE 4
Joe Greene DE 4
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The center handles the ball and distributes it on 100% of the plays. He runs the offense. The Bucs don't win the SB without a center.
These are not arguments, they are just different ways of rephrasing "because, you know, quarterbacks". If I start from the assumption "because, you know, centers" I reach the same conclusions. Reaching the conclusion that you assumed initially is, what was the phrase?, masturbatory rehash, and nothing more.
Just so I understand, you are saying that counting rings is solid evidence of who is the best? Because I know quite a few people who think Lawrence Taylor was the greatest LB in history, and I don't see him anywhere on that list. Or does this only work for quarterbacks because, you know, quarterbacks?
@dallasactuary
Masturbatory rehash?
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Yep. I'm saying that Brady's 7 rings makes him the best QB to ever play the game. That and the mountains of individual records that he holds. The fact that he did it on two different teams and over a twenty year period. No other team mate has more then 3 rings. Oh and he has the highest winning percent of any athlete of all time in any sport. He plays the ultimate team sport but imho he stands above all others. Winning does count for something
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Technically Dallas is right here about the center. But again I think we are playing games with semantics. Nonetheless, the center position is considered a key cog in the whole system. Centers are relied upon, greatly credited, and in today's game are paid handsomely well above the average spare lineman. Centers are usually extremely intelligent. And yes, they handle the ball for the most part on every play. And they often call out protections and assignments. As an aside, the weekly interviews with Travis Frederick on local sports radio here in Dallas/Fort Worth could yield some treasures. Anyway, the QB then also handles the ball, and distributes it . But unlike the center he is the only one on the field deciding where the ball goes. It should go without saying that QB control over their plays, influence on their offense, etc varies by a wild degree. Some QBs are just going through the motions, the script, following orders. Some have varying degrees of freedom to check in and out of plays, etc. And Brady sits on the far end of the scale, where he commands the offense as it moves down the field and can do so with complete autonomy. Because he is the field general.
It is the culmination of all that he has done. The accomplishments cannot be statistically quantified. It just is. You either believe it or you don't.
And Charles Haley, who won the most rings by a LB and on two different teams, is the GOAT at LB? And Rocky Bleier and Franco Harris are co-GOATs at RB? Or just Brady because, you know, quarterbacks?
And I hope this is clear by now, but just in case, I have no objection at all to the belief that Brady is the GOAT. It is the belief that had he played for teams with bad defenses then he wouldn't be the GOAT that I find offensive. Winning counts for quite a bit - in a team game it tells you pretty conclusively who had the best team. As a measure of an individual player it tells you next to nothing, though.
You realize, don't you, that you are describing a religion? Or a cult? "Because, you know, Thetans" differs from "because, you know, quarterbacks" how, exactly?
You're just one dude with an opinion. What you may find offensive is your call. What you find no objection to is your thing. FYI your condescending tone scores you no points.
Again no other Patriot has more then 3 rings. Somehow Brady did it twice with two different groups of Pats. Plus for good measure one more in his first year with a new team. A team that gives Brady full credit for showing them how to win. Sorry no stat for that. But there is a record book full of stats with Brady's name written all over it if you please.
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
To further your point, most of those multiple winners up there were with 'one team', i.e. the Steeler Dynasty held the majority of the same players. Brady did it with basically three different sets of teammates with New England, and then another set with Tampa. I don't think any Centers did anything like that.
Again, finding a player who is big and strong and can tackle is an easier commodity to find in the human race than finding a player who can do a pre snap read on defense, orchestrate the rest of his team properly as a result, THEN after the snap make the passing decision within two seconds with those giant men breathing down their neck, AND then being able to have the physical ability and touch to deliver the ball to make it catchable. That commodity is rare. That commodity when done to elite status has a far greater impact than ANY other commodity on the football field.
In fact, many starting players on the field are interchangeable with the teams' bench players, and the team doesn't miss a beat most of those times. Many of those players are completely non existent in several plays within the game. That includes number one receivers. Mike Evans could have zero catches and their team can still win handily. Brady's team isn't going to do anything if he has a zero contribution game.
Going to a backup QB in the game can be on a range from cringe worthy to passable. The rare few times where QB's are interchangeable within the same team is when your starting QB is a bad player, or you just happen to have a future HOFer on the bench because you drafted well(Favre/Rodgers). Those times are rare.
That doesn't even account for any leadership qualities yet that fall onto the QB, but it is true that some other vocal elite presences on the team can do that equally.
The vast majority of teams have to completely change the way they run their offense when the backup comes in. That is not remotely true if ANY other single player on the field comes out with injury.
Yes, we have seen defenses carry a QB to the Super Bowl, when that QB's job is to simply manage the game and not make a mistake(which by the way is still an ability that most backups could not do). That doesn't mean the elite QB's like Brady are only 5% of the team's success...lol.
Regardless of that, Brady is STILL the Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle of Qb's rolled up into one. He doesn't even have to have a single championship to claim the GOAT. He has enough on his resume to not even include that.
PS, as I explained in another thread, Brady and elite QB's like him who made teams great, could easily have better stats during the regular season if their team was in garbage time more and got to pad their stats, in constant shootouts, or in a team where the offensive philosophy is to gear the 'easy' stats toward the QB.
I've seen Troy Aikman get ripped here. You know why his three Super Bowls count? Because being on that great team suppressed his stats. How high would his QB rating be if he was on a run and shoot offense? How high would it be if he was on a team with a BAD defense and his team was constantly throwing and racking up TD's and yards, many in garbage time like?
Or simply, all Aikman had to do was throw more 4 yd touchdown passes instead of handing the ball to Emmitt, and then his QB rating would SKYROCKET. That would be a simple fix that would change his rating from where it was and into Steve Young(who was in an offense that pushed the stats toward the QB).
So when you compare Warren Moon's stats to Aikman and say Moon was just as good....keep all that in mind, because Aikman did his in a framework of winning, which often precludes the QB from racking up meaningless or easy stat padding games. So yes, Aikman's rings DO matter in any conversation.
We have just seen what happens when you play without a Left Tackle.
Take Brady off his seven Championship teams. Replace him with the previous QB or his backup. Your choice. How many of these teams still win the Championship?
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Ralph
This is absolutely correct. it is not JUST SB rings, but that is an indicator. Brady has all the regular season statistics a GOAT should have, he has regular season MVPs etc. BUT, he also has a post-season career like no one else. and, honestly, the postseason is why they play the games. When one player plays consistently high level, in the highest leverage, most important time of the year, you get a very good indication of his greatness.
when one player does that for a TWENTY YEAR period with a plethora of different teammates and two different teams a number of times that FAR outpaces the next most successful postseason player you have a very good indication that you are looking at the GOAT.
when you can add in the regular season accolades and records you have enough evidence and body of work to know that one player has produced on an very top tier level for an unprecidented amount of time.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thunder stolen
It was intended as an homage; from now on it will be "masturbatory rehash ©".
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
Eric
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With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
Yes. I just lumped that in with multitude of personal records. I was going to list them all out with his awards but then it would have been as long as one of Dallas's posts and no one would read it all. Know your audience.
BTW Super Bowl 55 was basically won in the first half when Brady went 16-20 with 3 TDs. He's no Andy Dalton but he's pretty good
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2713141-before-the-goat-tom-brady-could-have-been-one-of-the-greatest-catchers-ever
Some more Brady love...just to drive the guys crazy on both sides of the fence. Brady was viewed as a legit left handed power hitting catching prospect and was drafted by the Montreal Expos in 1995.
Dallasactuary, he said his favorite player was Gene Tenace. JK on Tenace.
It puts Brady into another elite category as people drafted into two major sports, further cementing his athletic ability.
No wonder he has a cannon
and has leadership qualities that compel others to play better.
Using Dallasactuary's words, catching is brutal on the knees and takes its toll on the body of a part time catcher like Tenace....maybe Brady could have been even better and ran for more yards than he did based on that theory.
Welker went to 5 straight pro bowls. Funny thing, he had Randy and Wes for three full seasons and didn't win a SB. Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008.
Top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
Troy Brown was pretty damn close to what a Hall of Famer should be for overall play.
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With Tom throwing to him on offense he was much better. Overall play he was outstanding, special teams and being inserted on D
Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008... 🤔
His best two receivers and didn't make playoffs?
Seems unbelievable! He does BETTER without HOFers to throw to.
Eric
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I think near the end of 2008, he hurt his knee.
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Brady made it only half way through the first quarter of the first game in 2008. This is the anomaly in his career in terms of availability and playoff attendance. That was the season after 16-0, 18-1. He did not play a snap in the preseason, and the excuse was a foot ailment if I remember correctly.
Yeah, Brady NOT PLAYING might have had some influence on the Patriots not making the playoffs that year.
Correct. At the end of ‘08...
...cause here’s the beginning g of ‘08...
😂😂😂
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Sorry, if I was a Brady worshiper, I certainly would have known that.
The point still remains that he didn't win a championship with a couple of HOF receivers in 2007 and 2009. He played horribly in the 2009 playoff loss to the Ravens.
Even though your not a Patriots or Brady worshiping type of guy you don’t get a free pass when your wrong. The only HOF receiver he had was your boy Randy Moss from 2007-2009. And in that 2009 loss his receivers were Moss and a couple of nobody’s named Sam Aiken, Chris Baker and a rookie Edelman, Welker was on injured reserve.
Point taken.
Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Agreed that he played poorly, nobody can deny that. And I will accept your point about the D, I know it’s a team game but you also know where I stand with Brady ect.. no need to read hash that. I got nothing but respect for Manning, Brees and Ofcourse Ken Anderson! We cannot have any QB conversation without his name being mentioned 😂👍👍
Please consider a different title for your thread... GOAT should be modified to Modern era and if we are unable to agree on when the modern era begins, hopefully we can agree on limiting the discussion to from the first SuperBowl to the present. And if we limit the discussion to that, I am not going to argue as Brady has demonstrated he is worthy of being considered the best.
There are two footnotes worthy to mention especially because Montana is often considered as well. And both of these footnote games were college games. I will always remember Montana for the great Cotton Bowl comeback against Houston... behind 34-12 and pulling out a great comeback leading Notre Dame to an amazing win 35-34. This game is legendary.
Tom Brady's UM team in 1999 had a 27-7 lead against Illinois late in the third quarter. Michigan was a 25 point favorite playing at Ann Arbor and lost in what was perhaps one of the greatest comebacks in Big Ten history. Illinois went on to win 35-29. And this game should be legendary as Montana's comeback as Michigan finished the season 10-2 and beat Alabama in a 35-34 nail biter in the Orange Bowl. However... I suspect very few remember this game...even Tom Brady. While Brady's name is all over the Michigan record book, I suspect this game may have a place in that book for loosing a 20 point lead at home relatively late in the game
I bring these games up because sports fans in general seem to have a selective memory when it comes to greatness. And part of the untold story is that Illinois quarterback, later in his career as a senior, did not receive one Heisman Trophy vote.
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Points well taken but I shall counterpoint that Brady was a teenager during that Michigan meltdown and if he doesn’t deserve all the credit for winning he certainly shouldn’t get penalized for his fellow teenage teammates on D playing terrible enough for him to lose that game. As far as defining the modern era from the first Super Bowl? It’s tough because the 2020 Jaguars would beat the 67 Packers.
I was at that Illinois game. It was painful. The defense had a total meltdown. It just snowballed. Trust me no one blamed Brady and rightfully so. I was also at the Orange Bowl and watched Michigan beat Alabama 35-34 in a wild crazy game. I remember saying this Brady kid has the "it" factor. Little did I know.
Brady had a hard enough time starting at Michigan he battled with highly rated Drew Henson. They split a lot of time. Henson was the can't miss not Brady. Drew ended up going to the Yankees and into obscurity. He also played for 3 teams in the NFL. Brady went on to goatness
m
More on Henson
Henson accepted a football scholarship from the University of Michigan. As a freshman under head coach Lloyd Carr, Henson battled for the starting quarterback job against Tom Brady and ultimately was named the back up.
In 1999, Brady had to once again hold off Henson for the starting job. The two players platooned during the season's first seven games, with Brady playing the first quarter, Henson the second and Carr then deciding upon a quarterback for the second half. The team started off with a 5–0 record. Against Michigan State, Henson in the second quarter connected with Marcus Knight for the third longest passing play in school history (an 81-yard touchdown completion); so he was chosen to play in the second half; however, Brady was reinserted into the game in the fourth quarter with Michigan down by 17 points, and nearly led the team all the way back before losing 34–31.[3] After a 300-yard passing game the following week, Carr went exclusively with Brady for the remainder of the season. Henson still saw his number of pass attempts nearly double, throwing 90 times and completing 47 passes. He recorded 546 passing yards, along with three touchdowns and two interceptions in nine appearances.[2] Henson again saw limited action when Michigan took on another bowl opponent with a higher ranking, #5 Alabama, in the Orange Bowl, and came out victorious with a 35–34 OT victory.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am merely using both of those games as examples of what is remembered... I remember both of those college games quite well. Brady clearly was not the sole cause of Michigan's loss... but that really is not my point. We are discussing greatness and greatness registers differently with sports fans over time. I suspect that even though the ND-Houston game was played earlier than the UM-Illinois game, most sports fans will have close to zero recollection of the UM-Illinois game in contrast to those that will remember Montana's performance.
Brady is great and as I wrote, he deserves the title as the greatest QB in the SuperBowl era that dates back to 1967. I don't think comparing him to Otto Graham, as an example, is an apples to apples comparison.
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@Justacommeman
Not to put you on the spot, but do you remember the Illinois QB... And I suspect you would be the one person on the forum that would remember this game... obviously, I had no way of knowing that you were there in Ann Arbor for the game.
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Because someone had a bad game or even a slump does not take away their body of work over the years. I believe Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods have missed cuts in their careers. Is their anyone who thinks they are not at the top of the list of GOAT. Brady may not have padded his stats but he did what he needed to do to win SEVEN times. Who else has done this? (besides Graham
)
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Ralph
Unfortunately I do. John Kitner ( sp?). But what I remember most was your running back Harvey in that game.
In the Orange Bowl Brady was the star. He threw for 360 + yards and 4 TD's . That was a lot for that time. Shaun Alexander for Alabama carried the Tide and Michigan defenders on his back the entire game. He single handedly kept them in the game
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That is crazy you were at that game. Are you a Michigan Alumni? Drew Henson cost teams a lot of money for NOTHING
Kurt Kittner was the QB and Rocky Harvey was the FB.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Your point that brady has never won a SB without having a great defense could be said about the vast majority of SB winners. I only have numbers through 2014, but of all SB winning teams through 14, only 4 had a defense ranked below #13. only 7 winning teams had a defense outside the top 10. so yes, most SB winners have the luxury of a great defense. its not just Brady.
just to add, in Montanas 4 SB's, the 49ers defenses ranked: 2,1,8 and 3rd. it seems everything said about Bradys defenses could be applied equally to Joe Cool.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thanks for finally coming around!