Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Your point that brady has never won a SB without having a great defense could be said about the vast majority of SB winners. I only have numbers through 2014, but of all SB winning teams through 14, only 4 had a defense ranked below #13. only 7 winning teams had a defense outside the top 10. so yes, most SB winners have the luxury of a great defense. its not just Brady.
just to add, in Montanas 4 SB's, the 49ers defenses ranked: 2,1,8 and 3rd. it seems everything said about Bradys defenses could be applied equally to Joe Cool.
YES!
Yet I keep hearing that Brady is the "reason" he has all the rings.
NO!
A large PART of the reason.
While your looking at stats, look at this page https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/index.htm and imagine if the Dolphins had as good a defense for Marino (they did have a couple good ones for Dan) as they did for Griese, could it be conceivable that Marino would at least be in the GOAT conversation?
Marino was VERY, VERY good.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@coinkat said:
Please consider a different title for your thread... GOAT should be modified to Modern era and if we are unable to agree on when the modern era begins, hopefully we can agree on limiting the discussion to from the first SuperBowl to the present. And if we limit the discussion to that, I am not going to argue as Brady has demonstrated he is worthy of being considered the best.
There are two footnotes worthy to mention especially because Montana is often considered as well. And both of these footnote games were college games. I will always remember Montana for the great Cotton Bowl comeback against Houston... behind 34-12 and pulling out a great comeback leading Notre Dame to an amazing win 35-34. This game is legendary.
Tom Brady's UM team in 1999 had a 27-7 lead against Illinois late in the third quarter. Michigan was a 25 point favorite playing at Ann Arbor and lost in what was perhaps one of the greatest comebacks in Big Ten history. Illinois went on to win 35-29. And this game should be legendary as Montana's comeback as Michigan finished the season 10-2 and beat Alabama in a 35-34 nail biter in the Orange Bowl. However... I suspect very few remember this game...even Tom Brady. While Brady's name is all over the Michigan record book, I suspect this game may have a place in that book for loosing a 20 point lead at home relatively late in the game
I bring these games up because sports fans in general seem to have a selective memory when it comes to greatness. And part of the untold story is that Illinois quarterback, later in his career as a senior, did not receive one Heisman Trophy vote.
Points well taken but I shall counterpoint that Brady was a teenager during that Michigan meltdown and if he doesn’t deserve all the credit for winning he certainly shouldn’t get penalized for his fellow teenage teammates on D playing terrible enough for him to lose that game. As far as defining the modern era from the first Super Bowl? It’s tough because the 2020 Jaguars would beat the 67 Packers.
I was at that Illinois game. It was painful. The defense had a total meltdown. It just snowballed. Trust me no one blamed Brady and rightfully so. I was also at the Orange Bowl and watched Michigan beat Alabama 35-34 in a wild crazy game. I remember saying this Brady kid has the "it" factor. Little did I know.
Brady had a hard enough time starting at Michigan he battled with highly rated Drew Henson. They split a lot of time. Henson was the can't miss not Brady. Drew ended up going to the Yankees and into obscurity. He also played for 3 teams in the NFL. Brady went on to goatness
m
More on Henson
Henson accepted a football scholarship from the University of Michigan. As a freshman under head coach Lloyd Carr, Henson battled for the starting quarterback job against Tom Brady and ultimately was named the back up.
In 1999, Brady had to once again hold off Henson for the starting job. The two players platooned during the season's first seven games, with Brady playing the first quarter, Henson the second and Carr then deciding upon a quarterback for the second half. The team started off with a 5–0 record. Against Michigan State, Henson in the second quarter connected with Marcus Knight for the third longest passing play in school history (an 81-yard touchdown completion); so he was chosen to play in the second half; however, Brady was reinserted into the game in the fourth quarter with Michigan down by 17 points, and nearly led the team all the way back before losing 34–31.[3] After a 300-yard passing game the following week, Carr went exclusively with Brady for the remainder of the season. Henson still saw his number of pass attempts nearly double, throwing 90 times and completing 47 passes. He recorded 546 passing yards, along with three touchdowns and two interceptions in nine appearances.[2] Henson again saw limited action when Michigan took on another bowl opponent with a higher ranking, #5 Alabama, in the Orange Bowl, and came out victorious with a 35–34 OT victory.
That is crazy you were at that game. Are you a Michigan Alumni? Drew Henson cost teams a lot of money for NOTHING
Yes. I've been to over 200 Michigan home games and maybe 50 road games. Many bowl games. Irony is my Dad's cousin ( not sure what it makes me) was a star on Ohio State during the Woody Hayes era. I've been in the OSU locker room and remember meeting Jack Tatum and Rex Kern
I've been fortunate enough to have seen games at every Big Team school minus Maryland and Rutgers.
Kickoff Classic at "Cowboy Stadium"
Here are some random shots. I'm trying to put my fingers on some others
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I loved to watch him play. I asked my Dad for a Tarkenton jersey when I was a kid every Christmas. He would always say, " not in my house". Up until he died he wouldn't let any of us with foreign cars park them in his driveway either. He was a union man in Detroit
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This was at Notre Dame. We were on the field for this one. It was one of the Denard games. The good ole days.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This has really turned into a terrific thread... Had to like the picture of Fran... if the ability to scramble was the sole factor, clearly he would be considered. I recall his days with the Giants as well. If there was a QB that could keep you on the edge of your seat, my vote would go to Fran.
On a side note, there was another QB...Bobby Douglass of the Bears... There was something admirable about his take no prisoners style of running.
Have to like all the UM photos as well
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Fran was a great player. I remember when Marino Broke his yardage and TD records. Fran held those both for more than 20 years. i doubt the current records will last that long.
@craig44 said:
Fran was a great player. I remember when Marino Broke his yardage and TD records. Fran held those both for more than 20 years. i doubt the current records will last that long.
Your right, the all time passing yardage record will be broken mid season next year. By guess who? Yep The GOAT 🐐👏
@craig44 said:
Fran was a great player. I remember when Marino Broke his yardage and TD records. Fran held those both for more than 20 years. i doubt the current records will last that long.
Your right, the all time passing yardage record will be broken mid season next year. By guess who? Yep The GOAT 🐐👏
How many HOF receivers did Fran have? ;-)
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@coinkat said:
This has really turned into a terrific thread... Had to like the picture of Fran... if the ability to scramble was the sole factor, clearly he would be considered. I recall his days with the Giants as well. If there was a QB that could keep you on the edge of your seat, my vote would go to Fran.
On a side note, there was another QB...Bobby Douglass of the Bears... There was something admirable about his take no prisoners style of running.
Have to like all the UM photos as well
I thought it was a great photo too!
Fran played on two of the worst teams in NFL history from 1961-1971. Defensive ranking (points allowed) averaged #13 for the 11 seasons.
Fran never had a HOF receiver, tight end or running back, yet he had all the passing records when he retired.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
So 7 rings. Two more then anyone else who has ever played the game in the SB era. The highest winning percentage of all time. All sports. Plus a multitude of personal records to back it up. It all adds up to GOAT.
Also currently #1 in career passing touchdowns, should own the career passing yards record by about week 4 next season and the career passes completed by the end of the year.
With how many HOF’er WR/TE/RB’s surrounding him? Let’s see...I count two?. Gronk and then Moss for a couple seasons.
Welker went to 5 straight pro bowls. Funny thing, he had Randy and Wes for three full seasons and didn't win a SB. Didn't even make the playoffs in 2008.
Top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
Welker was great! 600 yard receiver in Miami, comes to Brady and puts up two 1,3000 and a 1,500 yd season....leaves and is back down to 700 yds> @JoeBanzai said:
Point taken.
Edelman was a very good receiver though, and he did still have my guy Randy.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Banzi, I see you agree he is the best...but lets remind that when he gets compared to other QB's that those QB's were sitting on a couch somewhere while Brady was continuing to win and be elite up to age 43(and beyond)
Enough about the toughness of the previous era. Favre played in the same era as Montana. 1996 was no different than 1984. Favre had an ironman streak as a QB that set a record, so it wasn't as dangerous as everyone makes it out to be. Marino played almost every single game of his career. Same for Elway. You guys are acting as if they were not playing with equipment in 1985.
Vinny Testaverde played until age 44 in that 'tough time' back then. Dave Krieg played until age 40.
Like I said before, yes the rule changes favor protecting the QB, but that is a necessity because the players tackling them are all bigger, stronger, and faster, and will kill them if not held in check some way.
YA Title did not get tackled by the beasts out there today. He managed to play until he was ancient.
Uniats played until age 40.
So enough of that 'times were tougher back then for a QB." No, in totality, they weren't.
The fact is, none of them had the skill to last as long as Brady and still be elite. Their skill levels all dropped tremendously as they got older and that is why they had to retire, NOT because the game was tougher.
The fact remains that Brady has played at an elite status unmatched by anyone AND for a length of career of elite years unmatched by anyone, while all other QB's were sitting on the couch watching at his age. For a nice cherry on top, he also won more in the regular season, percentage wise and total wise, and won all the rings. Nobody can match any of that.
Top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
Welker was great! 600 yard receiver in Miami, comes to Brady and puts up two 1,3000 and a 1,500 yd season....leaves and is back down to 700 yds> @JoeBanzai said:
That's what a GOAT should do, make good players better.
Tom certainly didn't play well that day with 3 interceptions and a 49.1 RATE.
Brady has never "won" a SB without having a great defense. In "his" 7 victories the defense has never been worse than the 8th best with a couple of years at #1 and a #2. Some of you guys seem to think he could do it as well with 21 High School players.
As I have said, I'll agree that Brady is the GOAT, but not by an overwhelmingly large margin.
Manning and Brees are very close, and don't forget Ken Anderson! ;-)
Banzi, I see you agree he is the best...but lets remind that when he gets compared to other QB's that those QB's were sitting on a couch somewhere while Brady was continuing to win and be elite up to age 43(and beyond)
He was still playing because he was on great teams with a great Quarterback.
Enough about the toughness of the previous era. Favre played in the same era as Montana. 1996 was no different than 1984. Favre had an ironman streak as a QB that set a record, so it wasn't as dangerous as everyone makes it out to be. Marino played almost every single game of his career. Same for Elway. You guys are acting as if they were not playing with equipment in 1985.
I didn't say anything about toughness, only that the offensive players got bigger too. Plus the fact that the rules have made it easier for QBs.
The fact remains that Brady has played at an elite status unmatched by anyone AND for a length of career of elite years unmatched by anyone, while all other QB's were sitting on the couch watching at his age. For a nice cherry on top, he also won more in the regular season, percentage wise and total wise, and won all the rings. Nobody can match any of that.
No argument there.
Find me another good/great quarterback who had a top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
Graham had the best defenses EVER! That's why he was able to win championships almost every year.
Tarkenton played 18 years and when given a great defense, was one play away from going to 4 straight SBs.
Brady is as good or better than any of the other QBs and he played for a great organization with a great coach and great defenses, just about every year.
He does get my vote for the GOAT. Manning, Brees, Marino, Favre and even Tarkenton might have done as well, perhaps even better had they played for N.E.
But they didn't.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
Fran was a great player. I remember when Marino Broke his yardage and TD records. Fran held those both for more than 20 years. i doubt the current records will last that long.
Your right, the all time passing yardage record will be broken mid season next year. By guess who? Yep The GOAT 🐐👏
How many HOF receivers did Fran have? ;-)
Didn’t he have.... ummm I can’t name a single WR from his teams. Ahmad Rashaard?? Maybe? Without looking lol
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Lark .0003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there actually played full time minutes.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
Then based on the theories being presented here by others, Barry Larkin and his .000000003% impact on winning should be removed from the HOF, and Mazeroski, whew, a joke.
@craig44 said:
I dont know about that. I think Ruth was worth at least 1.6% of the value of his teams. remember, he did pitch for a few years too.
Based on an elite NFL QB being only "5%" then baseball players are maxed out at 1%. Also, RUTH pitched THEN hit. He did not do both in full time capacity at the same time. Had he hit 50 home runs and won 20 games at the same time, then I would see that merit. But that wasn't the case.
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there actually played full time minutes.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
So you're finally catching on why postseason stats and rings are irrelevant? You're making progress.
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there actually played full time minutes.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
So you're finally catching on why postseason stats and rings are irrelevant? You're making progress.
The only thing I'm catching onto is that your theories remove Barry Larkin(and his .0000003% effect on winning) from the HOF, and that you don't quite understand the game of basketball when you are using Robert Horry in the way you are.
We already know that football is tough for you to grasp based on what you say, but again:
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there actually played full time minutes.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
So you're finally catching on why postseason stats and rings are irrelevant? You're making progress.
The only thing I'm catching onto is that your theories remove Barry Larkin from the HOF, and that you don't quite understand the game of basketball when you are using Robert Horry in the way you are.
We already know that football is tough for you to grasp based on what you say, but again:
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
I've never made a claim that Larkin was the GOAT, even at his position, much less of baseball in general. All I get from this is you know how to copy and paste. Good job!
Brady has played 45 post season games. That's 3 additional full seasons of football to add to his value. Its 3 seasons of under the microscope football. It's also 3 full additional seasons of wear and tear and less rest in between seasons. While others have been golfing for weeks he is just teeing off now.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there actually played full time minutes.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
So you're finally catching on why postseason stats and rings are irrelevant? You're making progress.
The only thing I'm catching onto is that your theories remove Barry Larkin from the HOF, and that you don't quite understand the game of basketball when you are using Robert Horry in the way you are.
We already know that football is tough for you to grasp based on what you say, but again:
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
I've never made a claim that Larkin was the GOAT, even at his position, much less of baseball in general. All I get from this is you know how to copy and paste. Good job!
Yup, will copy and paste again, because it completely debunks anything you have said. Your Robert Horry comparison makes ZERO sense. It is a third grade reply to a more complex question.
Also, YOUR valuation theory of 5% of Tom Brady winning simply puts all baseball players at 1% max, and inferior baseball players like Larkin at .00000000003% of winning. I'm just regurgitating your theory.
Will paste again: Just call it my tag line.
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
And for the record, I said Brady was the best BEFORE even considering the championships won.
That was just further icing on the cake, because it does matter. The regular season winning percentage is not a coincidence. There is a reason why Warren Moon only lead his teams to a .500 record despite for throwing all those yards......go back and read my posts, you should be able to find it. That way I won't have to copy and paste again.
Also, in the NFL going against strong defenses in the playoffs with something to play for, does expose some QB's who have great regular season stats because in the NFL there are a lot of garbage time stats, or stats against defenses taking the day off. Or because of the unbalanced schedule, not every faces the same teams every year.
You see Moon did "lead" Horry "did not lead". That needs clarification.
@Justacommeman said:
Brady has played 45 post season games. That's 3 additional full seasons of football to look at his value. Its 3 seasons of under the microscope football. It's also 3 full additional seasons of wear and tear and less rest in between seasons. While others have been golfing for weeks he is just teeing off now.
mark
Good point. For that, I am going to add Gordie Howe to the slash line.
Tom Brady is the Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, and Gordie Howe of quarterbacks.
I may have to amend that since some of the poster on here only give baseball players 1% value toward winning....but Mantle does the job for elite peak greatness and winning, and Aaron for longevity greatness.
Howe is on there because he was great and facing off at age 51 against Wayne Gretzky. Brady just faced off against Mahomes. Howe officially goes into the slash line.
@LarkinCollector said:
Fact: Robert Horry has as many championships under his belt as Tom Brady.
That is true
But now let's go back to football since that is the Sport Brady plays.
Fact: Tom Brady has 7 Super Bowl championships under his belt. Two more then anyone else. Three more then the next quarterback. Five more then any of contemporary QB's of his era plus ranking first or second in many key statistical all time records. What does it all add up to?
GOAT
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm just curious what the membership requirements are to join the Cult of Brady Fanboyism (CBF)? Is there an annual membership fee? Do you have to set up an altar? Bow to it a certain amount of times per day? These are important questions. So far I've been able to figure out ...
Suspension of rational discussion - first try "but, you know, quarterbacks", "7 rings to rule them all", "winning percentage", etc. If that doesn't work, try to insult the other person into submission
Award him credit for aspects of the game where he is on the sidelines
Any perceived slight, no matter how trivial, must be attacked with the full strength the keyboard warrior possesses
@LarkinCollector said:
I'm just curious what the membership requirements are to join the Cult of Brady Fanboyism (CBF)? Is there an annual membership fee? Do you have to set up an altar? Bow to it a certain amount of times per day? These are important questions. So far I've been able to figure out ...
Suspension of rational discussion - first try "but, you know, quarterbacks", "7 rings to rule them all", "winning percentage", etc. If that doesn't work, try to insult the other person into submission
Award him credit for aspects of the game where he is on the sidelines
Any perceived slight, no matter how trivial, must be attacked with the full strength the keyboard warrior possesses
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
I am a devout Christian. I do not worship Tom Brady. I appreciate the cumulative display of his accomplishments and consider those to be greater than any other NFL player.
TBMHC ( Tom Brady Man Haters Club) is looking to expand their membership. The following requirements are required.
• be able to convince people to discount the playoffs and titles after all the regular season is the most important and winning is over rated
• be able to use arbitrary percentages to discount value at a moments notice
•be able to be condescending when people push back. Call them fan boys if they don't fall in line. Just tell them they only know Qb's. That will get em every time
• be able to insert random players into a discussion to prove anybody could do it including Uncle Rico. Again, be as condescending as possible.
•be able to discount facts if they don't fit your narrative
• most importantly be able to discount Tom Brady accomplishments after each Super Bowl win and NFL records he sets. This naturally won't be easy but be creative and as the iconic line in Waterboy suggests, " You can do it!"
References required as well as Excellent knowledge of MS Office and MS Excel
Ability to create and deliver presentations that defy common sense is a must
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
By the grace of Brady, must trigger easily with sense of humor checked at the door, responding to non-CBF members in unoriginal methods, denigrating their lack of faith
Discount the contributions of every other player on his teams, so as to leave enough credit for the almighty TB12, praise Tom
Determine things "arbitrary" when you don't like them (as a basis for evaluating all QBs value), without suggesting adjustments and instead, mocking the concept, hallelujah
Consider "discounting playoffs" as a personal insult to TB, all hail Tom, when it's also used in every other team sport's GOAT discussion, since "you know, teams" make playoff appearances, not individuals, and given enough opportunity, all eventually regress to their regular season rate stats anyway
Say five hail Giselles (or hail Bridgets for the fundamentalist sect) for even thinking this is pretty darn funny
I love LarkinCollector. He's a good man with a deft sense of humor and is a knowledgeable and skilled debater. Plus his man Larkin is a U of M product.
As mentioned I consider football the ultimate team sport. I consider Tom Brady the ultimate team mate and leader . I consider Tom Brady the best who has ever done it. I won't apologize for it.
Man I hope Brady and Tampa Bay doesn't win again next year as this exercise is exhausting. I was almost hoping he didn't win this year as I knew this was coming.
m
please note there will be several TB12 threads posted when he passes Breeze for the all time yardage record. Start preparing.
Subliminal Dimeman shout out
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
I love LarkinCollector. He's a good man and a deft sense of humor.
As mentioned I consider football the ultimate team sport. I consider Tom Brady the ultimate team mate and leader . I consider Tom Brady the best who has ever done it. I won't apologize for it.
Man I hope Brady and Tampa Bay doesn't win again next year as this exercise is exhausting. I was almost hoping he didn't win this year as I knew this was coming.
m
please note there will be several TB12 threads posted when he passes Breeze for the all time yardage record. Start preparing.
I am not quite sure where the hate and vitriol is coming from when making the reference that an individual player has won a championship. traditionally, that has been the nomenclature. Bradshaw won 4, Montana won 4 and so on. the world seemed content with that. now all of a sudden, we have to break it down into percentages as to how much each player contributed to each championship.
it boils down to if you were a starter on a championship team, you won a title. in any team sport, no one can do it alone. that is understood. I am perfectly happy saying troy aikman won 3 super bowls. did he do It all by himself? nope. but he was on the team and played a big role as starting QB. so, yeah, aikman won 3. every starter on those cowboys teams can say the same. they won 3 super bowls. and its true.
i think some are getting caught up with hypotheticals. as in, its not fair some players didn't get a chance to play on numerous playoff teams or in numerous SB's. well, its not fair. we will never know how dan marino might have done had he played on the 49ers or another perenial playoff team. would he have won 5 super bowls? maybe. would he have shrunk under the pressure and lost 5? maybe. but we will never know. speculating is useless.
what we do know is that Montana played really well and won 4 SB's.
we also know that Brady won 7.
@Justacommeman said:
But now let's go back to football since that is the Sport Brady plays.
Fact: Tom Brady has 7 Super Bowl championships under his belt. Two more then anyone else. Three more then the next quarterback. Five more then any of contemporary QB's of his era plus ranking first or second in many key statistical all time records. What does it all add up to?
GOAT
I got lost somewhere. Can you point me to the post(s) wherein someone took issue with calling Brady the GOAT? Thanks so much.
@craig44 said:
I am not quite sure where the hate and vitriol is coming from when making the reference that an individual player has won a championship. traditionally, that has been the nomenclature. Bradshaw won 4, Montana won 4 and so on. the world seemed content with that. now all of a sudden, we have to break it down into percentages as to how much each player contributed to each championship.
I don't want to sound condescending after getting put in my place by dad, but where are you seeing "hate" and "vitriol"? And the world, that part of it that understands team sports anyway, was never content with saying that QBs and only QBs "won" a title. If you can say "Tom Brady won 7 Super Bowls" and "Frankie Crosetti won 8 World Series" in the same tone of voice and mean the same thing when you say it, then none of this is directed at you. If you can't, then it is. But there's no "hate" or "vitriol" involved. In fact, I am having a ball typing "because, you know, quarterbacks" over and over again and then marveling at the lack of self-awareness in the posts that follow.
And the most important position in sport - major ones anyway - is the NHL goalie. After that is any/every NBA position since they are all, on average, 20% responsible for their team's results. No baseball or football player can possibly* come close to that because they aren't involved in enough of the game, and there are too many other players contributing.
*It's nowhere near possible anymore, but Don Hutson and a couple of others may have at least come close. Hutson played WR, DB, and K, was excellent at all three, and almost never left the field. Any NFL player who wants double-digit credit for winning needs to step up and start playing the whole game.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Now that the GOAT is settled all is good. But the fact is a couple posters stated he wasn't. I accept that. I think a lot of us tried maybe in vain to state the reasons we believe he was. You did at least state he was in the running. We also failed to convince you that he IS. That's fine. I accept that. You're a respected poster and I do listen and acknowledge your POV even when I disagree with you.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Not put in your place just stating the obvious.
Now that the GOAT is settled all is good. But the fact is a couple posters stated he wasn't. I think a lot of us tried maybe in vain to state the reasons we believe he was. You did at least state he was in the running. We also failed to convince you he IS. That's fine. I accept that. You're a respected poster and I do listen and acknowledge your POV even when I disagree with you.
By the grace of Brady, must trigger easily with sense of humor checked at the door, responding to non-CBF members in unoriginal methods, denigrating their lack of faith
Discount the contributions of every other player on his teams, so as to leave enough credit for the almighty TB12, praise Tom
Determine things "arbitrary" when you don't like them (as a basis for evaluating all QBs value), without suggesting adjustments and instead, mocking the concept, hallelujah
Consider "discounting playoffs" as a personal insult to TB, all hail Tom, when it's also used in every other team sport's GOAT discussion, since "you know, teams" make playoff appearances, not individuals, and given enough opportunity, all eventually regress to their regular season rate stats anyway
Say five hail Giselles (or hail Bridgets for the fundamentalist sect) for even thinking this is pretty darn funny
Comments
YES!
Yet I keep hearing that Brady is the "reason" he has all the rings.
NO!
A large PART of the reason.
While your looking at stats, look at this page https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/index.htm and imagine if the Dolphins had as good a defense for Marino (they did have a couple good ones for Dan) as they did for Griese, could it be conceivable that Marino would at least be in the GOAT conversation?
Marino was VERY, VERY good.
Yes. I've been to over 200 Michigan home games and maybe 50 road games. Many bowl games. Irony is my Dad's cousin ( not sure what it makes me) was a star on Ohio State during the Woody Hayes era. I've been in the OSU locker room and remember meeting Jack Tatum and Rex Kern
I've been fortunate enough to have seen games at every Big Team school minus Maryland and Rutgers.
Kickoff Classic at "Cowboy Stadium"
Here are some random shots. I'm trying to put my fingers on some others
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman Mark that is AWESOME! Thanks posting all that!!! 👍👍🍻
Very good stuff. Thank you.
This clip would have been so much more entertaining had that trophy landed right in someone’s grill.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RdB5rdnrFSU
And here’s the new trailer for the Weekend At Bernie’s remake.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SAxT0Nqthow
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
GOAT!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He scrambled like a GOAT with his tail on fire
I loved to watch him play. I asked my Dad for a Tarkenton jersey when I was a kid every Christmas. He would always say, " not in my house". Up until he died he wouldn't let any of us with foreign cars park them in his driveway either. He was a union man in Detroit
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes he did!!!!!
It's really too bad most of you guys didn't get to see him play week in and week out. He was amazing!
Hey! I was at that game, too! Toured the Stadium beforehand:
@Tabe thats awesome!
This was at Notre Dame. We were on the field for this one. It was one of the Denard games. The good ole days.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Awwwwwwwwwwesome!
This has really turned into a terrific thread... Had to like the picture of Fran... if the ability to scramble was the sole factor, clearly he would be considered. I recall his days with the Giants as well. If there was a QB that could keep you on the edge of your seat, my vote would go to Fran.
On a side note, there was another QB...Bobby Douglass of the Bears... There was something admirable about his take no prisoners style of running.
Have to like all the UM photos as well
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Fran was a great player. I remember when Marino Broke his yardage and TD records. Fran held those both for more than 20 years. i doubt the current records will last that long.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Your right, the all time passing yardage record will be broken mid season next year. By guess who? Yep The GOAT 🐐👏
How many HOF receivers did Fran have? ;-)
I thought it was a great photo too!
Fran played on two of the worst teams in NFL history from 1961-1971. Defensive ranking (points allowed) averaged #13 for the 11 seasons.
Fran never had a HOF receiver, tight end or running back, yet he had all the passing records when he retired.
Welker was great! 600 yard receiver in Miami, comes to Brady and puts up two 1,3000 and a 1,500 yd season....leaves and is back down to 700 yds> @JoeBanzai said:
Banzi, I see you agree he is the best...but lets remind that when he gets compared to other QB's that those QB's were sitting on a couch somewhere while Brady was continuing to win and be elite up to age 43(and beyond)
Enough about the toughness of the previous era. Favre played in the same era as Montana. 1996 was no different than 1984. Favre had an ironman streak as a QB that set a record, so it wasn't as dangerous as everyone makes it out to be. Marino played almost every single game of his career. Same for Elway. You guys are acting as if they were not playing with equipment in 1985.
Vinny Testaverde played until age 44 in that 'tough time' back then. Dave Krieg played until age 40.
Like I said before, yes the rule changes favor protecting the QB, but that is a necessity because the players tackling them are all bigger, stronger, and faster, and will kill them if not held in check some way.
YA Title did not get tackled by the beasts out there today. He managed to play until he was ancient.
Uniats played until age 40.
So enough of that 'times were tougher back then for a QB." No, in totality, they weren't.
The fact is, none of them had the skill to last as long as Brady and still be elite. Their skill levels all dropped tremendously as they got older and that is why they had to retire, NOT because the game was tougher.
The fact remains that Brady has played at an elite status unmatched by anyone AND for a length of career of elite years unmatched by anyone, while all other QB's were sitting on the couch watching at his age. For a nice cherry on top, he also won more in the regular season, percentage wise and total wise, and won all the rings. Nobody can match any of that.
That's what a GOAT should do, make good players better.
He was still playing because he was on great teams with a great Quarterback.
No argument there.
Find me another good/great quarterback who had a top 5 defense eight times, top 10 defense sixteen out of nineteen seasons.
Graham had the best defenses EVER! That's why he was able to win championships almost every year.
Tarkenton played 18 years and when given a great defense, was one play away from going to 4 straight SBs.
Brady is as good or better than any of the other QBs and he played for a great organization with a great coach and great defenses, just about every year.
He does get my vote for the GOAT. Manning, Brees, Marino, Favre and even Tarkenton might have done as well, perhaps even better had they played for N.E.
But they didn't.
Didn’t he have.... ummm I can’t name a single WR from his teams. Ahmad Rashaard?? Maybe? Without looking lol
I was right! Ahmad Rashard I looked it up 👍👍
Fran had Rashad for 3 years, Ahmad was very good1
You forgot about the great John Gilliam and the near great Gene Washington?
BTW there were two Gene Washington's, the one who played for the 49ers was better.
I dont know about that. I think Ruth was worth at least 1.6% of the value of his teams. remember, he did pitch for a few years too.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Lark .0003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there actually played full time minutes.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
Then based on the theories being presented here by others, Barry Larkin and his .000000003% impact on winning should be removed from the HOF, and Mazeroski, whew, a joke.
Based on an elite NFL QB being only "5%" then baseball players are maxed out at 1%. Also, RUTH pitched THEN hit. He did not do both in full time capacity at the same time. Had he hit 50 home runs and won 20 games at the same time, then I would see that merit. But that wasn't the case.
So you're finally catching on why postseason stats and rings are irrelevant? You're making progress.
The only thing I'm catching onto is that your theories remove Barry Larkin(and his .0000003% effect on winning) from the HOF, and that you don't quite understand the game of basketball when you are using Robert Horry in the way you are.
We already know that football is tough for you to grasp based on what you say, but again:
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
I've never made a claim that Larkin was the GOAT, even at his position, much less of baseball in general. All I get from this is you know how to copy and paste. Good job!
Brady has played 45 post season games. That's 3 additional full seasons of football to add to his value. Its 3 seasons of under the microscope football. It's also 3 full additional seasons of wear and tear and less rest in between seasons. While others have been golfing for weeks he is just teeing off now.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yup, will copy and paste again, because it completely debunks anything you have said. Your Robert Horry comparison makes ZERO sense. It is a third grade reply to a more complex question.
Also, YOUR valuation theory of 5% of Tom Brady winning simply puts all baseball players at 1% max, and inferior baseball players like Larkin at .00000000003% of winning. I'm just regurgitating your theory.
Will paste again: Just call it my tag line.
Robert Horry "lead"? Is that a joke? I think you may need to look at those rosters again and see who actually did lead those teams. You are going to find some pretty good players on there.
If someone doesn't see the difference between an NBA role player just happening to be on great teams, compared to QB in the NFL that is elite by every merit leading his teams to victory, then maybe this is the wrong thread or read below:
If the 5% group wants to continue with that stance, thats fine, but then we need to adjust the value of the players in other sports. Babe Ruth only comes out to 1%, Barry Larkin .00000000000003%, and Mazeroski .000000000000000000000001%. I adjusted Larkin lower since he needs the pitcher to roll him ground balls and the pitcher can get outs on his own.
To claim that Fournette is worth 6% of the win and Brady 5% shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of the QB position and how hard it is to find someone to execute it at a high level. Meanwhile, Fournette is replacable by 50 other NFL players. He was a scrap heap pick up as it was. The running backs for Tampa have an EASIER time to run when the defense has to account for the passing game. It is true that a commitment to run is needed, but those guys you can find to run are an easy commodity in the NFL, hence why Fournette was on the scrap heap to begin with. Find me ANY average QB on the scrap heap! You can't, because they are a commodity that is hard to find.
And yes, the QB CAN help the defense too. For one, if they offense controls the ball, the defense gets to rest! For two, if the offense gets a lead, the defense can pin their ears back and attack the QB when it becomes obvious passing situations(and that is part of the reason Mahomes was running for his life...don't blame it all on the O-Line). Also, a wiser QB might tell his coach NO, like Brady did, and run the plays he sees will work based on what he sees out there against him.
As it stands now, Brady is the Mantle and Aaron of QB's. IF he plays another year or two, then you can add Gordie Howe to that slash line, and Brady will be the Mantle/Aaron/Howe of QB's
And for the record, I said Brady was the best BEFORE even considering the championships won.
That was just further icing on the cake, because it does matter. The regular season winning percentage is not a coincidence. There is a reason why Warren Moon only lead his teams to a .500 record despite for throwing all those yards......go back and read my posts, you should be able to find it. That way I won't have to copy and paste again.
Also, in the NFL going against strong defenses in the playoffs with something to play for, does expose some QB's who have great regular season stats because in the NFL there are a lot of garbage time stats, or stats against defenses taking the day off. Or because of the unbalanced schedule, not every faces the same teams every year.
You see Moon did "lead" Horry "did not lead". That needs clarification.
Fact: Robert Horry has as many championships under his belt as Tom Brady.
Good point. For that, I am going to add Gordie Howe to the slash line.
Tom Brady is the Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, and Gordie Howe of quarterbacks.
I may have to amend that since some of the poster on here only give baseball players 1% value toward winning....but Mantle does the job for elite peak greatness and winning, and Aaron for longevity greatness.
Howe is on there because he was great and facing off at age 51 against Wayne Gretzky. Brady just faced off against Mahomes. Howe officially goes into the slash line.
Mantle/Aaron/Howe.
There is a difference between being the GOAT QB and the one that creates the most excitement...
So which QB's have been the most exciting and unpredictable in the modern era which we will define as 1967 to the present?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Roger Staubach. It often gets lost in history that he missed a lot of time due to his military commitment. Best QB of his era.
That is true
But now let's go back to football since that is the Sport Brady plays.
Fact: Tom Brady has 7 Super Bowl championships under his belt. Two more then anyone else. Three more then the next quarterback. Five more then any of contemporary QB's of his era plus ranking first or second in many key statistical all time records. What does it all add up to?
GOAT
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm just curious what the membership requirements are to join the Cult of Brady Fanboyism (CBF)? Is there an annual membership fee? Do you have to set up an altar? Bow to it a certain amount of times per day? These are important questions. So far I've been able to figure out ...
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
I am a devout Christian. I do not worship Tom Brady. I appreciate the cumulative display of his accomplishments and consider those to be greater than any other NFL player.
TBMHC ( Tom Brady Man Haters Club) is looking to expand their membership. The following requirements are required.
• be able to convince people to discount the playoffs and titles after all the regular season is the most important and winning is over rated
• be able to use arbitrary percentages to discount value at a moments notice
•be able to be condescending when people push back. Call them fan boys if they don't fall in line. Just tell them they only know Qb's. That will get em every time
• be able to insert random players into a discussion to prove anybody could do it including Uncle Rico. Again, be as condescending as possible.
•be able to discount facts if they don't fit your narrative
• most importantly be able to discount Tom Brady accomplishments after each Super Bowl win and NFL records he sets. This naturally won't be easy but be creative and as the iconic line in Waterboy suggests, " You can do it!"
References required as well as Excellent knowledge of MS Office and MS Excel
Ability to create and deliver presentations that defy common sense is a must
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I guess I forgot I forgot a few ...
I love LarkinCollector. He's a good man with a deft sense of humor and is a knowledgeable and skilled debater. Plus his man Larkin is a U of M product.
As mentioned I consider football the ultimate team sport. I consider Tom Brady the ultimate team mate and leader . I consider Tom Brady the best who has ever done it. I won't apologize for it.
Man I hope Brady and Tampa Bay doesn't win again next year as this exercise is exhausting. I was almost hoping he didn't win this year as I knew this was coming.
m
Subliminal Dimeman shout out
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Spot Freaking on!
it is also about the role a player has in winning the championship. QB is the single most important position in sport.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I am not quite sure where the hate and vitriol is coming from when making the reference that an individual player has won a championship. traditionally, that has been the nomenclature. Bradshaw won 4, Montana won 4 and so on. the world seemed content with that. now all of a sudden, we have to break it down into percentages as to how much each player contributed to each championship.
it boils down to if you were a starter on a championship team, you won a title. in any team sport, no one can do it alone. that is understood. I am perfectly happy saying troy aikman won 3 super bowls. did he do It all by himself? nope. but he was on the team and played a big role as starting QB. so, yeah, aikman won 3. every starter on those cowboys teams can say the same. they won 3 super bowls. and its true.
i think some are getting caught up with hypotheticals. as in, its not fair some players didn't get a chance to play on numerous playoff teams or in numerous SB's. well, its not fair. we will never know how dan marino might have done had he played on the 49ers or another perenial playoff team. would he have won 5 super bowls? maybe. would he have shrunk under the pressure and lost 5? maybe. but we will never know. speculating is useless.
what we do know is that Montana played really well and won 4 SB's.
we also know that Brady won 7.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
i see what you did there
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I got lost somewhere. Can you point me to the post(s) wherein someone took issue with calling Brady the GOAT? Thanks so much.
I don't want to sound condescending after getting put in my place by dad, but where are you seeing "hate" and "vitriol"? And the world, that part of it that understands team sports anyway, was never content with saying that QBs and only QBs "won" a title. If you can say "Tom Brady won 7 Super Bowls" and "Frankie Crosetti won 8 World Series" in the same tone of voice and mean the same thing when you say it, then none of this is directed at you. If you can't, then it is. But there's no "hate" or "vitriol" involved. In fact, I am having a ball typing "because, you know, quarterbacks" over and over again and then marveling at the lack of self-awareness in the posts that follow.
And the most important position in sport - major ones anyway - is the NHL goalie. After that is any/every NBA position since they are all, on average, 20% responsible for their team's results. No baseball or football player can possibly* come close to that because they aren't involved in enough of the game, and there are too many other players contributing.
*It's nowhere near possible anymore, but Don Hutson and a couple of others may have at least come close. Hutson played WR, DB, and K, was excellent at all three, and almost never left the field. Any NFL player who wants double-digit credit for winning needs to step up and start playing the whole game.
Not put in your place just stating the obvious.
Now that the GOAT is settled all is good. But the fact is a couple posters stated he wasn't. I accept that. I think a lot of us tried maybe in vain to state the reasons we believe he was. You did at least state he was in the running. We also failed to convince you that he IS. That's fine. I accept that. You're a respected poster and I do listen and acknowledge your POV even when I disagree with you.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is where I’m at with all of this as well.
Touche