Shanahans Broncos had better teams than Reeves did in my opinion. The O line was far and away the best in the NFL that’s why no name RB’s were plugged in after Davis got hurt and ran for career years. Without that line and Terrell Davis, Elway might not have won a super Bowl.
it appears to me that the number of poor throws he is making is on the rise this season.
Brady's erratic play was on full display on Sunday. on successive plays under a heavy rush both times: first, he makes one of the most excellent long throws I've ever seen, released as he's about to be hit and caught with the hands of a fully extended, laid out receiver!! a thing of beauty. on the next play, similar circumstances, he throws three yards short on a back-shoulder play that's intercepted
stuff like that has gotten almost common, moreso as the season progresses. --- I should add that Brady mounted a comeback of sorts that fell short.
to my way of thinking, there needs to be at least a semblance of a running game for a Team to be successful. against the Chiefs, if Tampa Bay had that they could have exploited the pass rush and helped Brady. absent that I don't see Tampa Bay making it out of Round One in a weak NFC.
First, I’m feeling like this is your team so I’ll happily defer to you; you watched all the games and surely know it better than I. But To keep the dialog going?
The list of SB winning coaches is fairly short. I did not call Reeves a winning coach but he recorded good records with three different teams considering the talent he had in each spot. His work with the (my) Giants was a minor miracle as we were really bad when he got here. And that Atlanta team really outperformed their talent, in my estimation. To me, that’s pretty darn good; 4 SB appearances and with two different franchises years apart.
I do understand what you’re saying about ‘unleashing him’ and you’re right. Part of that was a way to control games, I think, in that the Broncos were not as talented as some (many) opponents and Reeves knew if they could just stay in games, control the clock the Kid could pull it out. Now, if not winning the SuperBowl is failure, fine. He’s a failure. But getting there three times says something and I think waste is too strong a word for John Elway’s early years. In that era, the teams that stand out as pass first were the Rams, Oilers and the Dolphins. Despite memories to the contrary, the 49ers were definitely run first. The contrast was stark back then - pass first teams usually had first round exits in the playoffs and weren’t really taken seriously. Memories lie, so maybe I’m mistaken. But I feel like Reeves was trying to force Elway into what he genuinely accepted from Shanahan: We’re going to run it down their throats and you’ll be given the chance to shine, John, within that system. Mostly, a new level of maturity coupled with the desire to win he always possessed. And it’s telling to me that as GM, he seems disinterested in QBs unless they show they can set their ego aside. Maybe because his is large or maybe it’s proof he’s figured out that working with and not against the coach and GM and being all in is as important as arm strength and speed.
I’m not saying that John Elway couldn’t have accomplished more statistically but winning SuperBowls would be tough regardless of system with scales tipped so heavily toward the NFC at that time. Bears, Skins, 9ers, GMEN. A lot of great teams there alone and gobbled up a lot of SuperBowl wins between them.
And I’ll add, finally, that John Elway would absolutely thrive in this current era. A Mile High Mahomes. I think the world of Elway as a player and he’s been great as a GM.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
to my way of thinking, there needs to be at least a semblance of a running game for a Team to be successful. against the Chiefs, if Tampa Bay had that they could have exploited the pass rush and helped Brady. absent that I don't see Tampa Bay making it out of Round One in a weak NFC.
I agree that the Bucs running game is not up to snuff. By the numbers it is not terrible ( as far as i know). But it seems to my eyes t be a little feast or famine. And they don't seem to be employing sufficient play action. And play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well.
And play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well.
how?? in order to be successful the LB's and DB's have to expect that Tampa Bay can run and they haven't proven that. additionally, a high percentage of the time they are using either an empty backfield or a shift to an empty backfield and one side loaded. Teams aren't seeing this during the game, they're seeing it at film study during the week and being re-affirmed DURING the game.
until Tampa Bay proves to an opponent that they can run this will only get worse.
--- note to self: watch on Sunday Cleveland vs. Tennessee to get an idea of how play-action really works, both Teams will employ it.
@keets said: And play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well.
how?? in order to be successful the LB's and DB's have to expect that Tampa Bay can run and they haven't proven that. additionally, a high percentage of the time they are using either an empty backfield or a shift to an empty backfield and one side loaded. Teams aren't seeing this during the game, they're seeing it at film study during the week and being re-affirmed DURING the game.
until Tampa Bay proves to an opponent that they can run this will only get worse.
--- note to self: watch on Sunday Cleveland vs. Tennessee to get an idea of how play-action really works, both Teams will employ it.
Play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well. It does, however, require at least one player in the backfield. The defense will bite on play action even against an offense which does not run well.
Edit to add: I am essentially saying that any team, even a team which does not statistically run the ball well, can use play action. From the right formation, the defense will bite on play action.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
It seems like you guys are saying that in order for the QB to succeed he needs a coach and GM that can tailor the team to his strengths.
Isnt that what successful coaches do? Good coaches put their players in position to succeed, they dont work away from strengths. Look at Dan Reeves with The Denver Broncos during Elways prime. tried to force a system down Elways throat that didnt suit his strengths. He really Ruined Johns prime. Look at Elways statistics at the end of his career under Shannahan. A much better QB. A shame really.
Elway threw the ball more under Reeves (605 attempts in 1985).
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
It seems like you guys are saying that in order for the QB to succeed he needs a coach and GM that can tailor the team to his strengths.
Isnt that what successful coaches do? Good coaches put their players in position to succeed, they dont work away from strengths. Look at Dan Reeves with The Denver Broncos during Elways prime. tried to force a system down Elways throat that didnt suit his strengths. He really Ruined Johns prime. Look at Elways statistics at the end of his career under Shannahan. A much better QB. A shame really.
Elway threw the ball more under Reeves (605 attempts in 1985).
i believe 85 was the year elway had his most 4th quarter comebacks in his career. no doubt because Reeves gameplan put them consistently behind and elway had to throw him out of it.
i believe 85 was the year elway had his most 4th quarter comebacks in his career. no doubt because Reeves gameplan put them consistently behind and elway had to throw him out of it.
It's a little hard to tell from box scores but they only had 2 wins all year where the game wasn't super-close in the 4th (i.e. no big comeback) or way ahead (no comeback). In their 5 losses, they either scored no points in the 4th or got blown out with one game where they scored 3.
In other words, no, they weren't furiously coming back from 14 points down in the 4th all year.
All I can say is I'm glad John Elway is Denver's general manager. His comeuppance has arrived!
Chiefs had to deal with him all those years when he was QB, now he has to deal with Patrick Mahomes.
Payback sure is sweet!
Comments
Shanahans Broncos had better teams than Reeves did in my opinion. The O line was far and away the best in the NFL that’s why no name RB’s were plugged in after Davis got hurt and ran for career years. Without that line and Terrell Davis, Elway might not have won a super Bowl.
it appears to me that the number of poor throws he is making is on the rise this season.
Brady's erratic play was on full display on Sunday. on successive plays under a heavy rush both times: first, he makes one of the most excellent long throws I've ever seen, released as he's about to be hit and caught with the hands of a fully extended, laid out receiver!! a thing of beauty. on the next play, similar circumstances, he throws three yards short on a back-shoulder play that's intercepted
stuff like that has gotten almost common, moreso as the season progresses. --- I should add that Brady mounted a comeback of sorts that fell short.
to my way of thinking, there needs to be at least a semblance of a running game for a Team to be successful. against the Chiefs, if Tampa Bay had that they could have exploited the pass rush and helped Brady. absent that I don't see Tampa Bay making it out of Round One in a weak NFC.
First, I’m feeling like this is your team so I’ll happily defer to you; you watched all the games and surely know it better than I. But To keep the dialog going?
The list of SB winning coaches is fairly short. I did not call Reeves a winning coach but he recorded good records with three different teams considering the talent he had in each spot. His work with the (my) Giants was a minor miracle as we were really bad when he got here. And that Atlanta team really outperformed their talent, in my estimation. To me, that’s pretty darn good; 4 SB appearances and with two different franchises years apart.
I do understand what you’re saying about ‘unleashing him’ and you’re right. Part of that was a way to control games, I think, in that the Broncos were not as talented as some (many) opponents and Reeves knew if they could just stay in games, control the clock the Kid could pull it out. Now, if not winning the SuperBowl is failure, fine. He’s a failure. But getting there three times says something and I think waste is too strong a word for John Elway’s early years. In that era, the teams that stand out as pass first were the Rams, Oilers and the Dolphins. Despite memories to the contrary, the 49ers were definitely run first. The contrast was stark back then - pass first teams usually had first round exits in the playoffs and weren’t really taken seriously. Memories lie, so maybe I’m mistaken. But I feel like Reeves was trying to force Elway into what he genuinely accepted from Shanahan: We’re going to run it down their throats and you’ll be given the chance to shine, John, within that system. Mostly, a new level of maturity coupled with the desire to win he always possessed. And it’s telling to me that as GM, he seems disinterested in QBs unless they show they can set their ego aside. Maybe because his is large or maybe it’s proof he’s figured out that working with and not against the coach and GM and being all in is as important as arm strength and speed.
I’m not saying that John Elway couldn’t have accomplished more statistically but winning SuperBowls would be tough regardless of system with scales tipped so heavily toward the NFC at that time. Bears, Skins, 9ers, GMEN. A lot of great teams there alone and gobbled up a lot of SuperBowl wins between them.
And I’ll add, finally, that John Elway would absolutely thrive in this current era. A Mile High Mahomes. I think the world of Elway as a player and he’s been great as a GM.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
>
I agree that the Bucs running game is not up to snuff. By the numbers it is not terrible ( as far as i know). But it seems to my eyes t be a little feast or famine. And they don't seem to be employing sufficient play action. And play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well.
And play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well.
how?? in order to be successful the LB's and DB's have to expect that Tampa Bay can run and they haven't proven that. additionally, a high percentage of the time they are using either an empty backfield or a shift to an empty backfield and one side loaded. Teams aren't seeing this during the game, they're seeing it at film study during the week and being re-affirmed DURING the game.
until Tampa Bay proves to an opponent that they can run this will only get worse.
--- note to self: watch on Sunday Cleveland vs. Tennessee to get an idea of how play-action really works, both Teams will employ it.
Play action can be successfully deployed even if a team is not running the ball well. It does, however, require at least one player in the backfield. The defense will bite on play action even against an offense which does not run well.
Edit to add: I am essentially saying that any team, even a team which does not statistically run the ball well, can use play action. From the right formation, the defense will bite on play action.
Elway threw the ball more under Reeves (605 attempts in 1985).
i believe 85 was the year elway had his most 4th quarter comebacks in his career. no doubt because Reeves gameplan put them consistently behind and elway had to throw him out of it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It's a little hard to tell from box scores but they only had 2 wins all year where the game wasn't super-close in the 4th (i.e. no big comeback) or way ahead (no comeback). In their 5 losses, they either scored no points in the 4th or got blown out with one game where they scored 3.
In other words, no, they weren't furiously coming back from 14 points down in the 4th all year.
All I can say is I'm glad John Elway is Denver's general manager. His comeuppance has arrived!
Chiefs had to deal with him all those years when he was QB, now he has to deal with Patrick Mahomes.
Payback sure is sweet!