1909 S VDB Need Second Opinion
joej132
Posts: 87 ✭✭
Hi, this is my first post. I recently bought myself the 1909 S VDB Lincoln Cent from a reputable dealer. The dealer knows what he's doing as he has been dealing in coins for many years. I just want any of you coin experts opinions on the coin. I was curious as to why the "09" in 1909 is weak and which die pair was used for this coin as I know there were four used. If any of you have doubts to its authenticity, please let me know. Thanks.
1
Comments
We're going to need much better images.
Lance.
Yes better images cause at this point the lettering looks wrong. At least to me it does. The B, T and Y in Liberty look wrong.
For comparison.
This is the best I can do from OP's images. Authenticity is not out of the question but much better pictures would help a lot.
Obverse #4 is the best bet. The position of the dot following D in VDB should be precisely in the middle, not close to the D as with the non-S '09 VDB. Hard to say.
Lance.
Hope these help, sorry about that.
Pleasant $700. to $800. Lincoln in my opinion.
peacockcoins
Welcome to the forum!
You guys agree that the coin is genuine?
Also curious about how the "09" in 1909 is weak. Any thoughts?
@joej132 , while I don’t have expertise in authenticity:
1. I suspect that during the day tomorrow many more forum members will get to see this thread, and in all likelihood you’ll have your answer.
2. Don’t assume that just because a dealer has been dealing with coins for many years that they have expertise in authenticity. With today’s technology, there are many fakes on the market, many of which originate in China, and some of those are darn good and hard to detect, even by experienced people. See #4 below.
3. While the opinion of the grade of this coin by this dealer could be correct, it’s quite possible that the opinion of the grade by more experienced professionals can differ from this dealer that sold you this coin. See #4 below.
4. In my opinion, if you’re spending roughly around $500 or more, it pays to buy a coin that has already been professionally authenticated and graded by one of the top Third Party Grading services. Yes, it will cost you a bit more in purchase price, but in my opinion that differential is money well spent, for several reasons. A) You’ll avoid purchasing a counterfeit coin. B ) While grading is subjective, the grading opinions of the top TPG’s is typically much more respected than that of any single dealer (there may be some very limited exceptions). C) The slab will better protect the coin from future accidental and environmental damage D) If the coin is ever stolen, you’ll have a slightly better shot of recovery due to the unique certification number on the holder. E) When it comes time to sell the coin, potential buyers will likely have confidence of the authenticity and grade, compared to you trying to sell a raw coin. F) MOST IMPORTANTLY, buying a coin authenticated and graded by one of the top TPG’s will give you peace of mind. How much is that worth???? Obviously, you wouldn’t have to post the coin on this forum wondering if the coin was authentic!
5. If tomorrow the experts on this forum opine that the coin is fake, return it. Hopefully they’ll opine that the coin is genuine. If that’s the case, I suggest you seriously consider having it submitted to our host (PCGS) for authentication and grading. Others on this forum can share suggestions on the most cost efficient way to get this submitted. It might cost you roughly 5% - 10% of what you paid, since this coin is somewhat low in value and the submission costs are fixed dollar amounts, but I think for the above reasons it’s worth it.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Thanks for your input. I completely understand your point of view. Not everyone is perfect and there still is a chance that it's not real. Also, I don't at all like graded coins. I don't agree with the idea of third party grading as they are the ones who make the most money out of the hobby and in my opinion people have given these companies way too much power over the hobby. I'm sure there are plenty of knowledgeable people here who can look at this coin and authenticate for me. That's just my thoughts on third party grading. Don't mean to offend.
"Also curious about how the "09" in 1909 is weak. Any thoughts?"
Could be a weak strike, could be slightly grease filled along with normal wear for the grade.
My dumb guess would be genuine and may grade in the 12 - 15 range, leaning more to the 12 range.
Looks like there is some stuff on the coin that may or may not need to come off.
It has an overall good look for the grade.
No offense taken.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Unless you’re an expert or a gambler don’t buy expensive raw coins. For the same price or a few more dollars you could have bought a professionally graded and authenticated coin.
lets put aside the whole third party grading thing and lets actually talk about the coin.
Oy vey.
The current coin market for "key date" coins wants coins that are slabbed by a major Third Party Grader. Yours is not and will be looked at as suspect due to the many fake 1909-S VDB coins in the marketplace. Fakes of this coin, some of them very high quality, have been around for many decades. The fakes are not just recent counterfeits coming out of China or other parts of asia.
The fact that you don't like third party grading counts for nothing in the current coin market. The "market" wants them slabbed. Opinions you receive for free on this board are worth exactly that when it comes time to sell.
And guaranteed.
I unfortunately agree with the above.
I did buy an example in a UK auction that looked good and indeed graded MS64RB by our hosts, so amateur opinion was borne out.
Well, just Love coins, period.
@joej132.... Welcome aboard.... Your coin seems to be authentic....That being said, I am not a professional coin grader....Good luck with your coin...Cheers, RickO
Looks ok to me based on what i can take from the images provided
As a coin collector, you buy what you want. I truly understand owning coins that can be handled and not in a plastic coffin, BUT in this day of counterfeit everything, why not buy certified and open it for your own enjoyment, thus owning a certified coin not in plastic. If by chance you someday wish to sell you will have the plastic label and photos to match the 3rd party grading companies certified coin. Just a thought. ADDED. BTW a very attractive coin.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
looks nice
Once a coin has been cracked out of its slab, it becomes a raw coin no matter how many pictures you take of it in the slab and the fact that you saved the label. No one knows what you did with it or to it after it was cracked out. If you want to sell that coin at some future date for its maximum value, you'll have to go through the expense and trouble of having it reslabbed. This is the reality of the coin marketplace.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Looks authentic. But it needs to be certified for all the reasons stated. No bad advice has been offered here.
If you take any more pictures, please shoot them with the coin out of its flip so details can be better seen.
Lance.
I made this exact error many years ago. I knew to buy slabbed coins as I started with my Type Set, but cracked them out so I could house them in a large handsome black Capital Plastics holder/display. Yes, I saved the labels, but as noted in the above quote, it did'nt do ANY good. Around 2013 I got "wise", got rid of my display, and resubmitted all coins to PCGS. While a couple coins got higher grades, and most got the same grade, there were a bunch that got lower grades. Lesson learned!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Looks real to me. Congratulations! My S V.D.B. is from the same die as yours as is my '09 S without the V.D.B.
V.D.B. is kind of faint almost like it's whispering. Dot between "D" and "B" centered as it should be. Style of 'S' mintmark correct. Do you see the tiny notch in the upper loop of the 'S'? That is a subtlety that, when seen, represents absolutely that a 1909 S V.D.B. from obverse die #6 ('s' far low and far right) is authentic. Counterfeiting that notch in the 's' would be virtually impossible.
If your S V.D.B. was mine I would consider not even slabbing it and put it in my Whitman slide window album with its raw brothers and sisters that's how confident I would be in its authenticity.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
+1
Although to be fair, mine used to be in an anacs yellow slab
Collector, occasional seller
.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Listen guys, thanks for taking a look at my coin. For the most part, all of you consider the coin genuine and that's great for me. I'm also not surprised about the response I'm getting about third party grading. Yes, I know this coin is highly counterfeited. Yes, I know people will probably give me less money for it if I sell it raw. Yes, I know collectors today want their coins graded. However... none of that matters to me. I choose my own path and not the one people tell me I should take. That's not going to change any time soon and I hope you guys will be able to respect that. If not, too bad for you then.
More information about 1909-S V.D.B.:
A variety of die deterioration of the No. 3 die (die #6 of 1909-S including those without V.D.B.) exists wherein there was die erosion of the mint mark and along the rim near the date and under the bust. ..... If the piece is a No. 3 low right mintmark and has this feature, it is genuine.
p. 13, Detecting Altered Coins, Fifth Edition by Bert Harsche
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Oh boy....well....just keep in mind, a picture will never replace a professional looking at the coin in hand with a 10x loupe, rotating the light, viewing from a side angle, etc. Even for the professionals on this forum.
It is crazy how easy it is to make a coin look totally different through photography and lighting techniques. I call it photox.
Enjoy the hunt and good luck.
I won't be ale to post more pictures until after I get home from work. Won't be back until late afternoon.
Apparently, you're not familiar with the rules of the forum. Majority rules, regardless of what you want to do with your money and your coin(s).
But seriously, the advice is well intended and generally sound, even if you're not asking for it.
My best guess is that it's genuine.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well said there is no reason you need to have that coin graded, I see no issues from the photos it look legit. It would look perfect in a nice album or even a capital holder of some kind. Down the road when its time to sell then you can decide if you want to spend the money to have it graded and slabbed.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
lol
idk
I know you guys don’t have bad intentions with your advice. I just choose not to listen is all.
Why did you come here for advice if you don't actually listen to it? It's your choice to follow the advice given here or not but you should at least be polite enough to listen to it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
He didn't ask for advice - he asked : "... I just want any of you coin experts opinions on the coin. I was curious as to why the "09" in 1909 is weak and which die pair was used for this coin as I know there were four used. If any of you have doubts to its authenticity, please let me know. Thanks. "
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
that is really neat. almost identical to the one i did but i've never seen that one before. do you mind sharing what publication has that as it probably has other useful info.
Most on this post welcome new members, and go out of their way to try to help. But.... less so for those who do not appreciate it or seem to carry an attitude. Your comments have made me reluctant to provide any opinion on the coin. But others have given you excellent advice. Up to you whether to accept or not. To each their own.
PerryHall, I’m not trying hurt or offend anyone. Relax man, I just wanted people to look at it and authenticate it. Most have concluded that it’s real and that’s all I needed.
I understand many of the people here all love your graded coins and that’s completely fine. I don’t and that’s not going to change. Please respect that.
I choose not to listen to you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm not sure of the original source. It was posted to a Cointalk thread about 10 years ago.
Lance.
I wouldn't have it graded anyway, too worn out looking for me. Actually, I probably would so I could sell it.
Cheers
You may not like graded coins, but there are some coins that I would not buy raw these days, and I’ve been a collector for over 60 years and handled millions of dollars’ worth of material. I used to buy raw better date coins from collections when I was a dealer, but I never sold them raw. I always got them authenticated.
It’s just not worth the risk these days. If you buy a counterfeit and find out years or even months later, you have little or no recourse. It’s a cliché but it’s long been true. “It’s better to be safe than sorry.”
@joej132
Good luck in your endeavor.
Your coin is a Die#4. Everything matches. I didn't slab my coin, it looked real good in the Dansco with all the other coins.
Pete
Before the days of grading and authentication you just had to rely on your own knowledge and how much faith you put in the seller. In 1974 I bought a VG 1916-D dime from a dealer I had worked with quite a bit. In 1976 I decided to sell it and upgrade. I took it back to the same seller, he whipped out his loupe and then announced "I'm not sure it is real". I said, "it had better be since I bought it from you and here's my receipt" He shut up, paid me a fair price and off I went. If was good when he sold it to me, it was good when I sold it back.