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Cashless society?

AttumraAttumra Posts: 66 ✭✭✭

Just a what if question. What would happen to our hobby if they banned cash and made virtual cash only way to buy/trade/sell etc by lets say a chip either on the person or device they carry? Managed by starlink (yes its real and went online Jan 19th this year 60 satilites up with a plan to i belive do 39k to cover the whole world) I believe this would make what we had more valuable? But would kill our Hobby or maybe a already running bullion would take over? thank you.

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Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coin collecting would decline sharply. Out of sight, out of mind.

    Medal collecting might gain in popularity with proper marketing such as took place during the early days of the Franklin Mint.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Clearly and for several reasons such a move would be Unconstitutional. Also this would provide unprecedented power to large money center banks which is just not conducive for a viable economy for mainstream America.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • matt_dacmatt_dac Posts: 627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think it will ever happen. If we were to pretend it were to happen, I don't think it would impact the hobby one bit. Money is money. If a dealer pays rent by transferring funds, transferred funds for a coin purchase will be OK too.

  • AttumraAttumra Posts: 66 ✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Clearly and for several reasons such a move would be Unconstitutional. Also this would provide unprecedented power to large money center banks which is just not conducive for a viable economy for mainstream America.

    How is it unconstitutional? It would act same as fed or treasury would take over? ( I believe how he fed is run, or owned unconstitutional)I would not wish for this also.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The mechanisms for this have existed for some years, but unless forced to do it (I think one of he Scandinavian countries has sort of done this) some people will continue to use cash.

    If coins were eliminated then coin collectors would become like antique collectors - collecting something with a finite and ever-aging supply. I do think the number of collectors would diminish though, since coins would be less and less familiar to newer generations.

    However, change does not exist in a vacuum. As I learned in chemistry class many years ago, and which applies to so many things in life, "for every action, there is a reaction." Without cash and coins, other mediums of exchange would appear for those wanting something physical. Bullion rounds, gold rings, copper ingots, etc.

  • nagsnags Posts: 585 ✭✭✭

    I wonder what percent of transactions are cashless now? Personally, I almost never use cash. Outside a few niche types of transactions, it's odd to see someone pay in cash or with a check these days.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 6,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can't even begin to imagine what the effects of a cashless society would even look like ... let alone being part of.

  • JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 243 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020 8:15AM

    I know that there are strong sentiments here about China, but 1/6th of the world could be using digital currency by the end of this year.

    Jesse C. Kraft
    Assistant Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), Early American Copper (EAC), and the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

  • AttumraAttumra Posts: 66 ✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:

    @Attumra said:

    @coinkat said:
    Clearly and for several reasons such a move would be Unconstitutional. Also this would provide unprecedented power to large money center banks which is just not conducive for a viable economy for mainstream America.

    How is it unconstitutional? It would act same as fed or treasury would take over? ( I believe how he fed is run, or owned unconstitutional)I would not wish for this also.

    If you dive deeper into the subject you will find that the FED is "unconstitutional" in a number of respects. Start by reading "The Creature from Jeckyll Island." There are free copies for viewing on line.

    I don't think the Fed is unconstitutional BUT the way its run is, Being owned privately Not by our government is.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 6,832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s unclear to me what the impact will be on numismatics, but we’re getting close. No one under 35 years old uses paper and metals disks anymore, just old farts like us. I bet we’ll see it within 10 years. Many stores already only accept cards. It’s truly inevitable.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 29,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the advent of email did not kill stamp collecting

    When one questions the dominant narrative, those that fall under the spell of that narrative go into overdrive to discredit them, with whatever distraction they can create, never discussing the actual substance of what was said.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not sure where to start in terms of responding to responses that seem to move in different directions.

    To be clear and so there is no misunderstanding, I am not challenging the constitutionality of Federal Reserve Banking System that was established during the Wilson Administration towards the close of 1913.

    The Constitutionality issue will be addressed in a subsequent response.

    What I do not accept, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, is the concept of being forced to use chips, some type of cyber currency or ANYTHING that requires me to conduct financial transactions that are exposed to a risk/exposure for which I have either minimal or no control over. I am not willing today or at anytime in the future to relinguish control over my finances or what I may be financially liable, including the ability to satisfy debts, buy or sell anything through a means that extends beyond what I am satisfied is secure and without creating long term financial harm for which I may have minimal, if any, recourse.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • isaiah58isaiah58 Posts: 359 ✭✭✭

    Collecting evolves, regardless. Back 20 years ago pre-paid phonecards and other pre-paid stored value cards became a collecting "fad" and were accepted as being numismatic. Many European countries favored those chips in the cards that US credit cards have finally integrated today. Back then a number of the cards actually stored their usage and value, like a subway card used to. Now the value is kept online, and those cards eventually expired regardless of storage method. I would not trust a central depository to control access to my money. The current system has good safeguards in place for electronic access and as noted physical holdings.

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Not sure where to start in terms of responding to responses that seem to move in different directions.

    To be clear and so there is no misunderstanding, I am not challenging the constitutionality of Federal Reserve Banking System that was established during the Wilson Administration towards the close of 1913.

    The Constitutionality issue will be addressed in a subsequent response.

    What I do not accept, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, is the concept of being forced to use chips, some type of cyber currency or ANYTHING that requires me to conduct financial transactions that are exposed to a risk/exposure for which I have either minimal or no control over. I am not willing today or at anytime in the future to relinguish control over my finances or what I may be financially liable, including the ability to satisfy debts, buy or sell anything through a means that extends beyond what I am satisfied is secure and without creating long term financial harm for which I may have minimal, if any, recourse.

    Can I email you if I ever need you to stand up for my rights? Asking for a friend.

    LF 1980s & 1990s 1/10 Au Maple and 1oz Ag Maple. Thank you!

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JesseKraft said:
    I know that there are strong sentiments here about China, but 1/6th of the world could be using digital currency by the end of this year.

    Strong is not even close.....China as a Country can go to you know where!!! They should be held accountable for what they have done to us and the rest of the World!!!!!

  • matt_dacmatt_dac Posts: 627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    Not sure where to start in terms of responding to responses that seem to move in different directions.

    To be clear and so there is no misunderstanding, I am not challenging the constitutionality of Federal Reserve Banking System that was established during the Wilson Administration towards the close of 1913.

    The Constitutionality issue will be addressed in a subsequent response.

    What I do not accept, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, is the concept of being forced to use chips, some type of cyber currency or ANYTHING that requires me to conduct financial transactions that are exposed to a risk/exposure for which I have either minimal or no control over. I am not willing today or at anytime in the future to relinguish control over my finances or what I may be financially liable, including the ability to satisfy debts, buy or sell anything through a means that extends beyond what I am satisfied is secure and without creating long term financial harm for which I may have minimal, if any, recourse.

    Do you use credit cards, maintain a bank account, or buy online? I'm not picking a fight, but if yes, you must know the control you wish to maintain is long gone already. It's like the almost constant notifications about compromised online records. It's so common now it's practically spam to get those notifications. I'm not thrilled with it, but I recognize it as a tide lifting all boats.

  • Kirk222Kirk222 Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @JesseKraft said:
    I know that there are strong sentiments here about China, but 1/6th of the world could be using digital currency by the end of this year.

    Strong is not even close.....China as a Country can go to you know where!!! They should be held accountable for what they have done to us and the rest of the World!!!!!

    I agree. If ever there was a nation that went way beyond the line, it's China. I saw a documentary about Chinese prisoners that were executed for high crimes. Their organs were sold on the Black Market. There isn't anything they don't seem to be willing to do. Sorry for the rant.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is somewhat comical and if I get banned because of my reply than so be it. I believe in transparency.

    Azurescens... I am one of the most liberal personalities that participates on this forum. And in this instance in connection with this issue, I suspect that there are those that may now see me as a reactionary ... Afraid of the future and the technology that should make things easier. And the reality is, I am just not able to see it that way. People may have some doubt for what they are not able to understand. More importantly, and perhaps because of that doubt, people should have the right to choose what is consistent with their level of comfort which should not be an imposition... Period.

    I will never retreat from standing firm in my conviction that the Federal Government has a distinct obligation in providing a means to conduct commerce which includes coinage and the establishment of currency that will satisfy debts and all aspects of commerce.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,813 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020 4:41PM

    I do not bank on line. Never have and never will. And there is difference between having money in a bank, in an account that is FDIC insured, than on line banking that may not be secure.Credit cards have contracts and with those contracts, there are financial limitations in terms of liability imposed on the card holder. And that likely explains the interest rate today that is charged to accounts given the current lows in interest rates that have NEVER been seen in my lifetime... Except for the 2008 financial meltdown

    Matt_dac... You can laugh at me... Frankly, I am unable to care what you think given what has already transpired with hacks into banks and other institutions that were believed to be secure. And I remain responsible for my boat... Regardless as to what happens to others or how how much I may care about them.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • AttumraAttumra Posts: 66 ✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    @derryb said:
    the advent of email did not kill stamp collecting

    Yep, just look at all those posts and heated discussions in the Stamp Forum! >:)

    Sad but true stamps are dead I think my father has many and they're not worth much now. Very hard finding buyer in this day and age.

  • JedPlanchetJedPlanchet Posts: 881 ✭✭✭

    Outright ban on cash - no. But the COVID-19 experience will likely convince more people to stop using cash. I collect the ATB Quarters from circulation and I noticed that it had already gotten more difficult the past couple of years. It'll get worse I bet as people become more reticent to have direct contact.

    Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 402 ✭✭✭

    cashless society...Bring it On...

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020 12:19PM

    @Kirk222 said:

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @JesseKraft said:
    I know that there are strong sentiments here about China, but 1/6th of the world could be using digital currency by the end of this year.

    Strong is not even close.....China as a Country can go to you know where!!! They should be held accountable for what they have done to us and the rest of the World!!!!!

    I agree. If ever there was a nation that went way beyond the line, it's China. I saw a documentary about Chinese prisoners that were executed for high crimes. Their organs were sold on the Black Market. There isn't anything they don't seem to be willing to do. Sorry for the rant.

    Just ask them about Tiananmen Square, Winnie the Pooh, Eeyore, or June 4 1989.

    It disconnects Chinese bots from servers and crashes their Internet connections because of the CCP. I can remember this working as far back as dialup and still works today.

    You can put any number of related pieces of information like that with those keywords, and counterfeiters won't be able to open your image or post. Just put a Winnie the Pooh face on all your coin images.

    I'm not kidding.

    They also have concentration camps for the Uyghurs. While I'm thankful the world (finally) cared so much when it was happening to my people, I'm really disappointed that it's 80 years later and people just let it happen, nbd. Just like kids in cages at the US border.

    But I'm disgusted nobody on the international stage can stand up for the systemic eradication of a native peoples whose only crime is not being Han Chinese. Nuke em. Mess with my coins and genocide? Byeeee.

    LF 1980s & 1990s 1/10 Au Maple and 1oz Ag Maple. Thank you!

  • derrybderryb Posts: 29,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @derryb said:
    the advent of email did not kill stamp collecting

    Well, something sure did. :D

    When one questions the dominant narrative, those that fall under the spell of that narrative go into overdrive to discredit them, with whatever distraction they can create, never discussing the actual substance of what was said.

  • nagsnags Posts: 585 ✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:

    I will never retreat from standing firm in my conviction that the Federal Government has a distinct obligation in providing a means to conduct commerce which includes coinage and the establishment of currency that will satisfy debts and all aspects of commerce.

    That doesn't mean that businesses need to accept it. At a certain point all retail will be cashless. Dealing with cash won't be worth their while.

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People still collect ancient coins, even from civilizations no longer existing. If somehow the world became cashless, there would still be collecting. It would have a smaller scope and the prices would rise slowly over time, but it would exist without question.

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 611 ✭✭✭

    Back to the good ole days?

  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 6,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    the advent of email did not kill stamp collecting

    Stamp collecting was on the skids long before email. I remember stamp dealers in town. Haven't seen a stamp dealer anywhere in years.

    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 7,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    I do not bank on line. Never have and never will. And there is difference between having money in a bank, in an account that is FDIC insured, than on line banking that may not be secure.Credit cards have contracts and with those contracts, there are financial limitations in terms of liability imposed on the card holder. And that likely explains the interest rate today that is charged to accounts given the current lows in interest rates that have NEVER been seen in my lifetime... Except for the 2008 financial meltdown

    Matt_dac... You can laugh at me... Frankly, I am unable to care what you think given what has already transpired with hacks into banks and other institutions that where believed to be secure. And I remain responsible for my boat... Regardless as to what happens to others or how how much I may care about them.

    I'm not sure about the constitutional imperative of minting/printing money. I will note that several of my local restaurants no longer accept cash (and this was prior to Covid-19). I highly doubt there will be any governmental or legal action which forces them to resume doing so.

    All that aside, I think if cash went away completely, it would probably have a positive impact on coin collecting. Antiquated classes of objects are often more highly prized as collectibles.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have been on an airline unwilling to accept cash... Never pushed the issue. I suspect the entity unwilling to accept US currency within the US would be on the wrong side of the argument.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • stockdude_stockdude_ Posts: 135 ✭✭✭

    It absolutley could happen. Pelosi tried to slip in a crypto bill in one of the bailout bills for Corona.

  • stockdude_stockdude_ Posts: 135 ✭✭✭

    @Azurescens said:

    @Kirk222 said:

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @JesseKraft said:
    I know that there are strong sentiments here about China, but 1/6th of the world could be using digital currency by the end of this year.

    Strong is not even close.....China as a Country can go to you know where!!! They should be held accountable for what they have done to us and the rest of the World!!!!!

    I agree. If ever there was a nation that went way beyond the line, it's China. I saw a documentary about Chinese prisoners that were executed for high crimes. Their organs were sold on the Black Market. There isn't anything they don't seem to be willing to do. Sorry for the rant.

    Just ask them about Tiananmen Square, Winnie the Pooh, Eeyore, or June 4 1989.

    It disconnects Chinese bots from servers and crashes their Internet connections because of the CCP. I can remember this working as far back as dialup and still works today.

    You can put any number of related pieces of information like that with those keywords, and counterfeiters won't be able to open your image or post. Just put a Winnie the Pooh face on all your coin images.

    I'm not kidding.

    They also have concentration camps for the Uyghurs. While I'm thankful the world (finally) cared so much when it was happening to my people, I'm really disappointed that it's 80 years later and people just let it happen, nbd. Just like kids in cages at the US border.

    But I'm disgusted nobody on the international stage can stand up for the systemic eradication of a native peoples whose only crime is not being Han Chinese. Nuke em. Mess with my coins and genocide? Byeeee.

    Not to mention the 10's of millions killed during Mao's cultural revolution

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 7,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    I have been on an airline unwilling to accept cash... Never pushed the issue. I suspect the entity unwilling to accept US currency within the US would be on the wrong side of the argument.

    Actually, I did a quick bit of research and you may be right. NYC recently passed a law making cashless establishments illegal in the city. Massachusetts has had a state law on the books since 1978 doing the same. Will be interesting to see if this becomes a trend.

    There's a loophole in the NYC law whereby a business is exempt if they have a machine on premises to load cash onto a debit card. Sorry if this digression was OT.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Banning cash would start a ...stampede.... to gold.

    ....Monetary Artifact Researcher.... B)

  • JBKJBK Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020 6:05PM

    @CoinJunkie said:

    I'm not sure about the constitutional imperative of minting/printing money. I will note that several of my local restaurants no longer accept cash (and this was prior to Covid-19). I highly doubt there will be any governmental or leg <3o:):|B) al action which forces them to resume doing so.

    A few states have laws that businesses must accept cash (requiring credit or debit cards is seen as discrimination against lower income groups).

    As for your local restaurants not accepting cash, I guess you hang out with a higher class of people than I do. A couple places I go to only accept cash. :D

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 7,011 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    @CoinJunkie said:

    I'm not sure about the constitutional imperative of minting/printing money. I will note that several of my local restaurants no longer accept cash (and this was prior to Covid-19). I highly doubt there will be any governmental or leg <3o:):|B) al action which forces them to resume doing so.

    A few states have laws that businesses must accept cash (requiring credit or debit cards is seen as discrimination against lower income groups).

    As for your local restaurants not accepting, I guess you hang out with a higher class of people than I do. A couple places I go to only accept cash. :D

    I followed up on my original post which you quoted above. Based on subsequent Googling, I found Massachusetts is the only state with a law against cashless establishments. I just double-checked and New Jersey has also recently passed such a law. Can you cite any others?

    LOL on the bolded comment above. I live in a major university town and the referenced establishments cater to students primarily!

  • JBKJBK Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:

    @JBK said:

    @CoinJunkie said:

    I'm not sure about the constitutional imperative of minting/printing money. I will note that several of my local restaurants no longer accept cash (and this was prior to Covid-19). I highly doubt there will be any governmental or leg <3o:):|B) al action which forces them to resume doing so.

    A few states have laws that businesses must accept cash (requiring credit or debit cards is seen as discrimination against lower income groups).

    As for your local restaurants not accepting, I guess you hang out with a higher class of people than I do. A couple places I go to only accept cash. :D

    I followed up on my original post which you quoted above. Based on subsequent Googling, I found Massachusetts is the only state with a law against cashless establishments. I just double-checked and New Jersey has also recently passed such a law. Can you cite any others?

    LOL on the bolded comment above. I live in a major university town and the referenced establishments cater to students primarily!

    Massachusetts is probably the one I was thinking of. I am not sure on others but I had the impression that there were at least one or two more.

    That is funny but I guess not surprising that college students don't use cash at restaurants. I have seen twenty-somethings use debit or credit cards for everything, including a bottle of Coke out of a machine.

  • jabbajabba Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I rarely used cash how ever since this mess has happened I’ve leaned back to cash a little especially for tips on take out just something about cash I’m your pocket I can see it going away anytime soo

  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The issue with cash is anonymity. The government will not allow the creation of any more means of exchange that is anonymous (crypto is a big threat here, and a thorn in their philosophical side). 4% of Americans will not use a form of payment that requires ID. It is true that those 4% are generally very poor (although not all are) and don't have much political clout, but they do have some. So something has to give. I will say that none of the people on these boards fit the average demographic profile of this group.

    It would surprise you about how many people still use checks, although not in the volumes they used to. Most checks, however, are now business checks. Banks still make money processing checks, so they won't stop unless someone makes them. I talked to a corporate treasurer who still floats one check a year...he pays a $100MM tax bill on Christmas eve and generally gets free interest on that money for 2 weeks.

    When the Federal Reserve was created, the US couldn't just print their way out of financial disasters. The people who were in the meeting at Jekyll Island provided the money to set it up...that's why they owned it, the stock wasn't free you had to buy it and there weren't many people in the world that had enough $ to get invited. That may have changed, but the info is closely held.

    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • derrybderryb Posts: 29,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020 8:12PM

    @topstuf said:
    Banning cash would start a ...stampede.... to gold.

    don't you think cash alternatives would also eventually be on the chopping block? The ONLY reason to outlaw cash and not keep it as an option (as is now the case) is to remove the ability to have possession of one's own money. Banning the use of cash will be attempted under the guise of eliminating illegal and under the table transactions.

    When one questions the dominant narrative, those that fall under the spell of that narrative go into overdrive to discredit them, with whatever distraction they can create, never discussing the actual substance of what was said.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 29,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    I have been on an airline unwilling to accept cash... Never pushed the issue. I suspect the entity unwilling to accept US currency within the US would be on the wrong side of the argument.

    Understandable, I have been on a few commercial planes that didn't have a cash register in the galley or stewardesses with the little coin thingies on their belts.

    When one questions the dominant narrative, those that fall under the spell of that narrative go into overdrive to discredit them, with whatever distraction they can create, never discussing the actual substance of what was said.

This discussion has been closed.