It would have no effect or a mildly positive effect because it would make coins more "historical".
Book collecting is still doing fine even though print publications are phasing out.
Baseball cards sell for record money even though I haven't seen a kid with a pack of baseball cards in 30 years.
Paintings sell for crazy money even though photography pretty much ended the era of painting more than 100 years ago.
Old maps have a vibrant market even though GPS is now used for navigation.
@savitale said:
It would have no effect or a mildly positive effect because it would make coins more "historical".
Book collecting is still doing fine even though print publications are phasing out.
Baseball cards sell for record money even though I haven't seen a kid with a pack of baseball cards in 30 years. Paintings sell for crazy money even though photography pretty much ended the era of painting more than 100 years ago.
Old maps have a vibrant market even though GPS is now used for navigation.
Painting as an art form is very much alive and well. A significant percentage of paintings on the list of highest prices fetched at auction were painted in the last hundred years.
It won't happen in our life time but I can see a cashless future society where everyone would have an embedded microchip. Coins would become antiques and highly collectable. The mint would continue to produce annual proof set and mint sets, commemorative coins, and bullion coins since these generate revenue and are quite profitable to the government.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@PerryHall said:
It won't happen in our life time but I can see a cashless future society where everyone would have an embedded microchip. Coins would become antiques and highly collectable. The mint would continue to produce annual proof set and mint sets, commemorative coins, and bullion coins since these generate revenue and are quite profitable to the government.
The United States Mint has Lost money on annual proof sets and mint sets for YEARS...
@topstuf said:
I like credit cards because Penelope Garcia can find me easlier.
Years ago I used to watch "Criminal Minds" but I had to stop as the story lines were way too dark. It was starting to affect my outlook and gave me nightmares.
But wait.....I thought all the digital money is backup up by the trillions of Sacagawea and Presidents dollars sitting in the Treasury's and banks' vaults.
@PerryHall said:
It won't happen in our life time but I can see a cashless future society where everyone would have an embedded microchip. Coins would become antiques and highly collectable. The mint would continue to produce annual proof set and mint sets, commemorative coins, and bullion coins since these generate revenue and are quite profitable to the government.
The Mint would stop making this now if they were allowed to do so. It is a giant money pit for them, except for the bullion coins...and even some of the lose money.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
@PerryHall said:
It won't happen in our life time but I can see a cashless future society where everyone would have an embedded microchip. Coins would become antiques and highly collectable. The mint would continue to produce annual proof set and mint sets, commemorative coins, and bullion coins since these generate revenue and are quite profitable to the government.
The United States Mint Lost $21.2 M in FY2018 on numismatic side.
The United States Mint Lost $6.9 M in FY2019 on numismatic side.
The United States Mint has had 54 price Increases in FY2020 and could Possibly be profitable on the numismatic side in FY2020 IF it wasn't for Covid-19 that will mean that the United States Mint will Lose money again in FY2020 on the numismatic side.
@vplite99 said:
I rarely use cash anymore, except in casinos. My debit card requires 25 transactions a month & my Visa gives cashback on everything.
Understand that merchants have increase the price on what you buy to cover the credit card processing fee that they have to pay.
Why is the cash price higher for unleaded?
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS). Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
Using a credit card which has contractual obligations and limits of liability for the card holder is a much different position that on line banking or what would likely be invisioned in a cashless society.
There is a difference between going to a bank and conducting a transaction within that bank than using an ap which has a greater likelihood of being hacked.
Also, keep in mind that the estimates are that 55 million Americans either have no bank account or are under banked and that amounts to 22% of the population. It is just simply not possible nor appropriate to impose this on anyone. And for those that want on line banking... Have at it but don't impose this crap on me.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days.
Yet you say:
Digital money is NOT credit cards.
While most service workers receive their tips through credit cards that the employer processed, I have never met a waiter that processed credit cards himself.
Ask anyone you know who is a service worker, "would you prefer to be tipped in cash or have it added to the bill and paid with a credit card?" There is a reason that cash is king.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Years ago I used to watch "Criminal Minds" but I had to stop as the story lines were way too dark. It was starting to affect my outlook and gave me nightmares.
You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days.
Yet you say:
Digital money is NOT credit cards.
While most service workers receive their tips through credit cards that the employer processed, I have never met a waiter that processed credit cards himself.
Ask anyone you know who is a service worker, "would you prefer to be tipped in cash or have it added to the bill and paid with a credit card?" There is a reason that cash is king.
Again, you are thinking in a cash society. People only prefer cash because they can hide it and/or there is a transaction fee. There is no reason why there NEEDS to be cash. Ask your waiter if you can Venmo them a tip, I'm sure they'll say yes - unless their business shares tips and insist they go through central processing.
90+% of all financial transactions have been digital for 50 years.
When was the last time your employer rolled in with a briefcase full of cash to pay you? Checks have been digital since computers entered industry - they are simply written notes for one bank to digitally move money to another bank.
Credit cards - digital
checks - digital
automatic payments - digital
venmo - digital
PayPal - digital
apple/google/samsung Pay - digital
The government just distributed a trillion dollars - all digital!
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
And for that reason alone, it is well worth having. FAR more worth having than a digital balance of anything.
The REAL tragedy is that we now have to hide from "our" country.
I'm not arguing for or against it. I'm just saying that it is ignorant to say that physical money can do something that digital money cannot...other than go into the bottom of a hole. Even then, I imagine a clever programmer can probably find a way. Aren't the cryptos essentially encrypted in a hole.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
No, you really really don't.
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
You can throw the strawman argument that no one turns down cash, but that isn't the same point. Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
Urban areas this may be true. Rural areas, NOPE. Try buying goods or services from farmers or mom & pop businesses out in the country. I'm sure if forced to they could adapt. Just not happening now.
I use cash to negotiate discounts on services. I have done this on amounts up to $5k. The point is it's untraceable. I do not do this on anything I need a warranty on. I have personally seen cash transactions over $500k, although it has been a while. I have a nephew who does real estate in Amish country and it's all cash, all the time, even on a 500 acre farm.
On credit cards..it's 3% if you're a small business, it's 1.5% to the big boys. Outside the US, the card companies survive nicely on 0.5%...go figure.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
No, you really really don't.
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
Go to a restaurant (or other establishment) that only accepts cash payments. These do exist in my area, and I'm sure across the rest of the world, PARTICULARLY in underdeveloped areas. You're the one throwing up the strawman with "tomorrow". We're talking about the utility of cash TODAY. Even if I play your game, it would take well more than a day for all the cash-only establishments to fully convert to digital. Some street vendors might choose to cease operations rather than deal with the added overheads. So I wouldn't be able to buy their wares anymore. ETC.
Now excuse me while I go back to banging my head against the wall. Turns out it is slightly more enjoyable than this argument...........
@jmlanzaf said:
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
@jmlanzaf said:
Again, you are thinking in a cash society. People only prefer cash because they can hide it and/or there is a transaction fee. There is no reason why there NEEDS to be cash. Ask your waiter if you can Venmo them a tip, I'm sure they'll say yes - unless their business shares tips and insist they go through central processing.
When running a business, handling cash can be quite costly. The work counting, processing, tracking, and the security/related losses surrounding cash is expensive. The three businesses near me (one brewery, two restaurants) told me the reason they went to cards only was to avoid these costs/headaches. Yes, they have to pay the credit card fee, but they believe it’s close to a wash overall. I expect more local businesses will follow along as well. It's inevitable.
Stay safe -
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
No, you really really don't.
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
You can throw the strawman argument that no one turns down cash, but that isn't the same point. Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
A lot of people want cash so they don't have to pay sales tax or income tax on it. Believe it or not, many people don't like to share their hard earned money with the government who will waste it on frivolous spending.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
No, you really really don't.
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
You can throw the strawman argument that no one turns down cash, but that isn't the same point. Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
You ever tried to buy contraband (or cannabis, before it was legal) with a credit card? Disclaimer: I'm not advocating such activities.
The point I'm making is if the payee only accepts cash, then yes, the transaction requires cash. And the reasons the payee might only accept cash go well beyond being able to bury it in a hole. You're smart enough to think of those if you apply yourself to it.
@jmlanzaf said:
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
Let me re-word my earlier post for your very hard head:
For one to remove his money from the bank and hold it himself requires cash. (A necessity if bank interest rates go negative.)
Transactions in times of no electricity or no wi-fi require cash.
Transactions with another party who does not accept electronic transfers require cash.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
1) If physical cash is banned, that does not mean tangible items of value will cease to exist. Proper and original mediums of exchange, such as gold and silver bullion coins being traded for other items, will still occur.
2) Other forms of barter will still transpire. People will trade cars and land for valuable coins. And vice versa.
3) High Rarities that usually sell at auction (coins $25K and up) will likely see no adverse effects, because most of those money transfers are already digital through bank wires and ACH, etc.
4) There will be severe social backlash, because of the privacy removal implications. Mandating all transactions go through a traceable registry of monetary exchanges effectively removes all privacy in commerce, which would have severe implications not only for gold/silver coin sellers and buyers, but also waitresses who usually receive their tips in cash, garage sales, mom and pop businesses, illegal aliens who work for cash, strippers, and many small-time entrepreneurs would be adversely affected.
5) Such a proposal would inevitably be used for tyrannical purposes; if the government banned cash AND banned buying bullion or guns, or mandated a national registry of gold/silver coins or bullion ownership, similar to a proposed national gun registry, the backlash would result in what we are seeing in Michigan right now - times ten. (Armed people showing up at the legislature). Let's not pretend these subjects don't overlap - a significant percentage of the crowd into gold/silver bullion (distrust of government money) are also proponents of the Second Amendment/self-defense, and if they came after one group, it would likely result in a snowball effect of coming after the other as well. Many politicians already want to come after the latter. . .
6) Many politically-inclined authoritarians already want to ban cash in order to make every transaction traceable, and to remove all right to privacy in our society, so that they can punish political dissent and their opposition. It has long been known that the IRS has been used as a political weapon by politicians in office against their political enemies. Eliminating all privacy in commerce would have disastrous consequences.
7) A very Orwellian proposition we will likely see attempted, though likely to fail as well, within our lifetimes. (For those of us on the younger side).
Credit cards and online payments were already putting the nails in the coin coffin, but I still used some minimal amount of cash. The coronavirus has driven this to zero.
@jmlanzaf said:
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
Let me re-word my earlier post for your very hard head:
For one to remove his money from the bank and hold it himself requires cash. (A necessity if bank interest rates go negative.)
Transactions in times of no electricity or no wi-fi require cash.
Transactions with another party who does not accept electronic transfers require cash.
Let me respond:
This falls under digging a hole. So, we agree.
No electricity - perhaps. Although transactions run through cell phone towers have batter back-up. We've already discussed this. I half agree, because if you remember the Northeast blackout, businesses refused to transact business even in cash without the electricity to handle inventory, etc. But, yes, I could pay you during a blackout in cash. Of course, I could also write a check which is also cashless. So, I'm going to stay at "half agree"
This is a ridiculous strawman. In a cashless society, this preference isn't an option.
Even people using cash are using it 10% of the time EXCEPT for the bottom 20% of the socioeconomic ladder who don't use banks. You'll see them at the post office on the first of the month turning cash into cashless money orders to pay their bills.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
No, you really really don't.
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
You can throw the strawman argument that no one turns down cash, but that isn't the same point. Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
You ever tried to buy contraband (or cannabis, before it was legal) with a credit card? Disclaimer: I'm not advocating such activities.
The point I'm making is if the payee only accepts cash, then yes, the transaction requires cash. And the reasons the payee might only accept cash go well beyond being able to bury it in a hole. You're smart enough to think of those if you apply yourself to it.
Actually, you can buy cannabis with venmo, even on the streets. It is truly generational. Even hookers take digital now.
"Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing."
Look for PMD and post here claiming that you have discovered a rare error.
Although less cash is used in the U.S. now than previously, I believe that trend has leveled off and cash is still used for 40-50% of transactions under $25. So that's still plenty of Americans that don't want to give up on cash yet.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@jmlanzaf said:
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
@jmlanzaf said:
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
Get it slabbed by PCGS
Everything you can do with cash is included in "burying it in a hole."
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
@jmlanzaf said:
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
Let me re-word my earlier post for your very hard head:
For one to remove his money from the bank and hold it himself requires cash. (A necessity if bank interest rates go negative.)
Transactions in times of no electricity or no wi-fi require cash.
Transactions with another party who does not accept electronic transfers require cash.
Let me respond:
This falls under digging a hole. So, we agree.
No electricity - perhaps. Although transactions run through cell phone towers have batter back-up. We've already discussed this. I half agree, because if you remember the Northeast blackout, businesses refused to transact business even in cash without the electricity to handle inventory, etc. But, yes, I could pay you during a blackout in cash. Of course, I could also write a check which is also cashless. So, I'm going to stay at "half agree"
This is a ridiculous strawman. In a cashless society, this preference isn't an option.
@sellitstore said:
"Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing."
Look for PMD and post here claiming that you have discovered a rare error.
Although less cash is used in the U.S. now than previously, I believe that trend has leveled off and cash is still used for 40-50% of transactions under $25. So that's still plenty of Americans that don't want to give up on cash yet.
I can at least have a belief that I have greater control of what financial resources that I have instead of relying on digital ramifications that have components and consequences that are not within my control. And I am not willing to trade my control over some perceived convenience that is eroding what little control I have left.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Some of you guys arguing Against a Cashless Society...
Grandfather's argued Against the Horseless Carriage
Grandfather's argued Against TV vs. radio
Argued Against cell phones vs. land lines
Argued Against Tesla
Argued Against Beyond Meats
Etc Etc Etc.
Throughout History there's been arguments against Innovation...
Wow 3 pages and still no conclusion or much in the way of plot. Kind of like the Titanic going in circles and just missing each iceberg.
My own little story here is that when I went to renew my driver's license at my local DPS office, the payment system was down. They would not take cash.
You may not realize it, but because of the audience, there is a very obvious bias about poor people in this thread. I have studied payment behavior for the past 40 years and a lot of the "everyone" and "always" arguments are simply not true in certain businesses and at certain income levels. Not everyone is doing this, but there's a lot in this thread. One example is direct deposit...a business cannot use direct deposit of payroll unless they have all the money for next week's payroll in good funds in a bank account 1-2 weeks in advance and many businesses simply don't. There are companies who will lend you that money so you have it in advance, but that just adds another layer of cost. Also, look at the fees for receiving payroll on a prepaid card, some of those fees are borderline larcenous.
@cagcrisp said:
Some of you guys arguing Against a Cashless Society...
Grandfather's argued Against the Horseless Carriage
Grandfather's argued Against TV vs. radio
Argued Against cell phones vs. land lines
Argued Against Tesla
Argued Against Beyond Meats
Etc Etc Etc.
Throughout History there's been arguments against Innovation...
Interesting that I still use radios and landlines, drive gas (hybrid actually) cars, eat real meat, etc., etc. Likewise, while society may now be largely cashless, there are still situations where cash is preferable. Not every innovation completely eliminates the need for what came before.
Comments
It would have no effect or a mildly positive effect because it would make coins more "historical".
Book collecting is still doing fine even though print publications are phasing out.
Baseball cards sell for record money even though I haven't seen a kid with a pack of baseball cards in 30 years.
Paintings sell for crazy money even though photography pretty much ended the era of painting more than 100 years ago.
Old maps have a vibrant market even though GPS is now used for navigation.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Painting as an art form is very much alive and well. A significant percentage of paintings on the list of highest prices fetched at auction were painted in the last hundred years.
Just think how much the G'ment will save not having to mint those pesky pennies and nickels that cost more than they are worth.
Cashless Society...Bring It On...
Can’t happen fast enough...
I Own Big Banks...
I Love the Fed...
It won't happen in our life time but I can see a cashless future society where everyone would have an embedded microchip. Coins would become antiques and highly collectable. The mint would continue to produce annual proof set and mint sets, commemorative coins, and bullion coins since these generate revenue and are quite profitable to the government.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The United States Mint has Lost money on annual proof sets and mint sets for YEARS...
Years ago I used to watch "Criminal Minds" but I had to stop as the story lines were way too dark. It was starting to affect my outlook and gave me nightmares.
But wait.....I thought all the digital money is backup up by the trillions of Sacagawea and Presidents dollars sitting in the Treasury's and banks' vaults.
The Mint would stop making this now if they were allowed to do so. It is a giant money pit for them, except for the bullion coins...and even some of the lose money.
You completely miss my point. You will also not find a service worker who will refuse a digital cash tip. In fact, most of their tips come through credit cards these days. The OP (and you) set up artificial straw men. Everyone will now accept cash when the option is CREDIT CARDS. Digital money is NOT credit cards. Those same people would happily accept digital money if the government facility cash through, say, a Fed gateway with zero transaction fees.
The ONLY thing you can do with physical currency that you can't do with digital currency is HIDE IT. Period.
The United States Mint Lost $21.2 M in FY2018 on numismatic side.
The United States Mint Lost $6.9 M in FY2019 on numismatic side.
The United States Mint has had 54 price Increases in FY2020 and could Possibly be profitable on the numismatic side in FY2020 IF it wasn't for Covid-19 that will mean that the United States Mint will Lose money again in FY2020 on the numismatic side.
Why is the cash price higher for unleaded?
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
Article 1 Section 8 clauses 5 and 6
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Is the US government currently following this requirement?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
No, I get your point, and am telling you that you're wrong. Since arguing with you is about as productive as banging my head against a wall, I'm bowing out here. Cheers.
Using a credit card which has contractual obligations and limits of liability for the card holder is a much different position that on line banking or what would likely be invisioned in a cashless society.
There is a difference between going to a bank and conducting a transaction within that bank than using an ap which has a greater likelihood of being hacked.
Also, keep in mind that the estimates are that 55 million Americans either have no bank account or are under banked and that amounts to 22% of the population. It is just simply not possible nor appropriate to impose this on anyone. And for those that want on line banking... Have at it but don't impose this crap on me.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yet you say:
While most service workers receive their tips through credit cards that the employer processed, I have never met a waiter that processed credit cards himself.
Ask anyone you know who is a service worker, "would you prefer to be tipped in cash or have it added to the bill and paid with a credit card?" There is a reason that cash is king.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Better stay away from "Dexter" then.
And for that reason alone, it is well worth having. FAR more worth having than a digital balance of anything.
The REAL tragedy is that we now have to hide from "our" country.
Again, you are thinking in a cash society. People only prefer cash because they can hide it and/or there is a transaction fee. There is no reason why there NEEDS to be cash. Ask your waiter if you can Venmo them a tip, I'm sure they'll say yes - unless their business shares tips and insist they go through central processing.
90+% of all financial transactions have been digital for 50 years.
When was the last time your employer rolled in with a briefcase full of cash to pay you? Checks have been digital since computers entered industry - they are simply written notes for one bank to digitally move money to another bank.
Credit cards - digital
checks - digital
automatic payments - digital
venmo - digital
PayPal - digital
apple/google/samsung Pay - digital
The government just distributed a trillion dollars - all digital!
I'm not arguing for or against it. I'm just saying that it is ignorant to say that physical money can do something that digital money cannot...other than go into the bottom of a hole. Even then, I imagine a clever programmer can probably find a way. Aren't the cryptos essentially encrypted in a hole.
Physical money laughs at an EMP.
No, you really really don't.
Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing.
You can throw the strawman argument that no one turns down cash, but that isn't the same point. Both you and derry both set up false choices based on preferences. My point is not that some people still prefer cash. My point is that none of those transactions requires cash.
Urban areas this may be true. Rural areas, NOPE. Try buying goods or services from farmers or mom & pop businesses out in the country. I'm sure if forced to they could adapt. Just not happening now.
I use cash to negotiate discounts on services. I have done this on amounts up to $5k. The point is it's untraceable. I do not do this on anything I need a warranty on. I have personally seen cash transactions over $500k, although it has been a while. I have a nephew who does real estate in Amish country and it's all cash, all the time, even on a 500 acre farm.
On credit cards..it's 3% if you're a small business, it's 1.5% to the big boys. Outside the US, the card companies survive nicely on 0.5%...go figure.
Go to a restaurant (or other establishment) that only accepts cash payments. These do exist in my area, and I'm sure across the rest of the world, PARTICULARLY in underdeveloped areas. You're the one throwing up the strawman with "tomorrow". We're talking about the utility of cash TODAY. Even if I play your game, it would take well more than a day for all the cash-only establishments to fully convert to digital. Some street vendors might choose to cease operations rather than deal with the added overheads. So I wouldn't be able to buy their wares anymore. ETC.
Now excuse me while I go back to banging my head against the wall. Turns out it is slightly more enjoyable than this argument...........
Answer your own questions much?
When running a business, handling cash can be quite costly. The work counting, processing, tracking, and the security/related losses surrounding cash is expensive. The three businesses near me (one brewery, two restaurants) told me the reason they went to cards only was to avoid these costs/headaches. Yes, they have to pay the credit card fee, but they believe it’s close to a wash overall. I expect more local businesses will follow along as well. It's inevitable.
Stay safe -
Dave
Let's make one thing clear.
A lot of this thread will never apply to local coin shops.
You can buy something when the power goes off!
A lot of people want cash so they don't have to pay sales tax or income tax on it. Believe it or not, many people don't like to share their hard earned money with the government who will waste it on frivolous spending.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
You ever tried to buy contraband (or cannabis, before it was legal) with a credit card? Disclaimer: I'm not advocating such activities.
The point I'm making is if the payee only accepts cash, then yes, the transaction requires cash. And the reasons the payee might only accept cash go well beyond being able to bury it in a hole. You're smart enough to think of those if you apply yourself to it.
Let me re-word my earlier post for your very hard head:
For one to remove his money from the bank and hold it himself requires cash. (A necessity if bank interest rates go negative.)
Transactions in times of no electricity or no wi-fi require cash.
Transactions with another party who does not accept electronic transfers require cash.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
1) If physical cash is banned, that does not mean tangible items of value will cease to exist. Proper and original mediums of exchange, such as gold and silver bullion coins being traded for other items, will still occur.
2) Other forms of barter will still transpire. People will trade cars and land for valuable coins. And vice versa.
3) High Rarities that usually sell at auction (coins $25K and up) will likely see no adverse effects, because most of those money transfers are already digital through bank wires and ACH, etc.
4) There will be severe social backlash, because of the privacy removal implications. Mandating all transactions go through a traceable registry of monetary exchanges effectively removes all privacy in commerce, which would have severe implications not only for gold/silver coin sellers and buyers, but also waitresses who usually receive their tips in cash, garage sales, mom and pop businesses, illegal aliens who work for cash, strippers, and many small-time entrepreneurs would be adversely affected.
5) Such a proposal would inevitably be used for tyrannical purposes; if the government banned cash AND banned buying bullion or guns, or mandated a national registry of gold/silver coins or bullion ownership, similar to a proposed national gun registry, the backlash would result in what we are seeing in Michigan right now - times ten. (Armed people showing up at the legislature). Let's not pretend these subjects don't overlap - a significant percentage of the crowd into gold/silver bullion (distrust of government money) are also proponents of the Second Amendment/self-defense, and if they came after one group, it would likely result in a snowball effect of coming after the other as well. Many politicians already want to come after the latter. . .
6) Many politically-inclined authoritarians already want to ban cash in order to make every transaction traceable, and to remove all right to privacy in our society, so that they can punish political dissent and their opposition. It has long been known that the IRS has been used as a political weapon by politicians in office against their political enemies. Eliminating all privacy in commerce would have disastrous consequences.
7) A very Orwellian proposition we will likely see attempted, though likely to fail as well, within our lifetimes. (For those of us on the younger side).
Credit cards and online payments were already putting the nails in the coin coffin, but I still used some minimal amount of cash. The coronavirus has driven this to zero.
Cashless? I'm already there.
Pete
Let me respond:
This falls under digging a hole. So, we agree.
No electricity - perhaps. Although transactions run through cell phone towers have batter back-up. We've already discussed this. I half agree, because if you remember the Northeast blackout, businesses refused to transact business even in cash without the electricity to handle inventory, etc. But, yes, I could pay you during a blackout in cash. Of course, I could also write a check which is also cashless. So, I'm going to stay at "half agree"
This is a ridiculous strawman. In a cashless society, this preference isn't an option.
Most everyone is 95% there.
Paychecks - cashless
Retirement accounts - cashless
Mortgages - cashless
Utilities - cashless
Credit cards - cashless
Even people using cash are using it 10% of the time EXCEPT for the bottom 20% of the socioeconomic ladder who don't use banks. You'll see them at the post office on the first of the month turning cash into cashless money orders to pay their bills.
Actually, you can buy cannabis with venmo, even on the streets. It is truly generational. Even hookers take digital now.
"Name one thing you can do with cash that you couldn't do tomorrow if cash were replaced with 100% digital? [Other than bury it in a hole.] There is nothing."
Look for PMD and post here claiming that you have discovered a rare error.
Although less cash is used in the U.S. now than previously, I believe that trend has leveled off and cash is still used for 40-50% of transactions under $25. So that's still plenty of Americans that don't want to give up on cash yet.
Get it slabbed by PCGS
Everything you can do with cash is included in "burying it in a hole."
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
I was recently(last 6 months) at a gas station and their system was down. Pay cash or no buy nothing!
PS...I'm 99% cash free but I will never want to see cash not be an option!
Snort cocaine?
I can at least have a belief that I have greater control of what financial resources that I have instead of relying on digital ramifications that have components and consequences that are not within my control. And I am not willing to trade my control over some perceived convenience that is eroding what little control I have left.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Some of you guys arguing Against a Cashless Society...
Grandfather's argued Against the Horseless Carriage
Grandfather's argued Against TV vs. radio
Argued Against cell phones vs. land lines
Argued Against Tesla
Argued Against Beyond Meats
Etc Etc Etc.
Throughout History there's been arguments against Innovation...
Wow 3 pages and still no conclusion or much in the way of plot. Kind of like the Titanic going in circles and just missing each iceberg.
My own little story here is that when I went to renew my driver's license at my local DPS office, the payment system was down. They would not take cash.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
You may not realize it, but because of the audience, there is a very obvious bias about poor people in this thread. I have studied payment behavior for the past 40 years and a lot of the "everyone" and "always" arguments are simply not true in certain businesses and at certain income levels. Not everyone is doing this, but there's a lot in this thread. One example is direct deposit...a business cannot use direct deposit of payroll unless they have all the money for next week's payroll in good funds in a bank account 1-2 weeks in advance and many businesses simply don't. There are companies who will lend you that money so you have it in advance, but that just adds another layer of cost. Also, look at the fees for receiving payroll on a prepaid card, some of those fees are borderline larcenous.
Interesting that I still use radios and landlines, drive gas (hybrid actually) cars, eat real meat, etc., etc. Likewise, while society may now be largely cashless, there are still situations where cash is preferable. Not every innovation completely eliminates the need for what came before.