Here in New Zealand, cash is rarely used. I can't even remember the last time I had cash in my wallet. It's all "tap and go" or tap and PIN if the dollar amount exceeds a certain threshold (recently raised from $80 to $200 in honour of Covid-19). To me it's a bit like screw caps on wine bottles: seems a bit strange at first but, after you get used to it, you wouldn't want to go back.
"cash rarely used" is nowhere near "cash outlawed." Those that rarely use cash still have the option of taking their money out of a bank. Doesn't seem like a big deal now but you never know. Why give up the option?
@topstuf said:
Banning cash would start a ...stampede.... to gold.
don't you think cash alternatives would also eventually be on the chopping block? The ONLY reason to outlaw cash and not keep it as an option (as is now the case) is to remove the ability to have possession of one's own money. Banning the use of cash will be attempted under the guise of eliminating illegal and under the table transactions.
Sure. Just like booze was "illegal."
It always amazes me how dopey robbers keep cash and it gets found. A simple trip to the coin store would "wash" as much cash as they wanted.
Gold, being money INTERNATIONALLY, is the only sensible thing to count on in any "control" situation.
I sure wish I had some.
For those of you going cashless.. be mindful when using physical cards.
Do NOT place them on the counter. Do NOT hand them to a cashier. When you're done, wipe your card off with an eyeglass wipe. Because people have been coughing into their hands and grabbing those and pushing them into a spot that never gets cleaned. So thousands of snot hands all over your card and right in your wallet. Rub your eye or lick your finger to turn a page and it's lights out in a fortnight.
@Azurescens said:
For those of you going cashless.. be mindful when using physical cards.
Do NOT place them on the counter. Do NOT hand them to a cashier. When you're done, wipe your card off with an eyeglass wipe. Because people have been coughing into their hands and grabbing those and pushing them into a spot that never gets cleaned. So thousands of snot hands all over your card and right in your wallet. Rub your eye or lick your finger to turn a page and it's lights out in a fortnight.
Cash seems far less sanitary overall to me than using a credit card. I can't remember the last time I needed to hand a card to a cashier. I also can't remember the last time bills back in change didn't need to be handled by a cashier.
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
@dcarr said:
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
@dcarr said:
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
The 3% fee would be ok for that - if the money went to the government to pay for services (like a tax).
Instead that money goes to non-government entities (banks), and that isn't fair.
@Azurescens said:
For those of you going cashless.. be mindful when using physical cards.
Do NOT place them on the counter. Do NOT hand them to a cashier. When you're done, wipe your card off with an eyeglass wipe. Because people have been coughing into their hands and grabbing those and pushing them into a spot that never gets cleaned. So thousands of snot hands all over your card and right in your wallet. Rub your eye or lick your finger to turn a page and it's lights out in a fortnight.
Cash seems far less sanitary overall to me than using a credit card. I can't remember the last time I needed to hand a card to a cashier. I also can't remember the last time bills back in change didn't need to be handled by a cashier.
I really don't care what you do or think, to be honest.
Just offering some advice that could save someone's life. Why make excuses? I don't get the point of this. Good luck out there I guess..
Right now when I go shopping I walk in with nothing and walk out with a cart full of food, whatever I want.
I never saw a dollar when I got “paid”. The grocery store never saw a dollar for the food.
I work for a living. So I think I’m really just trading my time or service for the food when it come down to it. But the guy beside me in line doesn’t work His card works the same way.
It rediculous and cant last, trading electronic 0’s for food.
I went to a Dairy Queen yesterday and stood in line. Everybody paid with cash. My last meal in NY City was at a restaurant that only took cash. How would I tip the mailman and garbage pickup guys without cash?
Cashless society will continue to grow, but cash will be around for a long time.
Coins are interesting, people will still want to collect them.
all it would do to the hobby is put an end to the current series. Everything would still be the same and I wouldn't have to keep buying these worthless modern Dimes every year.
If you think it's bad now - wait until they start putting privy marks and colorizing dimes, that will drive you up the wall.
You now have 9,000,000 electrons in your account.
If you really think about it - 9,000,000 electrons is a pittance.
I don't think the Fed is unconstitutional BUT the way its run is, Being owned privately Not by our government is.
In that case, you should re-read roadrunner's post. The Fed isn't a branch of the government, nor is it a government agency. Nowhere in the Constitution is there authorization for a private banking cartel to issue "money" for any purpose, especially to it's own advantage and to the detriment of American citizens.
The Fed is now buying stocks, treasuries, hedge funds, junk bonds and foreign debt "to support the market" with $trillions created out of nothing. Now, private bankers are running the entire show and the assets that they buy are now owned by the private banking cartel - for free.
Their imaginary money now out-competes any money that you've worked for and saved for your entire life. This is not good.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
isn't this all bartering? You labor for your employer who provides you a few electrons for your efforts and his benefit. You exchange those electrons to obtain some other smucks goods or services. Sure the government - all governments grab some of your electrons for the supposed, but often abused, good of the population. It's efficient overall.
The question is - do you really trust that system with all of the inherent pitfalls.
Would you rather own some electrons, a stack of paper/plastic, or a hunk of metal/rocks? Is any of them more valuable than the rest if nobody wants or accepts them? The only real commodity is your effort - I'll build you something and exchange it for something you build or grow. Now you have a problem of what to do with all the lawyers
@dcarr said:
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
The 3% fee would be ok for that - if the money went to the government to pay for services (like a tax).
Instead that money goes to non-government entities (banks), and that isn't fair.
The credit card company (bank) is the one providing the services, so why should the money go to the government, other than what is paid in corporate tax? You claim to be a confirmed capitalist but your response seems to belie that.
@DNADave said: What’s next?
This electron is legal tender.....
And how do I save like Silas Marner without cash?
Next? The "electron" (as you phrase it) is already legal tender. While there are certainly pitfalls to that, there are also incredible advantages in economic efficiency. I will note that it's reasonably trivial to convert your earned electrons into gold or whatever other physical currency you might prefer.
@dcarr said:
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
The 3% fee would be ok for that - if the money went to the government to pay for services (like a tax).
Instead that money goes to non-government entities (banks), and that isn't fair.
The credit card company (bank) is the one providing the services, so why should the money go to the government, other than what is paid in corporate tax? You claim to be a confirmed capitalist but your response seems to belie that.
If the government ran the credit card operations for the benefit of the people (rather than having a for-profit company doing it) the proceeds would significantly offset the taxes that have to be paid. We might even be able to do away with income tax filing every year. And sales tax systems could be significantly simplified and streamlined.
@dcarr said:
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
The 3% fee would be ok for that - if the money went to the government to pay for services (like a tax).
Instead that money goes to non-government entities (banks), and that isn't fair.
The credit card company (bank) is the one providing the services, so why should the money go to the government, other than what is paid in corporate tax? You claim to be a confirmed capitalist but your response seems to belie that.
If the government ran the credit card operations for the benefit of the people (rather than having a for-profit company doing it) the proceeds would significantly offset the taxes that have to be paid. We might even be able to do away with income tax filing every year. And sales tax systems could be significantly simplified and streamlined.
@dcarr said:
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject: https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
The 3% fee would be ok for that - if the money went to the government to pay for services (like a tax).
Instead that money goes to non-government entities (banks), and that isn't fair.
The credit card company (bank) is the one providing the services, so why should the money go to the government, other than what is paid in corporate tax? You claim to be a confirmed capitalist but your response seems to belie that.
If the government ran the credit card operations for the benefit of the people (rather than having a for-profit company doing it) the proceeds would significantly offset the taxes that have to be paid. We might even be able to do away with income tax filing every year. And sales tax systems could be significantly simplified and streamlined.
I don't necessarily want to veer into an argument about the merits and disadvantages of doing away with private banks. I will simply ask why your above argument wouldn't also apply to oil companies, the health care system, etc.?
If I didn't know better, I might think Bernie Sanders hacked your account.
@DNADave said: What’s next?
This electron is legal tender.....
And how do I save like Silas Marner without cash?
Next? The "electron" (as you phrase it) is already legal tender. While there are certainly pitfalls to that, there are also incredible advantages in economic efficiency. I will note that it's reasonably trivial to convert your earned electrons into gold or whatever other physical currency you might prefer.
Legal tender - backed by what? A promise? Faith? Why not issue a thousand trillion more electrons (or dollars) and debase the wealth of the country even further? Raise everyone's salary - except the old who worked hard their whole lives to save a bit.
I do agree that it is extremely efficient and in most circumstances safe - until it's not.
@DNADave said: What’s next?
This electron is legal tender.....
And how do I save like Silas Marner without cash?
Next? The "electron" (as you phrase it) is already legal tender. While there are certainly pitfalls to that, there are also incredible advantages in economic efficiency. I will note that it's reasonably trivial to convert your earned electrons into gold or whatever other physical currency you might prefer.
Legal tender - backed by what? A promise? Faith? Why not issue a thousand trillion more electrons (or dollars) and debase the wealth of the country even further? Raise everyone's salary - except the old who worked hard their whole lives to save a bit.
I do agree that it is extremely efficient and in most circumstances safe - until it's not.
Yep, faith in US government to maintain value in the dollar (whether in paper or electronic form). What's the real difference between increasing the money supply electronically vs. printing money? I'm not arguing specific governmental monetary policies here, just pointing out that moving from physical cash to electronic forms has already largely transpired.
Now if you want to base the money supply on a precious metal, that's a different story and one that's been debated on this forum several times over the years. My belief is that it's untenable in the modern world, but I'm not interested in rehashing that debate yet again here.
@DNADave said: What’s next?
This electron is legal tender.....
And how do I save like Silas Marner without cash?
Next? The "electron" (as you phrase it) is already legal tender. While there are certainly pitfalls to that, there are also incredible advantages in economic efficiency. I will note that it's reasonably trivial to convert your earned electrons into gold or whatever other physical currency you might prefer.
Legal tender - backed by what? A promise? Faith? Why not issue a thousand trillion more electrons (or dollars) and debase the wealth of the country even further? Raise everyone's salary - except the old who worked hard their whole lives to save a bit.
I do agree that it is extremely efficient and in most circumstances safe - until it's not.
Yep, faith in US government to maintain value in the dollar (whether in paper or electronic form). What's the real difference between increasing the money supply electronically vs. printing money? I'm not arguing specific governmental monetary policies here, just pointing out that moving from physical cash to electronic forms has already largely transpired.
Now if you want to base the money supply on a precious metal, that's a different story and one that's been debated on this forum several times over the years. My belief is that it's untenable in the modern world, but I'm not interested in rehashing that debate yet again here.
@DNADave said:
What’s next?
This electron is legal tender.....
And what is this legal tender backed by?
Worldwide faith that it will remain one of most stable currencies in history. Some countries are trying to pull away, but most large transactions are still US dollar based.
@coinkat said:
Clearly and for several reasons such a move would be Unconstitutional. Also this would provide unprecedented power to large money center banks which is just not conducive for a viable economy for mainstream America.
@coinkat said:
I do not bank on line. Never have and never will. And there is difference between having money in a bank, in an account that is FDIC insured, than on line banking that may not be secure.Credit cards have contracts and with those contracts, there are financial limitations in terms of liability imposed on the card holder. And that likely explains the interest rate today that is charged to accounts given the current lows in interest rates that have NEVER been seen in my lifetime... Except for the 2008 financial meltdown
Matt_dac... You can laugh at me... Frankly, I am unable to care what you think given what has already transpired with hacks into banks and other institutions that were believed to be secure. And I remain responsible for my boat... Regardless as to what happens to others or how how much I may care about them.
You are kidding yourself. Your "money in a bank" is no less digital than anyone's online banking. Online banking is just a convenient way to access the same digital money as your walking into a branch.
@coinkat said:
Clearly and for several reasons such a move would be Unconstitutional. Also this would provide unprecedented power to large money center banks which is just not conducive for a viable economy for mainstream America.
I went to a Dairy Queen yesterday and stood in line. Everybody paid with cash. My last meal in NY City was at a restaurant that only took cash. How would I tip the mailman and garbage pickup guys without cash?
Cashless society will continue to grow, but cash will be around for a long time.
Coins are interesting, people will still want to collect them.
This post borders on Amish.
You can tip your mailman and garbage pickup guys with Venmo, Google Pay, Apple Pay or debit cards now. People under 30 pay each other and business with their phones not cash. There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
You are kidding yourself. Your "money in a bank" is no less digital than anyone's online banking. Online banking is just a convenient way to access the same digital money as your walking into a branch.
It's only digital until the teller reaches into the drawer and hands me my cash that I put in my pocket. Up until that point it was only digital because digital is easier than pen and ledger. Guess you don't remember savings account passbooks.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
You are kidding yourself. Your "money in a bank" is no less digital than anyone's online banking. Online banking is just a convenient way to access the same digital money as your walking into a branch.
It's only digital until the teller reaches into the drawer and hands me my cash that I put in my pocket. Up until that point it was only digital because digital is easier than pen and ledger. Guess you don't remember savings account passbooks.
I do. But the point is that until it's turned into paper, it's digital. The OP said money in the bank not money in the pocket. Your money in the bank is NOT paper currency.
@dcarr said:
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
When consumers realized they could "have" now and pay later. Credit cards are primarily a pre-approved loan.
Smart credit card holders use them for convenience, collect rewards for using them, and pay the bill in full every month. I just collected a free $200 from Wells Fargo for using their card to make $X in purchases in the first three months.
@vplite99 said:
I rarely use cash anymore, except in casinos. My debit card requires 25 transactions a month & my Visa gives cashback on everything.
Understand that merchants have increase the price on what you buy to cover the credit card processing fee that they have to pay.
That's true, but most places don't have a cash price. So if you don't use a credit card at the grocery store, you are paying the 2% and not getting the bonus back.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
@s4ny said:
I went to a Dairy Queen yesterday and stood in line. Everybody paid with cash. My last meal in NY City was at a restaurant that only took cash. How would I tip the mailman and garbage pickup guys without cash?
Cashless society will continue to grow, but cash will be around for a long time.
Coins are interesting, people will still want to collect them.
Worldwide faith that it will remain one of most stable currencies in history. Some countries are trying to pull away, but most large transactions are still US dollar based.
I would prefer gold based though.
Really? Gold moved 3% intraday on Friday. Would you have happily paid 3% more for bread in the morning than you would in the afternoon?
The idea that gold was stable money is a historical lie. Gold didn't back currency, armies did. They fixed the price of gold for centuries. Whenever they briefly lost their grip, the populace melted the coinage and cashed in the bullion.
Today, gold is a commodity with a fluctuating price. Using it to back currency would be a disaster. When gold went from $1800 in 2010 to $1200 a couple years ago, the value of your bank deposits would have dropped 33% in value.
Transacting electronically is a great and convenient option. When it becomes the only way you can store your money or spend it, your access to it and where and how you spend it can easily, and without recourse, be dictated to you. For example, the money wizards at the Federal Reserve could easily determine it's time to fuel inflation by setting a negative 5% interest rate on all money in bank accounts. Your first reaction would be to go withdraw it and keep it at home. But wait, there's only digital money now, so your only recourse is to spend what you can before it loses value in the bank. Your forced spending helps the federal reserve attain its inflation goal.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
Yesterday:
Paid my local taxes by check.
I bought a pizza with a debit card.
Daughter was paid by venmo for babysitting.
I bought 1 ton of coal with cash.
Paid for an Ebay purchase with PayPal (credit card).
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
The move to "cashlessness," is a matter of incremental and accumulating convenience, on the part of citizens and businesses alike. Governments willy-nilly and blissfully continue to produce coins by the billions, apparently for seigniorage, since the vast majority sit in bags in warehouses.
Coins are (often) beautiful, historical and desirable for me and others as collectibles, but they simply are bulky, awkward and increasingly unnecessary. If the cashless society implodes, it won't be because we weren't using coins, and coins won't thereafter be the revived medium of exchange.
Comments
Here in New Zealand, cash is rarely used. I can't even remember the last time I had cash in my wallet. It's all "tap and go" or tap and PIN if the dollar amount exceeds a certain threshold (recently raised from $80 to $200 in honour of Covid-19). To me it's a bit like screw caps on wine bottles: seems a bit strange at first but, after you get used to it, you wouldn't want to go back.
Smitten with DBLCs.
"cash rarely used" is nowhere near "cash outlawed." Those that rarely use cash still have the option of taking their money out of a bank. Doesn't seem like a big deal now but you never know. Why give up the option?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Fixed it for ya:
Banning cash would start a ...stampede.... to gold and to the banks.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Sure. Just like booze was "illegal."
It always amazes me how dopey robbers keep cash and it gets found. A simple trip to the coin store would "wash" as much cash as they wanted.
Gold, being money INTERNATIONALLY, is the only sensible thing to count on in any "control" situation.
I sure wish I had some.
We can’t even get rid of the cent and the dollar bill like every other first world country, what makes you think we can get rid of cash all together?
For those of you going cashless.. be mindful when using physical cards.
Do NOT place them on the counter. Do NOT hand them to a cashier. When you're done, wipe your card off with an eyeglass wipe. Because people have been coughing into their hands and grabbing those and pushing them into a spot that never gets cleaned. So thousands of snot hands all over your card and right in your wallet. Rub your eye or lick your finger to turn a page and it's lights out in a fortnight.
Cash seems far less sanitary overall to me than using a credit card. I can't remember the last time I needed to hand a card to a cashier. I also can't remember the last time bills back in change didn't need to be handled by a cashier.
I don't think it would kill the hobby in the short term but would be the beginning of the end.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
The United States Government has shirked one of its most important responsibilities:
To establish and maintain a stable, fair, and fee-free medium of exchange.
This failure has been orchestrated by banks and other corporations.
When and why did it become acceptable for there to be a middle man (credit card company) taking 3% of every transaction ?
Not to mention debasement of the currency, and the Federal Reserve skimming their 6% take off the top of the economy.
If society goes cashless, transaction fees will only get worse. Probably much worse. And everyone will be captive to the banks. And then those banks can implement their ultimate goal: charging everyone a negative interest rate on their balances. They can't do that if there is a cash alternative because everyone would just cash out their accounts rather than pay interest on their own money.
I'm a staunch capitalist, but I think the one industry which should be nationalized is banking. North Dakota has done it right by establishing a state-owned bank. Ellen Brown of the Public Banking Institute has many good articles on the subject:
https://publicbankinginstitute.org/
One way to "resist" is to use dollar coins as much as possible, since those are issued by the US Treasury.
Using paper cash (even if they are Federal Reserve Notes) is preferable to electronic payments.
When businesses decided 3% was a reasonable sum to pay for:
1) Not having to deal with bounced checks (and to a lesser extent, counterfeit bills)
2) Not having as much cash lying around to be stolen by thiefs or employees
3) Most importantly, not losing the business of people who don't like to carry cash or who currently don't have cash to carry
The 3% fee would be ok for that - if the money went to the government to pay for services (like a tax).
Instead that money goes to non-government entities (banks), and that isn't fair.
I really don't care what you do or think, to be honest.
Just offering some advice that could save someone's life. Why make excuses? I don't get the point of this. Good luck out there I guess..
Right now when I go shopping I walk in with nothing and walk out with a cart full of food, whatever I want.
I never saw a dollar when I got “paid”. The grocery store never saw a dollar for the food.
I work for a living. So I think I’m really just trading my time or service for the food when it come down to it. But the guy beside me in line doesn’t work His card works the same way.
It rediculous and cant last, trading electronic 0’s for food.
I went to a Dairy Queen yesterday and stood in line. Everybody paid with cash. My last meal in NY City was at a restaurant that only took cash. How would I tip the mailman and garbage pickup guys without cash?
Cashless society will continue to grow, but cash will be around for a long time.
Coins are interesting, people will still want to collect them.
all it would do to the hobby is put an end to the current series. Everything would still be the same and I wouldn't have to keep buying these worthless modern Dimes every year.
If you think it's bad now - wait until they start putting privy marks and colorizing dimes, that will drive you up the wall.
You now have 9,000,000 electrons in your account.
If you really think about it - 9,000,000 electrons is a pittance.
I don't think the Fed is unconstitutional BUT the way its run is, Being owned privately Not by our government is.
In that case, you should re-read roadrunner's post. The Fed isn't a branch of the government, nor is it a government agency. Nowhere in the Constitution is there authorization for a private banking cartel to issue "money" for any purpose, especially to it's own advantage and to the detriment of American citizens.
The Fed is now buying stocks, treasuries, hedge funds, junk bonds and foreign debt "to support the market" with $trillions created out of nothing. Now, private bankers are running the entire show and the assets that they buy are now owned by the private banking cartel - for free.
Their imaginary money now out-competes any money that you've worked for and saved for your entire life. This is not good.
I knew it would happen.
If they start microchipping people you have A LOT more to worry about than what’s going to happen to coin collecting...
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
isn't this all bartering? You labor for your employer who provides you a few electrons for your efforts and his benefit. You exchange those electrons to obtain some other smucks goods or services. Sure the government - all governments grab some of your electrons for the supposed, but often abused, good of the population. It's efficient overall.
The question is - do you really trust that system with all of the inherent pitfalls.
Would you rather own some electrons, a stack of paper/plastic, or a hunk of metal/rocks? Is any of them more valuable than the rest if nobody wants or accepts them? The only real commodity is your effort - I'll build you something and exchange it for something you build or grow. Now you have a problem of what to do with all the lawyers
What’s next?
This electron is legal tender.....
And how do I save like Silas Marner without cash?
The credit card company (bank) is the one providing the services, so why should the money go to the government, other than what is paid in corporate tax? You claim to be a confirmed capitalist but your response seems to belie that.
Next? The "electron" (as you phrase it) is already legal tender. While there are certainly pitfalls to that, there are also incredible advantages in economic efficiency. I will note that it's reasonably trivial to convert your earned electrons into gold or whatever other physical currency you might prefer.
And what is this legal tender backed by?
If the government ran the credit card operations for the benefit of the people (rather than having a for-profit company doing it) the proceeds would significantly offset the taxes that have to be paid. We might even be able to do away with income tax filing every year. And sales tax systems could be significantly simplified and streamlined.
Now you know that just makes too much sense for our government to consider!
>
Faith in the US Government. Which I would say has all but evaporated.
I don't necessarily want to veer into an argument about the merits and disadvantages of doing away with private banks. I will simply ask why your above argument wouldn't also apply to oil companies, the health care system, etc.?
If I didn't know better, I might think Bernie Sanders hacked your account.
I rarely use cash anymore, except in casinos. My debit card requires 25 transactions a month & my Visa gives cashback on everything.
Legal tender - backed by what? A promise? Faith? Why not issue a thousand trillion more electrons (or dollars) and debase the wealth of the country even further? Raise everyone's salary - except the old who worked hard their whole lives to save a bit.
I do agree that it is extremely efficient and in most circumstances safe - until it's not.
Yep, faith in US government to maintain value in the dollar (whether in paper or electronic form). What's the real difference between increasing the money supply electronically vs. printing money? I'm not arguing specific governmental monetary policies here, just pointing out that moving from physical cash to electronic forms has already largely transpired.
Now if you want to base the money supply on a precious metal, that's a different story and one that's been debated on this forum several times over the years. My belief is that it's untenable in the modern world, but I'm not interested in rehashing that debate yet again here.
I agree - that isn't the answer.
Worldwide faith that it will remain one of most stable currencies in history. Some countries are trying to pull away, but most large transactions are still US dollar based.
I would prefer gold based though.
Could you cite a reference?
No, it died on its own
You are kidding yourself. Your "money in a bank" is no less digital than anyone's online banking. Online banking is just a convenient way to access the same digital money as your walking into a branch.
Could you cite a reference?> @s4ny said:
This post borders on Amish.
You can tip your mailman and garbage pickup guys with Venmo, Google Pay, Apple Pay or debit cards now. People under 30 pay each other and business with their phones not cash. There is NOTHING you can do with paper currency or coins that you can't do electronically. NOTHING. Well, except bury it in the ground.
I would have to respectfully disagree.
While the comment might theoretically be true, in practice it just is not.
There are lots of times when discretely slipping someone a folded up banknote gets you better service, special treatment, or access.
There are also people who prefer cash tips or cash payment for their own reasons.
Then there are people who live "off the grid" who don't or can't use those electronic options.
It's only digital until the teller reaches into the drawer and hands me my cash that I put in my pocket. Up until that point it was only digital because digital is easier than pen and ledger. Guess you don't remember savings account passbooks.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
LOL.
I can take physical possession of my currency and coins if I have doubts about the stability of my bank.
I can take possession of my currency and coins and deny access to them by ANYONE else.
I can transact with my currency and coins when "electronically" is, for some reason, not available. Loss of power, loss of wi-fi, an EMP do not affect my ability to transact in currency and coins.
With my currency and coins I can transact with a party that does not accept electronic transactions.
While I may pay for my meal electronically out of convenience, I can tip the waiter with cash for his convenience.
Not much different than owning physical gold that is in your possession or "owning" physical gold that someone else is holding for you. It boils down to counterparty risk.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Understand that merchants have increase the price on what you buy to cover the credit card processing fee that they have to pay.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I do. But the point is that until it's turned into paper, it's digital. The OP said money in the bank not money in the pocket. Your money in the bank is NOT paper currency.
When consumers realized they could "have" now and pay later. Credit cards are primarily a pre-approved loan.
Smart credit card holders use them for convenience, collect rewards for using them, and pay the bill in full every month. I just collected a free $200 from Wells Fargo for using their card to make $X in purchases in the first three months.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
That's true, but most places don't have a cash price. So if you don't use a credit card at the grocery store, you are paying the 2% and not getting the bonus back.
I said, you could bury it. LOL.
And half of those are artificial. You can tip the waiter with Venmo or digital. You can NOT pay with cash if they only take electronic, etc. And, if you remember the northeast blackout 20 years ago, you still couldn't pay with cash because cashiers couldn't do the math AND all of the store inventories are digital.
So, we're still back to: you can bury cash in a hole and that's about the only thing you can do with physical money that you can't do with electronic.
Coins are interesting TO YOU. Not everyone.
Really? Gold moved 3% intraday on Friday. Would you have happily paid 3% more for bread in the morning than you would in the afternoon?
The idea that gold was stable money is a historical lie. Gold didn't back currency, armies did. They fixed the price of gold for centuries. Whenever they briefly lost their grip, the populace melted the coinage and cashed in the bullion.
Today, gold is a commodity with a fluctuating price. Using it to back currency would be a disaster. When gold went from $1800 in 2010 to $1200 a couple years ago, the value of your bank deposits would have dropped 33% in value.
Transacting electronically is a great and convenient option. When it becomes the only way you can store your money or spend it, your access to it and where and how you spend it can easily, and without recourse, be dictated to you. For example, the money wizards at the Federal Reserve could easily determine it's time to fuel inflation by setting a negative 5% interest rate on all money in bank accounts. Your first reaction would be to go withdraw it and keep it at home. But wait, there's only digital money now, so your only recourse is to spend what you can before it loses value in the bank. Your forced spending helps the federal reserve attain its inflation goal.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I've yet to encounter a service worker who won't accept a cash tip. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some payees who are still cash only. Certain dealers at coin shows fall into that category, by the by. Cash transactions also provide the benefit on being much harder to trace, if that's a consideration. So while the trend is decidedly toward electronic payments, cash still has some unique attributes and utility.
I like credit cards because Penelope Garcia can find me easlier.
Yesterday:
Paid my local taxes by check.
I bought a pizza with a debit card.
Daughter was paid by venmo for babysitting.
I bought 1 ton of coal with cash.
Paid for an Ebay purchase with PayPal (credit card).
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
The move to "cashlessness," is a matter of incremental and accumulating convenience, on the part of citizens and businesses alike. Governments willy-nilly and blissfully continue to produce coins by the billions, apparently for seigniorage, since the vast majority sit in bags in warehouses.
Coins are (often) beautiful, historical and desirable for me and others as collectibles, but they simply are bulky, awkward and increasingly unnecessary. If the cashless society implodes, it won't be because we weren't using coins, and coins won't thereafter be the revived medium of exchange.
Just my two bytes, of course.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...