Should "FULL HEAD" designations be given to Standing Liberty Quarters that are not fully struck?
291fifth
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How do you personally view Standing Liberty Quarters that have a "full head" but have other parts of the coin, such as the date, that are not fully struck? Should such coins receive a "full head" designation?
All glory is fleeting.
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Is the head truly full?
I have seen in hand very few full head Standing Quarters. I have seen some designated full head that shows flatness. Much like Jefferson nickles I do not always agree with the 'Full' designation.
If the head is full I guess it should get the designation but we, as collectors, should understand that it does not necessarily mean full strike.
No.
I don't think the premium for the "Full Head" designation is warranted for such a small area of the coin when there might be other areas which are weakly struck. .
Designations like that are part of a game. Whether you want to play is up to you. If I collected moderns, I wouldn't. The FH issue isn't new---Dave Bowers has been complaining about FH--but weakly struck shield, etc.--coins for some time now.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
No,
Now, go convince everyone else.
If folks would learn how to grade properly and appreciate their coins/hobby who cares what other people think or say about grade, condition, etc. All this HYPE on grading, stickers etc. means in reality all they really care about is the perceived value to the object they own. What in the world did people do before there were other groups to tell them about their coins, and officially mark them as such. and anyway even that has changed so much over the years, what does it all mean. yes I am grumpy this morning...... feeling a bit better now though.
This is something that will eventually evolve. FH describes something that is totally obvious - all the head details are well struck up. I can cut a coin in half, circulate it so no wear is on the head detail, find a set-up strike or off-center coin that has all the head detail and the piece has a FULL HEAD!!!
As usual, a bunch of professional "geniuses" took a tiny part of the design (Liberty's head) to indicate a coin is fully struck and worth a premium, Unfortunately, as some here point out, that is not always the case.
Here again, VALUE rears its ugly head to screw things up and the technical condition of the entire coin is ignored.
Funny thing occurs to me just now. It appears that one proponent of the FH designation including a full shield and date said nothing when weakly struck Morgan dollars with no hair separation over the ear (once limited to 64's) are now graded 65's and higher! As I posted above,grading is evolving.
How about full steps on a Jefferson with a weak obverse?
I will not immerse myself in the nitty gritty detail of these individual 'hype' criteria.... ie. FH, FS, FSB ...since I do not sell my coins, it makes no difference to me - I either like the coin or I do not.... Now to look at my FN (Full Nose) Morgans...
Cheers, RickO
@Insider2 said:
"...grading is evolving."
WHY is grading evolving? Would you feel comfortable if the scale on something you rely on (e.g., a thermometer) were to 'evolve'? I have never thought that the evolution of coin grading during the last 50 years (give or take) could be explained with a straight face to someone new to the hobby.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Ever since FH's came to be, the coins are valued on a continuous grading spectrum that considers overall strike along with the other parameters. While the uninitiated might fall for a single 85-90% FH trap when the rest of the coin has considerable weaknesses, the majority of players in this market do not. They buy the entire coin, not just the "FH" label. Unfortunately, some newbies might got stung their first time into this market (my initiation was in the 1988-89 market). But for the most part anyone buying FH SLQ's by date/in quantity understands this market fairly well.
In my particular situation I had a graded MS66 FH 1924 SLQ which was flawless on surfaces and had stunning eye appeal. The head was around 90% and the wing on the reverse had some weakness. It was graded another 4 times and received all 4 possible grades....MS65, 65 FH, 66, 66 FH. Needless to say, upon getting it back into the original holder grade of 66 FH on the last try....I counted my blessings. No 67 for this one. It taught me a lot about gem SLQ's.
I think that, and similar exercises you have recounted over the years, taught you a lot about the true value of grading. I have frequently found your comments about your grading experiences enlightening.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Here is a PCGS AU 50 graded Standing Liberty Quarter with a FH and full shield rivets. They do exist. mh
By definitive attributes, a coin is full-head or not. It makes no claims on the rest of the design.
I'll look at FH coins and then look to the shield and date to confirm a full strike... but that's just me.
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...a full head is more important to the collector than the full head on the coin he collects
I would not pay a full head premium unless the other detailing was present as well, especially the shield.
The full head designation goes back a long ways. I've seen it used in "Numismatic Scrapbook" magazines from the early and mid forties.
Full head is just not as significant as a full shield.... Those thar collect and insist on a FH designation are missing the big picture. A full shield designation is far more representative of the design, the striking characteristics and what is truly important. Sad that grading is unable to move in a progressive direction to truly reflect and capture what is important in describing the SLQ series.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
You need to know how the various dates by year and branch mint are struck to know on which coins you should expect the J Cline "ultimate full head", along with full shield and rivulets. Ie, if the 17 P Type I Philadelphia coin isn't hammered, find another one. That's the best struck coin of the series.
Most full head coins I've seen are barely made it coins with weakly struck sprigs, a flat ear and a visible ear hole, which you see if you look at the coin for five or ten seconds. I generally try to avoid them. That said, if you want a 30 P FH, that's how its going to look, with missing or weak rivulets and without a fully struck shield.
With the type II SLQs, the early date Philadelphia coins (say 1917 - 1921) are most likely to be fully struck. Not so with the later date Philadelphia mint coins. Branch mint coins of any date rarely have full strikes. I have a 28 S with a J Cline FH, and complete detail on the rivulets and full shield. Those are very scarce.
The problem I had with the series is that the line between a just made it FH (which are the majority of them), and not quite made it, is fluid, and after looking at eight or ten of these coins, I had to stop, or else I'd start getting eye strain or a headache.
Epilogue - I bought a nice, originally toned 17 S Type I in MS 66 FH. I had it stickered. I managed to upgrade it to an MS 67, ten years later
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
That would be a nightmare recalling those that are out with the FH designation presently. Do you really think that those collectors would willingly resubmit their FH SLQs that are NOT fully struck for a depreciation in value? I don't think so.
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Will you pay the FH price for a coin that is otherwise poorly struck?
I would pay more than market if the coin is well struck and has good eye appeal!
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My SLQ type example is PCGS MS62 (not FH). I'm not particularly familiar with this series, can anyone tell from the photos why this coin isn't graded higher?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
No
That was my earlier point. The TPG's may not even agree with themselves at any point in time over the past 30+ yrs. Grading is always fluid....week to week...sometimes influenced by current market conditions....or what big collections have hit the auction block. Recessions tend to mean conservative FH's. Boom times allow for sloppy FH's. One doesn't have to resubmit a "not quite there" FH label coin to get a depreciation in value. It's already there. And once placed for sale into the market place the seller will become well aware of that fact.
If I'm buying a FH SLQ the shield rivets and head wouldn't be enough. I'd want a full date, full drapery, full chain mail, full stars, full edge detail, and the full bird as well. The strike is either FULL or it's not. And there is a pricing continuum from flatly struck to 100% full strike....despite the FH labels awarded by the TPGs (ie not quite there FH coins, barely FH coins, decent FH coins, and real FH coins) One might as call the 90% to 100% strike as it's sub-set grading system as well....FS 80, 83, 85, 88, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100. I can envision SLQ's someday being graded MS 65 FS 97. The entire classic coin market may go that way eventually. A computer should be able to assess strike characteristics better than humans.
This is what a fully struck SLQ looks like.
I would call the 1921 quarter shown as well struck but not fully struck. There is some weakness in the date and the date IS important.
I certainly get the FH designation for sight-unseen coins. This likely was necessary in the old days because of the remarkable difference between a flat head and one that appears normal to the eye, "full" or not. The SLQ's with a flat head are amazingly unappealing. This question could generally apply more aptly to FSB Mercs. In the case of Mercs, a trivial difference in the reverse can mean a huge price difference notwithstanding the strike on the obverse, which should be far more important IMO.
That’s the answer for me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Re the above 21 P. Look at the head. The three sprigs appear to be raised. The hairline is obvious and consistent, and the entire ear sticks out and is well defined. That is a J Cline "ultimate full head." As I wrote above, the early P mint Type II SLQs generally come well struck. This coin is an example.
It has a fully struck shield and strongly struck rivulets. Typically the rivulet at the bottom end of sash and the one below it are weak, even on well struck coins. The chain mail is fully detailed. The horizontal break in the sash is clearly defined (watch out for a break here, this is a high point of the coin and is one of the first places to show wear). All toes on the right foot are clearly defined.
The only areas which are not fully struck are as 291 Fifth pointed out, are the date, and Miss Liberty's outside part of her right leg between the knee and thigh are more well defined, as if she was pumping iron on a regular basis.
Except for a 17 P Type I, you're going to have difficult time finding a nicer strike on an SLQ obverse than this one.
These are truly beautiful coins. However, in addition to all of the above, the problem with this series is that there so many expensive coins in higher grades, that for most of us, it's best to find a type coin of Type I and Type II and move on.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Having the "shield" on the center of the shield struck like that 1921 above is unusual...even more so having all the shield lines separated, both horizontal and vertical.
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According to J.H. Cline, the '23-P is the one that gives FH fits. I have one of those as an example I could share... got to find the pic.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
FH, FS, FT....Full Head, Full Shield, Full toes.
OK so it's a T1. So what?
Yes!
Dave
Well, their heads are clearly full of something and it's not about details.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Wow! It's great to know Mr. Bowers and I think alike. How cool!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Look at it this way.......it's a great way to keep them coming back. Comprende?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
If the coin has a full head, I don't see a problem documenting it.
Pete
It has too early of a die state strike. Well, that argument was good for the Buffalo nickel that failed to receive its 2 feather designation thread. Reason given; Too early of a die state strike. Oh the horror......have they been downgrading coins with early die state strikes? How long have they been doing this?
Truth is, it takes time, a lot of it, to learn what a completely detailed coin looks like. And about 98% of collectors out there, are simply not there yet where a lot of posters here are. They haven't seen enough coins yet. Most have yet to catch the bug to search for them. Coin grading companies are not holding their breaths for everyone to get on board with this. The art would turn out to be a penalty process and collectors would lose interest......because such coins are not easily had and disappointment, depression would set in.....for a number of reasons I won't go into. And I'm not trying to be funny.
And the latter part of my post is not directed at the poster I quoted. It is a very nice well struck mark-free piece and a seemingly undergraded coin. I don't know the logistics and costs whether it be worth sending in again......a hurdle I've been looking at for a long time.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don't see any problem that would make your coin a 62. Of course, it's my opinion as an educated collector.
I'd like to know why for my knowledge.
Have you considered CAC?
Pete
Found that '23-P image... note how you get a bit of hair curl but no head top
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
>
No plans to sent it to CAC at this point. I like the coin either way, and it's my single type example. Just wish I could explain the grade. Thanks to @leothelyon for weighing in as well
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
"My SLQ type example is PCGS MS62 (not FH). I'm not particularly familiar with this series, can anyone tell from the photos why this coin isn't graded higher?"
My 2 cents. The luster looks a bit dullish with the grayish look of an over-dipped coin. Appears to have secondary toning. So the luster is probably the thing holding it back.
This is a series I really haven't dabbled with at all. The problem with the FH designation, however, much like the F-whatever designations of other coins, is that it focuses on one specific feature that is typically indicative of a full strike, but not whether or not the rest of the coin merits the price tag thereunto appertaining, effectively creating an additional binary grading scale with strike removed from being a contributing parameter to the numeric grade. Moreover, the other issue causing coins not to have full detail is that the detail is not in the dies. A totally hammered coin made from mushy dies can have crap detail, and too many people confuse this with a weak strike.
To answer the OP question, give the FH designation when it applies, because it means exactly full head, no more, no less. If the rest of the coin is lacking, hopefully the remaining influence of strike (but hopefully not die state) and eye appeal will influence the numeric grade.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The SLQ FH issue is not unlike the Flat or Full Head issue on Seated half dimes through dollars. The flat head takes away from the overall appearance of the coin, probably more so than any other other feature. Unfortunately or fortunately (?), FH's and other Liberty Seated strike qualities have never caught on with the TPG's....not that they don't radically affect the coin's value. A full head seated coin is no guarantee the coin has full stars, full drapery, full eagle's feathers/wing/claws, full wreath/leaves, etc. In fact, it would probably be pretty rare to have a business strike having all those features "full." And even if you do, there's little pricing premium between a 90% strike and a 95-99% strike.
Liberty’s right leg (to viewer’s left) looks rubby above the knee and ditto for her upper thighs, shoulder and sash.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks. The luster IS a bit flat, so I think this theory has some merit.
Thanks Mark. I’ll take a closer look at these areas and see if there is indeed evidence of run in-hand.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.