Home U.S. Coin Forum

Post your contemporary counterfeits

2

Comments

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sonorandesertrat said:
    Mr. Eureka,
    That plot only offers part of a convincing explanation. Silver fell after WWI (relative to 1900) and didn't recover until midway into WWII. The counterfeiters did not lose money by using sterling silver, but they left plenty on the table. Why did they do that? Because they didn't want to have to refine scrap sterling silver? Was this issue a question of small numbers of blanks needed (driving up refining costs) or were the counterfeit dollars part of a money-laundering scheme? There are unanswered questions, in my opinion.

    I wouldn’t assume that every fake is sterling. They probably used whatever was available. And why not refine sterling and use 900? The savings on raw materials would have been about one cent per coin. Hardly worth the effort.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • EdHayesEdHayes Posts: 39 ✭✭

    Ok, I'll post (again) my Screaming Skull Head of Brittania imitation

    George III halfpence. (Both pics are reverse)

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1935 "Two legged" buffalo, from the same maker as the 1936 that Christian has shown earlier. This is by far the highest grade I've seen for either the 1935 or 1936. Both were listed in Spadone's error/variety guide from the early sixties, presumably as genuine coins.


  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This thread is worth the price of admission! Great reference images for sure. Thanks all. @ricko nice find. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Boosibri and Sonoran . . . . .

    It can be done. Ohhhhhh . . .it can be done!

    A local Credit Union President (I coached two of his sons and one daughter) put together the most impressive 7070 album of contemporary counterfeits I have ever seen . . . . in person, or HERE on the Boards. I am not sure where it is now . . as he passed away from cancer about 5 years ago. He was a man of means . . . but preferred to channel that into an IMPRESSIVE 7070 / Counterfeit that just STUNNED. Except for the 1964-Present issues . . . which were obvious, he had completely awesome pieces. I remember his Buff . . . a 1926-S that was a 64-65. Hammered (probably the first giveaway) . . . . and just the appearance of a $30k+ coin. He popped it out and I looked at it with complete awe. Other than the fact it was a hammered strike of a branch mint . . . . I COULD NOT find the problem . . until he showed me the VERY slight smoothing of the edge where a raised mintmark had been applied. His coin was the one (original) that the ANA and Coin World used to break the story of the "embossed" mintmark.

    He had a connection here in SLC to a (recently collapsed in ignominy) shop that amassed a 6 decade collection of counterfeits . . . including a HUGE pile (like.....rolls) of the Hoffman 1916-D Mercs. They allowed him to surreptitiously place a few of the better key dates into his set. He had a 64-65RD S-VDB . . . a 58-63 16-D Merc . . . a 16 SLQ in 53-55 . . . .and you name it.

    The album has been done. I wish I knew now where it was. I guess I could call one of his kids I coached . . . but I don't want to be a shark . . . .

    It is an impressive undertaking . . . . . . .

    Drunner

  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭

    and yes . . . .he had MUCH more trouble finding a clad quarter than he EVER did getting a Mint State 16-D dime . . . . . .

    Drunner

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,164 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good website and book on "Bad Metal" coinage: https://badmetalcoin.com/

  • This counter-stamp is also on an 1857 Quarter.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sonorandesertrat said:
    Mr. Eureka,
    That plot only offers part of a convincing explanation. Silver fell after WWI (relative to 1900) and didn't recover until midway into WWII. The counterfeiters did not lose money by using sterling silver, but they left plenty on the table. Why did they do that? Because they didn't want to have to refine scrap sterling silver? Was this issue a question of small numbers of blanks needed (driving up refining costs) or were the counterfeit dollars part of a money-laundering scheme? There are unanswered questions, in my opinion.

    According to the newspapers of the time, many of the very deceptive C/F Morgans were in circulation a decade before WWI.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DRUNNER said:
    Boosibri and Sonoran . . . . .

    It can be done. Ohhhhhh . . .it can be done!

    A local Credit Union President (I coached two of his sons and one daughter) put together the most impressive 7070 album of contemporary counterfeits I have ever seen . . . . in person, or HERE on the Boards. I am not sure where it is now . . as he passed away from cancer about 5 years ago. He was a man of means . . . but preferred to channel that into an IMPRESSIVE 7070 / Counterfeit that just STUNNED. Except for the 1964-Present issues . . . which were obvious, he had completely awesome pieces. I remember his Buff . . . a 1926-S that was a 64-65. Hammered (probably the first giveaway) . . . . and just the appearance of a $30k+ coin. He popped it out and I looked at it with complete awe. Other than the fact it was a hammered strike of a branch mint . . . . I COULD NOT find the problem . . until he showed me the VERY slight smoothing of the edge where a raised mintmark had been applied. His coin was the one (original) that the ANA and Coin World used to break the story of the "embossed" mintmark.

    He had a connection here in SLC to a (recently collapsed in ignominy) shop that amassed a 6 decade collection of counterfeits . . . including a HUGE pile (like.....rolls) of the Hoffman 1916-D Mercs. They allowed him to surreptitiously place a few of the better key dates into his set. He had a 64-65RD S-VDB . . . a 58-63 16-D Merc . . . a 16 SLQ in 53-55 . . . .and you name it.

    The album has been done. I wish I knew now where it was. I guess I could call one of his kids I coached . . . but I don't want to be a shark . . . .

    It is an impressive undertaking . . . . . . .

    Drunner

    Be a shark and share it even if they don't wish to seell.

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    Based on your comments and Mr. Eureka's, it would appear that the micro-O counterfeits were not really contemporary counterfeits, but made decades later. Perhaps sterling was used because the alloy was produced from scrap silver (people selling silverware, jewelry, silver service items, etc.), which was cheap and not worth refining to get to 0.900 silver.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sonorandesertrat said:

    @Insider2 said:

    Based on your comments and Mr. Eureka's, it would appear that the micro-O counterfeits were not really contemporary counterfeits, but made decades later. Perhaps sterling was used because the alloy was produced from scrap silver (people selling silverware, jewelry, silver service items, etc.), which was cheap and not worth refining to get to 0.900 silver.

    As I remember reading, the "original" Micro "O" coins were mentioned in the NYT before the 20th Century. Note was made that dollars of very good weight and appearance having a tiny "O" were circulating in San Francisco and other locations.

    The first Micro "O"coin I ever saw was at PCI shortly after the "Signature Series" was started (1991-2?). The coin was BU and was an obvious counterfeit under my scope. It was granular like the 1896 fake we saw a decade earlier (published in the Numismatist). I wrote a comment to the dollar expert that the coin was a counterfeit but my opinion was ignored and the coin was slabbed as genuine in a Signature holder. :(

    IMO, this coin was a "new batch" that was not around at the turn of the Century. It was BU and no way it would have remained that nice all that time.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Guess what I found? See Coin World 5/16/2005 page #8. **Fake "O" Mint Morgan dollars in the news during the 1890s by R.D. Leonard Jr.

    Someone who has a subscription to the NYT archive can print out the articles.

    3/5/97
    10/30/97
    10/12/02
    3/13/98

    There is even an article on Fake Trade dollars.

  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now I am going to have to get the micro-O type set out from un'er da kippers an' image them.

    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2020 7:15AM

    Here is a contemporary counterfeit silver three-cent piece I picked off eBay earlier this year:


    ...and here is a modern Chinese counterfeit seated dollar with a rim clip that I have as a palceholder in my clipped 7070:


    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cmerlo1 said:

    I have wanted one of these for a long time, the few times I've seen them on eBay (usually unattributed, if you can imagine that) I have been blown out of the bidding.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This one weighs 9.0 grams.....


    This is the correct weight, 12.5 grams, but doesn't pass the ring test, thud instead or ring.....


    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jayPem said:

    @Sonorandesertrat said:
    Micro-O variety. Struck on a sterling silver planchet, but its weight is spot on for a genuine Morgan.

    Any idea why a contemporary counterfeit Morgan$ would be struck from Sterling silver??
    Doesn't quite add up..they would almost certainly be made from a base metal and silver washed...
    🤔

    Because silver was cheap enough that they could make a counterfeit out of good silver and still make a profit.....AND NOT GET CAUGHT!!!!!! Use base metals and you greatly increase the chance of getting caught. These fakes fooled numismatists for decades. The average store clerk would never spot them.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    Because silver was cheap enough that they could make a counterfeit out of good silver and still make a profit.....AND NOT GET CAUGHT!!!!!! Use base metals and you greatly increase the chance of getting caught. These fakes fooled numismatists for decades. The average store clerk would never spot them.

    If I'm not mistaken the silver in the Micro-O's tested out at 92.5% pure - or darned close to it. Which would suggest that the persons responsible for making these pieces were smelting sterling silver from silverware or decourative items. During the 1930's silver got down to about 30 cents an ounce - which would make it profitable. My biggest question has been, who made these - maybe some domestic crime syndicate or perhaps even a foreign government?

    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1652 NE Sixpence, Counterfeit overstruck post-1771 Spanish-American real (so not quite contemporary, but close, and very cool). 2.60g.
    American Numismatic Society, 1959.101.54

    1652 Willow Tree Shilling, Contemporary Counterfeit overstruck NE shilling. 4.65g, 27mm.
    American Numismatic Society, 2017.27.5

    1652 Oak Tree Sixpence, Contemporary Counterfeit. 2.15g. Noe 18.
    American Numismatic Society, 1971.36.5

    1652 Pine Tree Shilling, Contemporary Counterfeit. 2.2g, 22mm. Noe 13.
    American Numismatic Society, 1955.83.1

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JesseKraft said:
    1652 NE Sixpence, Counterfeit overstruck post-1771 Spanish-American real (so not quite contemporary, but close, and very cool). 2.60g.
    American Numismatic Society, 1959.101.54

    1652 Willow Tree Shilling, Contemporary Counterfeit overstruck NE shilling. 4.65g, 27mm.
    American Numismatic Society, 2017.27.5

    1652 Oak Tree Sixpence, Contemporary Counterfeit. 2.15g. Noe 18.
    American Numismatic Society, 1971.36.5

    1652 Pine Tree Shilling, Contemporary Counterfeit. 2.2g, 22mm. Noe 13.
    American Numismatic Society, 1955.83.1

    Wow, those are awesome! Thanks for sharing

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SaorAlba said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    Because silver was cheap enough that they could make a counterfeit out of good silver and still make a profit.....AND NOT GET CAUGHT!!!!!! Use base metals and you greatly increase the chance of getting caught. These fakes fooled numismatists for decades. The average store clerk would never spot them.

    During the 1930's silver got down to about 30 cents an ounce - which would make it profitable. My biggest question has been, who made these - maybe some domestic crime syndicate or perhaps even a foreign government?

    It would have been profitable at any time from 1878-1904, and for some time thereafter.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SaorAlba said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    Because silver was cheap enough that they could make a counterfeit out of good silver and still make a profit.....AND NOT GET CAUGHT!!!!!! Use base metals and you greatly increase the chance of getting caught. These fakes fooled numismatists for decades. The average store clerk would never spot them.

    If I'm not mistaken the silver in the Micro-O's tested out at 92.5% pure - or darned close to it. Which would suggest that the persons responsible for making these pieces were smelting sterling silver from silverware or decourative items. During the 1930's silver got down to about 30 cents an ounce - which would make it profitable. My biggest question has been, who made these - maybe some domestic crime syndicate or perhaps even a foreign government?

    I would love to see the metallurgical analyses of a few of these. Could have been old flatware bound for the melting pot that got diverted. Perhaps a refinery just melted it down and cast it into ingots they could punch blanks out of. Don't know that, just guessing. For all I know, Joe Stalin made them when he decided that the 1923-D and 1930-D dimes were moving his silver fast enough! Anybody got a metallurgical test on one of those???

    We did an analysis on one of the Yoachum Dollar counterfeits that surfaced in the early 1980's, and it was almost exactly 0.925 fine with the balance copper and hardly any trace elements. I am sure it was made from melted sterling whatevers, and not native Ozark silver ore as the legend alleged.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    We did an analysis on one of the Yoachum Dollar counterfeits that surfaced in the early 1980's, and it was almost exactly 0.925 fine with the balance copper and hardly any trace elements. I am sure it was made from melted sterling whatevers, and not native Ozark silver ore as the legend alleged.

    I had the "United States Tokens" catalogue out on Friday night and was reading about the Yoachum forgeries. Interesting read and tokens and "exonumismatic" materiel are just an area not very well researched usually so the risks of fakes is so much more. Curiously I got the book out of it's case to look up a listed as unique Civil War token that I have a second example of that was dug up in a church garden back in 2013.

    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not sure when it was made. Could be a contemporary counterfeit I suppose.


  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,164 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad to see this thread get some good participation!

  • MrLeeMrLee Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭


    Found in my Dad's Jefferson Whitman book in the 1950-D slot. I thought a found something special until I took a closer look.

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tommy44 said:
    This one weighs 9.0 grams.....


    This is the correct weight, 12.5 grams, but doesn't pass the ring test, thud instead or ring.....


    Tommy
    This must be the sister WLH

    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a general comment, a ring test is only reliable if the coin is internally solid.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1861 seated dime- brass metal

  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭✭


  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭✭


  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BST find!

    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I picked up this contemporary counterfeit Seated Dime last week, it was properly attributed and sold for a very strong price (I surprised myself at how much I wanted it). The reverse is slightly rotated as pictured:


    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • fluffy155fluffy155 Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure this is a contemporary counterfeit, and the only one I own:

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2022 7:22PM

    @seanq said:
    I picked up this contemporary counterfeit Seated Dime last week, it was properly attributed and sold for a very strong price (I surprised myself at how much I wanted it). The reverse is slightly rotated as pictured:

    ya. i thought about that one as it is a nice example. i went after one of the III cents and it went a bit high for me but snagged one that wasn't labeled but in rough shape.

    this thread reminds me of an antimony capped bust half a shop owner was kind enough to let me buy long ago. perhaps i need to check cccbhcc too.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2022 7:32PM

    @fluffy155 said:
    I'm not 100% certain but I'm pretty sure this is a contemporary counterfeit, and the only one I own:

    What makes you think it is a counterfeit? If it is, it's the nicest one I've ever seen. I gotta say, I'm not expert, but it looks real to me.

    Tom

  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 7,568 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • fluffy155fluffy155 Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2022 8:54PM

    @TPRC said:
    What makes you think it is a counterfeit? If it is, it's the nicest one I've ever seen. I gotta say, I'm not expert, but it looks real to me.

    Gurney makes the case that the "keyhole" left window on the reverse castles is a characteristic of one of the British dies used in the early 1820s. I can't say for sure if that's true and even if so I don't particularly care, but he knows more about counterfeit 8 reales than I so he's probably right.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2022 7:54AM

    A while back, perhaps 11-12 months ago I sent into IGC to have them slab it and the reverse description says for eduction only. I only got a few imaged because everything is packed up but I’ll post here what I have.

    .

    .the next one I do not believe to be cast. I’m supposed to meet with him in the next few months when I’m hopefully doing better to have a better look at a few. I believe this one to be an Electrotype, not cast

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭






    Hoard the keys.
  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 7,568 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not sure what to make of this ol' thing...



  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun said:
    A while back, perhaps 11-12 months ago I sent into IGC to have them slab it and the reverse description says for seduction only. I only got a few imaged because everything is packed up but I’ll post here what I have.

    .

    .the next one I do not believe to be cast. I’m supposed to meet with him in the next few months when I’m hopefully doing better to have a better look at a few. I believe this one to be an Electrotype, not cast

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    They are both educational and seductive!

    Tom

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file