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Creating a 1805 Dollar from a damaged 1800 Dollar!

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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 12:30PM

    @amwldcoin said:
    Hmmm, someone should shoot you if you overstruck that 1866 1/2!

    @Zoins said:

    @Baley said:
    This makes me, at the same time, a strange kind of happy, and a weird kind of sad.

    I feel a bit the same but I'm okay with it. While the original coin is a honest 220 year old coin, it doesn't appear to fit into the type of coin that is often cherished or recommended these days. It's damaged, low grade, and common. Essentially a damaged widget. I often hear recommendations to avoid both damaged coins and widgets, and there are quite a few on the market.

    The transformation that was done reminds me of the type of restorations that are done in the car and art worlds. Something that is in very poor condition is restored to concours condition. In the classic car world, "concours condition" means perfect but not necessarily original. To me, this coin is like a car barn find which is restored to "concours condition" that could be appreciated in the car and art worlds. The fantasy date identifies it for what it is.

    I will add that Dan prefers to not overstrike nice collector coins. I had a few coins I wanted to overstrike and he would put aside nicer coins recommending they not be overstruck. As an example, I had brought 2 seated liberty halves to be overstruck. One had porous surfaces which we overstruck and one was nicer which he recommended not to overstrike. I could appreciate that coin so I kept it as-is, so now I have 2 non-overstruck seated liberty halves and 1 overstruck seated liberty half.

    For @PerryHall , my first seated liberty half does have what looks like napkin toning and my second now has more traditional toning. Here's a pic of my first, non-overstruck SLH, toned by someone else.

    Don’t worry, that one will never get overstruck. It's my favorite Seated Liberty Half right now. I was talking about a different one.

    The only remote possibility here is a small initial like the 1804 Dexter Dollar. Now that I think of it, it would be nice to add my initial to the 1805 Dollar :)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 8:50AM

    It’s a bit sad that @CoinHoarder ’s problem free 1798 Draped Bust Dollar only has a single like, which is from me.

    For everyone that would have kept my coin as is, is there some reason you won’t like @CoinHoarder ’s 1798 coin but would preserve my 1800 coin?

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @CoinJunkie said:
    Honestly, neither the before or after coins do anything for me personally. I'd rather look at UNC bust dollars on CoinFacts.

    Good perspective. Thanks for posting. I would love to have a unc bust dollar too! Unfortunately their are very pricey and out of my budget now. Before Dan’s 1805, I would just look at photos of top specimens as well.

    For as many people who say they would have kept the dollar as is, it’s interesting that there is only a single “like” for the coin posted by @CoinHoarder , and that single like is from me.

    I wonder if the other people saying they would keep the coin as is actually have low grade bust dollars, or if they are also ones that look at photos but don’t collect these?

    Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with what was done to your coin. It was too far gone to have any aesthetic value in my eyes. @CoinHoarder 's coin still (barely) conveys the overall design of the type, and I would feel less sanguine about its being used as stock for a fantasy piece. However, I reserve "likes" for coins that move me in some way, and that's a tough ask for a G06 bust dollar.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a bit barbaric, kinda like when the Arkansas hippies destroyed the California gold bars.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 12:29PM

    @TomB said:
    I'm late to the party here, but will throw my thoughts onto the fire, as well.

    I don't really care for the overstrike on top of a DBD. Technically and artistically it looks amazing, but the final product renders the original piece and planchet unrecognizable (to me) and although the metal in the planchet has been together for 215-years, the history of what the coin represented has now been separated. Again, this is to me only.

    As for the 1798 DBD also shown in this thread, I hit "Like" before I even posted to the thread with my thoughts. It has a great, warm look indicative of a coin that saw heavy use and was not particularly cared for as anything other than a tool of commerce for quite a while, and then fortuitously fell into the right hands (or more likely disappeared) until society dictated its value was greater than what was stamped onto its surfaces. I love old coins with this look and one of the few inventory pieces I wish I had kept was a similarly appearing and slightly less worn 1798 DBD that I must have sold about a dozen years ago in a PCGS VF20 holder. It looked just like this coin and was spectacular.

    Thanks for sharing your perspective. If you wish you kept the VF20 DBD from your inventory sold over a decade ago, have you replaced it with another low grade specimen for your collection?

    As for restoring it technically and artistically, I think it’s interesting that there’s somewhat of a difference between the classic car and coin hobbies. In the classic car hobby, almost everyone gets excited about restorations and cars can be worth much more than coins.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Okay, I'm convinced!
    Next Open House, Let's have Dan sandblast both of these and remint them into Gem 1796s!

    😉

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 2:22PM

    @Baley said:
    Okay, I'm convinced!
    Next Open House, Let's have Dan sandblast both of these and remint them into Gem 1796s!

    I'd love to see you there! Do you have any damaged coins? I recommend using damaged coins like mine, but they are your coins....

    So far, given everyone that would like to keep the damaged coin as-is, no one seems to collect damaged Draped Bust Dollars.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Do you have any damaged coins?

    Very many.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 2:24PM

    @Baley said:

    @Zoins said:

    Do you have any damaged coins?

    Very many.

    Why not post those?

    They would be more similar to what we're discussing here.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Because just the idea of doing that to one of my own coins makes me very sad.

    The happy part of my first post to the thread was in reference to I'm happy that it makes you happy, and for other people that it makes happy. I'm a libertarian; it's your money time and property.

    Same goes for the long cu- tolerated "current" spam fantasy thread. No one is twisting your guys arms to buy this stuff and you love it. Great.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 3:15PM

    @Baley said:
    Because just the idea of doing that to one of my own coins makes me very sad.

    Generally, I also would not like to overstrike a damaged coin from my collection. If I pick up a coin for my collection, it's because I like it for some reason, even if it is damaged.

    When overstriking coins, I generally get new ones that are not part of my collection already. Then it comes down to whether the coin calls out to me enough to keep it or overstrike it. I was able to enjoy this coin in its former state for several months before it was overstruck.

    The happy part of my first post to the thread was in reference to I'm happy that it makes you happy, and for other people that it makes happy. I'm a libertarian; it's your money time and property.

    Good to know and thanks.

    I do like your Flowing Hair and Draped Bust Dollars and would not have them overstruck myself. I believe Dan would try to talk you out of having them overstruck as well. Thanks for sharing them.

    Same goes for the long cu- tolerated "current" spam fantasy thread. No one is twisting your guys arms to buy this stuff and you love it. Great.

    I'm not sure that thread can be considered spam any more as PCGS slabs and TrueViews some of Dan's pieces now so some of them are legitimate PCGS gradable items.

    The longevity of that thread is interesting. It's the most viewed thread of the popular threads I'm tracking. It's comment count is second only to the Barber Megathread which has many fewer views. More information on popular thread tracking is here:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1017488/will-dell-loy-hansen-ever-catch-daniel-carr#latest

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's nice to know that even early federal coins aren't immune from his wrath of destruction.

  • COINS MAKE CENTSCOINS MAKE CENTS Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've come to realize in life... if it's legal, doesnt hurt anyone else, and makes you happy..... go for it!

    New inventory added daily at Coins Make Cents
    HAPPY COLLECTING


  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 9:22PM

    An interesting thing for me is that it seems like no one here has or collects damaged Draped Bust Dollars. I wonder who, if anyone, collects these coins.

    This is something I've wondered about independent of overstriking. There are a lot of damaged old coins, however, with the advent of TPGs and the Internet, it seems there is a big focus on problem free, photogenic coins. I've been wondering if there are any collectors for coins that don't fit those characteristics.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,132 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    It's nice to know that even early federal coins aren't immune from his wrath of destruction.

    That coin was already destroyed before Dan overstruck it and gave it a new life.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They are very easy to sell at the right price, just like seated dollars are. I would wager to most collectors you probably cut the value of your Draped Bust Dollar in half.

    @Zoins said:
    An interesting thing for me is that it seems like no one here has or collects damaged Draped Bust Dollars. I wonder who, if anyone, collects these coins.

    This is something I've wondered about independent of overstriking. There are a lot of damaged old coins, however, with the advent of TPGs and the Internet, it seems there is a big focus on problem free, photogenic coins. I've been wondering if there are any collectors for coins that don't fit those characteristics.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,132 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zoins---Have you considered getting it slabbed by PCGS? I read somewhere that PCGS is now slabbing Dan Carr coins.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭

    of course people collect damaged early coins! Have you ever met a YN? The 1800 is a coin I would have been over the moon for back in middle/high school. I never even got to hold one in hand until I was older.
    It’s easy to get so far into the hobby that you forget how even a low grade piece made you feel just starting out. But try this: get another low grade bust dollar from 1800 and just show it to people. Not PCGS message board people. I think you’ll be surprised and pleased at their reactions to it.
    Not a problem for you to do what you want with your property. But I think calling that coin “unwanted” seems nuts. What did it cost you to acquire?

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 9:04AM

    @Zoins stated:

    That would be nice but I don’t see that many people cherishing damaged old coins here. Perhaps one day we’ll have Registry Set points for damaged coins.
    An interesting thing for me is that it seems like no one here has or collects damaged Draped Bust Dollars. I wonder who, if anyone, collects these coins.

    There are many collectors of damaged Draped Bust coins, just watch the auctions of holed or otherwise "problem" Draped Bust dollars or other denomination. About 10% of my Draped Bust collection would not make it into a graded holder. The leading PCGS Registry set of 1794-1836 Overton half dollar varieties, Dr. Glenn Peterson, has 17 of 52 Draped Bust halves details grade N1, or 32.7%.

    Less than 1% of EAC members have Registry sets. Some may think that PCGS forum members and Registry sets comprise the coin collecting world, but they are only a very small fraction. Many collectors have one cherished example of a "problem" Draped Bust dollar, but don't expect them to post it here.

    That being said, owners of private property can do what they want within the law, and those who oppose are free to voice their opinion. Governments that destroy museum artifacts "own" them, right?

    Questions for @Zoins. Do you honestly believe there is any reason the OP 1805 dollar products should be stamped COPY to comply with the Hobby Protection Act? If not, why are they excluded?

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @COINS MAKE CENTS said:
    I've come to realize in life... if it's legal, doesnt hurt anyone else, and makes you happy..... go for it!

    That's one hell of a big "if." These are borderline at best.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    It's nice to know that even early federal coins aren't immune from his wrath of destruction.

    That coin was already destroyed before Dan overstruck it and gave it a new life.

    Yes it was damaged, but now it is completely obliterated. It is indistinguishable from the cockamamie stuff you'd see on the HSN for outlandish prices. I'm not denigrating the OP's stuff or his happiness. If he is happy, I am happy for him. It is a pity that a piece of history was destroyed though.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see both sides of the argument. It's what keeps this hobby moving is there is so much variety. One's cup of tea may not be another's. Zoins now has a coin he can enjoy much more than the original with an interesting story and background. I see no problem with that myself.

    Let's all just keep collecting and have fun!

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 8:27AM

    @amwldcoin said:
    They are very easy to sell at the right price, just like seated dollars are. I would wager to most collectors you probably cut the value of your Draped Bust Dollar in half.

    @Zoins said:
    An interesting thing for me is that it seems like no one here has or collects damaged Draped Bust Dollars. I wonder who, if anyone, collects these coins.

    This is something I've wondered about independent of overstriking. There are a lot of damaged old coins, however, with the advent of TPGs and the Internet, it seems there is a big focus on problem free, photogenic coins. I've been wondering if there are any collectors for coins that don't fit those characteristics.

    You should know that “most collectors” don’t matter when valuing a rarity, just commodities.

    For common items like the damaged “before” coin, there is a market price because supply is high. The market price is easy to find via eBay realized prices. These do sell, but it seems not to any collectors here.

    For rare items like the “after” coin, the price isn’t what most people value it at. It’s what one buyer and sellers value it at. I educated my consignment seller when setting the price on my unique customized Porsche. There are around 30 of these and not a single one has been offered for sale. I can guarantee you it would sell for more than I purchased it for.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 8:32AM

    @scubafuel said:
    of course people collect damaged early coins! Have you ever met a YN? The 1800 is a coin I would have been over the moon for back in middle/high school. I never even got to hold one in hand until I was older.
    It’s easy to get so far into the hobby that you forget how even a low grade piece made you feel just starting out. But try this: get another low grade bust dollar from 1800 and just show it to people. Not PCGS message board people. I think you’ll be surprised and pleased at their reactions to it.
    Not a problem for you to do what you want with your property. But I think calling that coin “unwanted” seems nuts. What did it cost you to acquire?

    Damaged bust dollars seem to be coins people love, but in other people’s collections. As for calling it “unwanted”, it appears there’s not a single person here that has or collects damaged bust dollars.

    I’m not saying this to demean damaged old coins, but it does appear no one here collects them. And I do think about which class of collector would be interested in these from a general market trends perspective.

    As for YNs, I’ve seen a number on the forums but even they gravitate towards problem free coins. So far, I haven’t seen any of them post they collect damaged coins.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @scubafuel said:
    of course people collect damaged early coins! Have you ever met a YN? The 1800 is a coin I would have been over the moon for back in middle/high school. I never even got to hold one in hand until I was older.
    It’s easy to get so far into the hobby that you forget how even a low grade piece made you feel just starting out. But try this: get another low grade bust dollar from 1800 and just show it to people. Not PCGS message board people. I think you’ll be surprised and pleased at their reactions to it.
    Not a problem for you to do what you want with your property. But I think calling that coin “unwanted” seems nuts. What did it cost you to acquire?

    Damaged bust dollars seem to be coins people love, but in other people’s collections. As for calling it “unwanted”, it appears there’s not a single person here that has or collects damaged bust dollars.

    I’m not saying this to demean damaged old coins, but it does appear no one here collects them. And I do think about which class of collector would be interested in these from a general market trends perspective.

    As for YNs, I’ve seen a number on the forums but even they gravitate towards problem free coins. So far, I haven’t seen any of them post they collect damaged coins.

    This forum consists of a very small percentage of the coin universe (pun intended). Do you remember Lord Marcovan and his collection of holed coins? One of those "ruined" bust halves turned out to be a rare Overton that subsequently went for thousands of dollars. There is a market for damaged early federal coinage out there somewhere.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 9:04AM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Zoins said:

    @scubafuel said:
    of course people collect damaged early coins! Have you ever met a YN? The 1800 is a coin I would have been over the moon for back in middle/high school. I never even got to hold one in hand until I was older.
    It’s easy to get so far into the hobby that you forget how even a low grade piece made you feel just starting out. But try this: get another low grade bust dollar from 1800 and just show it to people. Not PCGS message board people. I think you’ll be surprised and pleased at their reactions to it.
    Not a problem for you to do what you want with your property. But I think calling that coin “unwanted” seems nuts. What did it cost you to acquire?

    Damaged bust dollars seem to be coins people love, but in other people’s collections. As for calling it “unwanted”, it appears there’s not a single person here that has or collects damaged bust dollars.

    I’m not saying this to demean damaged old coins, but it does appear no one here collects them. And I do think about which class of collector would be interested in these from a general market trends perspective.

    As for YNs, I’ve seen a number on the forums but even they gravitate towards problem free coins. So far, I haven’t seen any of them post they collect damaged coins.

    This forum consists of a very small percentage of the coin universe (pun intended). Do you remember Lord Marcovan and his collection of holed coins? One of those "ruined" bust halves turned out to be a rare Overton that subsequently went for thousands of dollars. There is a market for damaged early federal coinage out there somewhere.

    Yes, it seems to be “somewhere” that forum members are not aware of. I actually wish there was more interest in damaged old coins as I think there are interesting, but it seems supply is way higher than demand and that the people are not aware of those collectors. Could be two different universes of collecting?

    The cherry-picking example is different for me because cherry pickers should be active in the market for rare varieties.

    All I’m saying is instead of theorizing there are people that value these, let’s find some to prove the point. And even if there are some, there are way more damaged bust dollars than collectors given the supply on the market.

    I’m kind of surprised by all the people posting their desire to preserve these coins when not a single one owns or collects these. For everyone that would like to preserve damaged bust dollars, I’d love to hear why they don’t have one in their collection. Why don’t you have damaged, common date bust dollars in your collection?

    My interest goes beyond over striking to what is happening to demand in this part of the market.

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 9:11AM

    @Zoins said

    All I’m saying is instead of theorizing there are people that value these, let’s find some to prove the point. And even if there are some, there are way more damaged bust dollars than collectors given the supply on the market.

    Read my earlier post. For every "problem" Draped Bust coin, there is a collector, excluding dealer stock. Draped Bust dollars and other Draped Bust denominations are not at all common.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 9:23AM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    It's nice to know that even early federal coins aren't immune from his wrath of destruction.

    That coin was already destroyed before Dan overstruck it and gave it a new life.

    Yes it was damaged, but now it is completely obliterated. It is indistinguishable from the cockamamie stuff you'd see on the HSN for outlandish prices. I'm not denigrating the OP's stuff or his happiness. If he is happy, I am happy for him. It is a pity that a piece of history was destroyed though.

    For me, it would be different if it was a rare date or a condition rarity, or even just problem free.

    Dan’s pieces don’t really show up on HSN because, for the most part, they have super low mintages and not enough to be worth selling in those venues. Dan Carr collectors wouldn’t think they are indistinguishable. If you make that kind of statement, others can say similar things about damaged old coins.

    These damaged, old coins are interesting because it seems people like them but not enough to collect them.

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just did a quick look at the population reports for Draped Bust Dollars.
    PCGS has graded about 15,500
    NGC has graded about 9,000

    So roughly 25,000 pieces, less crackouts of course.

    And it's anyone's guess as to how many have been graded genuine/details/problem, but for this series I'd wager it's a pretty substantial number. And that excludes the pieces that haven't been graded both problem free and problem, or are graded by ANACS or lesser TPGs.

    WAG of survivors in every state from problem free through 68, graded and ungraded? Maybe 50,000?

    Number dcarr will destroy? 10? 30? Maybe 50?

    I know it's a lot of supposition. But if the figures above are anywhere close to accurate, Dcarr's efforts may impact .001 of the population. I'd wager that's fewer than we lose annually through "natural" attrition (fires, meltings, accidental tossage™ , other "repurposing", etc.).

    .001.

    *Check my math, it's likely off. *

    FWIW: One of the greatest things an artist can hope to do is to impact his audience. To make them experience emotions. To make them discuss the merits--passionately if they're very lucky. I'd say he's done this and much more.

    I've made no bones about how I feel about Mr. Carr's original work. But his overstrikes are inspired and are one of the most exciting things to happen in our hobby in the last quarter century. He's turned this hater into a major supporter. And I'm as stubborn a critic as you're likely to find.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss said:

    FWIW: One of the greatest things an artist can hope to do is to impact his audience. To make them experience emotions. To make them discuss the merits--passionately if they're very lucky. I'd say he's done this and much more.

    I've made no bones about how I feel about Mr. Carr's original work. But his overstrikes are inspired and are one of the most exciting things to happen in our hobby in the last quarter century. He's turned this hater into a major supporter. And I'm as stubborn a critic as you're likely to find.

    Real artists don't rip off other people's work. How much artistry does it take to scan an existing coin, alter the last digit of the date, and create digitally engraved dies? There is no real creativity there. His tired Warhol analogy is also not apt. There is no changing of angle or perception. There is no interpretation but merely changing one digit in the date with the rest being 100% a forgery of someone else's work. When others do something similar he has the chutzpah to criticize the others as rip offs. The irony is astonishing.

    And assuming that we all disagree on that point, if he is such a great artist then why doesn't sign his work? Most renown artists do.

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Weiss said:

    FWIW: One of the greatest things an artist can hope to do is to impact his audience. To make them experience emotions. To make them discuss the merits--passionately if they're very lucky. I'd say he's done this and much more.

    I've made no bones about how I feel about Mr. Carr's original work. But his overstrikes are inspired and are one of the most exciting things to happen in our hobby in the last quarter century. He's turned this hater into a major supporter. And I'm as stubborn a critic as you're likely to find.

    Real artists don't rip off other people's work. How much artistry does it take to scan an existing coin, alter the last digit of the date, and create digitally engraved dies? There is no real creativity there. His tired Warhol analogy is also not apt. There is no changing of angle or perception. There is no interpretation but merely changing one digit in the date with the rest being 100% a forgery of someone else's work. When others do something similar he has the chutzpah to criticize the others as rip offs. The irony is astonishing.

    And assuming that we all disagree on that point, if he is such a great artist then why doesn't sign his work? Most renown artists do.

    I think you're missing the point, friend. You have to look beyond the object itself. You see frenetic activity in Jackson Pollack's work, not just drips of paint on a canvass. The process can be a thousand times more important than the object.
    In his case, Dcarr threaded the laws of counterfeiting, forgery, "COPY" by using actual host coins to make his fantasy pieces. I can't overstate how incredibly narrow his journey was. An inch to the left or right and he'd be in jail. But his math was correct and he actually did it.

    And he did this in a way that seems so obvious to us now after the fact, but was a completely new way to see overstrikes and coinage. He uses actual series coins, actual series designs, often important "almost" dates for the coins in question, and then he even uses a US Mint decommissioned press. And yet still creates something entirely new. It's that thought and process that makes his overstrikes so controversial and interesting, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 1:02PM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Weiss said:

    FWIW: One of the greatest things an artist can hope to do is to impact his audience. To make them experience emotions. To make them discuss the merits--passionately if they're very lucky. I'd say he's done this and much more.

    I've made no bones about how I feel about Mr. Carr's original work. But his overstrikes are inspired and are one of the most exciting things to happen in our hobby in the last quarter century. He's turned this hater into a major supporter. And I'm as stubborn a critic as you're likely to find.

    Real artists don't rip off other people's work. How much artistry does it take to scan an existing coin, alter the last digit of the date, and create digitally engraved dies? There is no real creativity there. His tired Warhol analogy is also not apt. There is no changing of angle or perception. There is no interpretation but merely changing one digit in the date with the rest being 100% a forgery of someone else's work. When others do something similar he has the chutzpah to criticize the others as rip offs. The irony is astonishing.

    Actually, I do think that’s a good analogy. When I read your first line, I immediately thought you were going to say Andy Warhol was a fake artist ripping off other people’s work. I’m a bit surprised you would make a distinction .

    It actually takes a lot of skill to do what Dan does. It’s amazing to see everything that goes into creating these. Have you seen the entire process? I couldn’t do it. If you can make a fantasy date coin, I’ll buy one!

    And assuming that we all disagree on that point, if he is such a great artist then why doesn't sign his work? Most renown artists do.

    I’d consider your angle more if you said Warhol was a fake artist too.

    Dan does put his initials on a lot of pieces including the 2009 proofed ASE. Regardless of whether a pieces are signed or not, his collectors are buying his pieces specifically because they are created by him.

    I think this is going off topic so I’ll refrain from further posts along this angle. Please post in a more relevant thread for this line of discussion.

  • SamByrdSamByrd Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭✭

    While the coin does not appeal to me. The coin is now art and as such is a remarkable piece. It is a tribute to the coin in that it used the host silver of the period. I would guess that far more collectors appreciate the token then not. Value is multiplied by its use as an art piece , the history is not altogether lost just changed.

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To me, this has little to do with "You own it, so you can do anything you want with it". I doubt anyone is going to argue any differently, from a strictly legal point of view.

    But I think as collectors/lovers of coins, stewardship of the remaining pieces of history is important. "Save and preserve the coins for the next generation." EVERYONE here will caution newcomers that they should not clean their coins. Artificial toning is not tolerated. Engraving and "improving" a coin is highly frowned upon. We encourage people to read the books, study the processes, get to know the coinage.

    If YOU don't like a piece, don't buy it. Leave it for the next guy.

    If, as a group, we instead allow ourselves to believe that "we can do anything we want" with every piece of history that crosses our path, that history is going to disappear. The next generation is going to have scrubbed, re-engraved, artificially colored...crap.

    You like newly minted trinkets? Fine...use a bullion piece as a starting point. Melt down some unused jewelry. Something that doesn't PERMANENTLY destroy a piece of history.

    I know....sometimes that history is questionable. Common date Washington Quarters, low grade Morgans, etc. But an 1800's dated Bust Dollar? It's a crying shame to turn that into a shiny trinket. (And I don't care if there is a small group of people who follow the current fad).

    I'd hope that MOST collectors would turn their backs on the practice.

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 10:07AM

    @Crypto said:
    Just for the record I in no way wanted to knock Zions. If that is his thing more power to him. All day everyday

    Thanks. I have a lot in my collection. Many are rare items as-is. This is just one part of what I enjoy. Check out this one:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1029958/an-amazing-civil-war-relic-a-sutler-counterstamping-tool#latest

    My point/opinion is more that the coin went form an artifact of early America to a highend art round. And I prefer the previous to the latter but that doesn’t really matter as it isn’t mine.

    I agree with this to an extent. I value the high end art round and since only a few were struck, it would be hard to replace.

    I like the coin in the original state as well, but I consider that a widget that I can buy at any time, and would probably buy a problem free one when I did. For better or worse, the market (and my personal preferences) seems to have moved to eye-appealing, non-damaged widgets or rare, non-widgets.

    I don’t believe Dan making US coinage dies is legal regardless of any Easter eggs and his overstrikes are a very slippery slope that the next person doing it might not have the integrity Carr does. Overall net negative for the hobby IMHO

    What are your reasons for thinking it’s a net negative? The mintages are super low so it seems it wouldn’t impact the overall market and the collectors seem to really like them.

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The level of angst and hand-wringing this topic engenders in many people here truly amazes me. If the OP's coin had spent a few more years in circulation and been worn flat beyond recognition, would it still be viewed as a sacred "piece of history"? These pieces of stamped metal were originally created to facilitate commerce, not as inviolable objects of high art. There are still plenty of Bust dollars for sale to the collector who didn't get to own the OP's coin. Get over it.

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    I educated my consignment seller when setting the price on my unique customized Porsche.

    What? You modified your Porsche? Say it isn't so! I hope it wasn't a 911. They're iconic and treasured and best kept original! (jk)
    Lance.

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:
    The level of angst and hand-wringing this topic engenders in many people here truly amazes me. If the OP's coin had spent a few more years in circulation and been worn flat beyond recognition, would it still be viewed as a sacred "piece of history"? These pieces of stamped metal were originally created to facilitate commerce, not as inviolable objects of high art. There are still plenty of Bust dollars for sale to the collector who didn't get to own the OP's coin. Get over it.

    I'm on the other side. I was truly amazed that so many actually APPROVED of this.

    So, which of us is right, and which is wrong?

    I was ignoring the thread, for the most part. But the continued attempts to justify it, and attempts to belittle one valid side of the argument, ("get over it"), made me at least want to make it clear that we hadn't universally decided that this is just peachy fine.

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭

    I do not like it. To me it destroys history. But, I recognize the owners right to do whatever he wants with his property.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,660 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss said:

    Dcarr threaded the laws of counterfeiting, forgery, "COPY" by using actual host coins to make his fantasy pieces. I can't overstate how incredibly narrow his journey was. An inch to the left or right and he'd be in jail. But his math was correct and he actually did it.

    This might be the crux of what bothers many members here..

    He found and exploited technical Loopholes in the HPA, in the Federal counterfeiting laws, and in the CU forum spam rules, and apparently, not only is all that just fine, it's great because he and the complicit buyers and flippers are happily making money at it.

    Those who find all of this kind of sad and vaguely sickening mostly keep quiet about it.. mostly.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,142 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Weiss said:

    FWIW: One of the greatest things an artist can hope to do is to impact his audience. To make them experience emotions. To make them discuss the merits--passionately if they're very lucky. I'd say he's done this and much more.

    I've made no bones about how I feel about Mr. Carr's original work. But his overstrikes are inspired and are one of the most exciting things to happen in our hobby in the last quarter century. He's turned this hater into a major supporter. And I'm as stubborn a critic as you're likely to find.

    Real artists don't rip off other people's work. How much artistry does it take to scan an existing coin, alter the last digit of the date, and create digitally engraved dies? There is no real creativity there. His tired Warhol analogy is also not apt. There is no changing of angle or perception. There is no interpretation but merely changing one digit in the date with the rest being 100% a forgery of someone else's work. When others do something similar he has the chutzpah to criticize the others as rip offs. The irony is astonishing.

    And assuming that we all disagree on that point, if he is such a great artist then why doesn't sign his work? Most renown artists do.

    I think you're missing the point, friend. You have to look beyond the object itself. You see frenetic activity in Jackson Pollack's work, not just drips of paint on a canvass. The process can be a thousand times more important than the object.
    In his case, Dcarr threaded the laws of counterfeiting, forgery, "COPY" by using actual host coins to make his fantasy pieces. I can't overstate how incredibly narrow his journey was. An inch to the left or right and he'd be in jail. But his math was correct and he actually did it.

    And he did this in a way that seems so obvious to us now after the fact, but was a completely new way to see overstrikes and coinage. He uses actual series coins, actual series designs, often important "almost" dates for the coins in question, and then he even uses a US Mint decommissioned press. And yet still creates something entirely new. It's that thought and process that makes his overstrikes so controversial and interesting, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

    I have always maintained that his legal tender design overstrikes with fantasy dates were subject to the HPA requirement that they be stamped with the word "COPY." He defense was that he was simply altering an existing coin by changing a small portion of the design, as does the engraver of a Hobo Nickel. I have always politely disagreed with that defense, even if I do see the point of his argument. Buffalo nickels are still Buffalo nickels even if the Native American's head has been changed to something else.

    However, I do object to him striking these pieces on Morgan and Peace dollars and etc. because he is NOT "(using) actual series coins and actual series designs." He is changing other series coins and other series designs into Draped Bust dollars. As I said above the markings on the pieces that identify this fact are in raised letters that can be easily tooled away. This is a step down a slippery slope away from his original good intentions. Stamp altered design coins with the word "COPY" following the height, width and depth requirements of the HPA, or don't make them.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 12:28PM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @Weiss said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Weiss said:

    FWIW: One of the greatest things an artist can hope to do is to impact his audience. To make them experience emotions. To make them discuss the merits--passionately if they're very lucky. I'd say he's done this and much more.

    I've made no bones about how I feel about Mr. Carr's original work. But his overstrikes are inspired and are one of the most exciting things to happen in our hobby in the last quarter century. He's turned this hater into a major supporter. And I'm as stubborn a critic as you're likely to find.

    Real artists don't rip off other people's work. How much artistry does it take to scan an existing coin, alter the last digit of the date, and create digitally engraved dies? There is no real creativity there. His tired Warhol analogy is also not apt. There is no changing of angle or perception. There is no interpretation but merely changing one digit in the date with the rest being 100% a forgery of someone else's work. When others do something similar he has the chutzpah to criticize the others as rip offs. The irony is astonishing.

    And assuming that we all disagree on that point, if he is such a great artist then why doesn't sign his work? Most renown artists do.

    I think you're missing the point, friend. You have to look beyond the object itself. You see frenetic activity in Jackson Pollack's work, not just drips of paint on a canvass. The process can be a thousand times more important than the object.
    In his case, Dcarr threaded the laws of counterfeiting, forgery, "COPY" by using actual host coins to make his fantasy pieces. I can't overstate how incredibly narrow his journey was. An inch to the left or right and he'd be in jail. But his math was correct and he actually did it.

    And he did this in a way that seems so obvious to us now after the fact, but was a completely new way to see overstrikes and coinage. He uses actual series coins, actual series designs, often important "almost" dates for the coins in question, and then he even uses a US Mint decommissioned press. And yet still creates something entirely new. It's that thought and process that makes his overstrikes so controversial and interesting, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

    I have always maintained that his legal tender design overstrikes with fantasy dates were subject to the HPA requirement that they be stamped with the word "COPY." He defense was that he was simply altering an existing coin by changing a small portion of the design, as does the engraver of a Hobo Nickel. I have always politely disagreed with that defense, even if I do see the point of his argument. Buffalo nickels are still Buffalo nickels even if the Native American's head has been changed to something else.

    However, I do object to him striking these pieces on Morgan and Peace dollars and etc. because he is NOT "(using) actual series coins and actual series designs." He is changing other series coins and other series designs into Draped Bust dollars. As I said above the markings on the pieces that identify this fact are in raised letters that can be easily tooled away. This is a step down a slippery slope away from his original good intentions. Stamp altered design coins with the word "COPY" following the height, width and depth requirements of the HPA, or don't make them.

    I think there’s a misconception here because he’s actually not striking these on Peace and Morgan dollars. There’s a different type / die with additional text for those. With additional text, it could be a silver round struck on new silver, similar to the silver rounds Intaglio Mint is doing now.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    @Weiss said:

    Dcarr threaded the laws of counterfeiting, forgery, "COPY" by using actual host coins to make his fantasy pieces. I can't overstate how incredibly narrow his journey was. An inch to the left or right and he'd be in jail. But his math was correct and he actually did it.

    This might be the crux of what bothers many members here..

    He found and exploited technical Loopholes in the HPA, in the Federal counterfeiting laws, and in the CU forum spam rules, and apparently, not only is all that just fine, it's great because he and the complicit buyers and flippers are happily making money at it.

    For what it’s worth, in over a decade of collecting Dan’s work, I’ve never sold a single piece or made a dime from my collection.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,122 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Baley said:
    This makes me, at the same time, a strange kind of happy, and a weird kind of sad.

    Im just plain sad. 220 years of history and honest commercial usage turned into a $15 trinket.

    This sounds like you don’t collect Dan’s work. If you did, you would know his over struck coins never sell for $15 and can sell for hundreds of dollars and in this case perhaps over a thousand.

    Correct. I have no intemtion or desire to collect such trinkets and unfortunately your coin in its original condition was worth far more to me than its current alteration.

    I do believe we have discovered your true intent when you state that you believe this "coin" could now be worth "over a thousand".

    Sad.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 12:54PM

    @cohodk said:

    @Zoins said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Baley said:
    This makes me, at the same time, a strange kind of happy, and a weird kind of sad.

    Im just plain sad. 220 years of history and honest commercial usage turned into a $15 trinket.

    This sounds like you don’t collect Dan’s work. If you did, you would know his over struck coins never sell for $15 and can sell for hundreds of dollars and in this case perhaps over a thousand.

    Correct. I have no intemtion or desire to collect such trinkets and unfortunately your coin in its original condition was worth far more to me than its current alteration.

    It may have been worth more to you but do you own a single damaged bust dollar? If not, no matter how much it’s worth to you, it’s less than what you’re actually willing to spend your money on.

    I do believe we have discovered your true intent when you state that you believe this "coin" could now be worth "over a thousand".

    Sad.

    You’re wrong. If you read my post above, you’d see I’ve never sold a single Dan Carr piece of mine in over a decade. So you are flat out wrong if you think I’m doing this for profit. The only reason money was brought up was people were saying it was worth a lot in it’s original state to them, without ever putting their money down to buy one.

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    @Weiss said:

    Dcarr threaded the laws of counterfeiting, forgery, "COPY" by using actual host coins to make his fantasy pieces. I can't overstate how incredibly narrow his journey was. An inch to the left or right and he'd be in jail. But his math was correct and he actually did it.

    This might be the crux of what bothers many members here..

    He found and exploited technical Loopholes in the HPA, in the Federal counterfeiting laws, and in the CU forum spam rules, and apparently, not only is all that just fine, it's great because he and the complicit buyers and flippers are happily making money at it.

    Those who find all of this kind of sad and vaguely sickening mostly keep quiet about it.. mostly.

    I say threaded, you say exploited. While the other high jumpers watched in angered amazement, Dick Fosbury jumped higher and won the gold medal in '68. Threaded vs. exploited. Two sides of the same...coin.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    However, I do object to him striking these pieces on Morgan and Peace dollars and etc. because he is NOT "(using) actual series coins and actual series designs." He is changing other series coins and other series designs into Draped Bust dollars. As I said above the markings on the pieces that identify this fact are in raised letters that can be easily tooled away. This is a step down a slippery slope away from his original good intentions. Stamp altered design coins with the word "COPY" following the height, width and depth requirements of the HPA, or don't make them.

    >

    The "1805" Draped Bust over-strikes on Morgan/Peace/Commemorative silver dollars have three things that differentiate them from the "1805" Draped Bust over-strikes that were done on actual Draped Bust Dollars.

    Those over-struck on actual Draped Bust silver dollars have:
    The original lettered edge showing, although somewhat flattened.

    Those over-struck on Morgan/Peace/Commemorative silver dollars have:
    The original edge reeding of the host coin showing, and no lettered edge;
    A significantly smaller modified olive branch;
    Small text along the lower reverse rim "STRUCK ON A USA SILVER DOLLAR".

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