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An amazing Civil War relic - a sutler counterstamping tool
Zoins
Posts: 33,917 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is one of my favorite pickups for 2019.
If you ever wanted to know how sutlers lined up letters for their counterstamps, here's how. This really lets me imagine someone buying a dog tag and asking to have their information on it back in the day.
It's a fascinating device with moving parts. The collar comes off and allows you to place a token in it, then a stencil. The collar goes back on to secure the token and stencil while you strike letters into the openings.
Anyone else ever see anything like this?
Here are two tokens it was discovered with. More on these is available in this thread.
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Comments
I agree....very cool......
I've never seen that !
Thanks for posting. That is really cool. Educational post.
Very interesting piece! I'm trying to wrap my head around it, as I know you are, too. Love stuff like this, because it really gets the imagination rolling and so few items like this survive.
So... this could be some kind of portable die stamping machine in the Sutler's wagon. But...Im wondering how it could possible be struck with enough force to produce a medal. Steam? Is this a portion of the die used in a machine like John Bolen would bring to the Soldier's Fairs of the era?
Is it simply a die in collar with the stenciled brass for ANOTHER die?
A real head scratcher...
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Here is an example of what a Civil War Identification Disc or "dog tag" would have looked like using this set up. (Note the the reverse and the lined brass stencils that are a part of your contraption.)
I dont know why a Sutler would need or want to stamp the medal in the field with anything but the letter and number punches that made up the soldier's information.
It would seem better practice to have these produced with Washington's obverse die and the lines already in place on the reverse back in a dieshop.
So maybe this is a die and collar with the reverse lines.
Very impressive and historic find!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Now, that is really something!
Incredible. Where would you even find something like that? What would it be called in an Ebay search?
I have never seen anything like that. And, would have never guessed it was
done like this. Very cool stuff you have been getting lately!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Thanks for sharing, that is really cool!
Fascinating!
Edited to add: And Way Kewl!!!
Seriously cool piece of history! Love seeing the I.D. tag as well.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
So there's what? 2 of those still around today? That is really a cool find.
That is an incredible find.... Where would you even encounter an item such as this?? What a treasure for coin and medal guys...Thanks for showing us....and the subsequent information is great. Cheers, RickO
Is the Washington die incuse? The Washington i.d. tags are struck uniface with a blank reverse for the sutler's use. Take a close look at the first image -- I believe that the Washington die is incuse and is just a seating die so the reverse can be struck without movement of the Washington obverse. The second image appears to show the Washington die as struck up but I believe that is just a photographic mirage -- incuse items often image as being raised.
The top collar would be removed, the uniface blank seated firmly into the incuse die, the stencil carefully positioned on the blank reverse die, the collar replaced and firmly secured, then the individual letter punches would be used to strike in the name, unit, dates, etc. This prevents the obverse Washington die from being damaged while the wording is being struck. If you are familiar with the two part Pegasus medal "Inspiration" by Frank Eliscu from 1974, that will be a similar but good visual of a seated die.
I have seen two similar contraptions over the years. The first was seen in the 1980's, a very rusty device missing the top collar tucked away in a small museum somewhere in IN-OH-PA-NY. It was a Washington die as well along with one stencil plate but I have no idea which variety or size. Northwest Airlines used to offer very cheap weekend only flights which I would take frequently to the antique hotbeds back when you could still find worthwhile coins, exonumia & Americana at nearly every stop & flea market. It was on one of these trips (which now run together -- I seem only to remember the location of the good hits and very bad misses). If the location pops into my mind, I will add it to this thread.
The second set was not a Civil War set but was a complete portable die sinkers kit somewhat in the same vein including a (complete?) set of punches (letters, stars, ornaments, etc.). It included a somewhat similar locking device but no seating die. The stencils were plain and of various sizes. I saw the kit at a St. Louis area show & the kit was supposedly found in San Antonio; the seller was convinced that it came from die sinker Heidemann of that city but there was nothing to indicate it as such and I have grave doubts about that attribution. It was priced at five figures over thirty years ago so I quietly passed.
Have never seen that before. Very cool!
ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS
Very cool piece of history!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
@topstuf
Very nice commentary. You would have to ask @zoins as this is his and I've not seen it in hand. But I do not think this is an incuse design. I think that it is a normal die prepared in mirror image to strike dog tags.
I also believe this to be done far away from the field of battle, not some portable machine. That just doesnt make sense to me.
Love this piece! Like something you should see in the Smithsonian.
@Zoins never disappoints us!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
neat item
BHNC #203
If this is the same as the machine that I previously saw then yes, that is probably a(n) (old) working die set into the piece, yes, it is incuse (as a working die would have to be to originally strike the raised GW bust) but no, it is not being used to strike anything but simply to hold an already struck uniface piece with a blank reverse in position to counterstamp the information on the reverse.
This is a portable set that could easily be used by a sutler in the field. It may also have been used by the die sinker or other military supply merchants back at stores in the city. As Maier and Stahl state in their catalog of Union Civil War I.D. Discs "It appears these discs were marketed directly to the men by their regimental sutler or by a merchant set up in or just outside of their training camps." Francis Lord in his large work on Civil War relics surmises that "It is also conceivable that some sort of frame, like a stencil, could have been provided to fit above the disc to guide the sutler when he punched. Such guides were provided with some of the WWI punch kits." None of the authors mentioned have seen the type of kit shown in the OP but Maier & Stahl write "it seems highly logical that such (sutler) sets or kits existed". By Fall of 1861 188 out of 200 Union regiments had sutlers assigned to the units and distinctive styles and letter punches can be followed through and across units throughout the war.
I.D. discs came from two directions: 1) the soldier bought it himself from the sutler or merchant as mentioned above, or 2) family members purchased the discs and sent them on to the soldier in the field. With all the errors and misaligned letters seen on many types of the tags it is not a stretch to suggest that most of these were done in the field; a family sending a disc to a loved one would be more discerning with the work than a soldier dealing with the often notorious sutler. Maier and Stahl report the first mention of I.D. discs they found came from a letter a soldier wrote in February of 1862 telling of purchasing two I.D. discs from the regiment sutler.
If Francis Lord had never seen a Civil War I.D. kit then the set is really something special (and I wish I would have looked closer at the other one that I saw). A hell of a piece.
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"it is not being used to strike anything but simply to hold an already struck uniface piece with a blank reverse in position to counterstamp the information on the reverse"
Ahhh... so the mirror image (incuse) on the "die" is actually the BASE, sitting there so that the planchet placed on top of it (face down) doesnt move during the striking of the soldier info on the reverse.
This actually makes alot of sense. Then the lined brass could be placed over the collar, screwed down, and anyone could hammer in the soldier info.
Man, this thing keeps getting cooler...
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Thanks everyone! It was an incredible opportunity and now an incredible privilege to be able to find and be the caretaker for this now. I have never seen anything like this before but was instantly captivated by it. I spent a lot of time theorizing how it worked and what it was used for. From looking at it in hand, I came to conclusions primarily along the lines of what @tokenpro wrote, being a portable device for sutlers to hold a token in place while being counterstamped. I really like the thoughts from @DCW as well as the token posted. I'll look at it in more detail and se if I can learn anything more.
It's amazing that Francis Lord, Larry B. Maier and Joseph W. Stahl, would all theorize that this existed and now this one is known. It's great to add to our knowledge of the times. Of course, there are many more to find since this has the design of only one of the dog tags at the time. Our early history remains as captivating today as ever
Please note that Lord's five volume Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia dates from the 1990's. Maier & Stahl's work is from 2008 -- they came at the subject of Civil War I.D. discs more from a Civil War relic buffs angle than from a numismatic angle (although they got most of the numismatic basics correct from my recollection). Over time, things change.
One bit that has always interested me -- soldiers and officers from the same regiment often had different style and portrait I.D. tags. Did the sutler change his stock over time or offer several different choices of types? Did the men buy from the sutler of a different regiment? Did they buy from itinerant salesmen in towns or along their route? (There are several letters mentioning this availability as they moved and camped). Which ones came from home? Maier & Stahl include a survey of I.D. discs by state and style of 615 I.D. discs that they had seen, been reported to them, taken from auction catalogs, etc. which further shows the variety of styles scattered about each regiment. So much is yet to be learned...
An interesting question. I am not familiar with the genre. Could you please post examples of different styles from the same Regiment?
I'm sure soldiers ordered some from newspaper advertisements and had them sent from home. It is also plausible that a soldier had a few made up by his local die sinker and brought them back on leave.
They were most certainly not exclusive to the sutler, but rather a convenience offered by such a vendor on site. I do not think dog tags were standardized and issued by the US Governmnet until the first world war, so varieties would logically exist within units as they mustered in and out.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
This is what I find fascinating about collecting. There's a lot of details of what happened in the past that seems lost to us now, like a lot of what is being posted above as well. It's amazing how little we know about things as little as 150 years ago!
Great dog tags @DCW and @topstuf
The Ezra Chamberin dog tag is very interesting as it was found on the Hunley on April 27, 2001, as posted here:
Zowee! What a great gadget and mindbending history lesson. Thank you very much. Peace Roy
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Definitely a cool find!! Much of life's details are always lost to time but I find this especially true of Civil War history...I think that many found the memories to be so horrific (3% of US population lost in 4 years) and were quick to try to forget and to get on with everyday life...
The veterans themselves were an extremely proud group. While the events they experienced were truly horrific, most celebrated their service along with a grateful public. Just go to Gettysburg Battlefield. There are no less than 1,300 monuments put there by the veterans themselves! They regularly got together for encampments and reunions until there were none left.
Dog tags are the most person item among the soldier's possessions. This is because they were always hanging on our necks, and removed only when killed in action or separated from service. I have mine from Iraq, my father's from Vietnam, and my grandfather's from WWII, and they are in a special place.
I think most recognized the importance of the "War of 1861-1865" early on, but time has a way of forgetting the small points.
This machine is a good example. There must have been hundreds produced and discarded when their purpose was over. That and the relative short period of use contributed to catastrophic attrition.
Incredible to see one for the first time here at the PCGS forums!
A most memorable thread!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I'm really fascinated by all the ways these dog tags could have been distributed, whether it was from sutler, local die sinker, or one from home. It would be interesting to see if there's any pattern to where the soldiers were from and when/where they served on a per type basis.
Does anyone maintain a census of dog tags by type? This seems like an interesting endeavor!
This one for Lieutenant George F. Lawton was just sold a few months ago. Did anyone here pick this up?
First Lieutenant George F. Lawton is listed in the book: History of the Twelfth Regiment, Rhode Island Volunteers, in the Civil War, 1862-1863
I'm still trying to find out more of George F. Lawton of the Civil War era, but it seems like he may be named after Captain George Laawton, one of signers of the Portsmouth Compact. The following si from the REWHC (Raytheon Employees Wildlife Habitat Committee) website:
Here's the dog tag:
I’ve wondered if @Dwight_M was able to pick this up? Here's some previous info on a similar piece which he got:
Very cool device. Thanks for sharing it. It's ironic that the obverse would show George Washington. Both sides of the Civil War claimed GW even though he was a slave owner, a Southerner, and a Virginian which was part of the Confederacy. Most of the soldiers that bought this medal/dog tag were officers who could afford it. Before going into battle, the average foot soldier would write their name and home town on a piece of paper and put it in their pocket so they would know where to ship his body if he died in battle.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
While he didn't emancipate his slaves while he was living, he did emancipate them in his will and his wife did so early before her death. In that respect, he was ahead of others who still owned slaves during the Civil War.
Also, even though he was a Southerner and Virginian, it may have been beneficial for the North to claim him as inspiration to keep the Union whole.
The loss of life was so great, it's hard to imagine that now in the US, but other countries still face similar situations. George F. Lawton was a First Lieutenant and a volunteer. It would be great to know more about his background and what happened to him.
Great thread! Assuming you own one of the dog tags, what are your thoughts and feelings on owning so personal and intimate an item? I think I’d be compelled to try to reconnect it with its heirs.
I don't own any named dog tags, but I do have the following gold medal awarded to Union General John Gibbon, one of the three commissioners for the Confederate surrender at the end of the Civil War. General Gibbon's father was the assayer at the Charlotte Mint! And yes, they were on different sides during the war.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1011339/a-civil-war-generals-gold-medal-history-in-your-hands
It can be a bit difficult to connect these items to current relatives unless family members are really into genealogy. I've found the Pynchon family to have published a lot, but many families do not. It also seems like this kind of family history publishing was more prevalent during the early years of the Internet in the 1990s than more recently. Here's my thread on the Pynchon family which had me diving into family legacies.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1021588/bolens-pynchon-house-die-pair
To think how many of those dog tags belonged to military members that died, it is very sobering….