Creating a 1805 Dollar from a damaged 1800 Dollar!
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
Dan ( @dcarr ) recently overstruck my damaged 1800 Draped Bust Dollar with a 1805 fantasy date that doesn't exist. Since I had visited the Moonlight Mint this past weekend for the Knights of the Coin Table Minting Days, Dan was kind enough to hold the coin so I got to be present when it was struck. Being there for this was quite the treat!
For the 1805 dollar, you had to submit your own 1798 to 1803 Draped Bust Dollar. The dollars could be holed or unholed. If the coin was holed, Dan would plug the hole unless requested otherwise. I had decided to submit a damaged but unholed dollar since I believed the overstriking could mask many problems but not a plugged (or unplugged) hole. Dan indicated that most of the coins were holed and plugged, though one submitted chose to have his holed coin overstruck without plugging the hole. When a hole was plugged, some evidence of the hole could still be seen on the coin after overstriking.
Below are before, during and after photos of my coin. In the before photos, you can see that the coin was dull and scratched. The marks in the field before Lady Liberty's mouth and in the field around the date are especially evident. To prepare the coin for overstriking, Dan bead blasted the coin with tiny glass beads and then wire brushed the coin. Afterwards, the coin had a much more lustrous appearance with the 1800 date, other devices and the deep scratches in front of Lady Liberty's mouth still evident. Finally the coin was overstruck with the fantasy date to create the 1805 fantasy date coin. The original 1800 date can still be seen under the fantasy 1805 date as shown below. The resulting coin has a beautiful cartwheel luster.
I've added before, during and after photos of the coin along with a coin in the collar ready to be overstruck. The collar was smooth so as to preserve the edge lettering.
The end result was beautiful and I couldn't be happier. It was great to witness the conversion of a scratched and unloved coin into a high-grade, fantasy date rarity. Dan's mintage records indicated that only 33 were struck. It would be great to have a photo census of all the coins!
Thanks Dan!
Comments
Very cool but if I saw the finished coin in a dealer's case I'd think it was a silver round.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That’s the funny thing about collecting and collectors as many much more expensive non-overstruck coins can look like silver rounds too! In that sense, this is definitely an improvement!
One promising thing is that many Gallery Mint pieces from 20 years ago have nice toning now so I’m excited to see how this will evolve and tarnish!
Are you going to help it along by wrapping it in a Taco Bell napkin or by putting it in an old Kraft paper envelope?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Looks good, Dan did a nice job. Thanks for sharing the process.
Very interesting... Thanks for walking us through the process and pictures. Neat piece and now has a personal story. Cheers, RickO
Have you weighed it to see how much metal was lost from wear over time? Detail looks good considering the wear on the host coin.
Cool!
Unloved coin? That 1800 dollar would have been a prize to many. Hate to see it destroyed.
Nah, I’ve never done that myself and I probably have too many non-overstruck coins like that done by other people already. I’ll let nature do it’s work.
Besides, I like it this way as I can imagine going back in time and putting away a new coin like William Strickland.
That would be nice but I don’t see that many people cherishing damaged old coins here. Perhaps one day we’ll have Registry Set points for damaged coins. At the same time, it’s easy enough to get problem free ones which are also not loved and prized in collections at the moment.
I’m guessing it is more prized now than before as there are none of these on the market.
Unfortunately, it was already destroyed with scratches and many would call it a “problem coin”. I wonder if we’ll ever move away from calling coins with scratches “damaged” or “problems”?
I also recall that you are working on a complete collection of coins counterstamped / “destroyed” by Mel Wacks. Do you hate seeing those coins?
That being said I have to say I do like it, which is why I kept photos. Enjoying photos is about as much as many do after putting coins in the SDB so it’s like having two coins to enjoy photos of now.
Not yet but I will. I’ll post the weight when I get some time.
This was and is amazingly thin.
Forgive my ignorance, but since both the 1800 and 1921 dollars weighed, when new, .7725 ounces of silver, why does it need to be the draped bust dollar instead of a 1921 dollar or whatever.
Does it have to be design exact stamp out?
Thanks for the report. Great photos! Do you have a picture of the edge?
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Interesting transformation ..... Thank you for sharing
This makes me, at the same time, a strange kind of happy, and a weird kind of sad.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
How did the edge lettering fare?
Collector, occasional seller
Those are just my thoughts on it in the way of discussion. Anyone that owns a coin can do with it as they see fit.
Mel Wacks’ counterstamps are absolutely destroyed original US coins, but I see what the donor coin was. So no, I don’t hate to see those destroyed by someone else. That’s where my line is and I’m sure everyone’s line in the sand is different.
I’d still take that 1800 dollar over any Common date Peace dollar or Ike.
Hopefully it’s ok to make a decision and say it wether you like the 1800 or the 1805 better. Lots of people have said they like the 1805.
I feel a bit the same but I'm okay with it. While the original coin is a honest 220 year old coin, it doesn't appear to fit into the type of coin that is often cherished or recommended these days. It's damaged, low grade, and common. Essentially a damaged widget. I often hear recommendations to avoid both damaged coins and widgets, and there are quite a few on the market.
The transformation that was done reminds me of the type of restorations that are done in the car and art worlds. Something that is in very poor condition is restored to concours condition. In the classic car world, "concours condition" means perfect but not necessarily original. To me, this coin is like a car barn find which is restored to "concours condition" that could be appreciated in the car and art worlds. The fantasy date identifies it for what it is.
I will add that Dan prefers to not overstrike nice collector coins. I had a few coins I wanted to overstrike and he would put aside nicer coins recommending they not be overstruck. As an example, I had brought 2 seated liberty halves to be overstruck. One had porous surfaces which we overstruck and one was nicer which he recommended not to overstrike. I could appreciate that coin so I kept it as-is, so now I have 2 non-overstruck seated liberty halves and 1 overstruck seated liberty half.
For @PerryHall , my first seated liberty half does have what looks like napkin toning and my second now has more traditional toning. Here's a pic of my first, non-overstruck SLH, toned by someone else.
Of course you can have your own opinion and I appreciate you sharing it.
Regarding "taking" the 1800 dollar over a common date Peace or Ike dollar, a question I have is that you buy Mel Wacks overstruck coins (I assume some on common date Peace and Ike dollars) but have you purchased a damaged, low grade, common date 1800 dollar? It's easy to say one's preference, but does that translate into actual purchases?
While I can enjoy damaged, low grade, common old coins and like the general look of this coin, I don't generally go out of my way to buy them. Perhaps I could expand what I collect, but they are not in my wheelhouse for now.
Dan did overstrike Morgan and Peace dollars with the Draped Bust obverse die, but for the reverse die, he added the words "STRUCK ON A USA SILVER DOLLAR”. This is similar to the words he added to his Stella coins which say “STRUCK ON A US | $5 HALF EAGLE”.
I haven't heard the exact reasoning for this, but I assume part of it is that the goal is not to take a less expensive coin and make it into something worth more due to it's design. A Draped Bust Dollar is generally more valuable than a common date, low condition Morgan or Peace Dollar, like a Stella is worth more than a generic half eagle.
If the 1805 dollar above is worth more than the overstruck coin, it's because the buyer appreciates Dan's art, not conversion of one type to another.
Sorry, but it makes me feel a little sick. It's not an improvement in the least.
I didn't weigh it before overstriking, but afterwards, it weighs 24.18 grams against a original weight of 26.96 grams. So it's lost over 10.3% of its weight over time.
Overall, I found the coin pleasant.
John Adams was President and Thomas Jefferson was the VP when that 1800 Draped Bust Dollar was minted.
Regardless of the condition of this coin,
I would have kept it the way it was. I love historical coins from that era.
I bought a 1795 half years ago with a giant X scratched deep across the obverse. It was very worn but slabbed in a small ANACS holder. It’s one of a few coins I wish I hadn’t sold.
You can’t hardly look at a coin like that without wondering who held it and what they were doing.
Thanks for sharing Zion nice presentation!
Do you own a Draped Bust Dollar? If not, why not go get one as they are fun to own, relatively inexpensive and commonly available.
The good thing about the original here is that it’s a damaged, common date and easy to replace with a non-damaged specimen. There are a lot of them with over 220K minted. There are also way more low grade Draped Bust Dollars than collectors for them.
I love having the 1805 because it’s a beautiful rarity to me, like going back in time. I like the original too and would love to own a high grade specimen but those are pricey. Until then, I have to thank Dan for providing the next best thing!
They are nice, old coins. The damaged ones are nice to hold raw too.
What’s stopping you from replacing it? For example, what drives your interest in collecting Mel Wacks coins instead of these old coins now?
I'm sorry, but I object to altering one type into a different, more valuable type.
Thank you for objecting that is what makes America GREAT! Zion I wish I had that old coin you had cause what Dan punched out was SO BRILLIANT DAZZLING AND AMAZING WHEN IT GLARED INYO MY EYES! I mean what a Beauty she is and A big thanks to you for sharing your thought and vision with me at Dans Shop! But she is something to hold you almost have to be there!
Don’t be sorry. I think there may be some misunderstanding here as I think you, me, and Dan are all on the same page about not converting one type to another, more valuable type.
Then please explain what happened. Was a Peace Dollar converted into a Draped Bust dollar, or not?
To me, a Peace Dollar was not overstruck as a fantasy-date Draped Bust Dollar. To me, a Peace Dollar was overstruck as silver round that says "STRUCK ON A USA SILVER DOLLAR". The reason is because a regular US coin doesn't have that text on it. There are a lot of silver rounds that use US coin designs but different text or even missing text such as no date.
Draped Bust production (over-striking) details are posted here:
moonlightmint.com/blog_29.htm
Yes sir,
I do own a Draped Bust Dollar. And I love it, warts and all.
1798 $1 PCGS Good-6 (Large Eagle):
I believe that the ones struck over other type dollars are in violation of the Hobby Protection Act of 1973, as currently amended. The notice of what the piece is is in raised lettering that can easily be removed. The HPA requires a specific notice, the word COPY, incused into the coin with mandatory dimensions as to height, width and depth.
As previously mentioned in various threads, the minor change of one detail, such as the date, does not exempt an imitation numismatic item from the HPA. You have previously claimed exemption from the HPA on the grounds that you were merely creating a piece of artwork out of an existing coin, such as somebody else might do with a Hobo Nickel. I believe that changing the type of the coin steps over that line.
Awesome 👏
Nice that yours is not a problem coin like mine was.
Not a fan but you certainly didn’t ask me. One less treasure, one more widget
I get it Carr is an impressive engineer but if his name was Lee and his stuff was made in China instead of Colorado people here would be outraged. Even if everything else was the same.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Interesting perspective. To me it’s “one more treasure, one less widget.” The reason is with only 33 minted and none offered for sale, it’s too rare to be a widget. At the same time, low grade, damaged Draped Bust Dollars are always available and interchangeable so it’s easy for me to classify that as a widget. Of course, MS dollars are certainly not widgets.
That’s not true for me. If a U.S. Mint coin designer named Lee was working in China to make limited mintage, well-documented overstrikes on a former U.S. coin press, I would still be interested in the pieces.
At the same time, if an American on American soil was making cheap cast counterfeits with no attribution or mintage, I would not be interested.
Strongly agree.
This post makes me sad, just straight sad. Not "weirdly sad and strangely happy" like others have said. Just sad.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
This hurt to see, especially from the point of view from someone who can’t afford a draped bust dollar yet. Why not overstrike a peace or Morgan.
There will still be many Draped Bust Dollars when you can afford them. There are a lot of low grade Draped Bust Dollars available. Many are common date, problem coins like the one here, but many others are problem free. When you get one, I suggest getting a problem free one. Check on eBay to get an idea of what's available.
And why are you okay with overstriking Peace and Morgan dollars, but not Draped Bust Dollars?
A beautiful rebirth. On a new planchet it’d be a round. With the same storied metal it’s something much more special. My two cents.
In reading through this thread, I think it's a shame that Zoins has to defend his activity concerning his own property. If I wanted to turn all my coins into love tokens, or use them as targets, that's my business......Just the same if I want to paint my car purple.
I think this started as a well constructed, informative and educational thread !
Im just plain sad. 220 years of history and honest commercial usage turned into a $15 trinket.
Zoins doesnt need to defend his position. His reasons are his own. But i would never do such a thing. And thats what makes the world go round.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
It’s a discussion forum! By all means collect and do what you want. Post what you did to a public discussion forum and expect different responses.
Remember Jim Zumbo? He was hunting and firearms commentator years ago that criticized one type of rifle that people like. The community basically disowned him for a while. Then everybody agreed they shouldn’t be attacking one of their own.
Point being, there are some wildly different views about what’s acceptable. Isn’t this THE place to discuss and defend what you like?
Honestly, neither the before or after coins do anything for me personally. I'd rather look at UNC bust dollars on CoinFacts.
Good perspective. Thanks for posting. I would love to have a unc bust dollar too! Unfortunately they are very pricey and out of my budget now. Before Dan’s 1805, I would just look at photos of top specimens as well.
For as many people who say they would have kept the dollar as is, it’s interesting that there is only a single “like” for the coin posted by @CoinHoarder , and that single like is from me.
I wonder if the other people saying they would keep the coin as is actually have low grade bust dollars, or if they are also ones that look at photos but don’t collect these?
I wish I had one ohhh I remember I got one of the other 1805 antiqued from Dan. So I do have one but now back on a budget to pay off the trip money. Ewwww I guess I bought to many coins from the trip but today I get to take pictures of them! I wish I had your 1805 Zion!
Finally 2 days off! Thank you for posting a picture while the coin was in the Grabener press with the 1800 showing I was not able to get a snap. Plus the 1800 outline still slightly visible was cool after the process. Nice catch.
This sounds like you don’t collect Dan’s work. If you did, you would know his over struck coins never sell for $15 and can sell for hundreds of dollars and in this case perhaps over a thousand. Many of them are also simply never on the market because of the demand.
I’m appreciate the discussion and think the differences are interesting. When we talk about value in collectibles, we often compare coins to the art and classic car markets, both of which support well-documented restorations, some from really poor condition originals. For those that yearn for coins to achieve art or classic car type valuations for coins, it’s something to think about.
Hmmm, someone should shoot you if you overstruck that 1866 1/2!