@3stars said:
Big difference here is that the 95 was available for months (if you had $999 to buy the gold set), so anyone with the funds could have purchased one. The 19 was an immediate sellout. If folks in 95 knew that eagle would be a key more would have sold.
At that time the eagle program was a mere 9 years old. Who knew then what it would turn into?
It was actually a created coin by Diehl for the ASE's 10th anniversary.
We could get into the argument about what is an "anniversary" is again , but it was the 10th year the coin was produced. (Probably because people just subtract instead of including 1986 itself.) The Mint has been wrong in every anniversary since.
Yes of course, but the salient point is that the program wasn't that far along.
@wondercoin said:
“Why should the Mint care about protecting those sitting on multiple 95-W Eagles? Look at all the excitement and debate the release of the 19-S has generated..
And, if this is truly the case, then they may also not care about “protecting” those sitting on multiple 2019-S coins. Consider the excitement and debate that a 25,000 mintage silver eagle will generate! And, so the solution is dealing and flipping “moderns”, but not paying up as a collector to collect them? I certainly hope not.
Wondercoin
"And so the solution is dealing and flipping moderns". "I certainly hope not".
Isn't that what you do or did WC?
That's all any Dealer (Seller) of anything, houses, cars, coins or anything that is sold,
is a flipper!
@wondercoin said:
For the past (24) years, the 1995-W Silver Eagle was the “King”. Prices were established over that lengthy period of time. It appears to me that lovely, high end 69 grade examples of this 95-W coin (as very few are 70 quality) have already corrected downward by nearly 15%-20%. The loss of money to those collectors, dealers and investors sitting on those 30,000+ 1995-W coins is almost equal to the gains made already by the buyers of the 2019-S coins! In my personal case, I probably have a bakers dozen, give or take, of 95-W coins. And, at the beginning of this year, I wasn’t really concerned about owning that position of the King of such a great series of coins. Maybe I had $50,000 tied up in 69 quality coins of the 95-W. I figure my position has probably lost around $10,000 already with the introduction of this 2019-S coin. Do the math on how much has been likely lost through the release of the 2019-S on all 30,000+ 95-W coins owned by collectors, etc. - not only on my tiny position.
One truly has to wonder what the Mint was thinking when it decided to create the lowest mintage silver eagle and sell it for $66 when comparable 95-W Mintage coins of 24 years ago were, at the time, worth deep into the $3,000s range of value (not any more). No thought at all for those collectors holding 95-W coins? And, with such disregard for the 95-W collector base, what will happen to the 2019-S coins if the Mint ever decides to offer a Silver Eagle with a 28,000-29,000 Mintage in the years ahead? As a true collector of 95-W silver eagle coins (including a 70 grade example in my #1 PCGS Registry set of Top 100 Modern coins), I am truly so confused by the release of this 2019-S coin.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
As someone who also handles more than a "bakers dozen" 95-w coins I feel that there can be no argument with the 2019-s and 95-w price coming down. In fact, I too purchased 95-w coins some months back for the $2850-$3000 and started struggling to sell them. I do know of a certain major telemarketer that was pushing these heavily for quite awhile and that kept bids comfortably in the 3k range. Now without his bids I witnessed many pieces selling for $2500-$2700 and now even less than that even as far back as 2 months ago
The skyrocketing of the 2019-s I question if its because of the "low mintage" or because of some great "marketing" or perception of its "rarity".
Lets look back in 3 months from now and see where prices are holding for each.
if your argument is against the mint and you believe it is their fault for the lowering market, what do you believe was the "right" thing to do?
@wondercoin said:
For the past (24) years, the 1995-W Silver Eagle was the “King”. Prices were established over that lengthy period of time. It appears to me that lovely, high end 69 grade examples of this 95-W coin (as very few are 70 quality) have already corrected downward by nearly 15%-20%. The loss of money to those collectors, dealers and investors sitting on those 30,000+ 1995-W coins is almost equal to the gains made already by the buyers of the 2019-S coins! In my personal case, I probably have a bakers dozen, give or take, of 95-W coins. And, at the beginning of this year, I wasn’t really concerned about owning that position of the King of such a great series of coins. Maybe I had $50,000 tied up in 69 quality coins of the 95-W. I figure my position has probably lost around $10,000 already with the introduction of this 2019-S coin. Do the math on how much has been likely lost through the release of the 2019-S on all 30,000+ 95-W coins owned by collectors, etc. - not only on my tiny position.
One truly has to wonder what the Mint was thinking when it decided to create the lowest mintage silver eagle and sell it for $66 when comparable 95-W Mintage coins of 24 years ago were, at the time, worth deep into the $3,000s range of value (not any more). No thought at all for those collectors holding 95-W coins? And, with such disregard for the 95-W collector base, what will happen to the 2019-S coins if the Mint ever decides to offer a Silver Eagle with a 28,000-29,000 Mintage in the years ahead? As a true collector of 95-W silver eagle coins (including a 70 grade example in my #1 PCGS Registry set of Top 100 Modern coins), I am truly so confused by the release of this 2019-S coin.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I don't track the modern market like you do, but it strikes me that the 95-W was already in a period of decline and the reduction you are seeing is likely a continuation of that trend and may not be directly related to the 2019-S enhanced reverse proof coins.
@wondercoin said:
“Why should the Mint care about protecting those sitting on multiple 95-W Eagles? Look at all the excitement and debate the release of the 19-S has generated..
And, if this is truly the case, then they may also not care about “protecting” those sitting on multiple 2019-S coins. Consider the excitement and debate that a 25,000 mintage silver eagle will generate! And, so the solution is dealing and flipping “moderns”, but not paying up as a collector to collect them? I certainly hope not.
Wondercoin
For 95% of the modern market, I think this is already the case. Top pop business strikes and some limited proof issues excepted unless my perception of the market is wrong.
@DelawareDoons said:
My hot take; Injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity into the hobby is not a bad thing. People sitting on a bakers dozen examples of a key date, though?
It's not necessarily "injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity INTO the hobby". I haven't seen proof of that yet.
What it MAY be doing is to MOVE AROUND hundreds of thousands of dollars already in the hobby.
So, if someone has $1000 to spend on numismatics (the hobby) and they purchase, after release, 2 of these, then that is $1000 that they may have already decided to spend on the hobby....maybe on other moderns or on classics. Now, that $1000 isn't spent on a seated dollar or some Indian Head Cents.....
Like I said, I haven't seen any proof that NEW money is being injected into the hobby
Risk of buying to sell and the market stalls or falls.
Were not able to purchased one at 65.95 + shipping.
Otherwise, this is nothing more than marketing by the mint for the hobby. Yes, some, that actually might be collecting this series, did not or could not purchase one for their set. Sorry....I truly am....collector to collector.
For the other 29000 people whom purchased to hold or purchased to flip, I hope you put the funds back into your coin collecting hobby or have a great Thanksgiving for you and yours. The market will find itself
How would you like to be the person that was holding a ROLL of 1903 O UNC Morgans in 1962? 1960 value of $500, dropped to $35!! The Treasury released BAGS of 1903 O mint Morgan dollars to the banks.
There is no upside to the Enhanced Reverse Proof. Creating artificial demand through limited releases just adds to the deluge of Mint junk coming out that nobody can or wants to keep up with. They struck gold with the state quarter program 20 years ago; a simple and understandably popular series that was made more enjoyable by having a finite end. Since then, the Mint has just trotted out special issue after special issue, each more desperate than the last. We're heading straight for the same cliff that we saw back in the '30s with classic commemoratives, too much quantity for the average collector to absorb. Except this time, the collector base is aging, with little prospect for replacements; nobody is going to be interested in this stuff 20 years from now, no matter how restricted the mintages are made. Gimmicks to longtime existing series like the Silver Eagle take it a step further by throwing a slap in the face to longtime enthusiasts, creating an artificial rarity that you have to buy to "complete" your collection. It's just going to keep driving people away.
@DelawareDoons said:
My hot take; Injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity into the hobby is not a bad thing. People sitting on a bakers dozen examples of a key date, though?
It's not necessarily "injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity INTO the hobby". I haven't seen proof of that yet.
What it MAY be doing is to MOVE AROUND hundreds of thousands of dollars already in the hobby.
So, if someone has $1000 to spend on numismatics (the hobby) and they purchase, after release, 2 of these, then that is $1000 that they may have already decided to spend on the hobby....maybe on other moderns or on classics. Now, that $1000 isn't spent on a seated dollar or some Indian Head Cents.....
Like I said, I haven't seen any proof that NEW money is being injected into the hobby
I am presently awaiting a nice Morgan I purchased with the proceeds from selling 3 of these.
Your mileage may vary.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@DelawareDoons said:
My hot take; Injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity into the hobby is not a bad thing. People sitting on a bakers dozen examples of a key date, though?
It's not necessarily "injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity INTO the hobby". I haven't seen proof of that yet.
What it MAY be doing is to MOVE AROUND hundreds of thousands of dollars already in the hobby.
So, if someone has $1000 to spend on numismatics (the hobby) and they purchase, after release, 2 of these, then that is $1000 that they may have already decided to spend on the hobby....maybe on other moderns or on classics. Now, that $1000 isn't spent on a seated dollar or some Indian Head Cents.....
Like I said, I haven't seen any proof that NEW money is being injected into the hobby
I am presently awaiting a nice Morgan I purchased with the proceeds from selling 3 of these.
Your mileage may vary.
Your last line is exactly my point...."your mileage may vary".....in other words, we DO NOT know.....
Some will use the money they got from flipping to buy coins. Some will use that money to NOT buy coins (I bought a large screen flat screen TV when I flipped my 2006 AGE set, with my profits).
Some that BUY the coins in the after market will be using money they would have used on other coins, such as a "nice Morgan".
Again, no one knows.....each person is different. Without all the info, it is all guesswork, but thinking "hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity into the hobby" is hyperbole
(nothing wrong with that....kind of funny to some.....would be just as funny, and as much a hyperbole if someone had said it took "hundreds of thousands of dollars OUT of the hobby".
If you ("royal you" ) were one of the lucky ones to get one and you flip it and buy a coin you really wanted, then great! That's awesome. If you sell one and buy a new TV, then that's awesome as well. Everyone will do different stuff.
Ok dude. Whatever. I don't care enough to argue the point.
I believe it to be hyperbole. You don't. Rock on and continuing being all knowing without the facts.
I'm done with it. Others, that have been down this before, know what I am talking about.
How does your 1995-W look? Has it developed any spots?
Did your process it in any way before having it graded.
Spotting caused me to stop collecting Silver Eagles many years ago.
How have the 1995-W coins held up overall.... what percentage would you say have developed spots?
Grandam: I haven’t looked at my 70 in a few years. Afraid to! Lol.
The 95-W have not held up all that well. Most of the 69s have developed a small spot here and a small spot there I believe.
I don’t collect the series either in part due to spotting. The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
“There is no upside to the Enhanced Reverse Proof. Creating artificial demand through limited releases just adds to the deluge of Mint junk coming out that nobody can or wants to keep up with. They struck gold with the state quarter program 20 years ago; a simple and understandably popular series that was made more enjoyable by having a finite end. Since then, the Mint has just trotted out special issue after special issue, each more desperate than the last. We're heading straight for the same cliff that we saw back in the '30s with classic commemoratives, too much quantity for the average collector to absorb. Except this time, the collector base is aging, with little prospect for replacements; nobody is going to be interested in this stuff 20 years from now, no matter how restricted the mintages are made. Gimmicks to longtime existing series like the Silver Eagle take it a step further by throwing a slap in the face to longtime enthusiasts, creating an artificial rarity that you have to buy to "complete" your collection. It's just going to keep driving people away.”
Well said. It’s simply artificial demand to a longtime existing series.
Some people like natural scarcities/rarities. Some people prefer “silicone”. I was always a fan of natural created rarities as well. Welcome to the silicone world of coins!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thanks for that honest info,,,,,, I am afraid to hold any Silver Eagle long term.
Some people say to dip them as soon as you get them to try to prevevt spotting, anyone know if this works or not? I do soak all my Silver Eagles in acetone before I put them away for long term storage.
I have a few just trying the acetone bath to see if it stops the spotting long term,,,, 5 yrs down the road I will check to see what they look like.
The Canadian Mint claims to have solved or at least greatly reduced the problem. Starting in 2018 they are treating all the Maple Leafs with a process. I have put some of those away long term as well.
How many collectors will decide to drop the series for good because they become disgusted with the way the 2019-S was distributed and decide they don't want to play that game?
Will enough new collectors come along to fill the shoes of those that drop out?
How long before the flippers move on to something new?
Will registry sets be required to have slabbed COA's? Will the "market" require slabbed COA's?
I think the Mint is doing their job when they create products that people want to buy, and sell them for a profit.
They shouldn't be required to ensure that one mintage is greater than another to ensure the "value" of a prior issue.
I don't know why some people are attracted to many of their products, but they are. I'm sure there are plenty of people with closets full of boxes of "treasure". To each his own.
More damaging to this hobby are late night TV coin shows hyping overpriced "rarities", traveling gold buyers, people on eBay who crack out details graded coins and sell them to unsuspecting buyers...the list goes on.
I stopped collecting the series years ago. But I do collect all the reverse proof and enhanced versions. I will not buy slabbed versions anymore because of the spotting issue. I believe the mint might undermine the 2019 with a lower montage later on. Buying at these prices Is taking a risk. If you want the 2019 why not wait til the series ends.
Wow... The debates rage on....The entire spectrum of collecting has been covered over this 2019 ERP....Even the myth of aging collectors/no young collectors - which has been a recurring theme for as long as I can remember - way before computers and coin forums. I will just enjoy my '95W, and my ERP when/if I get one.... Meanwhile I have many things to enjoy today...Cheers, RickO
I think ultimately the 95-W will remain the king. Calling the 2019-S the king with a mintage of a lousy 100+ less coins is as much a gimmick as the coin itself. 95-W is a standard proof not a gimmicky reverse proof with barber pole stripes on the device. 95-W is scarce in 70, 2019-S will mostly grade 70. Time will tell but I'm reliving Chicago release labels on the gold Kennedy. I'm not mad because I didn't get one because I did.
@meluaufeet said:
The thought of trading my 2 sealed plus $$$ for a 95w 69...
Dont think that will happen...
I have a spare 95W 69 in a blue plastic box somewhere. I think I will go hunt it down today as the surge in new silver eagle collectors may want the thing after all.
@ricko said:
Wow... The debates rage on....The entire spectrum of collecting has been covered over this 2019 ERP....Even the myth of aging collectors/no young collectors - which has been a recurring theme for as long as I can remember - way before computers and coin forums. I will just enjoy my '95W, and my ERP when/if I get one.... Meanwhile I have many things to enjoy today...Cheers, RickO
You have, by far, the best attitude on the Forum. There should be some honorific title we can bestow upon you!
@JimTyler said:
I think ultimately the 95-W will remain the king. Calling the 2019-S the king with a mintage of a lousy 100+ less coins is as much a gimmick as the coin itself. 95-W is a standard proof not a gimmicky reverse proof with barber pole stripes on the device. 95-W is scarce in 70, 2019-S will mostly grade 70. Time will tell but I'm reliving Chicago release labels on the gold Kennedy. I'm not mad because I didn't get one because I did.
Some truth here. The only thing I might question is that the 2019 will "mostly grade 70". We don't know that yet. They have had trouble with the reverse proofs in the past that limited the 70 yield.
"The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key."
This crazy 2019-S ERP is finally a good excuse to get the Top 100 Modern coin set revised.
Drop the 1964-D Peace $1, MS, the
1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent, MS, and the
2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Dollar, PR which were never really collectable in the first place.
Add the 2019-S ERP and a couple more. Maybe make a post of what other 2 should be included and have a poll?
Look at the brighter side. Coin collecting is a dying hobby. And how many new collector and flipper are willing to pay a few thousands dollars for a 95 W? However if they were lucky enough to purchase a 2019-S ERP at $70, the possibilities to our hobby would be endless.
"The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key."
This crazy 2019-S ERP is finally a good excuse to get the Top 100 Modern coin set revised.
Drop the 1964-D Peace $1, MS, the
1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent, MS, and the
2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Dollar, PR which were never really collectable in the first place.
Add the 2019-S ERP and a couple more. Maybe make a post of what other 2 should be included and have a poll?
Why would they have the illegal 1964-D Peace $ and 1974 Lincoln Cent in there?
"The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key."
This crazy 2019-S ERP is finally a good excuse to get the Top 100 Modern coin set revised.
Drop the 1964-D Peace $1, MS, the
1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent, MS, and the
2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Dollar, PR which were never really collectable in the first place.
Add the 2019-S ERP and a couple more. Maybe make a post of what other 2 should be included and have a poll?
Why would they have the illegal 1964-D Peace $ and 1974 Lincoln Cent in there?
I figured it was fiendishly designed so Mitch couldn't ever collect a complete set..
edited to say I think it was the book which documented 100 top modern coins that started this Registry set idea.
Even from the start I never thought a Registry set should include illegal, or require unique, single minted coins.
Of course they are real history and should be referenced and mentioned in the set description for completeness, but not required as part of the registry set to actually collect.
"The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key."
This crazy 2019-S ERP is finally a good excuse to get the Top 100 Modern coin set revised.
Drop the 1964-D Peace $1, MS, the
1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent, MS, and the
2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Dollar, PR which were never really collectable in the first place.
Add the 2019-S ERP and a couple more. Maybe make a post of what other 2 should be included and have a poll?
Why would they have the illegal 1964-D Peace $ and 1974 Lincoln Cent in there?
Because they're considered two of the top 100 coins of all time.
@2bucks said:
What was the original issue price of the 1995-W Silver Eagle?
True part of the 4 coin gold set that year at no extra cost. Believe it or not sets sold without the 95-W ASE. buyers wanted matched sets with other years bought. Talk about kicking yourself in the ( l )
"The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key."
This crazy 2019-S ERP is finally a good excuse to get the Top 100 Modern coin set revised.
Drop the 1964-D Peace $1, MS, the
1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent, MS, and the
2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Dollar, PR which were never really collectable in the first place.
Add the 2019-S ERP and a couple more. Maybe make a post of what other 2 should be included and have a poll?
Why would they have the illegal 1964-D Peace $ and 1974 Lincoln Cent in there?
Because they're considered two of the top 100 coins of all time.
Ridiculous. They are a never issued coin and a pattern. Are there other pattern coins on the list? What about the glass WWII cents?
If you read the comment under my Top 100 Modern Set, you will see that DH agreed to remove the (3) illegal to own coins from the set (even stating the date when they would be removed), but they never were. Of course, they should be. The Gold or silver curved baseball coin deserves to be included in the set as does this 2019-S silver eagle without question. Other coins need replacing as well - is there even 1 person out there that believes the Margaret Taylor coin still deserves to be included in the Top 100 set! Lol.
Anyway this is OT, but should certainly be addressed in 2020.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@3stars said:
If folks in 95 knew that eagle would be a key more would have sold.
Everyone knew the 1995-W would be a key. The announced mintage limit was 45,000, and many unhappy collectors were shut out because they couldn't afford the gold set it came in. That's why it didn't sell out despite being available from the Mint for several months.
@ChopmarkedTrades said:
Gimmicks to longtime existing series like the Silver Eagle take it a step further by throwing a slap in the face to longtime enthusiasts, creating an artificial rarity that you have to buy to "complete" your collection. It's just going to keep driving people away.
Like the 2019-S, the 1995-W itself was considered a "manufactured rarity." Many collectors stopped collecting silver eagles because of this coin.
manufactured rarity if you look at it from a socioeconomic perspective perhaps.
That is far different than the vast majority of buyers not being able to even get their orders through at the Mint who wanted a coin. And the mint producing too few on purpose for whatever reason they decided to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@3stars said:
If folks in 95 knew that eagle would be a key more would have sold.
Everyone knew the 1995-W would be a key. The announced mintage limit was 45,000, and many unhappy collectors were shut out because they couldn't afford the gold set it came in. That's why it didn't sell out despite being available from the Mint for several months.
Like the 2019-S, the 1995-W was considered a "manufactured rarity." Many collectors stopped collecting silver eagles because of this coin.
Nevertheless, the "manufactured rarities" ARE PART OF THE SET. Without them, any SE set is incomplete and what folks who collect these decide to do does not change anything. LOL, it's a cruel, cruel, world.
@Insider2 said:
Nevertheless, the "manufactured rarities" ARE PART OF THE SET. Without them, any SE set is incomplete and what folks who collect these decide to do does not change anything. LOL, it's a cruel, cruel, world.
Depends on the "set" you are collecting. Many people collect only bullion coins. Fewer collect regular proofs. Fewer still collect burnished, reverse proofs and "enhanced" reverse proofs. Basically, only those who collect every date, mint mark and variation will need this coin to complete their sets.
manufactured rarity if you look at it from a socioeconomic perspective perhaps.
That is far different than the vast majority of buyers not being able to even get their orders through at the Mint who wanted a coin. And the mint producing too few on purpose for whatever reason they decided to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I'm looking at the 1995-W as a "manufactured rarity" from the perspective of a collector who was present for both occasions. The announced limit of 45,000 coins, far below the mintage of any other proofs, automatically put the 1995-W in that category. The Mint produced "too few on purpose" back then also, as there was known existing demand for several hundred thousand proofs for each date/mintmark. The average collector was shut out both times, the first because of affordability and the second because of the way orders were processed.
If the Mint, instead, had included the 2019-S ERP in this year's gold eagle proof set (current price $3,385) with an announced mintage limit of 30,000, it would not have sold out nearly as fast, and might not have sold out at all. And the coin would still have been out of reach for the average silver eagle collector.
manufactured rarity if you look at it from a socioeconomic perspective perhaps.
That is far different than the vast majority of buyers not being able to even get their orders through at the Mint who wanted a coin. And the mint producing too few on purpose for whatever reason they decided to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I'm looking at the 1995-W as a "manufactured rarity" from the perspective of a collector who was present for both occasions. The announced limit of 45,000 coins, far below the mintage of any other proofs, automatically put the 1995-W in that category. The Mint produced "too few on purpose" back then also, as there was known existing demand for several hundred thousand proofs for each date/mintmark. The average collector was shut out both times, the first because of affordability and the second because of the way orders were processed.
If the Mint, instead, had included the 2019-S ERP in this year's gold eagle proof set (current price $3,385) with an announced mintage limit of 30,000, it would not have sold out nearly as fast, and might not have sold out at all. And the coin would still have been out of reach for the average silver eagle collector.
If you look at the mintages relative to the baseline proof sales in 1995, the 30,000 mintage is relatively higher than the 45,000 max in 1995.
Interesting thread. I like the design of the SAE and I'm in favor of US mint issued silver bullion. Beyond stacking silver, I can't understand those who see it as a collectible series. The milk spots alone would drive me nuts and it's not meant for commerce anyhow. Contrived rarities and special finishes are a bit gimmicky for me too..... for instance I'd never consider a set of Lib nickels incomplete if it lacked only the 1913.
Mitch is certainly one of the experts in the world of modern collecting, so predicting where prices go from here is something about which I'm totally ignorant. The idea of sitting on a whole stack of 95-W coins is something that would scare me to death, but Mitch is in a better place to assess that risk than I am. 30,000 is the opposite of rare and I'd be surprised to see interest and prices stay where they are now. Finally, I'm absolutely opposed to the government acting like they're running a business, catering to certain interests and ignoring others. As a whole, government forgets who they work for and who pays their salaries.
@Insider2 said:
Nevertheless, the "manufactured rarities" ARE PART OF THE SET. Without them, any SE set is incomplete and what folks who collect these decide to do does not change anything. LOL, it's a cruel, cruel, world.
Depends on the "set" you are collecting. Many people collect only bullion coins. Fewer collect regular proofs. Fewer still collect burnished, reverse proofs and "enhanced" reverse proofs. Basically, only those who collect every date, mint mark and variation will need this coin to complete their sets.
That's what I said. Just like a "short set of Walkers" is a "set" but it is not a complete set! No 1995 or 2019 and you don't have a complete set of SE. While an individual can decide what constitutes their personal set of coins - MY PERSONAL SET of SE consists of specimens with a date ending in:
8
So far, it is a complete set. LOL! Get my point now?
I love these threads! I can step away for five minutes or 55 minutes or five hours and I will come back and there will be plenty to read. Thank you all....
Hey, if you want to see your single post thread disappear quickly, just post an inappropriate question about the ATS grading company. C’mon, now.
@MilesWaits said:
I love these threads! I can step away for five minutes or 55 minutes or five hours and I will come back and there will be plenty to read. Thank you all....
Hey, if you want to see your single post thread disappear quickly, just post an inappropriate question about the ATS grading company. C’mon, now.
It's been an exciting week and a half here at the CU.
All we need now is a price drop so that all the hoarders panic, all the curmudgeons can say "I told you so", and the board will light up with another 10,000 posts!
Comments
USPS did something similar a while back with 100 sheets of inverted Jenny stamps that had the plane right side up.
Yes of course, but the salient point is that the program wasn't that far along.
That's all any Dealer (Seller) of anything, houses, cars, coins or anything that is sold,
is a flipper!
As someone who also handles more than a "bakers dozen" 95-w coins I feel that there can be no argument with the 2019-s and 95-w price coming down. In fact, I too purchased 95-w coins some months back for the $2850-$3000 and started struggling to sell them. I do know of a certain major telemarketer that was pushing these heavily for quite awhile and that kept bids comfortably in the 3k range. Now without his bids I witnessed many pieces selling for $2500-$2700 and now even less than that even as far back as 2 months ago
The skyrocketing of the 2019-s I question if its because of the "low mintage" or because of some great "marketing" or perception of its "rarity".
Lets look back in 3 months from now and see where prices are holding for each.
if your argument is against the mint and you believe it is their fault for the lowering market, what do you believe was the "right" thing to do?
I don't track the modern market like you do, but it strikes me that the 95-W was already in a period of decline and the reduction you are seeing is likely a continuation of that trend and may not be directly related to the 2019-S enhanced reverse proof coins.
For 95% of the modern market, I think this is already the case. Top pop business strikes and some limited proof issues excepted unless my perception of the market is wrong.
It's not necessarily "injecting hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity INTO the hobby". I haven't seen proof of that yet.
What it MAY be doing is to MOVE AROUND hundreds of thousands of dollars already in the hobby.
So, if someone has $1000 to spend on numismatics (the hobby) and they purchase, after release, 2 of these, then that is $1000 that they may have already decided to spend on the hobby....maybe on other moderns or on classics. Now, that $1000 isn't spent on a seated dollar or some Indian Head Cents.....
Like I said, I haven't seen any proof that NEW money is being injected into the hobby
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
What if the guy whom flipped the coin took his quick cash and bought some Indian Head Cents?
Two downsides to the 2019 S ASE reverse proof.
Risk of buying to sell and the market stalls or falls.
Were not able to purchased one at 65.95 + shipping.
Otherwise, this is nothing more than marketing by the mint for the hobby. Yes, some, that actually might be collecting this series, did not or could not purchase one for their set. Sorry....I truly am....collector to collector.
For the other 29000 people whom purchased to hold or purchased to flip, I hope you put the funds back into your coin collecting hobby or have a great Thanksgiving for you and yours. The market will find itself
How would you like to be the person that was holding a ROLL of 1903 O UNC Morgans in 1962? 1960 value of $500, dropped to $35!! The Treasury released BAGS of 1903 O mint Morgan dollars to the banks.
There is no upside to the Enhanced Reverse Proof. Creating artificial demand through limited releases just adds to the deluge of Mint junk coming out that nobody can or wants to keep up with. They struck gold with the state quarter program 20 years ago; a simple and understandably popular series that was made more enjoyable by having a finite end. Since then, the Mint has just trotted out special issue after special issue, each more desperate than the last. We're heading straight for the same cliff that we saw back in the '30s with classic commemoratives, too much quantity for the average collector to absorb. Except this time, the collector base is aging, with little prospect for replacements; nobody is going to be interested in this stuff 20 years from now, no matter how restricted the mintages are made. Gimmicks to longtime existing series like the Silver Eagle take it a step further by throwing a slap in the face to longtime enthusiasts, creating an artificial rarity that you have to buy to "complete" your collection. It's just going to keep driving people away.
I am presently awaiting a nice Morgan I purchased with the proceeds from selling 3 of these.
Your mileage may vary.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Your last line is exactly my point...."your mileage may vary".....in other words, we DO NOT know.....
Some will use the money they got from flipping to buy coins. Some will use that money to NOT buy coins (I bought a large screen flat screen TV when I flipped my 2006 AGE set, with my profits).
Some that BUY the coins in the after market will be using money they would have used on other coins, such as a "nice Morgan".
Again, no one knows.....each person is different. Without all the info, it is all guesswork, but thinking "hundreds of thousands of dollars of liquidity into the hobby" is hyperbole
(nothing wrong with that....kind of funny to some.....would be just as funny, and as much a hyperbole if someone had said it took "hundreds of thousands of dollars OUT of the hobby".
If you ("royal you"
) were one of the lucky ones to get one and you flip it and buy a coin you really wanted, then great! That's awesome. If you sell one and buy a new TV, then that's awesome as well. Everyone will do different stuff.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Ok dude. Whatever. I don't care enough to argue the point.
I believe it to be hyperbole. You don't. Rock on and continuing being all knowing without the facts.
I'm done with it. Others, that have been down this before, know what I am talking about.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Hey Mitch,
How does your 1995-W look? Has it developed any spots?
Did your process it in any way before having it graded.
Spotting caused me to stop collecting Silver Eagles many years ago.
How have the 1995-W coins held up overall.... what percentage would you say have developed spots?
Grandam: I haven’t looked at my 70 in a few years. Afraid to! Lol.
The 95-W have not held up all that well. Most of the 69s have developed a small spot here and a small spot there I believe.
I don’t collect the series either in part due to spotting. The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key.
Wondercoin
To me, the real downside is spotting
“There is no upside to the Enhanced Reverse Proof. Creating artificial demand through limited releases just adds to the deluge of Mint junk coming out that nobody can or wants to keep up with. They struck gold with the state quarter program 20 years ago; a simple and understandably popular series that was made more enjoyable by having a finite end. Since then, the Mint has just trotted out special issue after special issue, each more desperate than the last. We're heading straight for the same cliff that we saw back in the '30s with classic commemoratives, too much quantity for the average collector to absorb. Except this time, the collector base is aging, with little prospect for replacements; nobody is going to be interested in this stuff 20 years from now, no matter how restricted the mintages are made. Gimmicks to longtime existing series like the Silver Eagle take it a step further by throwing a slap in the face to longtime enthusiasts, creating an artificial rarity that you have to buy to "complete" your collection. It's just going to keep driving people away.”
Well said. It’s simply artificial demand to a longtime existing series.
Some people like natural scarcities/rarities. Some people prefer “silicone”. I was always a fan of natural created rarities as well. Welcome to the silicone world of coins!
Wondercoin
Mitch,
Thanks for that honest info,,,,,, I am afraid to hold any Silver Eagle long term.
Some people say to dip them as soon as you get them to try to prevevt spotting, anyone know if this works or not? I do soak all my Silver Eagles in acetone before I put them away for long term storage.
I have a few just trying the acetone bath to see if it stops the spotting long term,,,, 5 yrs down the road I will check to see what they look like.
The Canadian Mint claims to have solved or at least greatly reduced the problem. Starting in 2018 they are treating all the Maple Leafs with a process. I have put some of those away long term as well.
The thought of trading my 2 sealed plus $$$ for a 95w 69...
Dont think that will happen...
Supply and demand will rule.
How many collectors will decide to drop the series for good because they become disgusted with the way the 2019-S was distributed and decide they don't want to play that game?
Will enough new collectors come along to fill the shoes of those that drop out?
How long before the flippers move on to something new?
Will registry sets be required to have slabbed COA's? Will the "market" require slabbed COA's?
So many things need to sort themselves out.
I think the Mint is doing their job when they create products that people want to buy, and sell them for a profit.
They shouldn't be required to ensure that one mintage is greater than another to ensure the "value" of a prior issue.
I don't know why some people are attracted to many of their products, but they are. I'm sure there are plenty of people with closets full of boxes of "treasure". To each his own.
More damaging to this hobby are late night TV coin shows hyping overpriced "rarities", traveling gold buyers, people on eBay who crack out details graded coins and sell them to unsuspecting buyers...the list goes on.
He who knows he has enough is rich.
I stopped collecting the series years ago. But I do collect all the reverse proof and enhanced versions. I will not buy slabbed versions anymore because of the spotting issue. I believe the mint might undermine the 2019 with a lower montage later on. Buying at these prices Is taking a risk. If you want the 2019 why not wait til the series ends.
Box of 20
Wow... The debates rage on....The entire spectrum of collecting has been covered over this 2019 ERP....Even the myth of aging collectors/no young collectors - which has been a recurring theme for as long as I can remember - way before computers and coin forums. I will just enjoy my '95W, and my ERP when/if I get one....
Meanwhile I have many things to enjoy today...Cheers, RickO
I think ultimately the 95-W will remain the king. Calling the 2019-S the king with a mintage of a lousy 100+ less coins is as much a gimmick as the coin itself. 95-W is a standard proof not a gimmicky reverse proof with barber pole stripes on the device. 95-W is scarce in 70, 2019-S will mostly grade 70. Time will tell but I'm reliving Chicago release labels on the gold Kennedy. I'm not mad because I didn't get one because I did.
I have a spare 95W 69 in a blue plastic box somewhere. I think I will go hunt it down today as the surge in new silver eagle collectors may want the thing after all.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
You have, by far, the best attitude on the Forum. There should be some honorific title we can bestow upon you!
Some truth here. The only thing I might question is that the 2019 will "mostly grade 70". We don't know that yet. They have had trouble with the reverse proofs in the past that limited the 70 yield.
"The 95W coin is a high ranking coin in the Top 100 Modern set that I do collect and, of course, a modern key."
This crazy 2019-S ERP is finally a good excuse to get the Top 100 Modern coin set revised.
Drop the 1964-D Peace $1, MS, the
1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent, MS, and the
2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Dollar, PR which were never really collectable in the first place.
Add the 2019-S ERP and a couple more. Maybe make a post of what other 2 should be included and have a poll?
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Look at the brighter side. Coin collecting is a dying hobby. And how many new collector and flipper are willing to pay a few thousands dollars for a 95 W? However if they were lucky enough to purchase a 2019-S ERP at $70, the possibilities to our hobby would be endless.
Why would they have the illegal 1964-D Peace $ and 1974 Lincoln Cent in there?
I figured it was fiendishly designed so Mitch couldn't ever collect a complete set..
edited to say I think it was the book which documented 100 top modern coins that started this Registry set idea.
Even from the start I never thought a Registry set should include illegal, or require unique, single minted coins.
Of course they are real history and should be referenced and mentioned in the set description for completeness, but not required as part of the registry set to actually collect.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
What was the original issue price of the 1995-W Silver Eagle?
It was part of a 4 coin gold set
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
Because they're considered two of the top 100 coins of all time.
peacockcoins
True part of the 4 coin gold set that year at no extra cost. Believe it or not sets sold without the 95-W ASE. buyers wanted matched sets with other years bought. Talk about kicking yourself in the ( l )
Ridiculous. They are a never issued coin and a pattern. Are there other pattern coins on the list? What about the glass WWII cents?
I cannot see any downside. Some lucky folks spent about $70 to buy a low mintage "key" worth a lot more than they paid! .
If you read the comment under my Top 100 Modern Set, you will see that DH agreed to remove the (3) illegal to own coins from the set (even stating the date when they would be removed), but they never were. Of course, they should be. The Gold or silver curved baseball coin deserves to be included in the set as does this 2019-S silver eagle without question. Other coins need replacing as well - is there even 1 person out there that believes the Margaret Taylor coin still deserves to be included in the Top 100 set! Lol.
Anyway this is OT, but should certainly be addressed in 2020.
Wondercoin
Everyone knew the 1995-W would be a key. The announced mintage limit was 45,000, and many unhappy collectors were shut out because they couldn't afford the gold set it came in. That's why it didn't sell out despite being available from the Mint for several months.
Like the 2019-S, the 1995-W itself was considered a "manufactured rarity." Many collectors stopped collecting silver eagles because of this coin.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Overdate... yes and no.
manufactured rarity if you look at it from a socioeconomic perspective perhaps.
That is far different than the vast majority of buyers not being able to even get their orders through at the Mint who wanted a coin. And the mint producing too few on purpose for whatever reason they decided to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Nevertheless, the "manufactured rarities" ARE PART OF THE SET. Without them, any SE set is incomplete and what folks who collect these decide to do does not change anything. LOL, it's a cruel, cruel, world.
Depends on the "set" you are collecting. Many people collect only bullion coins. Fewer collect regular proofs. Fewer still collect burnished, reverse proofs and "enhanced" reverse proofs. Basically, only those who collect every date, mint mark and variation will need this coin to complete their sets.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I'm looking at the 1995-W as a "manufactured rarity" from the perspective of a collector who was present for both occasions. The announced limit of 45,000 coins, far below the mintage of any other proofs, automatically put the 1995-W in that category. The Mint produced "too few on purpose" back then also, as there was known existing demand for several hundred thousand proofs for each date/mintmark. The average collector was shut out both times, the first because of affordability and the second because of the way orders were processed.
If the Mint, instead, had included the 2019-S ERP in this year's gold eagle proof set (current price $3,385) with an announced mintage limit of 30,000, it would not have sold out nearly as fast, and might not have sold out at all. And the coin would still have been out of reach for the average silver eagle collector.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
If you look at the mintages relative to the baseline proof sales in 1995, the 30,000 mintage is relatively higher than the 45,000 max in 1995.
Overdate. Fair point!
Wondercoin
Interesting thread. I like the design of the SAE and I'm in favor of US mint issued silver bullion. Beyond stacking silver, I can't understand those who see it as a collectible series. The milk spots alone would drive me nuts and it's not meant for commerce anyhow. Contrived rarities and special finishes are a bit gimmicky for me too..... for instance I'd never consider a set of Lib nickels incomplete if it lacked only the 1913.
Mitch is certainly one of the experts in the world of modern collecting, so predicting where prices go from here is something about which I'm totally ignorant. The idea of sitting on a whole stack of 95-W coins is something that would scare me to death, but Mitch is in a better place to assess that risk than I am. 30,000 is the opposite of rare and I'd be surprised to see interest and prices stay where they are now. Finally, I'm absolutely opposed to the government acting like they're running a business, catering to certain interests and ignoring others. As a whole, government forgets who they work for and who pays their salaries.
That's what I said. Just like a "short set of Walkers" is a "set" but it is not a complete set! No 1995 or 2019 and you don't have a complete set of SE. While an individual can decide what constitutes their personal set of coins - MY PERSONAL SET of SE consists of specimens with a date ending in:
8
So far, it is a complete set. LOL! Get my point now?
I love these threads! I can step away for five minutes or 55 minutes or five hours and I will come back and there will be plenty to read. Thank you all....
Hey, if you want to see your single post thread disappear quickly, just post an inappropriate question about the ATS grading company. C’mon, now.
It was bonus in the 10th anniversary gold eagle set, which was $999.
A regular P-Mint ASE was $23. (Silver spot was about $5.50),
It's been an exciting week and a half here at the CU.
All we need now is a price drop so that all the hoarders panic, all the curmudgeons can say "I told you so", and the board will light up with another 10,000 posts!