@keets said: Looking again at the quote from Mr. Hall...........................
Mark, I think if there were an over/under estimation by HRH it probably isn't the 100-200 really nice toners he seems to settle on, it's more likely the number of coins, his extimate being 10 million. I will assume that he wasn't saying he had searched that many coins in bags, but that many coins overall that he had looked at.
seen another way, 10 million coins is 10,000 bags of 1,000 coins each --- or --- one bag of Dollars every day for 27 years!!!
How many hours per day did you allot to him for going through the bags and did you count holidays?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
We know CC dollars still in GSA cases or slabbed as GSA's are original (Not gassed?) so that may give an indication of the % of toned coins possible in a bag. True, Peace dollars had less time to tone.
I don't recall seeing a toned peace dollar that was not in an album and NONE were rainbows.
I've spoken with several admitted coin doctors. IMHO, any one who thinks about it can figure how to tone a coin at an accelerated rate and have it look natural (I easily guessed the basic and very obvious technique but I don't care to know the chemicals as it would be too tempting - $$ LOL!)
Random thoughts
I remember recently finding
Wayne Miller’s Morgan and Peace Dollar textbook at the local libraries
used book sale. It was only $3 so
I bought it.
I remember in the (Eric) Newman -Green holdings there was a toned 1921 Peace dollar. I would consider that coin NT NGC 66
Ditto ORIFDOC’S Ladies of Peace
1921 PCGS MS 66 CAC
I thought sometime in the past someone posted a photo of a somewhat rainbow toned( Obv)
1923 D PCGS MS 66 CAC dollar that HRH considered to be
one of the finest toned Peace dollars in existence
@keets said: Looking again at the quote from Mr. Hall...........................
Mark, I think if there were an over/under estimation by HRH it probably isn't the 100-200 really nice toners he seems to settle on, it's more likely the number of coins, his extimate being 10 million. I will assume that he wasn't saying he had searched that many coins in bags, but that many coins overall that he had looked at.
seen another way, 10 million coins is 10,000 bags of 1,000 coins each --- or --- one bag of Dollars every day for 27 years!!!
How many hours per day did you allot to him for going through the bags and did you count holidays?
That recalls a humorous story from decades ago. I don't remember the names.
There was a discussion (Letter to the Editor) about "slider" AU coins being graded Unc. The writer believed that the graders were not spending enough time examining each coin. A dealer replied that he had personally examined millions of coins and could go through a roll of Morgan's in a short amount of time - 15 to 20 seconds ? An issue or two later, a mathematician (?) collector wrote in that the dealer would have needed to grade
"X" (a hundred or so) coins a minute, 24 hours a day, for "X" number of years (several decades) in order to examine just one million coins! Additionally, he stated that it would also be impossible to grade them correctly (at the time only 60, 63, and 65 existed for MS).
I still laugh at all the well-known numismatic experts of today when they post how many coins they have examined in their career. Trust me when I write that there is a HUGE difference between examining a coin for one minute compared to less than 10 seconds. The proof is out there.
@keets said: Looking again at the quote from Mr. Hall...........................
Mark, I think if there were an over/under estimation by HRH it probably isn't the 100-200 really nice toners he seems to settle on, it's more likely the number of coins, his extimate being 10 million. I will assume that he wasn't saying he had searched that many coins in bags, but that many coins overall that he had looked at.
seen another way, 10 million coins is 10,000 bags of 1,000 coins each --- or --- one bag of Dollars every day for 27 years!!!
How many hours per day did you allot to him for going through the bags and did you count holidays?
That recalls a humorous story from decades ago. I don't remember the names.
There was a discussion (Letter to the Editor) about "slider" AU coins being graded Unc. The writer believed that the graders were not spending enough time examining each coin. A dealer replied that he had personally examined millions of coins and could go through a roll of Morgan's in a short amount of time - 15 to 20 seconds ? An issue or two later, a mathematician (?) collector wrote in that the dealer would have needed to grade
"X" (a hundred or so) coins a minute, 24 hours a day, for "X" number of years (several decades) in order to examine just one million coins! Additionally, he stated that it would also be impossible to grade them correctly (at the time only 60, 63, and 65 existed for MS).
I still laugh at all the well-known numismatic experts of today when they post how many coins they have examined in their career. Trust me when I write that there is a HUGE difference between examining a coin for one minute compared to less than 10 seconds. The proof is out there.
5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime
Description
After a review in Billboard's May 12 issue praising its "cheerfully antisocial lyrics," the song debuted at #82 in the Hot 100 on the week-ending May 19, 1973.[1] The lyrics to this song on There Goes Rhymin' Simon differed in wording from those on The Concert in Central Park (1982) and Paul Simon's Concert in the Park, August 15, 1991 albums. The former (the album) said, "...everything looks worse in black and white," but the latter (the concerts) said, "...everything looks better in black and white." While it might be easy to read into the change in lyrics, Simon said, "I can't remember which way I originally wrote it – 'better' or 'worse' – but I always change it....'Kodachrome' was a song that was originally called 'Goin' Home.'"[2]
But the real significance was that Kodachrome film gave unrealistic colour saturation. Pictures taken on a dull day looked as if they were taken on a sunny day. (To correct this, serious photographers would use a Wratten 2b UV filter to normalize the images).[3][4]
Development
In an interview conducted in November 2008, Simon said that what he had in mind when writing the song was to call it "Going Home". However, finding this would have been "too conventional", he came up with "Kodachrome", because of its similar sound and larger innovative potential. He also refers to its first line as the "most interesting" part of the song.[5]
Chart performance
Four weeks after its debut on the Hot 100, the song moved to #9, sandwiched ahead of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Ole Oak Tree" by Dawn featuring Tony Orlando and behind May 19, 1973, Hot 100 top debut (#59) "Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)" by George Harrison;[6]
Two weeks later "Kodachrome" peaked at #2 on the Billboard Hot 100[7], behind Will It Go Round in Circles by Billy Preston.[8] It peaked at #2 the Billboard adult contemporary chart, as well.[9] In the United Kingdom, the song was marketed as the B-side to "Take Me to the Mardi Gras" (CBS 1578).[10] The song was also banned by the Federation of (Australian) Radio Broadcasters.[11]
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
A nice golden tone is very natural for a Peace dollar, but sadly most people prefer white and gorgeous coins like the 1925 above end up getting dipped.
@jmlanzaf said: "5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime."
Sounds really feasible to anyone without experience. Figures lie.
Any grading experts reading this? It's your chance to brag. I would like to hear from the person who could grade 2400 coins a day (Keeping at least a 75% agreement rate with the finalizer.) for a typical work week. LOL. Go figure some more.
Oh, and before I get this nonsense...That's only five monster boxes of Silver Eagles in a day!" Easy right?
ROTFL, perhaps that's why a very large % of MS/PR-70's ARE NOT!
@santinidollar said:
I once thought Peace dollars must be immune to toning. Seriously, when I started collecting them five years ago, I almost never ran across one.
At one time, we were told that toned Peace dollars did not exist! But I've talked to folks who got toned Peace dollars in a bag stored at the beach. He said they did not look lie the ones that toned in holders.
it is peculiar to me that this same topic, like many others, keeps cycling through the forum with regularity. for the most part, the same members will post what they have heard, read and experienced first hand over the years, while additional members post reasons why that should be doubted.
it's too bad the forum software doesn't have a searchable database linked to archived threads. that way a question could be asked, links to old threads attained and no more new ones added.
A long time ago I bought a roll of 1926 peace dollars from someone who had a mint bag. They were priced at a small premium to melt, and one of many randomly assembled rolls, no picking or choosing.
The coins were clearly original from the bag, many were from the same die pair, and all were clearly Uncirculated.
There was a nice assortment; most were white, and a couple were gems, but a couple others had one-sided, mostly monochromic toning which was rather dull and grey.. i presume these were flat against the bag for some time.
A couple had very attractive, yet very subtle rainbows, in bands that covered perhaps a quarter of one side, the balance of the coin white. This toning was hard to see in direct light but popped quite well wint tilted at just the right angle. I assume these coins rested with an edge touching the bag.
I still have the roll deep in the vault, and havent looked in many years.
@keets said:
it is peculiar to me that this same topic, like many others, keeps cycling through the forum with regularity. for the most part, the same members will post what they have heard, read and experienced first hand over the years, while additional members post reasons why that should be doubted.
it's too bad the forum software doesn't have a searchable database linked to archived threads. that way a question could be asked, links to old threads attained and no more new ones added.
I agree, it's too bad there is not one source. New folks join every day and some information needs to be updated as we all become more knowledgeable. Unfortunately, there are some questions that still do not have satisfactory answers and many of the folks who could help nail down the "correct" answer cannot be bothered to post on these forums.
Anyway, there ARE several indisputable and factual posts about Peace dollars in this discussion. For example:
At one time in the past rainbow toned peace dollars were very rarely seen!
Another indisputable fact is that rainbow toned Peace dollars are around in large numbers today.
For many years folks have been artificially (speeding up) the colorful oxidation process occurring to coins.
Naturally toned (over time and unintentional/unaided by man) Peace dollars exist.
I'm sure I've left out a few others. Perhaps others can add to this list.
@Baley said:
A long time ago I bought a roll of 1926 peace dollars from someone who had a mint bag. They were priced at a small premium to melt, and one of many randomly assembled rolls, no picking or choosing.
The coins were clearly original from the bag, many were from the same die pair, and all were clearly Uncirculated.
There was a nice assortment; most were white, and a couple were gems, but a couple others had one-sided, mostly monochromic toning which was rather dull and grey.. i presume these were flat against the bag for some time.
A couple had very attractive, yet very subtle rainbows, in bands that covered perhaps a quarter of one side, the balance of the coin white. This toning was hard to see in direct light but popped quite well wint tilted at just the right angle. I assume these coins rested with an edge touching the bag.
I still have the roll deep in the vault, and havent looked in many years.
@RogerB said:
Nice example but hardly representative. Conditions for extensive Peace dollar toning did not exist in mint vaults. If you look at old articles on the subject, you'll see that Peace dollars rarely had more than a dull brown tarnish.
Hall's remark was truthful, not naive.
The ideal conditions for extensive Peace Dollar toning rarely existed, but saying that they did not exist at all is not accurate. This one looks unquestionably original to me and looks like many of the more common bag toned Morgan Dollars (from eBay):
Here's one I have that has been in one of those bank holders. Not a monster by any means, but attractive to me. I know this probably isn't for everyone, but it does come across as NT.
@jmlanzaf said: "5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime."
Sounds really feasible to anyone without experience. Figures lie.
Any grading experts reading this? It's your chance to brag. I would like to hear from the person who could grade 2400 coins a day (Keeping at least a 75% agreement rate with the finalizer.) for a typical work week. LOL. Go figure some more.
Oh, and before I get this nonsense...That's only five monster boxes of Silver Eagles in a day!" Easy right?
ROTFL, perhaps that's why a very large % of MS/PR-70's ARE NOT!
I was just correcting your math, not suggesting it was a good idea
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
Here's one I have that has been in one of those bank holders. Not a monster by any means, but attractive to me. I know this probably isn't for everyone, but it does come across as NT.
Randy Campbell told me about these specific "Bank" coins today!
@jmlanzaf said: "5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime."
Sounds really feasible to anyone without experience. Figures lie.
Any grading experts reading this? It's your chance to brag. I would like to hear from the person who could grade 2400 coins a day (Keeping at least a 75% agreement rate with the finalizer.) for a typical work week. LOL. Go figure some more.
Oh, and before I get this nonsense...That's only five monster boxes of Silver Eagles in a day!" Easy right?
ROTFL, perhaps that's why a very large % of MS/PR-70's ARE NOT!
I was just correcting your math, not suggesting it was a good idea
Thanks! It was not my math. It was my reporting error.
Unfortunately, I don't have the exact numbers used in the debate and reply. The dealer wrote he had examined millions of coins. The mathematician (?) replied that was humanly impossible and explained why. The "gist" of the story remains unchanged.
PS Most of us have no idea what a "million" of anything actually encompasses.
I feel like I authenticated/graded/translated/and added new catalog numbers to a million Russian coins/medals today. The actual number was a hundred and sixty and it took forever!
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
Here's one I have that has been in one of those bank holders. Not a monster by any means, but attractive to me. I know this probably isn't for everyone, but it does come across as NT.
Scattered splashes of melted crayon rainbow colors adorn the lustrous surfaces. Here is a thorn in the side of those who claim that colorful Peace dollars must be AT.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That so many have magically appeared during the past decade, is unexpected - and suspicious.
Wayne Miller explains why Peace Dollars didn't tone like Morgan Dollars while stored in mint bags.
You will not see any rainbow-toned Peace Dollars in Miller's book, Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook.. You will see some wildly toned Morgan dollars, described by Miller as "the most beautifully toned dollars in existence."
Definitely suspicious. Back in the day at coin shows one might see some Peace dollars with a light golden natural appearing hue but rainbow colors?....no.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 said: That so many have magically appeared during the past decade, is unexpected - and suspicious.
Wayne Miller explains why Peace Dollars didn't tone like Morgan Dollars while stored in mint bags.
You will not see any rainbow-toned Peace Dollars in Miller's book, Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook.. You will see some wildly toned Morgan dollars, described by Miller as "the most beautifully toned dollars in existence."
Definitely suspicious. Back in the day at coin shows one might see some Peace dollars with a light golden natural appearing hue but rainbow colors?....no.
So how did he explain the difference? Was it the much touted hydrochloric acid washing of the planchets to clean them? That has also been advanced as an explanation for why 1921 Morgans don't produce nice toners like the earlier year coins did.
Miller p 38
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars, and very seldom show bright, vivid
colorations. This is due to the following factors: First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process. Being minted much more recently , Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the
sulfur in the bags in which they were stored. Second, there is some
evidence that the acid bath into
which the planchets were plunged
after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars, in order to maximize
the frosty whiteness of the planchets. This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet
metal with sulfur or oxygen, thus regarding the toning process.
p 43
One puff of cigarette smoke , exhaled at close proximity to a silver dollar will produce a light
brown coloration, which deepens
with each succeeding puff.
So how did he explain the difference? Was it the much touted hydrochloric acid washing of the planchets to clean them? That has also been advanced as an explanation for why 1921 Morgans don't produce nice toners like the earlier year coins did.
"Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars, and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations. This is due to the following factors: First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process. Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored. Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars, in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets. This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen, thus retarding the toning process."
The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller, p. 38
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@CaptainBlunt said:
Miller p 38
One puff of cigarette smoke , exhaled at close proximity to a silver dollar will produce a light
brown coloration, which deepens
with each succeeding puff.
I'd think that coloration is more than toning. Have you ever cleaned the inside of the windshield of a car belonging to someone who smokes?
Scattered splashes of melted crayon rainbow colors adorn the lustrous surfaces. Here is a thorn in the side of those who claim that colorful Peace dollars must be AT.😉
Because no one could ever AT a coin and then stick it into an old holder?
Scattered splashes of melted crayon rainbow colors adorn the lustrous surfaces. Here is a thorn in the side of those who claim that colorful Peace dollars must be AT.😉
Because no one could ever AT a coin and then stick it into an old holder?
Do you really think that’s what happened in this case?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Scattered splashes of melted crayon rainbow colors adorn the lustrous surfaces. Here is a thorn in the side of those who claim that colorful Peace dollars must be AT.😉
Because no one could ever AT a coin and then stick it into an old holder?
Do you really think that’s what happened in this case?
AT/NT is a religious argument. People will stick to their faith no matter what.
Scattered splashes of melted crayon rainbow colors adorn the lustrous surfaces. Here is a thorn in the side of those who claim that colorful Peace dollars must be AT.😉
Because no one could ever AT a coin and then stick it into an old holder?
Do you really think that’s what happened in this case?
Seems there will likely never be an answer to Boosbri's question that will satisfy everyone. I was unable to attend the ANA so I obviously did not see the coins. Toning and whether it is NT or AT is not always as black and white as we would like to assume. With respect to Peace Dollars, I can say that I clearly do not recall seeing many that have rainbow toning or just eye popping color. How and where coins are stored have so much to do with it. And there is likely a small surviving population that few collectors are able to see. So it is probable that when certain types of coins start fetching moon money or when they are found, the interest and perceived demand will bring more out from unanticipated sources. For a moment think of the commems that were housed in Wayte Raymond albums. I have personally seen some amazing Mercury Dimes pulled out of the inexpensive Whitman folders that graded 66 and above. At times it seems to the majority here that it is easier to just write and comment about what is not possible instead of what is possible.
So part of the issue with the question is perception along with personal experience with influences what is and is not possible in numismatics. There are coins still waiting to be found. And I believe this based on what I have personally experienced. And with Peace Dollars, considering the quantity struck and those that survive, there are likely some colorful examples...just not in the same quality or numbers as Morgans.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@jmlanzaf said: "5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime."
Sounds really feasible to anyone without experience. Figures lie.
Any grading experts reading this? It's your chance to brag. I would like to hear from the person who could grade 2400 coins a day (Keeping at least a 75% agreement rate with the finalizer.) for a typical work week. LOL. Go figure some more.
Oh, and before I get this nonsense...That's only five monster boxes of Silver Eagles in a day!" Easy right?
ROTFL, perhaps that's why a very large % of MS/PR-70's ARE NOT!
PS Most of us have no idea what a "million" of anything actually encompasses.
I feel like I authenticated/graded/translated/and added new catalog numbers to a million Russian coins/medals today. The actual number was a hundred and sixty and it took forever!
Given that CAC had viewed a million coins and JA is the only finalyzer, JA must have done 1 million coins at CAC alone.
Looks like CaptainBlunt beat me to the punch on the Miller quote re: toning of Peace dollars.Didn't see that or I wouldn't have repeat posted the answer to the question directed at me by BAJJERFAN.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@jmlanzaf said: "5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime."
Sounds really feasible to anyone without experience. Figures lie.
Any grading experts reading this? It's your chance to brag. I would like to hear from the person who could grade 2400 coins a day (Keeping at least a 75% agreement rate with the finalizer.) for a typical work week. LOL. Go figure some more.
Oh, and before I get this nonsense...That's only five monster boxes of Silver Eagles in a day!" Easy right?
ROTFL, perhaps that's why a very large % of MS/PR-70's ARE NOT!
PS Most of us have no idea what a "million" of anything actually encompasses.
I feel like I authenticated/graded/translated/and added new catalog numbers to a million Russian coins/medals today. The actual number was a hundred and sixty and it took forever!
Given that CAC had viewed a million coins and JA is the only finalyzer, JA must have done 1 million coins at CAC alone.
Then the mathematician must be wrong. The alternative would be unthinkable!
Too many posts for me to read them all and avoid redundancy, but feet like adding a couple of comments.
First, David Hall admitted to a bias and, if you read his comment carefully, he did not absolutely rule out attractively-toned Peace Dollars.
Second, as an avid collector in the 60's and 70's I have the same bias. At the time I was putting together my first type set and was trying to put together a nice set of attractively-matched silver. I looked far and wide for an attractively toned PD and came up blank. I ended up buying a white PD.
Third, notwithstanding my own bias, I can accept that some coins have attractively toned over the last 50 years, depending on how they were stored. Were I an expert I would look for reasonable explanations of how some of the more spectacular examples might have occurred. Absent such input from an expert and not being one I would pass.
The grouping of Peace toners were in Ron Sirna’s case. I believe he was sharing a table with Greg Allen. I really didn’t take notice at the time
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@metalmeister said:
Never saw rainbow Peace dollars 30 years ago. Only subtle brown "tarnish" from age.
Did you (or others) see rainbow Morgans 60+ years ago? My point is that Peace Dollars haven’t had nearly as long to tone, either in or out of bags. Additionally, because of the internet, we see many things now that were there, all along, but unknown to us previously.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@RogerB said:
Nice example but hardly representative. Conditions for extensive Peace dollar toning did not exist in mint vaults. If you look at old articles on the subject, you'll see that Peace dollars rarely had more than a dull brown tarnish.
Hall's remark was truthful, not naive.
The ideal conditions for extensive Peace Dollar toning rarely existed, but saying that they did not exist at all is not accurate. This one looks unquestionably original to me and looks like many of the more common bag toned Morgan Dollars (from eBay):
Here is another:
Thanks for showing that photo. My guess is that if that coin (like most all rainbow toned coins) were tilted another way the impressive toning would look less stunning. Seems toned coins always look better in photos than in real life unless they are tilted just the right way to match the photographed view. Maybe having to tilt the coin to just the right angle under the right light is a price many are willing to pay?
I have little doubt that some, but relatively few, Peace dollars have toned since the bag releases 50-60 years ago and one of the major sources for this toning are paper rolls. I also have had the benefit of examining tens of thousands (not millions) of silver dollars from the Treasury releases and can confirm the scarcity of toned Peace dollars compared to Morgans. However, when the bags were broken down into rolls for storage, the ones stored in paper (particularly the "shotgun style" bank wrapped rolls), one-sided toning on the end coins was common, for both Morgans and Peace dollars. That's two toned coins per roll, or 10%. However, more of these rolls seemed to have gone into plastic than paper when the bags were broken.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
Comments
How many hours per day did you allot to him for going through the bags and did you count holidays?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here are some thoughts to discuss:
Is a "fresh bag sealed?
We know CC dollars still in GSA cases or slabbed as GSA's are original (Not gassed?) so that may give an indication of the % of toned coins possible in a bag. True, Peace dollars had less time to tone.
I don't recall seeing a toned peace dollar that was not in an album and NONE were rainbows.
I've spoken with several admitted coin doctors. IMHO, any one who thinks about it can figure how to tone a coin at an accelerated rate and have it look natural (I easily guessed the basic and very obvious technique
but I don't care to know the chemicals as it would be too tempting - $$ LOL!) 
Random thoughts
I remember recently finding
Wayne Miller’s Morgan and Peace Dollar textbook at the local libraries
used book sale. It was only $3 so
I bought it.
I remember in the (Eric) Newman -Green holdings there was a toned 1921 Peace dollar. I would consider that coin NT NGC 66
Ditto ORIFDOC’S Ladies of Peace
1921 PCGS MS 66 CAC
I thought sometime in the past someone posted a photo of a somewhat rainbow toned( Obv)
1923 D PCGS MS 66 CAC dollar that HRH considered to be
one of the finest toned Peace dollars in existence
I saved the photo
I just don’t post them
To think that the large premiums being paid for colorful tarnish today is not contributing to the proliferation of AT coins is naive. Cheers, RickO
That recalls a humorous story from decades ago. I don't remember the names.
There was a discussion (Letter to the Editor) about "slider" AU coins being graded Unc. The writer believed that the graders were not spending enough time examining each coin. A dealer replied that he had personally examined millions of coins and could go through a roll of Morgan's in a short amount of time - 15 to 20 seconds ? An issue or two later, a mathematician (?) collector wrote in that the dealer would have needed to grade
"X" (a hundred or so) coins a minute, 24 hours a day, for "X" number of years (several decades) in order to examine just one million coins! Additionally, he stated that it would also be impossible to grade them correctly (at the time only 60, 63, and 65 existed for MS).
I still laugh at all the well-known numismatic experts of today when they post how many coins they have examined in their career. Trust me
when I write that there is a HUGE difference between examining a coin for one minute compared to less than 10 seconds. 
The proof is out there. 
5 coins per minute is 300 coins per hour. A work year is 2000 hours. That's 600k per year. You would examine a million coins in less than 2 years without working any overtime
I once thought Peace dollars must be immune to toning. Seriously, when I started collecting them five years ago, I almost never ran across one.
I like mine mono chromed!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Am now thinking of Paul Simon!
From Wikipedia:
Description
After a review in Billboard's May 12 issue praising its "cheerfully antisocial lyrics," the song debuted at #82 in the Hot 100 on the week-ending May 19, 1973.[1] The lyrics to this song on There Goes Rhymin' Simon differed in wording from those on The Concert in Central Park (1982) and Paul Simon's Concert in the Park, August 15, 1991 albums. The former (the album) said, "...everything looks worse in black and white," but the latter (the concerts) said, "...everything looks better in black and white." While it might be easy to read into the change in lyrics, Simon said, "I can't remember which way I originally wrote it – 'better' or 'worse' – but I always change it....'Kodachrome' was a song that was originally called 'Goin' Home.'"[2]
But the real significance was that Kodachrome film gave unrealistic colour saturation. Pictures taken on a dull day looked as if they were taken on a sunny day. (To correct this, serious photographers would use a Wratten 2b UV filter to normalize the images).[3][4]
Development
In an interview conducted in November 2008, Simon said that what he had in mind when writing the song was to call it "Going Home". However, finding this would have been "too conventional", he came up with "Kodachrome", because of its similar sound and larger innovative potential. He also refers to its first line as the "most interesting" part of the song.[5]
Chart performance
Four weeks after its debut on the Hot 100, the song moved to #9, sandwiched ahead of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Ole Oak Tree" by Dawn featuring Tony Orlando and behind May 19, 1973, Hot 100 top debut (#59) "Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)" by George Harrison;[6]
Two weeks later "Kodachrome" peaked at #2 on the Billboard Hot 100[7], behind Will It Go Round in Circles by Billy Preston.[8] It peaked at #2 the Billboard adult contemporary chart, as well.[9] In the United Kingdom, the song was marketed as the B-side to "Take Me to the Mardi Gras" (CBS 1578).[10] The song was also banned by the Federation of (Australian) Radio Broadcasters.[11]
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
A nice golden tone is very natural for a Peace dollar, but sadly most people prefer white and gorgeous coins like the 1925 above end up getting dipped.
That photo looks familiar. 🤔
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sounds really feasible to anyone without experience. Figures lie.
Any grading experts reading this? It's your chance to brag. I would like to hear from the person who could grade 2400 coins a day (Keeping at least a 75% agreement rate with the finalizer.) for a typical work week. LOL. Go figure some more.
Oh, and before I get this nonsense...That's only five monster boxes of Silver Eagles in a day!" Easy right?
ROTFL, perhaps that's why a very large % of MS/PR-70's ARE NOT!
At one time, we were told that toned Peace dollars did not exist! But I've talked to folks who got toned Peace dollars in a bag stored at the beach. He said they did not look lie the ones that toned in holders.
it is peculiar to me that this same topic, like many others, keeps cycling through the forum with regularity. for the most part, the same members will post what they have heard, read and experienced first hand over the years, while additional members post reasons why that should be doubted.
it's too bad the forum software doesn't have a searchable database linked to archived threads. that way a question could be asked, links to old threads attained and no more new ones added.
A long time ago I bought a roll of 1926 peace dollars from someone who had a mint bag. They were priced at a small premium to melt, and one of many randomly assembled rolls, no picking or choosing.
The coins were clearly original from the bag, many were from the same die pair, and all were clearly Uncirculated.
There was a nice assortment; most were white, and a couple were gems, but a couple others had one-sided, mostly monochromic toning which was rather dull and grey.. i presume these were flat against the bag for some time.
A couple had very attractive, yet very subtle rainbows, in bands that covered perhaps a quarter of one side, the balance of the coin white. This toning was hard to see in direct light but popped quite well wint tilted at just the right angle. I assume these coins rested with an edge touching the bag.
I still have the roll deep in the vault, and havent looked in many years.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley my type example is like one of your descriptions.
Subtle rainbow, quarter of one side....
Nothing about raises any concerns for me but it isn't a full throttle complete toner like being discussed.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I agree, it's too bad there is not one source. New folks join every day and some information needs to be updated as we all become more knowledgeable. Unfortunately, there are some questions that still do not have satisfactory answers and many of the folks who could help nail down the "correct" answer cannot be bothered to post on these forums.
Anyway, there ARE several indisputable and factual posts about Peace dollars in this discussion. For example:
I'm sure I've left out a few others.
Perhaps others can add to this list.
PLEASE LOOK! Photos?
I had photos. Had them uploaded and indexed and findable here in the CU.
Then, they "upgraded" the software and we lost the index box each of us had for all our pics
I lost access to hundreds of images, and the many hours of work they took to produce.
They still 'in there', but i can't find them
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If the Search function worked, i could find them that way.. but it was "updated" too and is now practically useless
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The ideal conditions for extensive Peace Dollar toning rarely existed, but saying that they did not exist at all is not accurate. This one looks unquestionably original to me and looks like many of the more common bag toned Morgan Dollars (from eBay):
Here is another:
Here's one I have that has been in one of those bank holders. Not a monster by any means, but attractive to me. I know this probably isn't for everyone, but it does come across as NT.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I was just correcting your math, not suggesting it was a good idea
Randy Campbell told me about these specific "Bank" coins today!
Thanks! It was not my math. It was my reporting error.
Unfortunately, I don't have the exact numbers used in the debate and reply. The dealer wrote he had examined millions of coins. The mathematician (?) replied that was humanly impossible and explained why. The "gist" of the story remains unchanged.
PS Most of us have no idea what a "million" of anything actually encompasses.
I feel like I authenticated/graded/translated/and added new catalog numbers to a million Russian coins/medals today. The actual number was a hundred and sixty and it took forever!
Scattered splashes of melted crayon rainbow colors adorn the lustrous surfaces. Here is a thorn in the side of those who claim that colorful Peace dollars must be AT.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That so many have magically appeared during the past decade, is unexpected - and suspicious.
Wayne Miller explains why Peace Dollars didn't tone like Morgan Dollars while stored in mint bags.
You will not see any rainbow-toned Peace Dollars in Miller's book, Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook.. You will see some wildly toned Morgan dollars, described by Miller as "the most beautifully toned dollars in existence."
Definitely suspicious. Back in the day at coin shows one might see some Peace dollars with a light golden natural appearing hue but rainbow colors?....no.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
So how did he explain the difference? Was it the much touted hydrochloric acid washing of the planchets to clean them? That has also been advanced as an explanation for why 1921 Morgans don't produce nice toners like the earlier year coins did.
Miller p 38
Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars, and very seldom show bright, vivid
colorations. This is due to the following factors: First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process. Being minted much more recently , Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the
sulfur in the bags in which they were stored. Second, there is some
evidence that the acid bath into
which the planchets were plunged
after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars, in order to maximize
the frosty whiteness of the planchets. This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet
metal with sulfur or oxygen, thus regarding the toning process.
p 43
One puff of cigarette smoke , exhaled at close proximity to a silver dollar will produce a light
brown coloration, which deepens
with each succeeding puff.
The dangers of second hand smoke
So how did he explain the difference? Was it the much touted hydrochloric acid washing of the planchets to clean them? That has also been advanced as an explanation for why 1921 Morgans don't produce nice toners like the earlier year coins did.
"Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars, and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations. This is due to the following factors: First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process. Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored. Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars, in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets. This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen, thus retarding the toning process."
The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller, p. 38
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Great minds and all that...
Smitten with DBLCs.
I'd think that coloration is more than toning. Have you ever cleaned the inside of the windshield of a car belonging to someone who smokes?
Because no one could ever AT a coin and then stick it into an old holder?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
.> @Baley said:
Do you really think that’s what happened in this case?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
AT/NT is a religious argument. People will stick to their faith no matter what.
No.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Seems there will likely never be an answer to Boosbri's question that will satisfy everyone. I was unable to attend the ANA so I obviously did not see the coins. Toning and whether it is NT or AT is not always as black and white as we would like to assume. With respect to Peace Dollars, I can say that I clearly do not recall seeing many that have rainbow toning or just eye popping color. How and where coins are stored have so much to do with it. And there is likely a small surviving population that few collectors are able to see. So it is probable that when certain types of coins start fetching moon money or when they are found, the interest and perceived demand will bring more out from unanticipated sources. For a moment think of the commems that were housed in Wayte Raymond albums. I have personally seen some amazing Mercury Dimes pulled out of the inexpensive Whitman folders that graded 66 and above. At times it seems to the majority here that it is easier to just write and comment about what is not possible instead of what is possible.
So part of the issue with the question is perception along with personal experience with influences what is and is not possible in numismatics. There are coins still waiting to be found. And I believe this based on what I have personally experienced. And with Peace Dollars, considering the quantity struck and those that survive, there are likely some colorful examples...just not in the same quality or numbers as Morgans.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Given that CAC had viewed a million coins and JA is the only finalyzer, JA must have done 1 million coins at CAC alone.
Looks like CaptainBlunt beat me to the punch on the Miller quote re: toning of Peace dollars.Didn't see that or I wouldn't have repeat posted the answer to the question directed at me by BAJJERFAN.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Then the mathematician must be wrong. The alternative would be unthinkable!
Never saw rainbow Peace dollars 30 years ago. Only subtle brown "tarnish" from age.
100% Positive BST transactions
Too many posts for me to read them all and avoid redundancy, but feet like adding a couple of comments.
First, David Hall admitted to a bias and, if you read his comment carefully, he did not absolutely rule out attractively-toned Peace Dollars.
Second, as an avid collector in the 60's and 70's I have the same bias. At the time I was putting together my first type set and was trying to put together a nice set of attractively-matched silver. I looked far and wide for an attractively toned PD and came up blank. I ended up buying a white PD.
Third, notwithstanding my own bias, I can accept that some coins have attractively toned over the last 50 years, depending on how they were stored. Were I an expert I would look for reasonable explanations of how some of the more spectacular examples might have occurred. Absent such input from an expert and not being one I would pass.
The grouping of Peace toners were in Ron Sirna’s case. I believe he was sharing a table with Greg Allen. I really didn’t take notice at the time
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Did you (or others) see rainbow Morgans 60+ years ago? My point is that Peace Dollars haven’t had nearly as long to tone, either in or out of bags. Additionally, because of the internet, we see many things now that were there, all along, but unknown to us previously.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks for showing that photo. My guess is that if that coin (like most all rainbow toned coins) were tilted another way the impressive toning would look less stunning. Seems toned coins always look better in photos than in real life unless they are tilted just the right way to match the photographed view. Maybe having to tilt the coin to just the right angle under the right light is a price many are willing to pay?
Anaconda used to call them "3 degree coins" in reference to narrow tilt angle window in which the toning is most vibrant.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I have little doubt that some, but relatively few, Peace dollars have toned since the bag releases 50-60 years ago and one of the major sources for this toning are paper rolls. I also have had the benefit of examining tens of thousands (not millions) of silver dollars from the Treasury releases and can confirm the scarcity of toned Peace dollars compared to Morgans. However, when the bags were broken down into rolls for storage, the ones stored in paper (particularly the "shotgun style" bank wrapped rolls), one-sided toning on the end coins was common, for both Morgans and Peace dollars. That's two toned coins per roll, or 10%. However, more of these rolls seemed to have gone into plastic than paper when the bags were broken.