@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
At the risk of being called combative, isn't that a different issue?
Not combative. I was showing for a SINGLE molecule, in this case SiO2, the color changes multiple times across the full spectrum just based on thickness. The same full color range can be made for many elements or molecules just by varying the thickness. This is why the coin changes color depending on the tilt.
This was in response to the statement that the color was due to the elemment, not the thickness.
And yes, if needed, I could deposition SiO2 onto silver, to create rainbows. As we all know, SiO2 is merely rock dust, totally natural. No nasty sulphur or chlorides.
Would you expect the thickness of the silver sulfide layer on a naturally toned coin to be materially different from that on a hastily toned coin from lanzaf's oven or would they be about the same?
It's due to the interaction of the light with the thickness of the layers; the degree to which light is slowed through the films' molecules; the prooerties of reflectivity vs absorption vs scattering etc. of the surface, the amount of constructive-destructive interference which shifts wavelengths, and several other characteristics.
Like most interesting phenomena, Toning on Coins is complicated, and doesn't lend itself to blanket, glib, or trite pronouncements.
But no doubt, more are produced every day, of varying quality on purpose because collectors like them and buy them.
Most monster peace dollars are simply done by the best artists.
I wish more posters would state their opinions as opinions, rather than facts. And unless you have first hand knowledge regarding the toning source for “most monster peace dollars”, you have no way of knowing whether they were done by “the best artists”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Besides sulfer, there are innumerable environmental elements and biological molecules that may be deposited on a coin over time (lol, or all at once) which alter tg he path of light and produce what we experience as color.
At the risk of being called combative, isn't that a different issue?
Not combative. I was showing for a SINGLE molecule, in this case SiO2, the color changes multiple times across the full spectrum just based on thickness. The same full color range can be made for many elements or molecules just by varying the thickness. This is why the coin changes color depending on the tilt.
This was in response to the statement that the color was due to the elemment, not the thickness.
And yes, if needed, I could deposition SiO2 onto silver, to create rainbows. As we all know, SiO2 is merely rock dust, totally natural. No nasty sulphur or chlorides.
Would you expect the thickness of the silver sulfide layer on a naturally toned coin to be materially different from that on a hastily toned coin from lanzaf's oven or would they be about the same?
Depends on the time of growth. In my oven it'll grow faster, but the deposition SHOULD (hard to say absolutely given different chemical environments, etc.) proceed in similar fashion: layers building on layers.
@Baley said:
Besides sulfer, there are innumerable environmental elements and biological molecules that may be deposited on a coin over time (lol, or all at once) which alter tg he path of light and produce what we experience as color.
Of course. You could paint them with enamel, for instance. But the coin doctors are trying to mimic actual toning, not create something easily detectable. That means oxides and sulfides, usually sulfides.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
Disagree.
Far too absolute to be always true.
Not really. I mean, obviously I could paint the coin with enamel or spray oil on it or do all kinds of funky things. BUT BUT BUT, remember the context: AT vs. NT on coins. The coin doctors are trying to mimic the natural behavior of coins, which is oxides and sulfides. They would not use other substances as they would be too easily detected as AT.
So, in this context, it is absolutely true which is why it is such a problem.
Next time I buy a Blast White roll of 1964 Washington quarters or Kennedy halves, maybe I'll tone some up for you. I scrapped all my silver recently and I don't have anything I want to play with right now.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
Ummm, that I disagree with. My big toe nail has no silver in it, so it is quite different at the "quantum level"...well, unless my kinky girlfriend painted my toe nails with silver nail polish...
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
On a more serious note: the "now what" is simply my discomfort with screams of AT vs. NT. The fact is, like it or not, there is "market acceptable" AT and, frankly, there is "market unacceptable" NT. Those coins that come back "questionable color" that were sitting in granddad's collection in a cardboard album for 100 years are probably "natural" but are being rejected as unacceptable. Similarly, masterfully AT coins with a hint of rainbow hues are being straight graded because they are "market acceptable" and undetectable as AT.
It is not exactly a deep point, but I think it is one worth making.
@Baley said:
LoL, alright buddy, you win.
Could discuss this at length here as a professional applied scientist of 30+ years, but I'd have to start charging you. 😎
Well, as a professional chemist of 30+ years, I'll just charge you back.
I have a coin purse NT that I am thinking of sending to grade. It might be the ugliest colored peace I have and I forget which forum member here sold it too me. It has promise I 🤔
@Baley said:
LoL, alright buddy, you win.
Could discuss this at length here as a professional applied scientist of 30+ years, but I'd have to start charging you. 😎
Well, as a professional chemist of 30+ years, I'll just charge you back.
I can have someone tell me for free that every single colorful coin in the universe is spectrochemically identical.
@No Headlights said:
An unscientific observation
For the really wildly toned dollars it seems to be predominantly obverse toned coins. Anyone agree?
Obverse bisecting rainbows of amber to pink to blue are common. Often the side with the most bagmarks is toned. Also common is the target tone in the same colors, and the "framing" of relief. Advanced students achieve reds and greens and dark purples and tighter, smoother bands and transitions. Mistake coins turn dark and are dipped, dulling the luster. Ever notice that most monster masterpieces are the common dates? 😉
The more I read threads like this I wonder if rainbow toning will be viewed as a fad that once brought value to coins but will be discounted at some point in the future.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
On a more serious note: the "now what" is simply my discomfort with screams of AT vs. NT. The fact is, like it or not, there is "market acceptable" AT and, frankly, there is "market unacceptable" NT. Those coins that come back "questionable color" that were sitting in granddad's collection in a cardboard album for 100 years are probably "natural" but are being rejected as unacceptable. Similarly, masterfully AT coins with a hint of rainbow hues are being straight graded because they are "market acceptable" and undetectable as AT.
It is not exactly a deep point, but I think it is one worth making.
This post, I couldn't agree with more. Very well said.
@No Headlights said:
An unscientific observation
For the really wildly toned dollars it seems to be predominantly obverse toned coins. Anyone agree?
Obverse bisecting rainbows of amber to pink to blue are common. Often the side with the most bagmarks is toned. Also common is the target tone in the same colors, and the "framing" of relief. Advanced students achieve reds and greens and dark purples and tighter, smoother bands and transitions. Mistake coins turn dark and are dipped, dulling the luster. Ever notice that most monster masterpieces are the common dates? 😉
May we please see one of the coins made by an "advanced student" that you write about?"
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
Ummm, that I disagree with. My big toe nail has no silver in it, so it is quite different at the "quantum level"...well, unless my kinky girlfriend painted my toe nails with silver nail polish...
Sub-atomic particles dont know if they are toe nails or silver dollars.
@ACop said: > @ACop said:
If someone has mastered the art of toning that they can make this coin, then why arent there 100 of these?
To play devil's advocate: The first coin would be hard to emulate IMHO and the limited increase in premium that these get unfortunately doesn't justify the extra effort when the Easy Bake versions sell well for a few hundred when straight graded and are easier to make.
@northcoin said:
The more I read threads like this I wonder if rainbow toning will be viewed as a fad that once brought value to coins but will be discounted at some point in the future.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
Ummm, that I disagree with. My big toe nail has no silver in it, so it is quite different at the "quantum level"...well, unless my kinky girlfriend painted my toe nails with silver nail polish...
Sub-atomic particles dont know if they are toe nails or silver dollars.
THEY don't know. But WE know. The electron energy levels are different. Unless your talking quarks and the like, in which case, sure.
I searched for 20 years for a toned peace dollar that satisfied my tastes and was within my budget. I settled on this one.
The color progression is correct It also appears to show some textile toning, as the pattern does extend into the fields. It has that 'crackled' appearance that one would expect from 1921 dollars.
Finally, in hand, it just has that look that is so difficult to explain.
Sadly, the images do not portray the luster.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
Ummm, that I disagree with. My big toe nail has no silver in it, so it is quite different at the "quantum level"...well, unless my kinky girlfriend painted my toe nails with silver nail polish...
Sub-atomic particles dont know if they are toe nails or silver dollars.
THEY don't know. But WE know. The electron energy levels are different. Unless your talking quarks and the like, in which case, sure.
It really is more a question of what the market accepts.
Agree!
And then there is the time issue:
I break open a Mint-sealed bag of bright white peace dollars and innocently put one in an album, come back 20 years later. Natural or artificial?
I put the peace dollar in an album and leave it in a sunny spot in the Nevada desert and come back only 5 years later. Natural or artificial?
I put a peace dollar in an album and put it in my oven at 250 degrees for 2 days. Natural or artificial?
I have then toned the coin using nothing but "acceptable" album cardboard but I did it over 3 different time frames. Is one or two of those methods "natural"? Are they all?
Depends on what they look like
They are very unlikely to look the same, or even similar.
Time is certainly a factor. And just as certainly Not the only factor.
(And conments regarding quantum mechanics and string theory are ridiculously irrelevant)
@Hadleydog said:
I searched for 20 years for a toned peace dollar that satisfied my tastes and was within my budget. I settled on this one.
The color progression is correct It also appears to show some textile toning, as the pattern does extend into the fields. It has that 'crackled' appearance that one would expect from 1921 dollars.
Finally, in hand, it just has that look that is so difficult to explain.
Sadly, the images do not portray the luster.
Cool reverse presentation. What does the obverse look like?
@northcoin said:
The more I read threads like this I wonder if rainbow toning will be viewed as a fad that once brought value to coins but will be discounted at some point in the future.
It is definitely possible.
Maybe like the gilded coins we see offered by various mail order "mints" ?
I personally refuse to pay a significant premium for attractively toned coins. I prefer a more "natural" look like on the coin in my profile pic. A natural age and patina is an attractive quality in a lot of different collectible and antique areas.
One surefire way to kill the market value of attractively toned coins is to get a few of the toning "artists" to make some youtube videos on how to tone coins and provide a few how-to guides. I would be personally willing to work with someone to do that, and spend a little money in the process. I'm thinking AT a coin and then submit it to a TPG and get a straight grade while documenting the process.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
Ummm, that I disagree with. My big toe nail has no silver in it, so it is quite different at the "quantum level"...well, unless my kinky girlfriend painted my toe nails with silver nail polish...
Stared collecting seriously in 1975 after college and getting a good job.
I remember that it was said then that the Morgans had bag toning as bags were coming out
but toned peace dollars were not to be seen. Virtual saw none and if I did I would stop and admire it because it was rare n
and this was not by observations alone. I could not find/buy a toned peace dollar back then. I saw it in print at the time.
David hall was there in the time and he recollects correctly
Conclusion: virtually all toned peace dollars are AT. Dollars were a hot item in those days.
I suspect thy are toning with some sort of gas.
@krueger said:
Stared collecting seriously in 1975 after college and getting a good job.
I remember that it was said then that the Morgans had bag toning as bags were coming out
but toned peace dollars were not to be seen. Virtual saw none and if I did I would stop and admire it because it was rare n
and this was not by observations alone. I could not find/buy a toned peace dollar back then. I saw it in print at the time.
David hall was there in the time and he recollects correctly
Conclusion: virtually all toned peace dollars are AT. Dollars were a hot item in those days.
I suspect thy are toning with some sort of gas.
Recent plethora of rainbow toned Peace dollars is very suspicious - regardless of who puts them in plastic slabs.
Agreed. I haven’t been serious into coins for very long at this point, just shy of a decade. When I first got serious into collecting I remember that toned coins were all the rage, as they still are today, but I don’t remember ever seeing colorfully toned peace dollars. There were a couple here and there that seemed legitimate back then and remembering them today they still would pass overwhelmingly as natural.
However, in the last few years, more and more toned peace dollars have been popping up. Not only do they look different than the ones I originally started noticing - they actually have an artificial look to them - but it’s just odd that all of a sudden there are SO MANY more of them out there.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
Disagree.
Far too absolute to be always true.
Not really. I mean, obviously I could paint the coin with enamel or spray oil on it or do all kinds of funky things. BUT BUT BUT, remember the context: AT vs. NT on coins. The coin doctors are trying to mimic the natural behavior of coins, which is oxides and sulfides. They would not use other substances as they would be too easily detected as AT.
So, in this context, it is absolutely true which is why it is such a problem.
As you posted, let's agree not to get into the "weeds." Colored paint is not toning!
IMO, coins are being toned with the "help of man" in a shorter period of time than would be needed to reach the same appearance. Peace dollars provide all the proof needed. So what. Colored coins are fulfilling a "NEED." Anyone who claims to know the difference between AT & NT (that they did not create) even 80% of the time is fooling themselves and folks who listen to them.
The best opinions of AT come from the folks who can produce it at will. For the rest of us, we can study "market acceptable" specimens to learn what to look for on suspected AT coins.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Either way, my only point is that there is no chemical difference between an AT an an NT coin."
Anyone disagree? I don't.
Disagree.
Far too absolute to be always true.
Not really. I mean, obviously I could paint the coin with enamel or spray oil on it or do all kinds of funky things. BUT BUT BUT, remember the context: AT vs. NT on coins. The coin doctors are trying to mimic the natural behavior of coins, which is oxides and sulfides. They would not use other substances as they would be too easily detected as AT.
So, in this context, it is absolutely true which is why it is such a problem.
As you posted, let's agree not to get into the "weeds." Colored paint is not toning!
IMO, coins are being toned with the "help of man" in a shorter period of time than would be needed to reach the same appearance. Peace dollars provide all the proof needed. So what. Colored coins are fulfilling a "NEED." Anyone who claims to know the difference between AT & NT (that they did not create) even 80% of the time is fooling themselves and folks who listen to them.
The best opinions of AT come from the folks who can produce it at will. For the rest of us, we can study "market acceptable" specimens to learn what to look for on suspected AT coins.
"When I look back on all the crap I learned in High School it's a wonder I can think at all.. And though my lack of education
hasn't hurt me none. I can read the writing on the wall."...hmmmm it so applies here doesn't it? Thank you Mr. Paul Simon.
Comments
I dont disagree with the science. But I disagree with the idea behind it. At the quantum level a toned coin is no different than your big toe nail. So now what?
If someone has mastered the art of toning that they can make this coin, then why arent there 100 of these?
Meanwhile everyone agrees there's a difference between that coin and this one.
So what is that difference if not a matter of NT vs AT
Would you expect the thickness of the silver sulfide layer on a naturally toned coin to be materially different from that on a hastily toned coin from lanzaf's oven or would they be about the same?
Disagree.
Far too absolute to be always true.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
.> @Baley said:
I wish more posters would state their opinions as opinions, rather than facts. And unless you have first hand knowledge regarding the toning source for “most monster peace dollars”, you have no way of knowing whether they were done by “the best artists”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Besides sulfer, there are innumerable environmental elements and biological molecules that may be deposited on a coin over time (lol, or all at once) which alter tg he path of light and produce what we experience as color.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
All of my posts are opinions.
Who here only posts facts?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
At least you are adding to the thread and not posting
nonsense!
.
it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.
I don't remember ever seeing a toned silver dollar in the '60s or '70s. I think that the first ones I saw were in the mid-eighties.
I knew it would happen.
Depends on the time of growth. In my oven it'll grow faster, but the deposition SHOULD (hard to say absolutely given different chemical environments, etc.) proceed in similar fashion: layers building on layers.
Of course. You could paint them with enamel, for instance. But the coin doctors are trying to mimic actual toning, not create something easily detectable. That means oxides and sulfides, usually sulfides.
Not really. I mean, obviously I could paint the coin with enamel or spray oil on it or do all kinds of funky things. BUT BUT BUT, remember the context: AT vs. NT on coins. The coin doctors are trying to mimic the natural behavior of coins, which is oxides and sulfides. They would not use other substances as they would be too easily detected as AT.
So, in this context, it is absolutely true which is why it is such a problem.
Next time I buy a Blast White roll of 1964 Washington quarters or Kennedy halves, maybe I'll tone some up for you. I scrapped all my silver recently and I don't have anything I want to play with right now.
Ummm, that I disagree with. My big toe nail has no silver in it, so it is quite different at the "quantum level"...well, unless my kinky girlfriend painted my toe nails with silver nail polish...
On a more serious note: the "now what" is simply my discomfort with screams of AT vs. NT. The fact is, like it or not, there is "market acceptable" AT and, frankly, there is "market unacceptable" NT. Those coins that come back "questionable color" that were sitting in granddad's collection in a cardboard album for 100 years are probably "natural" but are being rejected as unacceptable. Similarly, masterfully AT coins with a hint of rainbow hues are being straight graded because they are "market acceptable" and undetectable as AT.
It is not exactly a deep point, but I think it is one worth making.
LoL, alright buddy, you win.
Could discuss this at length here as a professional applied scientist of 30+ years, but I'd have to start charging you. 😎
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Here was one I found a few years back which I think has attractive toning.
Well, as a professional chemist of 30+ years, I'll just charge you back.
I have a coin purse NT that I am thinking of sending to grade. It might be the ugliest colored peace I have and I forget which forum member here sold it too me. It has promise I 🤔
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I can have someone tell me for free that every single colorful coin in the universe is spectrochemically identical.
What exactly would i be buying?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
An unscientific observation
For the really wildly toned dollars it seems to be predominantly obverse toned coins. Anyone agree?
Wild ones
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Obverse bisecting rainbows of amber to pink to blue are common. Often the side with the most bagmarks is toned. Also common is the target tone in the same colors, and the "framing" of relief. Advanced students achieve reds and greens and dark purples and tighter, smoother bands and transitions. Mistake coins turn dark and are dipped, dulling the luster. Ever notice that most monster masterpieces are the common dates? 😉
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The more I read threads like this I wonder if rainbow toning will be viewed as a fad that once brought value to coins but will be discounted at some point in the future.
This post, I couldn't agree with more. Very well said.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Me.
May we please see one of the coins made by an "advanced student" that you write about?"
Sub-atomic particles dont know if they are toe nails or silver dollars.
Careful! That GC sticker causes certain people to squirm...
Smitten with DBLCs.
To play devil's advocate: The first coin would be hard to emulate IMHO and the limited increase in premium that these get unfortunately doesn't justify the extra effort when the Easy Bake versions sell well for a few hundred when straight graded and are easier to make.
It is definitely possible.
THEY don't know. But WE know. The electron energy levels are different. Unless your talking quarks and the like, in which case, sure.
I searched for 20 years for a toned peace dollar that satisfied my tastes and was within my budget. I settled on this one.
The color progression is correct It also appears to show some textile toning, as the pattern does extend into the fields. It has that 'crackled' appearance that one would expect from 1921 dollars.
Finally, in hand, it just has that look that is so difficult to explain.
Sadly, the images do not portray the luster.
vibrating strings in other dimensions
It really is more a question of what the market accepts.
Agree!
Depends on what they look like
They are very unlikely to look the same, or even similar.
Time is certainly a factor. And just as certainly Not the only factor.
(And conments regarding quantum mechanics and string theory are ridiculously irrelevant)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Cool reverse presentation. What does the obverse look like?
Smitten with DBLCs.
Maybe like the gilded coins we see offered by various mail order "mints" ?
Where are Dorkkarl, Sincerely Michael, and Truthteller when we need them?
They're not with us anymore.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Better living thru chemistry?
I personally refuse to pay a significant premium for attractively toned coins. I prefer a more "natural" look like on the coin in my profile pic. A natural age and patina is an attractive quality in a lot of different collectible and antique areas.
One surefire way to kill the market value of attractively toned coins is to get a few of the toning "artists" to make some youtube videos on how to tone coins and provide a few how-to guides. I would be personally willing to work with someone to do that, and spend a little money in the process. I'm thinking AT a coin and then submit it to a TPG and get a straight grade while documenting the process.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Waaaaaaaaay too much information.
Stared collecting seriously in 1975 after college and getting a good job.
I remember that it was said then that the Morgans had bag toning as bags were coming out
but toned peace dollars were not to be seen. Virtual saw none and if I did I would stop and admire it because it was rare n
and this was not by observations alone. I could not find/buy a toned peace dollar back then. I saw it in print at the time.
David hall was there in the time and he recollects correctly
Conclusion: virtually all toned peace dollars are AT. Dollars were a hot item in those days.
I suspect thy are toning with some sort of gas.
Krueger
Did you check ebay?
Where did all of the colorful Peace dollars come from?
Hard to say for certain but more than likely Taco Bell.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Agreed. I haven’t been serious into coins for very long at this point, just shy of a decade. When I first got serious into collecting I remember that toned coins were all the rage, as they still are today, but I don’t remember ever seeing colorfully toned peace dollars. There were a couple here and there that seemed legitimate back then and remembering them today they still would pass overwhelmingly as natural.
However, in the last few years, more and more toned peace dollars have been popping up. Not only do they look different than the ones I originally started noticing - they actually have an artificial look to them - but it’s just odd that all of a sudden there are SO MANY more of them out there.
As you posted, let's agree not to get into the "weeds." Colored paint is not toning!
IMO, coins are being toned with the "help of man" in a shorter period of time than would be needed to reach the same appearance. Peace dollars provide all the proof needed. So what. Colored coins are fulfilling a "NEED." Anyone who claims to know the difference between AT & NT (that they did not create) even 80% of the time is fooling themselves and folks who listen to them.
The best opinions of AT come from the folks who can produce it at will. For the rest of us, we can study "market acceptable" specimens to learn what to look for on suspected AT coins.
100% agree
Gas bubbles.
"When I look back on all the crap I learned in High School it's a wonder I can think at all.. And though my lack of education
hasn't hurt me none. I can read the writing on the wall."...hmmmm it so applies here doesn't it? Thank you Mr. Paul Simon.