@HalfStrike said:
This is the general pattern you see with most mint series. The first one sells a lot and each one that follows the sales drop more and more. Gold buffalo sales have fallen back almost to 2008 levels now.
This is true, in general. The Mint also hastened the decline by doubling the mintages. And palladium prices didn't help.
I agree, plus the sheer number of precious metal issues available-I believe nine total in one ounce sizes of gold, palladium, and platinum alone including the different finishes. I like to get a few of these when I find them close to bullion in 70 to stack. All in all, It will take a sizeable amount of money to purchase all of these if one is so inclined. I believe that contributes to the lower mintages of the last few years. Secondary market only here on these for me.
@MilesWaits said:
And what percentage of that sales number will be affected by “oh snap, I spent $2000, returns?”
@MilesWaits said:
And what percentage of that sales number will be affected by “oh snap, I spent $2000, returns?”
MilesWaits| Could be quite a few if Palladium takes a two or three hundred dollar an ounce hit in the near future! I will wait, as I usually do, to get one of these on the secondary market.
@MilesWaits said:
Pinehurst is selling these in 69 grade for $1875! On eBay.
Okay, all you great minds who have helped me expand my coin collecting knowledge, what the heck is Pinehurst doing? Surely they recognized as many of us did on this forum that the flipping opportunity on these would be non-existing. If they had numerous coins purchased by their surrogates they could have just returned them. Or, did they purchase and ship off to the TGP companies so fast that they got stuck between a rock and hard place so they are now forced to sell these at a loss? Or do large companies get a reduced price on these issues like they do on more standard releases? Help???
@MilesWaits said:
Pinehurst is selling these in 69 grade for $1875! On eBay.
Okay, all you great minds who have helped me expand my coin collecting knowledge, what the heck is Pinehurst doing? Surely they recognized as many of us did on this forum that the flipping opportunity on these would be non-existing. If they had numerous coins purchased by their surrogates they could have just returned them. Or, did they purchase and ship off to the TGP companies so fast that they got stuck between a rock and hard place so they are now forced to sell these at a loss? Or do large companies get a reduced price on these issues like they do on more standard releases? Help???
My guess? Sell the 69's at a loss, sell the 70's at a gain. IF you lose $125 per 69, you need to probably gain like $400 on each 70 to break even. If they can sell the 70's for even more they win.
Now will they win? I have no clue. I didn't touch this mint issue.
I am wondering if there are issues seen by prople, with fast direct access to these, that indicate the reverse mirror finish Mercury has problems? Still wonder what the one week delay was about. I should get mine Tuesday to check it out.
If anyone just wants this as a nice coin why would they buy from the Mint at all, since this is so much cheaper now (as low as $1820 cash pre-sale on their site for NGC 69's)?
@MilesWaits said:
Pinehurst is selling these in 69 grade for $1875! On eBay.
Okay, all you great minds who have helped me expand my coin collecting knowledge, what the heck is Pinehurst doing? Surely they recognized as many of us did on this forum that the flipping opportunity on these would be non-existing. If they had numerous coins purchased by their surrogates they could have just returned them. Or, did they purchase and ship off to the TGP companies so fast that they got stuck between a rock and hard place so they are now forced to sell these at a loss? Or do large companies get a reduced price on these issues like they do on more standard releases? Help???
69s often sell for less than raw because they are maxed out and the raw might be 70s.
If Pinehurst is a bulk buyer or hooked up with one, they can buy these at 5% back so $1875 is pretty close to cost. They aren't losing that much. Probably selling under bullion and they may get a bullion discount if they are big enough so they are only paying maybe 5% total in fees. So, they lose around $100 on the 69s and make (hopefully) more on the 70s.
For the record, Pinehurst is selling 70 FDOI for $2895
Pinehurst has several varieties available on their website. Depending on the grade and desired label, you will have options. I put the max quantities on several of their listings. Interesting stuff.
Pretty amazing how Pinehurst already knows exactly how many coins will be returned in certain grades. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think selling below issue price while already knowing the exact number of 69s and 70s is a little fishy.
@Vpd said:
Pretty amazing how Pinehurst already knows exactly how many coins will be returned in certain grades. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think selling below issue price while already knowing the exact number of 69s and 70s is a little fishy.
Crystal ball, time travel, lucky guess, conspiracy, or experience and quick access to information?
I suspect one will be able to find better deals on the PCGS70 in the near future.
With 30,000 available options, no HH limit, there will be plenty of 69’s and 70’s to go around.
@Vpd said:
Pretty amazing how Pinehurst already knows exactly how many coins will be returned in certain grades. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think selling below issue price while already knowing the exact number of 69s and 70s is a little fishy.
What makes you think they know how many? If they submitted 100 or 200 coins, they just list 100-150 coins(or something like that) to presell as many as they can in advance. They can always adjust the numbers later or tap their suppliers to make up the difference.
Because I put qualities in the purchase fields until the max quantity was achieved. How would they know they will have exactly 20 of this or that? Or, lower numbers in the case of the more expensive offerings? Why have fewer quantities available for the 70s vs 69s if it’s so simple to just get more of this or that? I realize 69s will always be the predominant grade (generally) for issues such as this, but it just seems strange how the quantities ring out when looking at their website.
I get the ability to dictate labeling. Just hope that doesn’t apply to grading as well.
@Vpd said:
Because I put qualities in the purchase fields until the max quantity was achieved. How would they know they will have exactly 20 of this or that? Or, lower numbers in the case of the more expensive offerings? Why have fewer quantities available for the 70s vs 69s if it’s so simple to just get more of this or that? I realize 69s will always be the predominant grade (generally) for issues such as this, but it just seems strange how the quantities ring out when looking at their website.
I get the ability to dictate labeling. Just hope that doesn’t apply to grading as well.
They are probably estimates. He can't know exactly how many he'll get but he can make a guess based on past experience. If he gets more 70s than he thinks, he wins. If he gets fewer, he either cancels the orders or gets more from his connections. It's really not that complicated.
@MilesWaits said:
Pinehurst is selling these in 69 grade for $1875! On eBay.
You can get it for $1820 with the check thru their website! What I find strange is that every other dealer on Ebay, including MCM or Bullion Exchanges which typically offer the lowest price sell $450-500 above Pinehurst for the same exact label/grade!
Still, I haven't been able to find a definitive source (i.e. a statement from White) on that number. It was reported by another poster in another forum, so that 9086 should be taken with a grain of salt until someone can find a confirmation...
@MilesWaits said:
Pinehurst is selling these in 69 grade for $1875! On eBay.
Okay, all you great minds who have helped me expand my coin collecting knowledge, what the heck is Pinehurst doing? Surely they recognized as many of us did on this forum that the flipping opportunity on these would be non-existing. If they had numerous coins purchased by their surrogates they could have just returned them. Or, did they purchase and ship off to the TGP companies so fast that they got stuck between a rock and hard place so they are now forced to sell these at a loss? Or do large companies get a reduced price on these issues like they do on more standard releases? Help???
My guess? Sell the 69's at a loss, sell the 70's at a gain. IF you lose $125 per 69, you need to probably gain like $400 on each 70 to break even. If they can sell the 70's for even more they win.
Now will they win? I have no clue. I didn't touch this mint issue.
This. Well, mostly this.
If you have no confidence in this coin at this price level, you dump your marginal (and with modern issues today, a 69 is a marginal grade ) before something bad happens, like palladium crashing, or finding the true collector base for palladium is much smaller than you think. (See platinum (APE's) and its history.)
If you think sales will fall flat after the initial release, then getting rid of your non-70 inventory as soon as possible is a pretty good decision. It's better to lose $125 a coin than get stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory of coins that there is no market for.
So, yeah, I could see why someone would do this. Just selling a couple of the FDOI 70's would totally make up for the loss you're incurring on the 69's.
@Vpd said:
Pretty amazing how Pinehurst already knows exactly how many coins will be returned in certain grades. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think selling below issue price while already knowing the exact number of 69s and 70s is a little fishy.
Seriously?
You can send any modern issue PM and expect back at least 50% 70's, and I think that %age is low. A look at any pop report will tell you that. Don't have to be an actuary to make an educated guess...
Exactly 1 year ago Today the Bid on Spot Palladium was $978.00. Today you have the Opportunity to purchase a 2019 Reverse Proof Palladium directly from the Mint for $1,987.50. What a deal...
After the first go round, I had to decide not to buy the 2nd issue, or this 3rd one. I had to get off the merry-go-round and I threw the 1st one back into the pond. Never thought I'd do it.
Decided to take Bower's advice and focus on a few specific pursuits. Between Congress and the Mint, they can drive you bonkers and it does wear you down after awhile.
Nice design, tho'.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I agree. There is a lot of downward pressure now on this issue that we didn’t have on the previous two. Which makes the next issue more interesting.
In the meantime, you may be able to get a 69 closer and closer to spot here pretty soon.
Interesting that it took 3 days to sell as many, as the 2018 proof did in several hours.
At this higher price, probably more have been purchased than there will be buyers, for those who want to sell. So I can see why 69's and even opened raw OGP coins some are asking less $$ than the Mint. However I don't think there are that a large number of 70 buyers ready to get jump in at these high markup levels quite yet.
ordered one for the A+ looks and b/c I suspect palladium will continue to froth. Read multiple reports of market deficits ahead. e.g Russia’s Norilsk Nickel (Nornickel) (GMKN.MM) recent release and others. Hoping to eventually trade a spare 2017 BU for a 2018 Proof, completing the set.
@hardbitten said:
ordered one for the A+ looks and b/c I suspect palladium will continue to froth. Read multiple reports of market deficits ahead. e.g Russia’s Norilsk Nickel (Nornickel) (GMKN.MM) recent release and others. Hoping to eventually trade a spare 2017 BU for a 2018 Proof, completing the set.
In other words, you bought it for the looks. [Which is fine.] There is no investment reason to pay that kind of premium given all the other palladium coins out there that sell close to spot.
Comments
LOL.
Or "oh snap, these aren't selling for $2500 on eBay?"
.
I agree, plus the sheer number of precious metal issues available-I believe nine total in one ounce sizes of gold, palladium, and platinum alone including the different finishes. I like to get a few of these when I find them close to bullion in 70 to stack. All in all, It will take a sizeable amount of money to purchase all of these if one is so inclined. I believe that contributes to the lower mintages of the last few years. Secondary market only here on these for me.
MilesWaits| Could be quite a few if Palladium takes a two or three hundred dollar an ounce hit in the near future! I will wait, as I usually do, to get one of these on the secondary market.
Pinehurst is selling these in 69 grade for $1875! On eBay.
That does not sound good at all to me. That means they do not even want to send them in to try for 70's. Why pre-sell for a loss now?? Confusing.
I hope this is not going to have quality issues like the silver matte Liberty 2.5 ounce seems to have.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Okay, all you great minds who have helped me expand my coin collecting knowledge, what the heck is Pinehurst doing? Surely they recognized as many of us did on this forum that the flipping opportunity on these would be non-existing. If they had numerous coins purchased by their surrogates they could have just returned them. Or, did they purchase and ship off to the TGP companies so fast that they got stuck between a rock and hard place so they are now forced to sell these at a loss? Or do large companies get a reduced price on these issues like they do on more standard releases? Help???
Have they discovered a wholesale source in China?
My guess? Sell the 69's at a loss, sell the 70's at a gain. IF you lose $125 per 69, you need to probably gain like $400 on each 70 to break even. If they can sell the 70's for even more they win.
Now will they win? I have no clue. I didn't touch this mint issue.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
I am wondering if there are issues seen by prople, with fast direct access to these, that indicate the reverse mirror finish Mercury has problems? Still wonder what the one week delay was about. I should get mine Tuesday to check it out.
If anyone just wants this as a nice coin why would they buy from the Mint at all, since this is so much cheaper now (as low as $1820 cash pre-sale on their site for NGC 69's)?
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
That does mean if they have better pricing and are able to sell these under mint price these might just sell out.
69s often sell for less than raw because they are maxed out and the raw might be 70s.
If Pinehurst is a bulk buyer or hooked up with one, they can buy these at 5% back so $1875 is pretty close to cost. They aren't losing that much. Probably selling under bullion and they may get a bullion discount if they are big enough so they are only paying maybe 5% total in fees. So, they lose around $100 on the 69s and make (hopefully) more on the 70s.
For the record, Pinehurst is selling 70 FDOI for $2895
Pinehurst has several varieties available on their website. Depending on the grade and desired label, you will have options. I put the max quantities on several of their listings. Interesting stuff.
And MCM has their 69 at $2250.
“Oh snap, I could buy a 69 for less than issue Price from the Mint?!”
Wow, that is high asking price for the 2018-W Proof PCGS PR70DCAM in the West Point label at $4,169.90. All the 2018's seem to be getting a pop.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Pretty amazing how Pinehurst already knows exactly how many coins will be returned in certain grades. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one might think selling below issue price while already knowing the exact number of 69s and 70s is a little fishy.
Crystal ball, time travel, lucky guess, conspiracy, or experience and quick access to information?
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I suspect one will be able to find better deals on the PCGS70 in the near future.
With 30,000 available options, no HH limit, there will be plenty of 69’s and 70’s to go around.
What makes you think they know how many? If they submitted 100 or 200 coins, they just list 100-150 coins(or something like that) to presell as many as they can in advance. They can always adjust the numbers later or tap their suppliers to make up the difference.
Because I put qualities in the purchase fields until the max quantity was achieved. How would they know they will have exactly 20 of this or that? Or, lower numbers in the case of the more expensive offerings? Why have fewer quantities available for the 70s vs 69s if it’s so simple to just get more of this or that? I realize 69s will always be the predominant grade (generally) for issues such as this, but it just seems strange how the quantities ring out when looking at their website.
I get the ability to dictate labeling. Just hope that doesn’t apply to grading as well.
They are probably estimates. He can't know exactly how many he'll get but he can make a guess based on past experience. If he gets more 70s than he thinks, he wins. If he gets fewer, he either cancels the orders or gets more from his connections. It's really not that complicated.
That makes sense. Thanks
APMEX has yet to set their pricing.
If I seem an appealing price, I will be leaning on their Black Label PCGS70.
Or not.
As an aside, bear in mind that Pinehurst is eating eBay fees and credit card fees; also, beyond just the $105 lesser pricing than the Mint.
You can get it for $1820 with the check thru their website! What I find strange is that every other dealer on Ebay, including MCM or Bullion Exchanges which typically offer the lowest price sell $450-500 above Pinehurst for the same exact label/grade!
I won't lie, the more I look at this coin the more I like it. 69 at near $200 discount from mint price is not bad at all!
Still, I haven't been able to find a definitive source (i.e. a statement from White) on that number. It was reported by another poster in another forum, so that 9086 should be taken with a grain of salt until someone can find a confirmation...
This. Well, mostly this.
If you have no confidence in this coin at this price level, you dump your marginal (and with modern issues today, a 69 is a marginal grade
) before something bad happens, like palladium crashing, or finding the true collector base for palladium is much smaller than you think. (See platinum (APE's) and its history.)
If you think sales will fall flat after the initial release, then getting rid of your non-70 inventory as soon as possible is a pretty good decision. It's better to lose $125 a coin than get stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory of coins that there is no market for.
So, yeah, I could see why someone would do this. Just selling a couple of the FDOI 70's would totally make up for the loss you're incurring on the 69's.
Seriously?
You can send any modern issue PM and expect back at least 50% 70's, and I think that %age is low. A look at any pop report will tell you that. Don't have to be an actuary to make an educated guess...
Exactly 1 year ago Today the Bid on Spot Palladium was $978.00. Today you have the Opportunity to purchase a 2019 Reverse Proof Palladium directly from the Mint for $1,987.50. What a deal...
Wow, if those are real prices it will put a downward pressure on mint sales, even psychologically I would think it would affect.
Well, just Love coins, period.
low opening bid on EBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2019-W-1-oz-Reverse-Proof-Palladium-American-Eagle-25-Coin-w-Box-COA-P2-/264463895949
Picked up 30
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
wow, with a no reserve on top of it. good luck
do you think that's enough?
After the first go round, I had to decide not to buy the 2nd issue, or this 3rd one. I had to get off the merry-go-round and I threw the 1st one back into the pond. Never thought I'd do it.
Decided to take Bower's advice and focus on a few specific pursuits. Between Congress and the Mint, they can drive you bonkers and it does wear you down after awhile.
Nice design, tho'.
I knew it would happen.
Excellent points, and I think I will follow. I got the very nice 2018, like the 2019 but NOT at this mintage and price/markup.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I agree. There is a lot of downward pressure now on this issue that we didn’t have on the previous two. Which makes the next issue more interesting.
In the meantime, you may be able to get a 69 closer and closer to spot here pretty soon.
I don't know about first day sales, but there are currently 14,847 left in stock.
Graci, Nurmaler...
Interesting that it took 3 days to sell as many, as the 2018 proof did in several hours.
At this higher price, probably more have been purchased than there will be buyers, for those who want to sell. So I can see why 69's and even opened raw OGP coins some are asking less $$ than the Mint. However I don't think there are that a large number of 70 buyers ready to get jump in at these high markup levels quite yet.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
This may be the first PR 70 with a low opening bid and no reserve. It will be interesting to see what happens.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2019-W-PALLADIUM-REVERSE-LIBERTY-HIGH-RELIEF-PD-25-NGC-PF-70-ER-4869530-159-/143383176930
Nurmaler, from someone that makes a living with numbers, Thanks for your timely input on this matter...
ordered one for the A+ looks and b/c I suspect palladium will continue to froth. Read multiple reports of market deficits ahead. e.g Russia’s Norilsk Nickel (Nornickel) (GMKN.MM) recent release and others. Hoping to eventually trade a spare 2017 BU for a 2018 Proof, completing the set.
In other words, you bought it for the looks. [Which is fine.] There is no investment reason to pay that kind of premium given all the other palladium coins out there that sell close to spot.
I can Not remember an offering that has had Less activity on the secondary market than has the 2019 Reverse Proof Palladium.
Simple bay search of "2019 reverse proof palladium" and you have 22 sold items with 1 item in OGP...
Correct. Low, low demand. Easy to buy but oh so expensive.
Now, try a search on the 2019 silver liberty in PCGS 70.
Probably proof gold eagles and the like. There just no margin and it's an expensive purchase that anyone can get from the Mint.
I also think you may have more people who self-submit since the slabbing fee is such a small fraction of the actual purchase price.
Just received my order from USM. Obvious spotting on the cheek of the coin. Will return this item.
Be patient. It has now been over three weeks and I may be close to receiving the refund on a damaged coin from the Mint.
Spotting as in silver eagle milk spots?