Wayneas... simply put... if I believe coins are selling too cheap, I can buy them all myself. A fair argument for those who support open bids and invite me to bid if I believe the coins are selling too cheaply.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
Wayneas... simply put... if I believe coins are selling too cheap, I can buy them all myself. A fair argument for those who support open bids and invite me to bid if I believe the coins are selling too cheaply.
Wondercoin.
so if I understand this, you can drive the auction market and Hansen can drive the registry sets?
Back to the rockets. Why aren't they marked as sold-out yet? I've been checking daily for a week now with no restocking. Any chance more will be available or unlikely?
@Tetromibi said:
Back to the rockets. Why aren't they marked as sold-out yet? I've been checking daily for a week now with no restocking. Any chance more will be available or unlikely?
2019 ROCKETSHIP SET 49089 3/31/2019
That leaves 911. Subtract the returned/damaged, say, 1% of total (50,000) is 500.
Leaves 411.
How many Mint stores are there? Philly, Denver, and DC?
the mint set and rolled Kennedy's will be out soon enough and this will dramatically change the market of the 2019 d coins and lets see how the "P" coins do lol
Wayne. Nothing to do with driving the auction market. It simply points out that open bids might be the best way to determine market price on a new coin. If one thinks they are selling too low, they can simply buy them. Fair all the way around. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@WAYNEAS said:
the mint set and rolled Kennedy's will be out soon enough and this will dramatically change the market of the 2019 d coins and lets see how the "P" coins do lol
. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact the people are in this business to make a profit. If they can get 3x or 6x times the value of a coin, it is a good thing and a great profit for them.
If it weren't for people in the business to make a profit, it would become much harder for the collector to get coins. In some cases, it would become much more expensive to get coins.
For example, a bulk retailer only pays $5 or $6 to slab coins in bulk. If single collectors were paying $30 (or more) to slab the same coins, the cost of modern Eagles and Commems in 69 would be significantly higher to the collector. And no, PCGS could not offer the same price to every collector because the average collector does not give them the same efficiency as a bulk submitter sending in 500 or 1000 coins.
No one would make albums, for example. PCGS would not exist. There would be no auction houses or hobby publications.
I wonder about the open bid auctions now on coins like the 69PL FS Kennedy...
In the short run, I believe they tend to simply “run the coin prices into the ground”. One esteemed participant here that has a few now running... I welcome comments and thoughts from him. Another ebayer just launched an open bid coin. No doubt Justin will follow suit shortly.
Is that the best way to establish a market on a new coin if everyone just tosses all their coins out there at a Penny opening bid and whatever happens, happens? Maybe it is. Or, is a (better?) proper market slowly developed if sellers state an asking price for their coins such as these and find the price point where buyers and sellers agree on a deal? This has been a subject of discussion for years and years with these moderns. Thoughts?
Honestly, for a lot of these new issues the auction prices were running higher than the BIN prices. This one seems to be an exception. Probably because the demand for this coin is only fueled by the uniqueness of the plastic and not everyone is "in the game" yet. That makes an open auction not completely feasible. An auction is the most efficient means of establishing value IF IF IF the supply is known and the demand has matured. Possibly neither condition is met in this case.
No ill intent, Please explain " If I love the particular coin, I can even buy up all the competitions’ coins on eBay and “corner the market”!
as I thought Hansen was cornering the market especially in registry sets. LOL
I think he means "love" as in believes in the value. I've been a party to this in the past.
At one point, I was buying up 1931-S Buff nickels in circ because I thought they were undervalued.
There are times dealers will come in and BIN something I'm offering at a low price to protect the price of their similar items. I once had a proof set dealer (remember when there was a market of those) who didn't like that I was selling them on eBay at bid just to move the, so he bought them all and then asked me to offer to him in the future at 10 back because otherwise I was undercutting his prices, which were reasonable but just not as cheap as mine.
@Tetromibi said:
Back to the rockets. Why aren't they marked as sold-out yet? I've been checking daily for a week now with no restocking. Any chance more will be available or unlikely?
Since they appear to be selling them at shows, it may simply be that the remaining stock is with their show staff and will eventually be sold out or returned to the ecommerce.
@WAYNEAS said:
the mint set and rolled Kennedy's will be out soon enough and this will dramatically change the market of the 2019 d coins and lets see how the "P" coins do lol
Are those going to be PL also?
The coins will be PL. Some subset of them always is. The real question is whether PCGS will slab them as PL.
How many Mint stores are there? Philly, Denver, and DC?
Give each about 25.
Leaves 336 for online ordering.
Just doodling...
Edit: One store in DC, that I know of.
Also their coin show staff seems to have some.
You can not (necessarily) subtract returns unless they are excessive. The Mint overproduces originally to have replacements for a "reasonable" amount of returns.
@wondercoin said:
Wayneas... simply put... if I believe coins are selling too cheap, I can buy them all myself. A fair argument for those who support open bids and invite me to bid if I believe the coins are selling too cheaply.
Wondercoin.
so if I understand this, you can drive the auction market and Hansen can drive the registry sets?
You can only "drive" the market for coins with very low mintages. Hansen drives the registry sets because he buys the top pop coins which are usually 1 or 2 or 3 coins for the keys in a series.
Any auction that can be "driven" isn't a true auction. An open auction assumes a known reasonable supply and a mature, developed demand. This does not exist for the top pop coins because of supply issues. It MAY not exist for the Kennedy PL coins for reasons I enumerated elsewhere.
If you, for example, were the first to discover a minor error and go to auction. The price realized would either be too high or too low for two reasons: the total number available is not known and people aren't trying to fill a non-existent hole in their album. But put a doubled die spot in an album or registry and demand "matures" and, over time, available supply becomes known. At that point, you would have to have Hansen money to drive the auction market and be willing to lose that money in the process as the price will collapse as soon as you stop bidding everything up.
But, the possibility for manipulation is why shill bidding and bid rigging is illegal. Big scandal in the art market a few years ago. There's a mature market but with very limited supply. Run up the price of one van Gogh to a ridiculous level and then sell a similar piece into an inflated market. That would be impossible to do with widgets like S-VDB cents or 16-D dimes.
@wondercoin said:
Wayneas... simply put... if I believe coins are selling too cheap, I can buy them all myself. A fair argument for those who support open bids and invite me to bid if I believe the coins are selling too cheaply.
Wondercoin.
so if I understand this, you can drive the auction market and Hansen can drive the registry sets?
As a general statement, I would also say that the period of price discovery for a new issue is always erratic. The people who understand the market end up making a killing. The people who don't will grossly overpay. My guess on the Kennedy PL rockets is that some issues (67, 68 coins) are probably going to tank. The 69 coins are somewhat unknown.
I'm NOT a believer in FDOI or FS at all, BUT there are people who have Kennedy sets and they want them all to be FS or FDOI. This particular coin is going to have a VERY small number of 69 FDOI coins because of the way this story unfolded. Is there sufficient supply for the FDOI demand? I'm not really sure, but we're going to find out.
@DotStore said:
Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?
Have not heard/read anything. Still listed in Coin Facts. A good thing is there is no pops for the ones with both PL and PF, but would be interesting to see what a proof-like proof looks like.
@DotStore said:
Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?
Have not heard/read anything. Still listed in Coin Facts. A good thing is there is no pops for the ones with both PL and PF, but would be interesting to see what a proof-like proof looks like.
I'm more curious as to what a non-proof-like proof looks like!
@DotStore said:
Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?
Have not heard/read anything. Still listed in Coin Facts. A good thing is there is no pops for the ones with both PL and PF, but would be interesting to see what a proof-like proof looks like.
Does "pops" mean Population Numbers? If so, the FDOI Apollo PF, PL (Regular Strike) has population numbers...
so they are PF + PL + Regular Strike
Wayneas... your honest mistake is that you stated that I offered you a FS 69 coin at $1295. I never did. You can easily refer back to our written communications to confirm that. If you disagree, please send me a private PM now and I’ll send you a copy of our communications. I am not upset in any way. I just wanted to correct an honest misunderstanding you are having. .
Wondercoin.
yes you are correct. Your offer was for a FDOI and not a FS. I need to read more carefully and start drinking decaf
. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact the people are in this business to make a profit. If they can get 3x or 6x times the value of a coin, it is a good thing and a great profit for them.
If it weren't for people in the business to make a profit, it would become much harder for the collector to get coins. In some cases, it would become much more expensive to get coins.
For example, a bulk retailer only pays $5 or $6 to slab coins in bulk. If single collectors were paying $30 (or more) to slab the same coins, the cost of modern Eagles and Commems in 69 would be significantly higher to the collector. And no, PCGS could not offer the same price to every collector because the average collector does not give them the same efficiency as a bulk submitter sending in 500 or 1000 coins.
No one would make albums, for example. PCGS would not exist. There would be no auction houses or hobby publications.
“Thanks. So currently there's almost double the amount of FDOI MS69 PL vs. FS MS69 PL”
I did not run any of the numbers. What I can say is I suspect the vast majority of the coins in the system at PCGS are FS. In our case, 100% of them at the moment.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@DotStore said:
Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?
Have not heard/read anything. Still listed in Coin Facts. A good thing is there is no pops for the ones with both PL and PF, but would be interesting to see what a proof-like proof looks like.
Does "pops" mean Population Numbers? If so, the FDOI Apollo PF, PL (Regular Strike) has population numbers...
so they are PF + PL + Regular Strike
Sure does... I think my brain did not believe my eyes when it saw, PF/PL/RS all on one coin and by-passed it.
Number: 707536
@wondercoin said:
“Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?”
I am told the PF and Apollo references are related to that particular insert and not the coins.
Wondercoin.
@wondercoin Thanks. Now to track down what the insert looks like for the “Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL.”
I have 18 total in for grading (8 are graded and back to host for correcting the labels).
I opted NOT to pay for first strike on any of them. I'm still not quite there yet to get the special dealer discounts. So It would cost $34/coin to get FS vs. $16 ($12 in this case thanks to the last quarterly special and being careful with submissions.)
I've struggled with figuring out when the FS/FDOI designation is worth the premium. On a personal level, it's never. But I know for collectors in general there are those that place a higher value and will pay a premium for the label.
Regarding Bulk submissions and FS / FDOI Eligibility...
If someone has a sealed case of 100 sets that was postmarked prior to the FS Cutoff Date (example March 20th for these Rocketship sets). Could they submit the SEALED case (as shipped from the US MINT) as a bulk submission and still get FS Labels? How about FDOI Labels? (I think the answer is yes on the FS, but I don't know at all regarding FDOI eligibility)
@DotStore said:
Regarding Bulk submissions and FS / FDOI Eligibility...
If someone has a sealed case of 100 sets that was postmarked prior to the FS Cutoff Date (example March 20th for these Rocketship sets). Could they submit the SEALED case (as shipped from the US MINT) as a bulk submission and still get FS Labels? How about FDOI Labels? (I think the answer is yes on the FS, but I don't know at all regarding FDOI eligibility)
For FDOI, usually have that in by a certain time on the first (or second?) day that the Mint releases a coin or the package from the Mint is dated for the first day (receipt).
Best to call CS for either option to get up-to-date info.
Bummer Gluggo -- I'll prolly be similar. My 12 ships went "in process" today. Will know soon! Not having the Sacs graded ---
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser, Bullsitter, robeck, Nickpatton, jwitten, and many OTHERS
Well—-I really think this game is rigged
10 nice PL halves submitted from a group of 50
All come back straight grades, no PL, all label 702796
67-67+ grades
Really?
Well with or without the cardboard rocketship, it was still assigned a Rocketship Label -- so it's strange they did not give it a PL. However, that might actually be the exception because most were PL (not sure if that would be better or worse though)
Forgot to mention, I actually have some Rocketship sets that DO NOT look PL. I compared them to other Rocketship Sets I have and they are more subdued (just not as shiny). I thought to myself if I submitted these I don't think they would get a PL Designation...
@DotStore said:
Well with or without the cardboard rocketship, it was still assigned a Rocketship Label -- so it's strange they did not give it a PL. However, that might actually be the exception because most were PL (not sure if that would be better or worse though)
Not sure either. The intake people take the coins out of whatever mint packaging there in and the graders only see the coins in the 2.5 x 2.5 flips.
I sent two cardboards rockets and a separate Kennedy and all three of them came back as RS PL (highest was 67+). Just sent two more in Mint shipping package with three other submissions (saved on outgoing mail $) we’ll see how that goes in about 2-4 weeks.
Looks like a mistake; after calling cust service they will take back at their expense and re label—but now I have to wait the ship time and these coins will go on another coast to coast journey
@7over8 said:
Looks like a mistake; after calling cust service they will take back at their expense and re label—but now I have to wait the ship time and these coins will go on another coast to coast journey
Glad it worked out for you!
~HABE FIDUCIAM IN DOMINO III V VI / III XVI~ POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
Comments
Wayneas... simply put... if I believe coins are selling too cheap, I can buy them all myself. A fair argument for those who support open bids and invite me to bid if I believe the coins are selling too cheaply.
Wondercoin.
so if I understand this, you can drive the auction market and Hansen can drive the registry sets?
Kennedys are my quest...
nevermind, gonna opt not to comment on this one. You're probably walking a fine line with that original post. That's all I'll say.
Back to the rockets. Why aren't they marked as sold-out yet? I've been checking daily for a week now with no restocking. Any chance more will be available or unlikely?
2019 ROCKETSHIP SET 49089 3/31/2019
That leaves 911. Subtract the returned/damaged, say, 1% of total (50,000) is 500.
Leaves 411.
How many Mint stores are there? Philly, Denver, and DC?
Give each about 25.
Leaves 336 for online ordering.
Just doodling...
Edit: One store in DC, that I know of.
the mint set and rolled Kennedy's will be out soon enough and this will dramatically change the market of the 2019 d coins and lets see how the "P" coins do lol
Kennedys are my quest...
Wayne. Nothing to do with driving the auction market. It simply points out that open bids might be the best way to determine market price on a new coin. If one thinks they are selling too low, they can simply buy them. Fair all the way around. Wondercoin.
Are those going to be PL also?
. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact the people are in this business to make a profit. If they can get 3x or 6x times the value of a coin, it is a good thing and a great profit for them.
If it weren't for people in the business to make a profit, it would become much harder for the collector to get coins. In some cases, it would become much more expensive to get coins.
For example, a bulk retailer only pays $5 or $6 to slab coins in bulk. If single collectors were paying $30 (or more) to slab the same coins, the cost of modern Eagles and Commems in 69 would be significantly higher to the collector. And no, PCGS could not offer the same price to every collector because the average collector does not give them the same efficiency as a bulk submitter sending in 500 or 1000 coins.
No one would make albums, for example. PCGS would not exist. There would be no auction houses or hobby publications.
Honestly, for a lot of these new issues the auction prices were running higher than the BIN prices. This one seems to be an exception. Probably because the demand for this coin is only fueled by the uniqueness of the plastic and not everyone is "in the game" yet. That makes an open auction not completely feasible. An auction is the most efficient means of establishing value IF IF IF the supply is known and the demand has matured. Possibly neither condition is met in this case.
I think he means "love" as in believes in the value. I've been a party to this in the past.
At one point, I was buying up 1931-S Buff nickels in circ because I thought they were undervalued.
There are times dealers will come in and BIN something I'm offering at a low price to protect the price of their similar items. I once had a proof set dealer (remember when there was a market of those) who didn't like that I was selling them on eBay at bid just to move the, so he bought them all and then asked me to offer to him in the future at 10 back because otherwise I was undercutting his prices, which were reasonable but just not as cheap as mine.
Since they appear to be selling them at shows, it may simply be that the remaining stock is with their show staff and will eventually be sold out or returned to the ecommerce.
The coins will be PL. Some subset of them always is. The real question is whether PCGS will slab them as PL.
You can only "drive" the market for coins with very low mintages. Hansen drives the registry sets because he buys the top pop coins which are usually 1 or 2 or 3 coins for the keys in a series.
Any auction that can be "driven" isn't a true auction. An open auction assumes a known reasonable supply and a mature, developed demand. This does not exist for the top pop coins because of supply issues. It MAY not exist for the Kennedy PL coins for reasons I enumerated elsewhere.
If you, for example, were the first to discover a minor error and go to auction. The price realized would either be too high or too low for two reasons: the total number available is not known and people aren't trying to fill a non-existent hole in their album. But put a doubled die spot in an album or registry and demand "matures" and, over time, available supply becomes known. At that point, you would have to have Hansen money to drive the auction market and be willing to lose that money in the process as the price will collapse as soon as you stop bidding everything up.
But, the possibility for manipulation is why shill bidding and bid rigging is illegal. Big scandal in the art market a few years ago. There's a mature market but with very limited supply. Run up the price of one van Gogh to a ridiculous level and then sell a similar piece into an inflated market. That would be impossible to do with widgets like S-VDB cents or 16-D dimes.
As a general statement, I would also say that the period of price discovery for a new issue is always erratic. The people who understand the market end up making a killing. The people who don't will grossly overpay. My guess on the Kennedy PL rockets is that some issues (67, 68 coins) are probably going to tank. The 69 coins are somewhat unknown.
I'm NOT a believer in FDOI or FS at all, BUT there are people who have Kennedy sets and they want them all to be FS or FDOI. This particular coin is going to have a VERY small number of 69 FDOI coins because of the way this story unfolded. Is there sufficient supply for the FDOI demand? I'm not really sure, but we're going to find out.
@jmlanzaf No more coffee for you.
Whew!
Okay, maybe a cup or two. ☕️
Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?
LOL. Believe it or not, I'm having my first cup now.
Have not heard/read anything. Still listed in Coin Facts. A good thing is there is no pops for the ones with both PL and PF, but would be interesting to see what a proof-like proof looks like.
I'm more curious as to what a non-proof-like proof looks like!
Does "pops" mean Population Numbers? If so, the FDOI Apollo PF, PL (Regular Strike) has population numbers...
so they are PF + PL + Regular Strike
“Has anyone got more information on what the Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL Coins are?”
I am told the PF and Apollo references are related to that particular insert and not the coins.
Wondercoin.
yes you are correct. Your offer was for a FDOI and not a FS. I need to read more carefully and start drinking decaf
Kennedys are my quest...
well said
Kennedys are my quest...
Thanks. So currently there's almost double the amount of FDOI MS69 PL vs. FS MS69 PL
“Thanks. So currently there's almost double the amount of FDOI MS69 PL vs. FS MS69 PL”
I did not run any of the numbers. What I can say is I suspect the vast majority of the coins in the system at PCGS are FS. In our case, 100% of them at the moment.
Wondercoin.
Sure does... I think my brain did not believe my eyes when it saw, PF/PL/RS all on one coin and by-passed it.
Number: 707536
@wondercoin Thanks. Now to track down what the insert looks like for the “Rocketship FDOI Apollo PF, PL.”
I have 18 total in for grading (8 are graded and back to host for correcting the labels).
I opted NOT to pay for first strike on any of them. I'm still not quite there yet to get the special dealer discounts. So It would cost $34/coin to get FS vs. $16 ($12 in this case thanks to the last quarterly special and being careful with submissions.)
I've struggled with figuring out when the FS/FDOI designation is worth the premium. On a personal level, it's never. But I know for collectors in general there are those that place a higher value and will pay a premium for the label.
Regarding Bulk submissions and FS / FDOI Eligibility...
If someone has a sealed case of 100 sets that was postmarked prior to the FS Cutoff Date (example March 20th for these Rocketship sets). Could they submit the SEALED case (as shipped from the US MINT) as a bulk submission and still get FS Labels? How about FDOI Labels? (I think the answer is yes on the FS, but I don't know at all regarding FDOI eligibility)
Yes, if you ship the “as shipped from the US MINT” sealed case you can get FS label. Bulk submission info: https://www.pcgs.com/services/bulksubmissions
For FDOI, usually have that in by a certain time on the first (or second?) day that the Mint releases a coin or the package from the Mint is dated for the first day (receipt).
Best to call CS for either option to get up-to-date info.
I am a Loser!
They both came back 2019-D 50C Rocketship Set - First Strike, PL MS66PL 
But one of my other came back 2019-S $1 Native American Rocketship Set - First Strike, DC PR70DC
1 out of 4 thats not so bad I guess! 
Congrats @Gluggo! 70s in this set seem to be relatively tough.
PF70's on the buck seem to be frequent
Yes... hmm... there are 15 varieties. Whew!
Bummer Gluggo -- I'll prolly be similar. My 12 ships went "in process" today. Will know soon! Not having the Sacs graded ---
I got one 69Dcam and a 68Dcam DOH!
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
2019 ROCKETSHIP SET 49081 4/7/2019
No seriously, this thing can sell out now...
I got the same @jabba and mailed them to the GC and niece.
Like the Energizer bunny... keeps going and going...
2019 ROCKETSHIP SET 49075 4/14/2019
What I said...
(Uh, numbers courtesy of the US Mint. Can't forget that...)
Just keeps on going... and now backwards.
Well—-I really think this game is rigged
10 nice PL halves submitted from a group of 50
All come back straight grades, no PL, all label 702796
67-67+ grades
Really?
All Rocketship
All PL
Who is grading moderns over there in the grading room?
Have they ever seen a PL coin?
@7over8 Did you send the entire cardboard rocketship or just the coins?
Well with or without the cardboard rocketship, it was still assigned a Rocketship Label -- so it's strange they did not give it a PL. However, that might actually be the exception because most were PL (not sure if that would be better or worse though)
Forgot to mention, I actually have some Rocketship sets that DO NOT look PL. I compared them to other Rocketship Sets I have and they are more subdued (just not as shiny). I thought to myself if I submitted these I don't think they would get a PL Designation...
Not sure either. The intake people take the coins out of whatever mint packaging there in and the graders only see the coins in the 2.5 x 2.5 flips.
I sent two cardboards rockets and a separate Kennedy and all three of them came back as RS PL (highest was 67+). Just sent two more in Mint shipping package with three other submissions (saved on outgoing mail $) we’ll see how that goes in about 2-4 weeks.
Clearly all of mine were PL; I’m calling this morning to see what the issue is
Looks like a mistake; after calling cust service they will take back at their expense and re label—but now I have to wait the ship time and these coins will go on another coast to coast journey
Glad it worked out for you!
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck