1904 $20 MS65 CAC Liberty sells for, Holy Mackerel!

$22,500.

According to Great Collections, someone paid this amount to acquire a seemingly very attractive 1904 MS65 CAC Liberty. These sell for a small fraction of that price, USUALLY ABOUT $3,000. Why so much?

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Comments

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I never understood this one, either.

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's the going price for a 1904 PCGS/CAC-MS66+ !!

  • Actually that is 43% more that the two 66+ coins to sell at auction. Both sold within the past two years for $14,688 and $16,800 respectfully. Prior to these, five CAC 66's sold in the $9,000-$13,000 range.

    Crazy purchase!

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 6,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WOW

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 21,173 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FredWeinberg You go to farm shows? Where? And they do coins at them too?

    wow

    bob :)

    BST deals: Dozens of buys/sells. Will provide a list upon request.
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 4,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s what happens when you use your voice instead of typing!

    Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV.
    Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 42 +-Year PNG Member, and an ICTA Board Member.A full time coin dealer since 1972.
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How would you grade it, Fred? Should that beauty have gotten a gold cac sticker?

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 952 ✭✭✭

    @FredWeinberg commented on it here as he was the consignor.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12165795#Comment_12165795

    A good article was posted by PCGS about the coins.

    GreatCollections to Auction Ruth Weinberg Estate of Old Green Holders

    https://pcgs.com/news/greatcollections-to-auction-ruth-weinberg-estate-of-old-green-holders

    When I saw the invoice photos in the article, I thought the 1904 $20 (presumably the one sold at $1,100 in 1979) would not show too great of a return. I thought wrong. It must have been much nicer than 65. Looks like a number of them brought strong premiums.

    https://greatcollections.com/search.php?fromyear=&toyear=2018&grade_range_1=1&grade_range_2=70&ungraded=0&ungraded=1&fromprice=&toprice=&mode=product&series=0&q=Ruth+Weinberg&listing_type=4&frombid=0&tobid=500&sort=12&action=Price

    PCGS Auction Prices shows a record for the 1904 at $37,375.00, but that was for a Double Struck in Collar error. For some reason they don't list this $22,500 one.

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 4,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I called it a jam back in the 70s – and agreed with the MS 65 grade in 1988 when PCGS-Roushar graded it – obviously there were at least two bitters the thought the coin was a 67 – it was a super point to see in hand – incredible Luster and beautiful golden services surfaces

    Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV.
    Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 42 +-Year PNG Member, and an ICTA Board Member.A full time coin dealer since 1972.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 6,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kenneth1830 said:
    $22,500.

    According to Great Collections, someone paid this amount to acquire a seemingly very attractive 1904 MS65 CAC Liberty. These sell for a small fraction of that price, USUALLY ABOUT $3,000. Why so much?

    By today's standards the coin is an easy 66+ IMHO with a shot at 67 if the standards loosen again. Someone bought the coin and not the holder.

  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, amazing !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 7,855 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It seems to me that this is one of the times where the green sticker hurts the value of the coin. JA did not gold sticker the coin as a lock 66 (certainly doesn't mean it isn't and won;t be in a 66 holder soon). It just seems that a fresh coin with no sticker might solicit more grand fantasies of a 67 than a green stickered 65.

  • MorganMan94MorganMan94 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Kenneth1830 said:
    $22,500.

    According to Great Collections, someone paid this amount to acquire a seemingly very attractive 1904 MS65 CAC Liberty. These sell for a small fraction of that price, USUALLY ABOUT $3,000. Why so much?

    By today's standards the coin is an easy 66+ IMHO with a shot at 67 if the standards loosen again. Someone bought the coin and not the holder.

    There is a less than zero chance this coin is a 67 "by today's standards". If cracked, it might even go down.

    LOL!! Is this a serious post? I doubt you can find a $20 graded recently in a 65 much less 64 that or below even comes close to this one!

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I better check the "stack." :D :D :D :D

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least 2 people liked it a lot. Seems high though.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 6,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    It seems to me that this is one of the times where the green sticker hurts the value of the coin. JA did not gold sticker the coin as a lock 66 (certainly doesn't mean it isn't and won;t be in a 66 holder soon). It just seems that a fresh coin with no sticker might solicit more grand fantasies of a 67 than a green stickered 65.

    I agree. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of CAC green sticker coins upgrade. I suspect the bidders willing to pay a large premium have too.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 6,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Kenneth1830 said:
    $22,500.

    According to Great Collections, someone paid this amount to acquire a seemingly very attractive 1904 MS65 CAC Liberty. These sell for a small fraction of that price, USUALLY ABOUT $3,000. Why so much?

    By today's standards the coin is an easy 66+ IMHO with a shot at 67 if the standards loosen again. Someone bought the coin and not the holder.

    There is a less than zero chance this coin is a 67 "by today's standards". If cracked, it might even go down.

    I said IF standards loosened again.

  • FSFFSF Posts: 492 ✭✭✭

    It looks like a lock for at least a straight 66 and quite possibly higher. The price is way up there though. For anyone interested, Legend has a pretty nice one in 65 CAC for $4,250, and quite properly graded, but it's not as nice as the GC example.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A fool and his money...

    thefinn
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MorganMan94 said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Kenneth1830 said:
    $22,500.

    According to Great Collections, someone paid this amount to acquire a seemingly very attractive 1904 MS65 CAC Liberty. These sell for a small fraction of that price, USUALLY ABOUT $3,000. Why so much?

    By today's standards the coin is an easy 66+ IMHO with a shot at 67 if the standards loosen again. Someone bought the coin and not the holder.

    There is a less than zero chance this coin is a 67 "by today's standards". If cracked, it might even go down.

    LOL!! Is this a serious post? I doubt you can find a $20 graded recently in a 65 much less 64 that or below even comes close to this one!

    Crack and send Skippy, then come back and cry rather than laugh.

  • MorganMan94MorganMan94 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @MorganMan94 said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Kenneth1830 said:
    $22,500.

    According to Great Collections, someone paid this amount to acquire a seemingly very attractive 1904 MS65 CAC Liberty. These sell for a small fraction of that price, USUALLY ABOUT $3,000. Why so much?

    By today's standards the coin is an easy 66+ IMHO with a shot at 67 if the standards loosen again. Someone bought the coin and not the holder.

    There is a less than zero chance this coin is a 67 "by today's standards". If cracked, it might even go down.

    LOL!! Is this a serious post? I doubt you can find a $20 graded recently in a 65 much less 64 that or below even comes close to this one!

    Crack and send Skippy, then come back and cry rather than laugh.

    So you can't find one? Just what I figured.

  • FSFFSF Posts: 492 ✭✭✭

    I know it's kinda weird, and maybe even a little sad, but I'm a Jif man myself.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019 2:35PM

    Not sure what coin you are all looking at. There is NO WAY this coin is 66+ or 67. Someone wanted the holder sticker combo.

    .

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    By today's standards the coin is an easy 66+ IMHO with a shot at 67 if the standards loosen again. wn.

    I said IF standards loosened again.

    You called it an easy 66+. Not a chance. Zero.

  • MorganMan94MorganMan94 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019 2:39PM

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    Not sure what coin you are all looking at. There is NO WAY this coin is 66+ or 67. Someone wanted the holder sticker combo.

    .

    At no point did I say it was, if you re-read my response you can see the only thing I said was that it is not going to downgrade.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MorganMan94 said:

    At no point did I say it was, if you re-read my response you can see the only thing I said was that it is not going to downgrade.

    That is what I thought last month when an old holder CAC went DOWN 2 grades.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the 66+ on the front page of coinfacts. The coin above is not even close.

    .

    .

  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 8,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    Not sure what coin you are all looking at. There is NO WAY this coin is 66+ or 67. Someone wanted the holder sticker combo.

    That would imply that the buyer intends to not crack it. In which case the 22,500 becomes beyond-beyond-beyond absurd.

  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 8,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’d be scared to gouge it while cracking it out ....

    And I can’t imagine the buyer would send it in as-is for grade reconsideration .... maybe with a gold bean on it but not with the greenie.

  • msch1manmsch1man Posts: 763 ✭✭✭

    I remember that double eagle along with a 1932 Indian Eagle from the same collection that I bid what I thought was fairly aggressively on...but was well short of the winning bid - https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/606029/1932-Indian-Gold-Eagle-PCGS-MS-64-CAC-OGH

  • WCCWCC Posts: 269 ✭✭✭

    @thefinn said:
    A fool and his money...

    My opinion also. A huge premium for a minimal quality difference.

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 367 ✭✭✭

    That same coin in an NGC holder may not be marketable even with CAC sticker right ?

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fiftysevener said:
    That same coin in an NGC holder may not be marketable even with CAC sticker right ?

    Not necessarily.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @msch1man said:
    I remember that double eagle along with a 1932 Indian Eagle from the same collection that I bid what I thought was fairly aggressively on...but was well short of the winning bid - https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/606029/1932-Indian-Gold-Eagle-PCGS-MS-64-CAC-OGH

    That's a nice one!

  • habaracahabaraca Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭

    Pedigree has its privileges.....
    The Weinberg Moniker!!!!

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Too much cheek chatter for an upgrade

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • batumibatumi Posts: 541 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Boosibri said:
    It seems to me that this is one of the times where the green sticker hurts the value of the coin. JA did not gold sticker the coin as a lock 66 (certainly doesn't mean it isn't and won;t be in a 66 holder soon). It just seems that a fresh coin with no sticker might solicit more grand fantasies of a 67 than a green stickered 65.

    I agree. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of CAC green sticker coins upgrade. I suspect the bidders willing to pay a large premium have too.

    People do py large premiums on coins the believe are a lock for a 'guanteed' upgrade. I am not one of them. Beautiful original coin imo, but to a possible crack-out to MS 67, I believe a lotto ticket purchase has better odds. Kudos to Fred Weinberg in obtaining nice pieces on behalf of his Mom. I tried and got blown out on the ones I bid on in that sale and I just wished to get even one!

  • FSFFSF Posts: 492 ✭✭✭

    The coin is definitely better than a 65. I've examined plenty enough 65s with CAC and they are rarely if ever this nice. Very unlikely to ever get a 67. Possible 66+ on a good day. What I don't care for is the slight fingerprint impression.

  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭✭

    My guess is that the buyer has some type of inkling as to what they were bidding.

    The holder/sticker combination may be tough to find, but its not $22,000 hard to find.

    This leaves the only other option as I see it that the buyer felt the coin was significantly undergraded and worth 66+/67 money.

    Not only do you have to be knowledgeable in grading but you have to believe in yourself and the coin that much to lay out some serious money for it.

    I believe the winning bidder believed in the coin and was willing to put their money where their mouth is.

    You cant always judge a coin by the picture

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought it may have been two last-moment, nuclear bids, but here's when Bidder 11 and Bidder 12 began the war ...

    https://greatcollections.com/Coin/606033/1904-Liberty-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-OGH

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 4,827 ✭✭✭✭

    I got a fever, and the only cure is more Cowbell!!!

    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • batumibatumi Posts: 541 ✭✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:
    I thought it may have been two last-moment, nuclear bids, but here's when Bidder 11 and Bidder 12 began the war ...

    https://greatcollections.com/Coin/606033/1904-Liberty-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-OGH

    Super nice type 3, but I had dropped out at 5 g's all the same

  • ReadyFireAimReadyFireAim Posts: 620 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019 5:39PM

    @thefinn said:
    A fool and his money...

    I'm watching something similar unfold...
    Guess which one is the 65 (at $66,000 now) and the 64 (at $26,000 now)


    Answer...Bottom is MS64

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