The GOAT QB Statistical Rankings

erikthredd

With everyone arguing lately which QB should be considered GOAT, I put together a list of all the major passing statistical categories so we can see where each QB ranks all time compared to the other QBs in this debate. I only used the QBs most mentioned in the other thread on this topic,they were Tom Brady,Peyton Manning,Joe Montana,John Elway,Dan Marino,Drew Brees,Johnny Unitas,Dan Fouts & Jim Kelly.

Each QB is listed by where they currently rank in most of the major passing stat categories. I used Pro-Reference for most of this list and I posted a link to any other sites i used.
Obviously Brady & Brees are still active so their current rankings aren't final. In some categories a different QB not mentioned above was ranked #1 so I posted their name & stat total in the 1st spot.

Passes Completed
1. Drew Brees 6370
3. Peyton Manning 6125
4. Tom Brady 5774
5. Dan Marino 4967
9. John Elway 4123
18. Joe Montana 3409
20. Dan Fouts 3297
29. Jim Kelly 2874
32. Johnny Unitas 2830

Pass Attempts
1. Brett Favre 10,169
2. Drew Brees 9484
3. Peyton Manning 9380
4. Tom Brady 9019
5. Dan Marino 8358
7. John Elway 7250
17. Dan Fouts 5604
19. Joe Montana 5391
24. Johnny Unitas 5186
32. Jim Kelly 4779

Passing Yards
1. Drew Brees 72,103
2. Peyton Manning 71,940
4. Tom Brady 67,758
5. Dan Marino 61,361
9. John Elway 51,475
16. Dan Fouts 43,040
18, Joe Montana 40,551
20. Johnny Unitas 40,239
27. Jim Kelly 35,467

Passing Touchdowns
1. Peyton Manning 539
3. Tom Brady 501
4. Drew Brees 499
5. Dan Marino 420
11. John Elway 300
14. Johnny Unitas 290
17. Joe Montana 273
20. Dan Fouts 254
27. Jim Kelly 237

Passer Rating
1.Aaron Rodgers 103.6
3. Tom Brady 97.6
4. Drew Brees 97.3
7. Peyton Manning 96.5
13. Joe Montana 92.3
28. Dan Marino 86.4
37. Jim Kelly 84.4
72. Dan Fouts 80.2
73. John Elway 79.9
85. Johnny Unitas 78.2

Passes Intercepted
1.Brett Favre 336
7. Johnny Unitas 253
8. Dan Marino 252
9. Peyton Manning 251
13. Dan Fouts 242
16. Drew Brees
17. John Elway 226
43. Jim Kelly 175
48. Tom Brady 166
69. Joe Montana 139

Yards Per Pass Attempt
1.Otto Graham 9.0
13. Johnny Unitas 7.8
16. Dan Fouts 7.7
19. Peyton Manning 7.7
21. Drew Brees 7.6
27. Joe Montana 7.5
30. Tom Brady 7.5
37. Jim Kelly 7.4
43. Dan Marino 7.3
77. John Elway 7.1

Pass Completion Percentage
1 Drew Brees 67.2%
5. Peyton Manning 65.3%
13. Tom Brady 64.0%
15. Joe Montana 63.2%
41. Jim Kelly 60.1%
52. Dan Marino 59.4%
63. Dan Fouts 58.8%
93. John Elway 56.9%
132. Johnny Unitas 54.6%

Passing Touchdown/Interception Ratio https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/career-passing-tdintratio
1.Aaron Rodgers 4.11
2. Tom Brady 3.02
5. Drew Brees 2.19
7. Peyton Manning 2.15
13. Joe Montana 1.96
26. Dan Marino 1.67
(the rest are not ranked in top 50)
John Elway
Johnny Unitas
Dan Fouts
Jim Kelly

Fourth Quarter Comebacks (Regular Season & Playoffs)
Peyton Manning 45
Tom Brady 43
Johnny Unitas 36
Dan Marino 36
John Elway 35
Drew Brees 32
Joe Montana 31
Dan Fouts 24
Jim Kelly 22

Game Winning Drives (Regular Season & Playoffs)
Peyton Manning 56
Tom Brady 54
Dan Marino 51
John Elway 46
Drew Brees 46
Johnny Unitas 40
Joe Montana 33
Dan Fouts 26
Jim Kelly 29

NFL Regular Season Quarterback Won/Loss/Tie Records & Winning Percentage
https://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html?type=reg&alltime=1&sort=w
1. Tom Brady 200-57 .778%
2. Peyton Manning 186-79 .702%
4. John Elway 148-82-1 .643%
5. Dan Marino 147-93 .613%
6. Drew Brees 146-107 .577
8. Joe Montana 117-47 .713%
13. Jim Kelly 101-59 .631%
29. Dan Fouts 86-84 .506%
(This site only used stats from 1970 to present - Unitas wasn’t listed)
Johnny Unitas 118-63-4 .651%

NFL Postseason Quarterback Won/Loss Records & Winning Percentage
https://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html?alltime=1&type=post&letter=&sort=w
1. Tom Brady 27-10 .730%
2. Joe Montana 16-7 696%
4. John Elway 14-7 .667%
5. Peyton Manning 14-13 .519%
14. Jim Kelly 9-8 .529%
19. Dan Marino 8-10 .444
21. Drew Brees 7-6 .538
Johnny Unitas 6-3 .666% (4-1 in NFL)
Dan Fouts 3-4 .428%

Games Started/Played (Couldn’t find a list with just QBs so I used just these 9 QBs for this ranking in order)
1. Peyton Manning 265/266
2. Tom Brady 257/259
3. Drew Brees 253/254
4. Dan Marino 240/242
5. John Elway 231/234
6. Johnny Unitas 185/211
7. Dan Fouts 171/181
8. Joe Montana 164/192
9. Jim Kelly 160/160

PER GAME AVERAGES
Passes Completed Per Game
1. Drew Brees 25.1
5. Peyton Manning 23.0
9. Tom Brady 22.3
22. Dan Marino 20.5
39. Dan Fouts 18.2
44. Jim Kelly 18.0
45. Joe Montana 17.8
46. John Elway 17.6
99. Johnny Unitas 13.4

Pass Attempts Per Game
Matt Stafford 38.8
3. Drew Brees 37.3
8. Peyton Manning 35.3
9. Tom Brady 34.8
14. Dan Marino 34.5
37. John Elway 31.0
38. Dan Fouts 31.0
44. Jim Kelly 29.9
61. Joe Montana 28.1
92. Johnny Unitas 24.6

Passing Yards Per Game
1. Drew Brees 283.9
4. Peyton Manning 270.5
7. Tom Brady 261.6
14. Dan Marino 253.6
19. Dan Fouts 237.8
34. Jim Kelly 221.7
36. John Elway 220.0
39. Joe Montana 211.2
67. Johnny Unitas 190.7

Brick

Yards Per Pass Attempt
1.Otto Graham 9.0
I realize many here never saw him play. Gentlemen. This is the GOAT.
Thank you.

JoeBanzai

ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

JoeBanzai

@Brick said:
Yards Per Pass Attempt
1.Otto Graham 9.0
I realize many here never saw him play. Gentlemen. This is the GOAT.
Thank you.

Otto should be considered.

Foolish to compare QB's from different era's. These new guys that everyone loves are no better than the guys that threw the ball down the field and completed 50% of their passes.

erikthredd

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

BillJones

@Brick said:
Yards Per Pass Attempt
1.Otto Graham 9.0
I realize many here never saw him play. Gentlemen. This is the GOAT.
Thank you.

No really. It was a different era and a different game. It’s like saying Cy Young is the GOAT pitcher because he won 511 games. He won a lot of those games in the 1890s when pitchers didn’t throw as hard and could start a lot more games. Graham didn’t play against the sophisticated defenses and 300 pound linemen who could move like the 180 pound guys of his day. He was great, no doubt about it, but comparing players from different eras is always hard to do when the conditions under which they played were vastly different.

There is also the issue of games per season. The modern guys have 16 games a year. When I was young, it was 14 games a season. If you could stay healthy, the extra two games added to you overall statistics.

DIMEMAN

A lot of the top 5 or 6 are not listed in a lot of the listings. Curious who these are.

Tibor

Bart Starr is my favorite since I was a kid in the early
60's. Two SB wins and two SB MVP's. Not complaining
that he isn't on any list, this just brought back some good memories.
Thanks.

erikthredd

@DIMEMAN said:
A lot of the top 5 or 6 are not listed in a lot of the listings. Curious who these are.

You can see who is missing on each category in the link below. They're mostly just random QBs that aren't considered for the GOAT debate.
example Passes Completed Per Game
1 Drew Brees
2 Matt Stafford
3 Andrew Luck
4 Matt Ryan
5 Peyton Manning
6 Kirk Cousins
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_per_g_career.htm

garnettstyle

Bradshaw? Staubach?

BillJones

@Tibor said:
Bart Starr is my favorite since I was a kid in the early
60's. Two SB wins and two SB MVP's. Not complaining
that he isn't on any list, this just brought back some good memories.
Thanks.

Starr was a cog in the Vince Lombardi scheme. He was not flashy or spectacular; he simply did his job. With Paul Horning and Jim Taylor in the backfield and well coached unit ahead of them, sportswriters viewed him as no more than steady. Unitus was a much better passer; Tiddle got the press because because he played in New York; and Fran Tarkington was the fresh new face who could scramble.

craig44

I think that in football, it is nearly impossible to compare across eras as the rules of the game have changed so much to favor passing in the modern game. the guys today will obviously have bigger raw stats as they throw more frequently. Modern players will likewise have better rate stats as holding and pass interference rules are enforced so much more tightly, the quarterback cannot be roughed and linebackers cannot tackle high on receivers. There was a time when crossing routes were rare as receivers knew they were in serious danger going across the middle of the field. that is not so today.

that said, I think we need to look for statistical outliers for each era so players can be viewed in the context of when they played. I think players like Graham, Van Brocklin, Baugh and Title were just as dominate as Brady, Brees and Manning. They were just playing a completely different brand of football.

JoeBanzai

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

He should be on your list. Him not getting mentioned was an oversight. It's your list.

1951WheatiesPremium

I think Dan Marino is the swing player here. The guy you can use to show why using stats without context is a silly way to evaluate talent. Dan Marino had basically all the meaningful passing stat records when he retired. His case for being the GOAT at the time relied heavily on stats and though he didn’t win a championship he was widely regarded as in the discussion with many having listed him 1st. Now, thanks largely to an enormous amount of rule changes designed to increase scoring, Dan Marino is slowly being pushed down this list by EVERYBODY playing today. I’m not going to do every list but here’s career passing yardage:

Now, how many of these guys played in the 2000s? Seems like an awful lot. Too many to be a normal distribution of NFL history. And too many scrubs on that list. When Dan retired 20 years ago, he had more yards than anyone by 10K. The only guys with more yardage now all played their careers in the pass happy 2000s where you can’t hold and hit receivers and you can’t hit the quarterback like you used to.

More completions, more yards, more TDS, more comebacks, longer careers - all because it is significantly easier to throw the ball now that it has ever been.

The ‘he never played against these coverages’ or ‘these athletes are superhuman’ angle does not hold water with me simply because in any era, you’re playing against the best that era has to offer. Standing out from your peers - and by how much - is a much better indication of greatness. Like Babe Ruth’s out homering whole teams or Marino throwing for 10K more yards than anyone ever had.

I’m not saying some of these guys playing today aren’t great players. But they all have better stats so that tells me there’s something off with the stats.

erikthredd

@JoeBanzai said:

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

He should be on your list. Him not getting mentioned was an oversight. It's your list.

It is my list and i don't consider Favre a GOAT candidate. I think the guy was greatly overrated and his career stats a product of playing longer than every other quarterback. If you feel he really should be listed here, feel free to post where he ranks in each category.

erikthredd

@1951WheatiesPremium These stats were mainly for LarkinCollector after he pointed that regular season passing stats were the only accurate way to compare QBs of a given era in the Charles Haley 5 Rings thread. I included the previous era QBs as well just because i had their stats in front of me when i researched this list.

1951WheatiesPremium

@erikthredd

Thanks for putting the lists together; forgot to mention that in my post.

Nicely done.

1951WheatiesPremium

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

He should be on your list. Him not getting mentioned was an oversight. It's your list.

It is my list and i don't consider Favre a GOAT candidate. I think the guy was greatly overrated and his career stats a product of playing longer than every other quarterback. If you feel he really should be listed here, feel free to post where he ranks in each category.

Maybe but he - Brett Favre - was close to being the best player on the planet from 95-97. Never a great decision maker as he trusted his arm too much and needed Reggie White to win a SuperBowl but certainly a great talent and if you base it all on stats he’s got to be up there near the top.

bronco2078

@JoeBanzai said:

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

He should be on your list. Him not getting mentioned was an oversight. It's your list.

most appearances in a ben stiller movie?

1951WheatiesPremium

@bronco2078 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

He should be on your list. Him not getting mentioned was an oversight. It's your list.

most appearances in a ben stiller movie?

I guess the Brett Favre role was originally written as Steve Young. He passed due to the raunchiness of the film being in conflict with his faith.

Funny movie...

erikthredd

@1951WheatiesPremium said:

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@erikthredd said:

@JoeBanzai said:
ericthredd, check your list..........Brett Farve seems to be missing from almost all of your categories.

I didn't include Favre in this debate because no one thought he was worthy in the other thread. His name got listed a couple times above because he was currently 1st in those stat categories.

He should be on your list. Him not getting mentioned was an oversight. It's your list.

It is my list and i don't consider Favre a GOAT candidate. I think the guy was greatly overrated and his career stats a product of playing longer than every other quarterback. If you feel he really should be listed here, feel free to post where he ranks in each category.

Maybe but he - Brett Favre - was close to being the best player on the planet from 95-97. Never a great decision maker as he trusted his arm too much and needed Reggie White to win a SuperBowl but certainly a great talent and if you base it all on stats he’s got to be up there near the top.

I'm actually adding Favre's rankings now.

1951WheatiesPremium

For what it’s worth, there are lots of parallels between Montana-Marino and Brady-Manning.

I’ve always felt they were the two best of their era and that while Manning and Marino had the records, Joe and Tom were the better QBs...

...hence my not being much for stats as the sole basis of an argument.

There’s a great story (I hope I remember this correctly) about ‘The Drive’; that it started with the 49ers being quite ‘tight’ or ‘nervous’ as they took the field with their season on the line. As they went into the huddle, Montana looked around at everyone’s faces and instead of delivering the play, asked the team if that was actor John Candy in the front row. It broke the tension and the 49ers made history.

There’s no stat that will capture that moment or it’s importance but it’s part of what made him great; I can remember no player who seemed cooler under pressure than Joe did and it is only made more impressive by the fact that there was almost no such thing as roughing the passer...

craig44

In many of these lists, there is always the modern bias. What we are seeing now must be the best there has ever been. And some say that the athletes today are super human and so much better than 30 years ago. That just doesn't make sense. 30-40 years just is not enough for the human body to evolve to the point that it is significantly better or more athletic than before. Training methods and supplements and surgical procedures have all improved, but if one could "transport" a Warren Moon or Jim Kelly to modern times, they would benefit from the same improvements.

to get to any approximation of who was best ever, one needs to start with the best from each era, then distinguish who was most dominant for their time. Much like Ruth was more dominant in the 1920's than Willie Mays was during the 1960's so Ruth could be considered the more dominant player.

Was Unitas more dominant in the 1950's than Mannning was during the 2000's when viewed in context among their peers? I think that is where the discussion needs to stay rather than comparing raw passing statistics that heavily favor the modern passing game.

erikthredd

@JoeBanzai Here's where Favre ranks in each category. I already edited my original post once and if i try to edit a second time its going to disappear while waiting for approval.

2nd in Passes Completed w/ 6300
1st in Pass Attempts w/ 10,169
3rd in Passing Yards w/ 71,838
2nd in Passing Touchdowns w/ 508
29th in Passer Rating w/ 86.0%
1st in Passes Intercepted w/ 336
81st in Yards Per Pass Attempt w/ 7.1
26th in Pass Completion Percentage w/ 62.0
35th in Touchdown/Interception Ratio w/ 1.51
30 Fourth Quarter Comebacks (Regular Season & Playoffs)
45 Game Winning Drives (Regular Season & Playoffs)
3rd in NFL Regular Season Quarterback Won/Loss/Tie Records & Winning Percentage 186-112 .624%
7th in NFL Postseason Quarterback Won/Loss Records & Winning Percentage 13-11 .542%
Games Started/Played 298/302
19th in Passes Completed Per Game w/ 20.9
18th in Passes Completed Per Game w/ 33.7
18th in Passing Yards Per Game w/ 237.9

bronco2078

@craig44 said:
In many of these lists, there is always the modern bias. What we are seeing now must be the best there has ever been. And some say that the athletes today are super human and so much better than 30 years ago. That just doesn't make sense. 30-40 years just is not enough for the human body to evolve to the point that it is significantly better or more athletic than before. Training methods and supplements and surgical procedures have all improved, but if one could "transport" a Warren Moon or Jim Kelly to modern times, they would benefit from the same improvements.

to get to any approximation of who was best ever, one needs to start with the best from each era, then distinguish who was most dominant for their time. Much like Ruth was more dominant in the 1920's than Willie Mays was during the 1960's so Ruth could be considered the more dominant player.

Was Unitas more dominant in the 1950's than Mannning was during the 2000's when viewed in context among their peers? I think that is where the discussion needs to stay rather than comparing raw passing statistics that heavily favor the modern passing game.

no one can properly grasp a player they haven't seen play while they were alive. Sure theres old black and white clips of qb's in leather helmets rushing around but it doesn't stack up to personally seeing a living person play right now.

erikthredd

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
For what it’s worth, there are lots of parallels between Montana-Marino and Brady-Manning.

I’ve always felt they were the two best of their era and that while Manning and Marino had the records, Joe and Tom were the better QBs...

...hence my not being much for stats as the sole basis of an argument.

There’s a great story (I hope I remember this correctly) about ‘The Drive’; that it started with the 49ers being quite ‘tight’ or ‘nervous’ as they took the field with their season on the line. As they went into the huddle, Montana looked around at everyone’s faces and instead of delivering the play, asked the team if that was actor John Candy in the front row. It broke the tension and the 49ers made history.

There’s no stat that will capture that moment or it’s importance but it’s part of what made him great; I can remember no player who seemed cooler under pressure than Joe did and it is only made more impressive by the fact that there was almost no such thing as roughing the passer...

I mainly consider these categories when deciding who should be considered the GOAT at this position.
Passing Touchdowns
Passes Intercepted
Touchdown/Interception Ratio
Completion Percentage
Passer Rating
4th Quarter Comebacks
Game Winning Drives
Won/Loss Percentage for Regular Season & Playoffs
Super Bowl Won/Loss Record

Does he put points on the board? Does he not turn the ball over? Is he accurate? Can he bring his team back when they're down? With the game on the line can he drive his team down the field and score? Does he win most of his games started? And can he wins the games that matter the most?

I know some people don't like to point to Games Won when this topic comes up but a Quarterback's job is to put points on the board and win big football games. If he can't do this then he doesn't belong in the GOAT argument.
That's just my two cents on this topic.

craig44

@bronco2078 said:

@craig44 said:
In many of these lists, there is always the modern bias. What we are seeing now must be the best there has ever been. And some say that the athletes today are super human and so much better than 30 years ago. That just doesn't make sense. 30-40 years just is not enough for the human body to evolve to the point that it is significantly better or more athletic than before. Training methods and supplements and surgical procedures have all improved, but if one could "transport" a Warren Moon or Jim Kelly to modern times, they would benefit from the same improvements.

to get to any approximation of who was best ever, one needs to start with the best from each era, then distinguish who was most dominant for their time. Much like Ruth was more dominant in the 1920's than Willie Mays was during the 1960's so Ruth could be considered the more dominant player.

Was Unitas more dominant in the 1950's than Mannning was during the 2000's when viewed in context among their peers? I think that is where the discussion needs to stay rather than comparing raw passing statistics that heavily favor the modern passing game.

no one can properly grasp a player they haven't seen play while they were alive. Sure theres old black and white clips of qb's in leather helmets rushing around but it doesn't stack up to personally seeing a living person play right now.

true, few people alive now saw Graham or Baugh, but we have their statistical record and can compare that to their peers to see how dominant they were in context. no one alive saw cobb or ruth, but we can use their stats to compare them to their peers. almost like the OPS+ stat.

we can still use statistics, but they must be in context.

stevek

Joe was so good they named a state after him.

Barndog

need a category for SB victories.

craig44

SB victories are a team accomplishment, not an individual one. really shouldn't be included.

erikthredd

@Barndog said:
need a category for SB victories.

Here you go:

Super Bowl Won/Loss Records
1. Tom Brady 5-3
2. Joe Montana 4-0
3. Peyton Manning 2-2
4. John Elway 2-3
5. Brett Favre 1-1
6. Johnny Unitas 1-1
7. Dan Marino 0-1
8. Jim Kelly 0-4
9. Dan Fouts 0-0

stevek

Joe Montana 4-0

What else does anyone need to know?

Joe Montana is the GOAT, and we all know it, except some homer Patriots fans who won't admit it.

perkdog

@craig44 said:
SB victories are a team accomplishment, not an individual one. really shouldn't be included.

Im sorry but the Atlanta Super Bowl come from behind victory was legendary, a lot of that was Tom Brady. Any Football fan would have to agree, if not then why do so many people talk about "The Drive" about Montana? That got him a TON of fanfair over the years and it doesnt even come close to the "Drives" in the Atlanta Super Bowl win.

perkdog

@bronco2078 said:

@craig44 said:
In many of these lists, there is always the modern bias. What we are seeing now must be the best there has ever been. And some say that the athletes today are super human and so much better than 30 years ago. That just doesn't make sense. 30-40 years just is not enough for the human body to evolve to the point that it is significantly better or more athletic than before. Training methods and supplements and surgical procedures have all improved, but if one could "transport" a Warren Moon or Jim Kelly to modern times, they would benefit from the same improvements.

to get to any approximation of who was best ever, one needs to start with the best from each era, then distinguish who was most dominant for their time. Much like Ruth was more dominant in the 1920's than Willie Mays was during the 1960's so Ruth could be considered the more dominant player.

Was Unitas more dominant in the 1950's than Mannning was during the 2000's when viewed in context among their peers? I think that is where the discussion needs to stay rather than comparing raw passing statistics that heavily favor the modern passing game.

no one can properly grasp a player they haven't seen play while they were alive. Sure theres old black and white clips of qb's in leather helmets rushing around but it doesn't stack up to personally seeing a living person play right now.

No we cant plus Pre 1960's NFL was literally backyard sucker punch football follies really. It was a mix of Football and Rugby,

erikthredd

@stevek said:
Joe Montana 4-0

What else does anyone need to know?

Joe Montana is the GOAT, and we all know it, except some homer Patriots fans who won't admit it.

Had I typed out Tom Brady is GOAT because he won 5 SBs then everyone and their mother would be on here whining "you can't use SBs because that is a team stat". As if a quarterback isn't doing the exact same things he does in a regular season game.

craig44

If you want to make career super bowl victories paramount to your criteria for choosing greatest players of all time at their positions, you will need to include players such as: Marv Fleming for TE he won 4, Bill Romanowski LB (4), Franco Harris RB won 4, leGarrette Blount has won 3, should we place him up with Barry Sanders and Ladanian Tomlinson?

How about quarterbacks? Bradshaw, Plunkett and eli manning have all won multiple super bowls. would you rather have any of those 3 over Marino? Maybe Bradshaw but most certainly not the other two.

trying to rank GOATs in any team sport by rings is folly.

1951WheatiesPremium

@perkdog said:

@craig44 said:
SB victories are a team accomplishment, not an individual one. really shouldn't be included.

Im sorry but the Atlanta Super Bowl come from behind victory was legendary, a lot of that was Tom Brady. Any Football fan would have to agree, if not then why do so many people talk about "The Drive" about Montana?. That got him a TON of fanfair over the years and it doesnt even come close to the "Drives" in the Atlanta Super Bowl win.

Because going on a drive like that to win a game rarely happened at that time. Ninety two yards in three minutes was basically unthinkable- particularly in a game that had seen only one offensive TD all day (Jerry Rice) by either team. It was 3-3 at half and the defenses were so brutal the Bengals only TD came on a kick return. But believe it or not, a 16-13 lead with 3:00 minutes to go seemed like a virtual lock of a win back then - for the Bengals.

Now? I would say roughly a third of the games in the NFL end this way every weekend. Heck, with 3:00 left you may have two score changes nowadays. I don’t know if I’m even comfortable with a ten point lead with 5:00 to go today yet in the 80s, that’s a probable Gatorade bath...

Barndog

what about pre-SB championships? That might help some of the old timers.

erikthredd

@craig44 said:
trying to rank GOATs in any team sport by rings is folly.

No one here is ranking anyone by rings alone. Are you actually reading everything or are you just gonna cherry pick comments then complain?

1951WheatiesPremium

And what Tom Brady did in the Atlanta Super Bowl was both incredible and historic. I take nothing away from it. But it doesn’t hold a candle to what Joe Montana did that day in my book.

Brady and the Pats had a dreadful first half and spectacular finish while Matt Ryan and the Falcons did the exact opposite. It resembled a video game in a lot of ways.

In a game where neither team could score for 57 minutes other than two busted coverages - 1 Bengal pass coverage and one 49er kick coverage, Joe Montana lead a drive the length of the field in 2:30 seconds to win the Super Bowl.

And it looked like football.

craig44

nope, reading it all, but rings keep getting brought up. team accomplishments are not an accurate way to rank players. its just that simple. was Steve Young suddenly a better player the minute after he won the super bowl? of course not. he was exactly the same player who was put into that position by playing on a great team. his ability as a player was not enhanced by winning. Many people viewed him in a different light after the win, but his ability was exactly the same before and after the game.

erikthredd

Whether you want to agree or not Rings count in this debate,as do wins,as do playoff wins. If Brady didn't have those 5 rings this comment section would be all over Joe's knob for going 4-0 in the SB.

craig44

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
And what Tom Brady did in the Atlanta Super Bowl was both incredible and historic. I take nothing away from it. But it doesn’t hold a candle to what Joe Montana did that day in my book.

Brady and the Pats had a dreadful first half and spectacular finish while Matt Ryan and the Falcons did the exact opposite. It resembled a video game in a lot of ways.

In a game where neither team could score for 57 minutes other than two busted coverages - 1 Bengal pass coverage and one 49er kick coverage, Joe Montana lead a drive the length of the field in 2:30 seconds to win the Super Bowl.

And it looked like football.

I agree, football was a very very different back then. because of rule changes, defenses cannot lock down on teams as they once did, so comebacks are much more frequent today. It is more important to have the ball last.

stevek

@erikthredd said:

@stevek said:
Joe Montana 4-0

What else does anyone need to know?

Joe Montana is the GOAT, and we all know it, except some homer Patriots fans who won't admit it.

Had I typed out Tom Brady is GOAT because he won 5 SBs then everyone and their mother would be on here whining "you can't use SBs because that is a team stat". As if a quarterback isn't doing the exact same things he does in a regular season game.

I'm not denigrating Brady's 5 Super Bowl wins, of course not, that is outstanding...however he did lose 3 and that can't just be ignored.

Brady is outstanding, that is beyond debate...Montana is simply more outstanding. Those are my choices for first (Montana) and second (Brady) place.

The #3 spot gets very tough with basically a blanket thrown on a number of them, including some who never won a Super Bowl such as Dan Marino. If I was forced to choose #3 I'd say Elway.

erikthredd

Playoffs Passing Yards
1. Tom Brady 10,226
2. Peyton Manning 7,339
3. Brett Favre 5,855
4. Joe Montana 5,772
6. John Elway 4,964
7. Dan Marino 4,510
9. Drew Brees 4,209
11. Jim Kelly 3,863
28. Dan Fouts 2,125
47. Johnny Unitas 1,663

Playoffs Passing Touchdowns
1. Tom Brady 71
2. Joe Montana 45
3. Brett Favre 44
4. Peyton Manning 40
6. Dan Marino 32
10. Drew Brees 29
11. John Elway 27
16. Jim Kelly 21
30. Dan Fouts 12
Johnny Unitas 7 (not in top 50)

Playoffs Passer Rating
Bart Starr 104.8
4. Drew Brees 100.7
7. Joe Montana 95.6
13. Tom Brady 90.9
18. Peyton Manning 87.4
21. Brett Favre 86.3
34. John Elway 79.7
38. Dan Marino 77.1
48. Jim Kelly 72.3
Dan Fouts 70.0
Johnny Unitas 68.9

Playoffs Passes Intercepted
1. Tom Brady 31
2. Brett Favre 30
3. Jim Kelly 28
5. Peyton Manning 25
7. Dan Marino 24
8. John Elway 21
9. Joe Montana 21
16. Dan Fouts 16
51. Johnny Unitas 10
Drew Brees 9

Playoffs Pass Completion Percentage
1. Matt Moore 80.6%
13. Drew Brees 65.9%
25. Peyton Manning 63.2%
31. Tom Brady 62.8%
33. Joe Montana 62.7%
49. Brett Favre 60.8%
Rest not in top 50
Jim Kelly 59.1%
Dan Marino 56.0%
Dan Fouts 55.6%
John Elway 54.5%
Johnny Unitas 53.1%

Playoff Game Winning Drives
1. Tom Brady 11
2. John Elway 6
4. Joe Montana 5
7. Dan Marino 4
11. Dan Fouts 3
12. Drew Brees 3
Johnny Unitas 2
Peyton Manning 2
Brett Favre 2
Jim Kelly 1

Playoff Fourth Quarter Comebacks
1. Tom Brady 8
2. Joe Montana 5
4. John Elway 4
9. Dan Marino 3
10. Dan Fouts 3
12. Johnny Unitas 2
17. Peyton Manning 2
19. Drew Brees 2
21. Brett Favre 2
Jim Kelly 1

craig44

@erikthredd said:
Whether you want to agree or not Rings count in this debate,as do wins,as do playoff wins. If Brady didn't have those 5 rings this comment section would be all over Joe's knob for going 4-0 in the SB.

Ok then, if rings make that big of a difference to a players ability on the field, was Steve Young a better player the moment the horn sounded and his team had won a super bowl? If your answer is no, then you must concede that winning a game has no effect either way on a players ability. we rank players on their ability, not on how good their teams are.

stevek

That Brady comeback in the Super Bowl was not only the greatest Super Bowl comeback I've ever seen, but the greatest football comeback I've ever seen. If ya truly understand the game, you'd know how almost impossible it was to make that comeback and win the game, but Brady did it.

Brady's spot at #2 on the GOAT list is well deserved.

erikthredd

@craig44 said:

@erikthredd said:
Whether you want to agree or not Rings count in this debate,as do wins,as do playoff wins. If Brady didn't have those 5 rings this comment section would be all over Joe's knob for going 4-0 in the SB.

Ok then, if rings make that big of a difference to a players ability on the field, was Steve Young a better player the moment the horn sounded and his team had won a super bowl? If your answer is no, then you must concede that winning a game has no effect either way on a players ability. we rank players on their ability, not on how good their teams are.

Steve Young is in the Hall Of Fame and it wasn't just because he won one Super Bowl.

I've already stated above what I take into consideration when deciding who belongs in this argument and,yes, won/loss records in the playoffs/super bowl counts just as much as where a guy ranks statistically in the regular season.

Its the QB's job to score points and win football games and even though you don't want to admit it,the playoffs & super bowl are still considered football games. The quarterback is doing thew same things he does during the season.

coinpalice

Brees has a chance next week to be the only the 3rd qb to beat all 32 teams
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000975492/article/drew-brees-has-chance-to-be-3rd-qb-to-beat-all-32-clubs

craig44

@stevek said:
That Brady comeback in the Super Bowl was not only the greatest Super Bowl comeback I've ever seen, but the greatest football comeback I've ever seen. If ya truly understand the game, you'd know how almost impossible it was to make that comeback and win the game, but Brady did it.

Brady's spot at #2 on the GOAT list is well deserved.

yes, it was an awesome comeback, probably the best ever, but Tom needed a lot of help to make it happen. he needed stops by the defense and turnovers. He did not do it by himself.

erikthredd

@coinpalice said:
Brees has a chance next week to be the only the 3rd qb to beat all 32 teams
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000975492/article/drew-brees-has-chance-to-be-3rd-qb-to-beat-all-32-clubs

He'd be the 4th QB after Brady,Manning & Favre. The guy that typed that article is wrong.