@craig44 said:
again, using a team accomplishment to compare players individual talent is nonsensical.
Its nonsense to think that way, players talent absolutely comes into the conversation, I’m not saying it’s all on one player but without question a certain players talent can make or break a games outcome.
of course the better teams tend to have the better players, but still, in football, there are far too many variables to consider if one is to include championships in the equation. you also have to consider defense and special teams. In addition, coaching staffs are probably more important for football teams than any of the big 4 american sports for weekly prep. The quality of a teams defense, coaching and special teams should not weigh in on the goat quarterback discussion. Could Brett Favre have won multiple rings had he played on the 1990's cowboys? How about Warren Moon, Dan Marino etc. I'm sure they could have as the cowboys had such a great and well rounded team. now why should it be a detriment to a player that he wasnt drafted by an all time great team? It should not. that stuff is out of his control
As far as player talent is concerned I will was listening to the Atlanta Super Bowl and they had guys mic’ed up and while Atlanta was in a good lead Sanu and a few other WR’s were talking and one guy asked if they felt good and Sanu states “I don’t know man they got Tom Brady” he didn’t say they “Have Belichek” or they got a great Offense or Defense he stated “They have Tom Brady”. I definitely don’t give all the credit to any Super Bowl win on a QB but in big games when your team needs a drive your better off having a Tom Brady, Montana ect than a Derek Carr or Ryan Tanehill. In other words a highly talented player will deliver most of the time
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Look at EVERY team that has won a SuperBowl over the last 20 years. There’s been lucknon the playoff journey for each.
So you're saying Brady is the LOAT?
I would say he is one of the luckiest ever, he got his chance by a random devastating hit on Bledsoe, the tuck play, and that got his career rolling. Ofcourse having that luck was able to let him develop into what he is today, had neither of those plays happened he might not ever had gotten a chance
Brady has won 5 Super Bowls. I say it's plausible that the Patriots under the GOAT head coach Bill Belichick could have won as many if not more with another good quarterback.
There have been Super Bowls won with just "good" quarterbacks or even just serviceable quarterbacks. The Eagles won it last year with Nick Foles who i consider to be just a serviceable quarterback who fortunately stepped it up in that game.
@stevek said:
Brady has won 5 Super Bowls. I say it's plausible that the Patriots under the GOAT head coach Bill Belichick could have won as many if not more with another good quarterback.
There have been Super Bowls won with just "good" quarterbacks or even just serviceable quarterbacks. The Eagles won it last year with Nick Foles who i consider to be just a serviceable quarterback who fortunately stepped it up in that game.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Look at EVERY team that has won a SuperBowl over the last 20 years. There’s been lucknon the playoff journey for each.
So you're saying Brady is the LOAT?
Hardly. Getting there consistently is proof that ‘luck’ has nothing to do with it. There is nothing lucky about repeated excellent performance. Truthfully, luck was probably a poor word choice. I guess I should have said ‘having success where it seems highly improbable to find it’...
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@stevek said:
Brady has won 5 Super Bowls. I say it's plausible that the Patriots under the GOAT head coach Bill Belichick could have won as many if not more with another good quarterback.
There have been Super Bowls won with just "good" quarterbacks or even just serviceable quarterbacks. The Eagles won it last year with Nick Foles who i consider to be just a serviceable quarterback who fortunately stepped it up in that game.
Plausible deniability Steve?
Yes, if Brady would have been stuck with average head coaches. But we're talking Bill Belichick here.
Must i post Brady's words again in which he has stated a number of times, that he would not have achieved what he has without Bill Belichick. You and others can downplay Brady's comments about Belichick all you want, but the fact is that Brady said it, and without a doubt he meant it.
@stevek said:
Brady has won 5 Super Bowls. I say it's plausible that the Patriots under the GOAT head coach Bill Belichick could have won as many if not more with another good quarterback.
There have been Super Bowls won with just "good" quarterbacks or even just serviceable quarterbacks. The Eagles won it last year with Nick Foles who i consider to be just a serviceable quarterback who fortunately stepped it up in that game.
Plausible deniability Steve?
Yes, if Brady would have been stuck with average head coaches. But we're talking Bill Belichick here.
Must i post Brady's words again in which he has stated a number of times, that he would not have achieved what he has without Bill Belichick. You and others can downplay Brady's comments about Belichick all you want, but the fact is that Brady said it, and without a doubt he meant it.
Because without a doubt you know what Brady is thinking and what he really feels 🙄
@stevek said:
Brady has won 5 Super Bowls. I say it's plausible that the Patriots under the GOAT head coach Bill Belichick could have won as many if not more with another good quarterback.
There have been Super Bowls won with just "good" quarterbacks or even just serviceable quarterbacks. The Eagles won it last year with Nick Foles who i consider to be just a serviceable quarterback who fortunately stepped it up in that game.
Plausible deniability Steve?
Yes, if Brady would have been stuck with average head coaches. But we're talking Bill Belichick here.
Must i post Brady's words again in which he has stated a number of times, that he would not have achieved what he has without Bill Belichick. You and others can downplay Brady's comments about Belichick all you want, but the fact is that Brady said it, and without a doubt he meant it.
Because without a doubt you know what Brady is thinking and what he really feels 🙄
I believe him...it is you who are calling Brady a liar, not me. LOL
@perkdog said:
And I hope that eye roll emoji is showing because I am rolling my eyes reading you Steve lol
It is showing.
You're a big fan of Brady and you've stuck with him thru thick and thin, especially with the deflategate accusations which was a bunch of nonsense, so you were absolutely right to do that. However you believe Brady on those comments, but not about his multiple comments lauding Bill Belichick?
And of course it's a different context, we all know that, but the superlatives that Brady has stated regarding Belichick, time after time, regarding the reasons for his success, it is real and it's a fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
Sorry Paul, but you win the eyeroll award in this thread. LOL
of course having an elite coaching staff at his disposal has helped brady. in the same way montana flourished under bill walsh. elite coaching prepares great players to play well.
@perkdog said:
And I hope that eye roll emoji is showing because I am rolling my eyes reading you Steve lol
It is showing.
You're a big fan of Brady and you've stuck with him thru thick and thin, especially with the deflategate accusations which was a bunch of nonsense, so you were absolutely right to do that. However you believe Brady on those comments, but not about his multiple comments lauding Bill Belichick?
And of course it's a different context, we all know that, but the superlatives that Brady has stated regarding Belichick, time after time, regarding the reasons for his success, it is real and it's a fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
Sorry Paul, but you win the eyeroll award in this thread. LOL
No, I never said he was 100% innocent, but there is a HUGE difference between being accused of something so petty and with so many variables surrounding point whatever of PSI for a football that Brady himself couldnt have doctored himself and being in front of a bunch of media personel and being asked what you think of one of your bosses lol I mean even a fast talking guy like yourself would say the same thing about one of your bosses right? I know most normal rational people would! Id like to think your a rational guy but I do have my doubts sometimes LOL
@perkdog said:
And I hope that eye roll emoji is showing because I am rolling my eyes reading you Steve lol
It is showing.
You're a big fan of Brady and you've stuck with him thru thick and thin, especially with the deflategate accusations which was a bunch of nonsense, so you were absolutely right to do that. However you believe Brady on those comments, but not about his multiple comments lauding Bill Belichick?
And of course it's a different context, we all know that, but the superlatives that Brady has stated regarding Belichick, time after time, regarding the reasons for his success, it is real and it's a fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
Sorry Paul, but you win the eyeroll award in this thread. LOL
No, I never said he was 100% innocent, but there is a HUGE difference between being accused of something so petty and with so many variables surrounding point whatever of PSI for a football that Brady himself couldnt have doctored himself and being in front of a bunch of media personel and being asked what you think of one of your bosses lol I mean even a fast talking guy like yourself would say the same thing about one of your bosses right? I know most normal rational people would! Id like to think your a rational guy but I do have my doubts sometimes LOL
Paul, your hero worship of Tom Brady is obvious, and that's okay, i respect that. However you really should just admit that your infatuation with Tom Brady interferes with your rational judgment, and that's understandable for a QB who has helped take your team to 8 Super Bowls.
You don't personally like Bill Belichick and you overly like Tom Brady...we get it. I have no ax to grind either way. I've stated before that I'm a fan of both except when they play the Eagles. I'm the "rational" one here taking Tom Brady at his word. Brady is a multi-millionaire and doesn't need to do anything he doesn't wish to do, and if his remarks weren't sincere and truthful about Bill Belichick, then he simply wouldn't say it. This is quite easy to understand if you're objective, which you normally are except when it comes to Tom Brady.
Hey, I'd like to be in your shoes with an Eagles QB who has been to 8 Super Bowls. Hopefully one day it will happen with Carson Wentz.
@craig44 said:
of course having an elite coaching staff at his disposal has helped brady. in the same way montana flourished under bill walsh. elite coaching prepares great players to play well.
No doubt about it...when the QB has the tenacity and willingness to do what it takes to succeed, which defines both Montana and Brady.
@perkdog said:
And I hope that eye roll emoji is showing because I am rolling my eyes reading you Steve lol
It is showing.
You're a big fan of Brady and you've stuck with him thru thick and thin, especially with the deflategate accusations which was a bunch of nonsense, so you were absolutely right to do that. However you believe Brady on those comments, but not about his multiple comments lauding Bill Belichick?
And of course it's a different context, we all know that, but the superlatives that Brady has stated regarding Belichick, time after time, regarding the reasons for his success, it is real and it's a fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
Sorry Paul, but you win the eyeroll award in this thread. LOL
No, I never said he was 100% innocent, but there is a HUGE difference between being accused of something so petty and with so many variables surrounding point whatever of PSI for a football that Brady himself couldnt have doctored himself and being in front of a bunch of media personel and being asked what you think of one of your bosses lol I mean even a fast talking guy like yourself would say the same thing about one of your bosses right? I know most normal rational people would! Id like to think your a rational guy but I do have my doubts sometimes LOL
Paul, your hero worship of Tom Brady is obvious, and that's okay, i respect that. However you really should just admit that your infatuation with Tom Brady interferes with your rational judgment, and that's understandable for a QB who has helped take your team to 8 Super Bowls.
You don't personally like Bill Belichick and you overly like Tom Brady...we get it. I have no ax to grind either way. I've stated before that I'm a fan of both except when they play the Eagles. I'm the "rational" one here taking Tom Brady at his word. Brady is a multi-millionaire and doesn't need to do anything he doesn't wish to do, and if his remarks weren't sincere and truthful about Bill Belichick, then he simply wouldn't say it. This is quite easy to understand if you're objective, which you normally are except when it comes to Tom Brady.
Hey, I'd like to be in your shoes with an Eagles QB who has been to 8 Super Bowls. Hopefully one day it will happen with Carson Wentz.
He really is a Hero on the football field. As far as Wentz, you best stick to hoping he can keep his knee working, and no more reckless play by him!
@perkdog said:
And I hope that eye roll emoji is showing because I am rolling my eyes reading you Steve lol
It is showing.
You're a big fan of Brady and you've stuck with him thru thick and thin, especially with the deflategate accusations which was a bunch of nonsense, so you were absolutely right to do that. However you believe Brady on those comments, but not about his multiple comments lauding Bill Belichick?
And of course it's a different context, we all know that, but the superlatives that Brady has stated regarding Belichick, time after time, regarding the reasons for his success, it is real and it's a fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
Sorry Paul, but you win the eyeroll award in this thread. LOL
No, I never said he was 100% innocent, but there is a HUGE difference between being accused of something so petty and with so many variables surrounding point whatever of PSI for a football that Brady himself couldnt have doctored himself and being in front of a bunch of media personel and being asked what you think of one of your bosses lol I mean even a fast talking guy like yourself would say the same thing about one of your bosses right? I know most normal rational people would! Id like to think your a rational guy but I do have my doubts sometimes LOL
Paul, your hero worship of Tom Brady is obvious, and that's okay, i respect that. However you really should just admit that your infatuation with Tom Brady interferes with your rational judgment, and that's understandable for a QB who has helped take your team to 8 Super Bowls.
You don't personally like Bill Belichick and you overly like Tom Brady...we get it. I have no ax to grind either way. I've stated before that I'm a fan of both except when they play the Eagles. I'm the "rational" one here taking Tom Brady at his word. Brady is a multi-millionaire and doesn't need to do anything he doesn't wish to do, and if his remarks weren't sincere and truthful about Bill Belichick, then he simply wouldn't say it. This is quite easy to understand if you're objective, which you normally are except when it comes to Tom Brady.
Hey, I'd like to be in your shoes with an Eagles QB who has been to 8 Super Bowls. Hopefully one day it will happen with Carson Wentz.
He really is a Hero on the football field. As far as Wentz, you best stick to hoping he can keep his knee working, and no more reckless play by him!
Tough to stop a thoroughbred from running...but I agree with ya on that.
the one thing that amazes me about Brady -- and i rarely ever see this talked about -- is his durability. outside of 2008 when he got hurt in week 1, he has missed a grand total of 5 games in 17 seasons. and the reason that's so remarkable to me is because when the guy runs, he honestly looks like someone who should have been permanently trucked over many moons ago. yet he almost always exits games unscathed, relatively speaking. in today's NFL, that's unreal. his offensive line does not receive nearly enough credit for keeping him upright, imo.
think about it, when the greatness of the Patriots is talked about, when's the last time someone even mentioned the big uglies up front? it's a thankless position to play.
@Brick said:
Enlightened fans recognize when team accomplishments are the result of a star player. Example. Cavaliers with LeBron, four straight trips to the NBA Finals. One tremendous upset to win a title. This year without LeBron they will be lucky to win 20 games. How good would the Pats be without Brady? Packers without Rodgers? Chiefs without Mahomes?
Lebron dosen't win it every year, only when he has good teammates.
Would the Patriots have won more or less Super bowls with Dan Marino or Joe Montana instead of Brady? No way to know.
Several average QBs have won Super Bowls, it's a team game, QB might be the most important position, but he can't win it alone.
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@Brick said:
Enlightened fans recognize when team accomplishments are the result of a star player. Example. Cavaliers with LeBron, four straight trips to the NBA Finals. One tremendous upset to win a title. This year without LeBron they will be lucky to win 20 games. How good would the Pats be without Brady? Packers without Rodgers? Chiefs without Mahomes?
Lebron dosen't win it every year, only when he has good teammates.
Would the Patriots have won more or less Super bowls with Dan Marino or Joe Montana instead of Brady? No way to know.
Several average QBs have won Super Bowls, it's a team game, QB might be the most important position, but he can't win it alone.
That’s why it’s so tough to gauge whether or not a QB deserves the most credit for a Super Bowl, sure Trent Dilfer won one but had he been the QB for the Pats in the Atlanta Super Bowl there is no way the Pats would have won or come from behind like they did. I think in some situations the QB deserves the credit in others he doesn’t but beingbin the Super Bowl 8 times in 18 years has a lot to do with Brady in my opinion.
being in the Super Bowl 8 times in 18 years has a lot to do with Brady in my opinion.
Agreed. Also Belichick, the coaching staff and ownership plus 21 (more really) other players. But yes Brady did things Dilfer or Brad Johnson would not have been able to do.
ALL the other top teams have had good coaching/ownership; Dallas, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Miami, Denver and even a couple of teams that didn't win Super Bowls Buffalo and Minnesota.
Look at the coaches and the defenses represented in that list, plus they all had good to great QB's!
A team like the Bears or the Buccaneers can jump up and win it all, but the teams that have had long term success had greatness at all levels. That's my point on it being a team game.
For the record, I don't say Brady shouldn't be considered a GOAT, but there are others that could you can make a good case for. Brees certainly has performed as well in the regular season.
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In a larger sense, here’s part of the problem Brady runs into, also.
Athletes are a different product, now, too. They’re often a brand unto themselves, as is the case with Tom. They are now a commodity in a fantasy sense. We have more information available in new and improved ways which leads to new insights AND often times paralysis by analysis.
Guys playing in the 50s had side jobs.
Guys playing in the 80s started cracking a million.
Guys in the 10s started running the teams and deciding how hard they want to play each game.
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I see what your saying and definitely agree but I still say with such a high level of competition and the speed of the game it’s much harder now in some aspects, I still think it can be brutal getting hit by much faster and stronger guys that it’s actually potentially more vicious than the legal cheap shots of yesteryear.
@perkdog said:
I see what your saying and definitely agree but I still say with such a high level of competition and the speed of the game it’s much harder now in some aspects, I still think it can be brutal getting hit by much faster and stronger guys that it’s actually potentially more vicious than the legal cheap shots of yesteryear.
Have to disagree here. Did you ever watch an Oakland/Kansas City game in the 1970's?
Once saw Ben Davidson "spear" Len Dawson in the lower back as he was on the ground after the play was dead. Davidson also punched Joe Namath in the face so hard it knocked off his helmet and broke a bone in his face.
There is no comparison to the cheap shots that were taken back in the day and the hits of today. Especially now that the defenders are being told not to fall on the QB when sacking them.
I will concede that playing on this idiotic carpeted concrete has got to be much worse for ALL the players being tackled.
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@perkdog said:
I see what your saying and definitely agree but I still say with such a high level of competition and the speed of the game it’s much harder now in some aspects, I still think it can be brutal getting hit by much faster and stronger guys that it’s actually potentially more vicious than the legal cheap shots of yesteryear.
Have to disagree here. Did you ever watch an Oakland/Kansas City game in the 1970's?
Once saw Ben Davidson "spear" Len Dawson in the lower back as he was on the ground after the play was dead. Davidson also punched Joe Namath in the face so hard it knocked off his helmet and broke a bone in his face.
There is no comparison to the cheap shots that were taken back in the day and the hits of today. Especially now that the defenders are being told not to fall on the QB when sacking them.
I will concede that playing on this idiotic carpeted concrete has got to be much worse for ALL the players being tackled.
I’ve seen enough highlights and film to know that the game has always been absolutely brutal, my point was that a 4.4 275 pound linebacker is something the NFL has never seen until around 15 years ago or so. My point is that the players are faster and bigger, and I’d rather get hit by a 240 pound guy than an athletic 275 pounder, that in itself is something to consider regardless of the rules in place, your still going to get hit and tackled. The early 70’s and even past that was definitely “Vicious” in its own right and it was horrific playing on that original Astro turf btw
@GRANDAM said:
Yes but is hard to argue with all of Tom Brady’s Super Bowl Rings,
That is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement. Super Bowl rings are about as good a metric to compare Quarterbacks as Wins are to comparing pitchers.
@GRANDAM said:
Yes but is hard to argue with all of Tom Brady’s Super Bowl Rings,
That is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement. Super Bowl rings are about as good a metric to compare Quarterbacks as Wins are to comparing pitchers.
Agreed. But not many here seem to feel the same. Brady and Montana look to be the top 2 for most posters. Both could be the GOAT, but to me Marino was every bit as good or better.
You could make the claim that a pitcher in baseball has more control over a game than a QB.
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@Brick said:
I was told by an expert in coaching that young men in the mid 1960s were bigger, stronger, faster, much better athletes than anyone ever.
That expert is flat out wrong Ralph, nobody can dispute that the athletes of today are the best ever, the training and sciences behind it are so far advanced it’s freakish.
@GRANDAM said:
Yes but is hard to argue with all of Tom Brady’s Super Bowl Rings,
That is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement. Super Bowl rings are about as good a metric to compare Quarterbacks as Wins are to comparing pitchers.
Agreed. But not many here seem to feel the same. Brady and Montana look to be the top 2 for most posters. Both could be the GOAT, but to me Marino was every bit as good or better.
You could make the claim that a pitcher in baseball has more control over a game than a QB.
this is true. an ace pitcher can completely shut down 1/2 of the game nearly by himself. look at the high strikeout games throughout history. when a pitcher gets 17+ K's, even the defense doesnt get that involved. A quarterback however is unable to solely control much. he is reliant on a well functioning OL to get time. he also is reliant on his receivers getting seperation to get open. there is a lot the QB cannot control. Too much in fact to let SB rings become a part of the conversation.
If we were talking about forming some generic list? Maybe you throw out postseason and SuperBowls. We’re not, though. It’s the greatest quarterback of all time. There isn’t supposed to be one clear cut answer. There should be room for debate. Marino (deservedly) came up. So did a plethora of other great guys...
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I think Marino is definitely one of the top quarterbacks. I would dare say that if you took SB rings out of the equation (as they should be for a player comparison) that he probably was a better QB than Montana. Remember, Montana had a pro bowl running back to take pressure off him as well as throwing to the greatest wide out of all time. Marino never had a great back, it was just the Dan show. he was so prolific for the 80's it was almost a Ruth like performance.
but...he gets little attention as a possible number one quarterback of all time because of an accomplishment he did not have control of.
@GRANDAM said:
Yes but is hard to argue with all of Tom Brady’s Super Bowl Rings,
That is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement. Super Bowl rings are about as good a metric to compare Quarterbacks as Wins are to comparing pitchers.
Team accomplishment,,,,,, all sports are Team accomplishments.
When you talk about the best CHAMPIONSHIPS are a HUGE factor.
A quarterback who has (5) Super Bowl rings and is at or near the top in the statiscs has to be rated higher than a quarterback with the same stats and no or less than (5) rings.
Being the GOAT is about being the best,,,,,,, you can't be the best without Championships.
For this reason I rate Brady higher than Manning even though I am a COLTS Fan.
I am a Brady Fan also,,,,,,, unless he is playing INDY.
@craig44 said:
I think Marino is definitely one of the top quarterbacks....
but...he gets little attention as a possible number one quarterback of all time because of an accomplishment he did not have control of.
He got there in 1984 as the MVP of the league toting a 14-2 record. He lost in that game and played a below average game for Dan Marino.
After that, his desire to set and break records and to be the highest paid player in the NFL trumped his desire to win. When he could have left Miami to win (or stayed and take less), he stayed put to get the biggest possible check instead and throw it 40 times a game.
Great player and GOAT candidate for many but with a better performance in the SuperBowl that he did get to, he is a champion and moves up the list. Instead, he never won, his records continue to fall and his name will be nearly forgotten in another 25 years...
...because when you evaluate Dan Marino most of the ‘greatness’ was statistical. Not winning related.
Unless the question is who has the most wins without a SuperBowl?
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@craig44 said:
I think Marino is definitely one of the top quarterbacks....
but...he gets little attention as a possible number one quarterback of all time because of an accomplishment he did not have control of.
He got there in 1984 as the MVP of the league toting a 14-2 record. He lost in that game and played a below average game for Dan Marino.
After that, his desire to set and break records and to be the highest paid player in the NFL trumped his desire to win. When he could have left Miami to win (or stayed and take less), he stayed put to get the biggest possible check instead and throw it 40 times a game.
Great player and GOAT candidate for many but with a better performance in the SuperBowl that he did get to, he is a champion and moves up the list. Instead, he never won, his records continue to fall and his name will be nearly forgotten in another 25 years...
...because when you evaluate Dan Marino most of the ‘greatness’ was statistical. Not winning related.
Unless the question is who has the most wins without a SuperBowl?
So, Terry Bradshaw GOAT?
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Championships may not be the only thing that makes one the GOAT, but I think it is quite important in the discussion. A player who leads his team to a championship that his team couldn't even sniff without him is showing his greatness.
@Brick said:
Championships may not be the only thing that makes one the GOAT, but I think it is quite important in the discussion. A player who leads his team to a championship that his team couldn't even sniff without him is showing his greatness.
Agreed, do you have a specific example of a QB leading a bad team to a championship?
There are certainly examples of average QBs who won because of great teams. Dilfer and Johnson come to mind.
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Comments
100% agreed about luck, there is zero question a team has to have some form of luck on their side, Ive never questioned that.
Its nonsense to think that way, players talent absolutely comes into the conversation, I’m not saying it’s all on one player but without question a certain players talent can make or break a games outcome.
of course the better teams tend to have the better players, but still, in football, there are far too many variables to consider if one is to include championships in the equation. you also have to consider defense and special teams. In addition, coaching staffs are probably more important for football teams than any of the big 4 american sports for weekly prep. The quality of a teams defense, coaching and special teams should not weigh in on the goat quarterback discussion. Could Brett Favre have won multiple rings had he played on the 1990's cowboys? How about Warren Moon, Dan Marino etc. I'm sure they could have as the cowboys had such a great and well rounded team. now why should it be a detriment to a player that he wasnt drafted by an all time great team? It should not. that stuff is out of his control
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So you're saying Brady is the LOAT?
As far as player talent is concerned I will was listening to the Atlanta Super Bowl and they had guys mic’ed up and while Atlanta was in a good lead Sanu and a few other WR’s were talking and one guy asked if they felt good and Sanu states “I don’t know man they got Tom Brady” he didn’t say they “Have Belichek” or they got a great Offense or Defense he stated “They have Tom Brady”. I definitely don’t give all the credit to any Super Bowl win on a QB but in big games when your team needs a drive your better off having a Tom Brady, Montana ect than a Derek Carr or Ryan Tanehill. In other words a highly talented player will deliver most of the time
I would say he is one of the luckiest ever, he got his chance by a random devastating hit on Bledsoe, the tuck play, and that got his career rolling. Ofcourse having that luck was able to let him develop into what he is today, had neither of those plays happened he might not ever had gotten a chance
that is anecdotal evidence.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Brady has won 5 Super Bowls. I say it's plausible that the Patriots under the GOAT head coach Bill Belichick could have won as many if not more with another good quarterback.
There have been Super Bowls won with just "good" quarterbacks or even just serviceable quarterbacks. The Eagles won it last year with Nick Foles who i consider to be just a serviceable quarterback who fortunately stepped it up in that game.
Plausible deniability Steve?
Hardly. Getting there consistently is proof that ‘luck’ has nothing to do with it. There is nothing lucky about repeated excellent performance. Truthfully, luck was probably a poor word choice. I guess I should have said ‘having success where it seems highly improbable to find it’...
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Yes, if Brady would have been stuck with average head coaches. But we're talking Bill Belichick here.
Must i post Brady's words again in which he has stated a number of times, that he would not have achieved what he has without Bill Belichick. You and others can downplay Brady's comments about Belichick all you want, but the fact is that Brady said it, and without a doubt he meant it.
Because without a doubt you know what Brady is thinking and what he really feels 🙄
And I hope that eye roll emoji is showing because I am rolling my eyes reading you Steve lol
I believe him...it is you who are calling Brady a liar, not me. LOL
It is showing.
You're a big fan of Brady and you've stuck with him thru thick and thin, especially with the deflategate accusations which was a bunch of nonsense, so you were absolutely right to do that. However you believe Brady on those comments, but not about his multiple comments lauding Bill Belichick?
And of course it's a different context, we all know that, but the superlatives that Brady has stated regarding Belichick, time after time, regarding the reasons for his success, it is real and it's a fact, whether you wish to accept it or not.
Sorry Paul, but you win the eyeroll award in this thread. LOL
of course having an elite coaching staff at his disposal has helped brady. in the same way montana flourished under bill walsh. elite coaching prepares great players to play well.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, I never said he was 100% innocent, but there is a HUGE difference between being accused of something so petty and with so many variables surrounding point whatever of PSI for a football that Brady himself couldnt have doctored himself and being in front of a bunch of media personel and being asked what you think of one of your bosses lol I mean even a fast talking guy like yourself would say the same thing about one of your bosses right? I know most normal rational people would! Id like to think your a rational guy but I do have my doubts sometimes LOL
Paul, your hero worship of Tom Brady is obvious, and that's okay, i respect that. However you really should just admit that your infatuation with Tom Brady interferes with your rational judgment, and that's understandable for a QB who has helped take your team to 8 Super Bowls.
You don't personally like Bill Belichick and you overly like Tom Brady...we get it. I have no ax to grind either way. I've stated before that I'm a fan of both except when they play the Eagles. I'm the "rational" one here taking Tom Brady at his word. Brady is a multi-millionaire and doesn't need to do anything he doesn't wish to do, and if his remarks weren't sincere and truthful about Bill Belichick, then he simply wouldn't say it. This is quite easy to understand if you're objective, which you normally are except when it comes to Tom Brady.
Hey, I'd like to be in your shoes with an Eagles QB who has been to 8 Super Bowls. Hopefully one day it will happen with Carson Wentz.
No doubt about it...when the QB has the tenacity and willingness to do what it takes to succeed, which defines both Montana and Brady.
He really is a Hero on the football field. As far as Wentz, you best stick to hoping he can keep his knee working, and no more reckless play by him!
Tough to stop a thoroughbred from running...but I agree with ya on that.
Don’t get me wrong Steve, I really like Wentz, I think he has all the tools to be a great franchise QB, and will be/is very good
the one thing that amazes me about Brady -- and i rarely ever see this talked about -- is his durability. outside of 2008 when he got hurt in week 1, he has missed a grand total of 5 games in 17 seasons. and the reason that's so remarkable to me is because when the guy runs, he honestly looks like someone who should have been permanently trucked over many moons ago. yet he almost always exits games unscathed, relatively speaking. in today's NFL, that's unreal. his offensive line does not receive nearly enough credit for keeping him upright, imo.
think about it, when the greatness of the Patriots is talked about, when's the last time someone even mentioned the big uglies up front? it's a thankless position to play.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Lebron dosen't win it every year, only when he has good teammates.
Would the Patriots have won more or less Super bowls with Dan Marino or Joe Montana instead of Brady? No way to know.
Several average QBs have won Super Bowls, it's a team game, QB might be the most important position, but he can't win it alone.
That’s why it’s so tough to gauge whether or not a QB deserves the most credit for a Super Bowl, sure Trent Dilfer won one but had he been the QB for the Pats in the Atlanta Super Bowl there is no way the Pats would have won or come from behind like they did. I think in some situations the QB deserves the credit in others he doesn’t but beingbin the Super Bowl 8 times in 18 years has a lot to do with Brady in my opinion.
being in the Super Bowl 8 times in 18 years has a lot to do with Brady in my opinion.
Agreed. Also Belichick, the coaching staff and ownership plus 21 (more really) other players. But yes Brady did things Dilfer or Brad Johnson would not have been able to do.
ALL the other top teams have had good coaching/ownership; Dallas, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Miami, Denver and even a couple of teams that didn't win Super Bowls Buffalo and Minnesota.
Look at the coaches and the defenses represented in that list, plus they all had good to great QB's!
A team like the Bears or the Buccaneers can jump up and win it all, but the teams that have had long term success had greatness at all levels. That's my point on it being a team game.
For the record, I don't say Brady shouldn't be considered a GOAT, but there are others that could you can make a good case for. Brees certainly has performed as well in the regular season.
I think you had better start talking more about Brees…...he just keeps tacking on stats! And he has a ring.
Honestly I’m not sure what category people count anymore lol
I know. Brees reminds me of Marino only Brees has a ring...…..might have 2 after this season. They look very good!
In a larger sense, here’s part of the problem Brady runs into, also.
Athletes are a different product, now, too. They’re often a brand unto themselves, as is the case with Tom. They are now a commodity in a fantasy sense. We have more information available in new and improved ways which leads to new insights AND often times paralysis by analysis.
Guys playing in the 50s had side jobs.
Guys playing in the 80s started cracking a million.
Guys in the 10s started running the teams and deciding how hard they want to play each game.
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I see what your saying and definitely agree but I still say with such a high level of competition and the speed of the game it’s much harder now in some aspects, I still think it can be brutal getting hit by much faster and stronger guys that it’s actually potentially more vicious than the legal cheap shots of yesteryear.
I know Peyton Manning isn't the GOAT but he is in the Top 3.
I saw him drafted by Indianapolis and saw every game he played in the NFL including Denver.
I was happy to see him win a 2nd Super Bowl in Denver and still think he was treated badly when he was let go by Indy.
I know the Colts got Andrew Luck after they let Peyton go and it was the right decision but just wish it didn't have to be that way.
I was glad Peyton came back and retired as a Colt.
Have to disagree here. Did you ever watch an Oakland/Kansas City game in the 1970's?
Once saw Ben Davidson "spear" Len Dawson in the lower back as he was on the ground after the play was dead. Davidson also punched Joe Namath in the face so hard it knocked off his helmet and broke a bone in his face.
There is no comparison to the cheap shots that were taken back in the day and the hits of today. Especially now that the defenders are being told not to fall on the QB when sacking them.
I will concede that playing on this idiotic carpeted concrete has got to be much worse for ALL the players being tackled.
Manning has as good a claim to being the GOAT as anyone. He was fantastic.
Yes but is hard to argue with all of Tom Brady’s Super Bowl Rings,
I’ve seen enough highlights and film to know that the game has always been absolutely brutal, my point was that a 4.4 275 pound linebacker is something the NFL has never seen until around 15 years ago or so. My point is that the players are faster and bigger, and I’d rather get hit by a 240 pound guy than an athletic 275 pounder, that in itself is something to consider regardless of the rules in place, your still going to get hit and tackled. The early 70’s and even past that was definitely “Vicious” in its own right and it was horrific playing on that original Astro turf btw
Manning is #2 on my list of best ever
That is a team accomplishment, not an individual achievement. Super Bowl rings are about as good a metric to compare Quarterbacks as Wins are to comparing pitchers.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Agreed. But not many here seem to feel the same. Brady and Montana look to be the top 2 for most posters. Both could be the GOAT, but to me Marino was every bit as good or better.
You could make the claim that a pitcher in baseball has more control over a game than a QB.
I was told by an expert in coaching that young men in the mid 1960s were bigger, stronger, faster, much better athletes than anyone ever.
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That expert is flat out wrong Ralph, nobody can dispute that the athletes of today are the best ever, the training and sciences behind it are so far advanced it’s freakish.
this is true. an ace pitcher can completely shut down 1/2 of the game nearly by himself. look at the high strikeout games throughout history. when a pitcher gets 17+ K's, even the defense doesnt get that involved. A quarterback however is unable to solely control much. he is reliant on a well functioning OL to get time. he also is reliant on his receivers getting seperation to get open. there is a lot the QB cannot control. Too much in fact to let SB rings become a part of the conversation.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If we were talking about forming some generic list? Maybe you throw out postseason and SuperBowls. We’re not, though. It’s the greatest quarterback of all time. There isn’t supposed to be one clear cut answer. There should be room for debate. Marino (deservedly) came up. So did a plethora of other great guys...
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I think Marino is definitely one of the top quarterbacks. I would dare say that if you took SB rings out of the equation (as they should be for a player comparison) that he probably was a better QB than Montana. Remember, Montana had a pro bowl running back to take pressure off him as well as throwing to the greatest wide out of all time. Marino never had a great back, it was just the Dan show. he was so prolific for the 80's it was almost a Ruth like performance.
but...he gets little attention as a possible number one quarterback of all time because of an accomplishment he did not have control of.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Team accomplishment,,,,,, all sports are Team accomplishments.
When you talk about the best CHAMPIONSHIPS are a HUGE factor.
A quarterback who has (5) Super Bowl rings and is at or near the top in the statiscs has to be rated higher than a quarterback with the same stats and no or less than (5) rings.
Being the GOAT is about being the best,,,,,,, you can't be the best without Championships.
For this reason I rate Brady higher than Manning even though I am a COLTS Fan.
I am a Brady Fan also,,,,,,, unless he is playing INDY.
He got there in 1984 as the MVP of the league toting a 14-2 record. He lost in that game and played a below average game for Dan Marino.
After that, his desire to set and break records and to be the highest paid player in the NFL trumped his desire to win. When he could have left Miami to win (or stayed and take less), he stayed put to get the biggest possible check instead and throw it 40 times a game.
Great player and GOAT candidate for many but with a better performance in the SuperBowl that he did get to, he is a champion and moves up the list. Instead, he never won, his records continue to fall and his name will be nearly forgotten in another 25 years...
...because when you evaluate Dan Marino most of the ‘greatness’ was statistical. Not winning related.
Unless the question is who has the most wins without a SuperBowl?
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So, Terry Bradshaw GOAT?
Championships may not be the only thing that makes one the GOAT, but I think it is quite important in the discussion. A player who leads his team to a championship that his team couldn't even sniff without him is showing his greatness.
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Agreed, do you have a specific example of a QB leading a bad team to a championship?
There are certainly examples of average QBs who won because of great teams. Dilfer and Johnson come to mind.
Marino then Tarkenton.