Montana had two years in a row where his offense was only able to score three points total in each playoff game and that was with the 5th ranked offense in 85 and the 7th ranked offense in 86. Those offenses were stacked with guys like Jerry Rice,Roger Craig & Dwight Clark.
Joe had four great Super Bowl performances but he also had his share of bad playoff games as well.
So again:
Brady had better regular season winning percentage and better post season W%. If winning is a criteria in this debate, then there is no debate in that area. Period.
Add that Brady won MORE Super Bowls...then the people who are using winning as a criteria for Montana's case need to move on to another criteria because they have lost that one in a resounding fashion.
So many people want to penalize Brady because he was able to win the playoff games that led to making the SB yet want to always say its because he had a great team.
Peyton Manning had nine seasons where he led his team to the playoffs yet couldn't win a single game then people make excuses like "he didn't have a good team."
His team's record during those years?
1999 13-3...#2 seed...lost at home
2000 10-6
2002 10-6
2005 14-2....#1 seed ....lost at home
2007 13-3.....#2 seed....lost at home
2008 12-4
2010 10-6....lost at home
2012 13-3.... #1 seed...lost at home
2014 12-4.... #2 seed...lost at home
Manning had plenty of really good teams and home field advantage yet still couldn't beat a lesser opponent.
I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
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I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
Joe & his offense still sucked when they had arguably two GOAT candidates at two positions. Brady played back to back seasons recently where he faced All-Time-ish defenses in the playoffs with the 2014 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos and his offense did much better than just three points.
People, wins and losses are a TEAM achievement, not an individual one. You cannot rank players individual talent with a collective stat. Baseball statisticians figured this out years ago with pitcher win/loss records.
I’m not letting that sneak by. They were good defenses both of them.
The 1985-86 Giants defense? You really going there?
Your very smart and credible 99% of the time, @Skin2
Please stay that way.
I’m not here knocking Tom Brady but speaking up for Joe Montana. I first posted on the topic because the statement was made that Tom Brady was the GOAT and it’s not debatable.
That’s ridiculous. Still is. Tom Brady is a fine choice. So is Joe Montana. And since we’re debating it right now and many people have weighed in with differing opinions?
Um...game over, no?
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I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
This is funny. So when they lose its because the other team was good and not his fault...but when they win it was Joe Montana who won the SUper Bowl? I get it...and understand why you don't quite get it.
Just the other day i was thinking, is there a topic in America where there could be 90% agreement? With Brady having the best regular season winning percentage, most regular season total wins, best post season winning percentage, most post season wins, and most Super Bowls...proclaiming Brady the greatest winning QB in modern football is about as close to a slam dunk truth as there is.
There are other things to consider, but those are harder and take more work. It is a slam dunk to point out that Brady was the greatest winning QB in modern football history.
And Perkdog, right back at you my friend. I will also point out that Perkdog would always be the first one to point out if Brady could not get it done and pin it on Brady for the years they didn't win the superbowl. That is consistency and a fairness in evaluation...a rare quality.
I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
Joe & his offense still sucked when they had arguably two GOAT candidates at two positions. Brady played back to back seasons recently where he faced All-Time-ish defenses in the playoffs with the 2014 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos and his offense did much better than just three points.
I'm sorry, but modern QB's have never faced defenses like the 85 Bears and 86 Giants. not necessarily because of athletic talent, but because the secondary was allowed to hang onto receivers and Linemen were able to deliver much more violent blows to Quarterbacks. the seahawks and broncos were both good defenses, but due to rules were limited in their effectiveness.
I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
This is funny. So when they lose its because the other team was good and not his fault...but when they win it was Joe Montana who won the SUper Bowl? I get it...and understand why you don't quite get it.
Just the other day i was thinking, is there a topic in America where there could be 90% agreement? With Brady having the best regular season winning percentage, most regular season total wins, best post season winning percentage, most post season wins, and most Super Bowls...proclaiming Brady the greatest winning QB in modern football is about as close to a slam dunk truth as there is.
There are other things to consider, but those are harder and take more work. It is a slam dunk to point out that Brady was the greatest winning QB in modern football history.
And Perkdog, right back at you my friend. I will also point out that Perkdog would always be the first one to point out if Brady could not get it done and pin it on Brady for the years they didn't win the superbowl. That is consistency and a fairness in evaluation...a rare quality.
Man, you excel at changing the conversation when you are flat out wrong, huh?
That’s like your move. Quick! Opine on Ryan Howard again so you can be right.
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I’m not letting that sneak by. They were good defenses both of them.
The 1985-86 Giants defense? You really going there?
Your very smart and credible 99% of the time, @Skin2
Please stay that way.
I’m not here knocking Tom Brady but speaking up for Joe Montana. I first posted on the topic because the statement was made that Tom Brady was the GOAT and it’s not debatable.
That’s ridiculous. Still is. Tom Brady is a fine choice. So is Joe Montana. And since we’re debating it right now and many people have weighed in with differing opinions?
Um...game over, no?
Many NFL sites & experts consider the 2013-14 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos top 10 defenses of all time,some even putting them top 5 with the mid 80's Bears,late 80's Giants & the early 2000's Ravens.
Its hilarious that one Pats fan here is so adamant that Brady is GOAT yet you guys keep arguing with him even though this debate is entirely opinion based. What's the point of debating it with him when you're not changing his stance and he's not changing yours?
I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
This is funny. So when they lose its because the other team was good and not his fault...but when they win it was Joe Montana who won the SUper Bowl? I get it...and understand why you don't quite get it.
Just the other day i was thinking, is there a topic in America where there could be 90% agreement? With Brady having the best regular season winning percentage, most regular season total wins, best post season winning percentage, most post season wins, and most Super Bowls...proclaiming Brady the greatest winning QB in modern football is about as close to a slam dunk truth as there is.
There are other things to consider, but those are harder and take more work. It is a slam dunk to point out that Brady was the greatest winning QB in modern football history.
And Perkdog, right back at you my friend. I will also point out that Perkdog would always be the first one to point out if Brady could not get it done and pin it on Brady for the years they didn't win the superbowl. That is consistency and a fairness in evaluation...a rare quality.
I appreciate that and it’s the truth. I was furious over them losing against the Giants the 2nd time and still am, I remember fuming at him on his idiotic throw to the middle of the field with nobody around and it cost the team a safety. Heck from 2007 till that gift wrapped victory against that moron Pete Carroll I stated the Pats were overrated during that time span, they Wasted a lot of good years and Brady gets his fair share of the blame from me as well as Belichek. Those were prime years and he didn’t win with arguably better teams than he had in 2003 & 2004 BUT he soldiered on and brought the Pats two more Super Bowls.
I’m not letting that sneak by. They were good defenses both of them.
The 1985-86 Giants defense? You really going there?
Your very smart and credible 99% of the time, @Skin2
Please stay that way.
I’m not here knocking Tom Brady but speaking up for Joe Montana. I first posted on the topic because the statement was made that Tom Brady was the GOAT and it’s not debatable.
That’s ridiculous. Still is. Tom Brady is a fine choice. So is Joe Montana. And since we’re debating it right now and many people have weighed in with differing opinions?
Um...game over, no?
Many NFL sites & experts consider the 2013-14 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos top 10 defenses of all time,some even putting them top 5 with the mid 80's Bears,late 80's Giants & the early 2000's Ravens.
Its hilarious that one Pats fan here is so adamant that Brady is GOAT yet you guys keep arguing with him even though this debate is entirely opinion based. What's the point of debating it with him when you're not changing his stance and he's not changing yours?
Personally? I like reading and writing about this stuff. It is all opinion based and debatable - that’s the fun of it!
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I’m not letting that sneak by. They were good defenses both of them.
The 1985-86 Giants defense? You really going there?
Your very smart and credible 99% of the time, @Skin2
Please stay that way.
I’m not here knocking Tom Brady but speaking up for Joe Montana. I first posted on the topic because the statement was made that Tom Brady was the GOAT and it’s not debatable.
That’s ridiculous. Still is. Tom Brady is a fine choice. So is Joe Montana. And since we’re debating it right now and many people have weighed in with differing opinions?
Um...game over, no?
Many NFL sites & experts consider the 2013-14 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos top 10 defenses of all time,some even putting them top 5 with the mid 80's Bears,late 80's Giants & the early 2000's Ravens.
Its hilarious that one Pats fan here is so adamant that Brady is GOAT yet you guys keep arguing with him even though this debate is entirely opinion based. What's the point of debating it with him when you're not changing his stance and he's not changing yours?
Personally? I like reading and writing about this stuff. It is all opinion based and debatable - that’s the fun of it!
It can be at times but from a Pats fan standpoint we've basically been hearing the exact same argument points for many years now lol.
Let's tell it like it is...New England area fans are chirping like birdies because of the successful run of the Patriots and now the Red Sox are in the World Series.
They have a right to be happy and that's fine. However I think they are letting their homer glee interfere with their better judgment about Tom Brady over Joe Montana. Now they're saying or implying that Joe Montana is a choker? Are they kidding? It's gone beyond absurd.
Unlike @skin2 who seems to be taking things no one ever said, refuting them and then taking a victory lap for winning an argument he created himself.
Tom Brady is the winningest QB of all time and this is a stupid premise and record because it presupposes that one guy is responsible for team wins. They aren’t and never have been. As for Joe taking the blame for the loss against the Giants? Well since I don’t think he deserves all the credit in wins, it stands to reaso. I don’t think he deserves all the blame in losses.
Regardless, we’re discussing greatest QB of all time not winningest. Any dope with a computer can look that up and regurgitate it - anyone.
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@stevek said:
Let's tell it like it is...New England area fans are chirping like birdies because of the successful run of the Patriots and now the Red Sox are in the World Series.
They have a right to be happy and that's fine. However I think they are letting their homer glee interfere with their better judgment about Tom Brady over Joe Montana. Now they're saying or implying that Joe Montana is a choker? Are they kidding? It's gone beyond absurd.
Oh please lol,The Eagles finally win the SB and you're in here talking trash like a kid after drinking his first beer.
And hasn't just been "now the Red Sox are in the World Series", if we're keeping count,and us new englanders are,there's been three World Series titles,one NBA Finals trophy & one Stanley Cup trophy for our local Pro teams in the past 14 years, all on top of the five Lombardi trophies since 2001.
You better enjoy that SB win and grab a Snickers bar.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Unlike @skin2 who seems to be taking things no one ever said, refuting them and then taking a victory lap for winning an argument he created himself.
Tom Brady is the winningest QB of all time and this is a stupid premise and record because it presupposes that one guy is responsible for team wins. They aren’t and never have been. As for Joe taking the blame for the loss against the Giants? Well since I don’t think he deserves all the credit in wins, it stands to reaso. I don’t think he deserves all the blame in losses.
Regardless, we’re discussing greatest QB of all time not winningest. Any dope with a computer can look that up and regurgitate it - anyone.
Except its not just a dope with a computer talking about it, its the NFL game announcers,its the NFL's website and literally every other sports site with football content,its in thousands of comment sections. This debate as been going on for over 10 years now not just this past week in the PSA Forum.
You nonPats fans are all the same "you can't use playoffs/SB success or wins in the GOAT debate" then 10 minutes later you're all bragging how Joe Montana went 4-0 in the SB because other than Joe's 4-0,there is nothing else to point to as to why he should be GOAT. His career stats aren't all that great because he only played so many years due to injury. Then you'll want to penalize Brady for playing into his 40's like this is somehow a negative.
I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
This is funny. So when they lose its because the other team was good and not his fault...but when they win it was Joe Montana who won the SUper Bowl? I get it...and understand why you don't quite get it.
Just the other day i was thinking, is there a topic in America where there could be 90% agreement? With Brady having the best regular season winning percentage, most regular season total wins, best post season winning percentage, most post season wins, and most Super Bowls...proclaiming Brady the greatest winning QB in modern football is about as close to a slam dunk truth as there is.
There are other things to consider, but those are harder and take more work. It is a slam dunk to point out that Brady was the greatest winning QB in modern football history.
And Perkdog, right back at you my friend. I will also point out that Perkdog would always be the first one to point out if Brady could not get it done and pin it on Brady for the years they didn't win the superbowl. That is consistency and a fairness in evaluation...a rare quality.
Man, you excel at changing the conversation when you are flat out wrong, huh?
That’s like your move. Quick! Opine on Ryan Howard again so you can be right.
Not switching anything...just pointing out that you want it both ways. You want to give Montana the credit for winning, but blame any and everything else for when his team didn't win. That is idiocy.
As for Ryan Howard, that thought process is part of the equation from Stevek. That debate was years ago, but I havent talked to him since then...and the debate was recently settled when he fizzled like i predicted.
@stevek said:
Let's tell it like it is...New England area fans are chirping like birdies because of the successful run of the Patriots and now the Red Sox are in the World Series.
They have a right to be happy and that's fine. However I think they are letting their homer glee interfere with their better judgment about Tom Brady over Joe Montana. Now they're saying or implying that Joe Montana is a choker? Are they kidding? It's gone beyond absurd.
Oh please lol,The Eagles finally win the SB and you're in here talking trash like a kid after drinking his first beer.
And hasn't just been "now the Red Sox are in the World Series", if we're keeping count,and us new englanders are,there's been three World Series titles,one NBA Finals trophy & one Stanley Cup trophy for our local Pro teams in the past 14 years, all on top of the five Lombardi trophies since 2001.
You better enjoy that SB win and grab a Snickers bar.
Your point makes no sense for this thread. If you wish to accuse me of "talking trash" in the Mike Schmidt versus George Brett debate, that's fine, even though it wasn't true. That being said, if it could be definitely shown who is better, Montana or Brady, i really couldn't care less, which enables me to make an objective opinion. It is basically not possible for a New England fan to be objective on this matter.
I've stated many times that I'm a fan of Tom Brady, and what football fan wouldn't be a fan of Joe Montana. I saw both of them play a good number of times, and to me it's clear Joe Montana is the GOAT with Brady being second. Joe Montana is simply a better quarterback. Case closed.
You really want to go there? There are plenty of youtube videos of Eagles fans beating up fans of other teams at football games. Then there are videos of Eagles fans harassing woman walking into the stadium and of course our favorite,Eagles fans eating horse crap.
@Skin2 said:
As for Ryan Howard, that thought process is part of the equation from Stevek. That debate was years ago, but I havent talked to him since then...and the debate was recently settled when he fizzled like i predicted.
Hey, I was being a homer about Ryan Howard, i admit it. We didn't need Sabermetrics to see the warning signs, we just hoped Howard come somehow overcome it...sadly he couldn't.
Patriots fans won't admit it they are homers towards Tom Brady, they're too busy chirping. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because it never does, right?
@Skin2 said:
As for Ryan Howard, that thought process is part of the equation from Stevek. That debate was years ago, but I havent talked to him since then...and the debate was recently settled when he fizzled like i predicted.
Hey, I was being a homer about Ryan Howard, i admit it. We didn't need Sabermetrics to see the warning signs, we just hoped Howard come somehow overcome it...sadly he couldn't.
Patriots fans won't admit it they are homers towards Tom Brady, they're too busy chirping. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because it never does, right?
Steve you 100% know that perkdog and I are the biggest self admitted Brady homers on this site so stop talking out your rear end already.
And we know its ending soon,just as our favorite baseball & basketball teams are lined up as title contenders for the foreseeable future so its all good.
You really want to go there? There are plenty of youtube videos of Eagles fans beating up fans of other teams at football games. Then there are videos of Eagles fans harassing woman walking into the stadium and of course our favorite,Eagles fans eating dog crap.
Oh I enjoy "going there" - it actually ticks me off that Patriots fans are now starting to become more obnoxious than Eagles fans. LOL
@Skin2 said:
As for Ryan Howard, that thought process is part of the equation from Stevek. That debate was years ago, but I havent talked to him since then...and the debate was recently settled when he fizzled like i predicted.
Hey, I was being a homer about Ryan Howard, i admit it. We didn't need Sabermetrics to see the warning signs, we just hoped Howard come somehow overcome it...sadly he couldn't.
Patriots fans won't admit it they are homers towards Tom Brady, they're too busy chirping. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because it never does, right?
Steve you 100% know that perkdog and I are the biggest self admitted Brady homers on this site so stop talking out your rear end already.
And we know its ending soon,just as our favorite baseball & basketball teams are lined up as title contenders for the foreseeable future so its all good.
That's one heckuva good baseball team ya got there.
@Skin2 said:
As for Ryan Howard, that thought process is part of the equation from Stevek. That debate was years ago, but I havent talked to him since then...and the debate was recently settled when he fizzled like i predicted.
Hey, I was being a homer about Ryan Howard, i admit it. We didn't need Sabermetrics to see the warning signs, we just hoped Howard come somehow overcome it...sadly he couldn't.
Patriots fans won't admit it they are homers towards Tom Brady, they're too busy chirping. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because it never does, right?
well, I have been a new england fan since the 1980's and I also like brady. I am, however, not convinced he is the greatest quarterback of all time.
Not switching anything...just pointing out that you want it both ways. You want to give Montana the credit for winning, but blame any and everything else for when his team didn't win. That is idiocy.
Actually, no. Try again.
Gosh you are usually much better than this - you’ll not find me making this argument anywhere. What I did do is comment on their actual performance in the Super Bowl , not when they didn’t get there (you) or crediting a quarterback for wins and losses (you). You actually started with ‘For those of you making this about Tom’s losses...’ which not a single person did, that I saw, then told those fictitious people they were wrong.
Even now you’re saying ‘you want it both ways’ when I do not.
That’s basically the intellectual equivalent of philosopher P.W. Herman’s ‘I know you are but what am I?’
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And if he (or I) says ‘that’s a really good point’ or ‘I never thought of it that way’ then maybe he (or I) will change his mind.
The ability to change your mind and incorporate new information is pretty much the definition of intelligence, after all, isn’t it?
Now I’m taking this as a compliment since I clearly stated I thought Montana and Manning were the best until about 3/4 of the way into Brady’s career and I changed my mind! Obviously I know that wasn’t your point but I did say that. Now to address that fast talkin’ SteveK... yes I’m a huge homer 100% FACT but I do live in reality, it’s not like I’m saying the Red Sox are an all time better organization than the Yankees and I love the Sox and HATE the Yankees. And Philly is home to some of the most obnoxious fans, Boston might be worse in some ways but you gotta admit up until the 2000’s we were probably the most tortured NFL & MLB fans out there. And enjoy it while it lasts? We been enjoying it for 18 years so I’m going to be ok with the Post Brady era, I honestly am. At this point with Brady it’s pure greed since we have won so much lol
You should take it is a compliment. You changed your mind in light of what you saw him do and you are entitled to do so.
My only point - ever - was that there’s room for a few guys in the debate - Brady and Montana among them. I do believe Brady to be a worthy choice, too. He is just not mine.
I’m not a fan of either franchise or player specifically - I respect them all. And therefore I try to bring some objectivity to the thread.
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@1951WheatiesPremium said:
You should take it is a compliment. You changed your mind in light of what you saw him do and you are entitled to do so.
My only point - ever - was that there’s room for a few guys in the debate - Brady and Montana among them. I do believe Brady to be a worthy choice, too. He is just not mine.
I’m not a fan of either franchise or player specifically - I respect them all. And therefore I try to bring some objectivity to the thread.
Duly noted, I think you have conducted yourself pretty well in this debate and you are well spoken for sure. I respect people that can understand Brady being a choice but liking Montana better regardless of how much I might disagree. Honestly I know I’m extremely defensive about Brady but after years of hearing some of the clowns here completely discount him and either call him a cheat or simply hate New England, with you I truly believe you have an unbiased opinion and I respect that.
@craig44 said:
People, wins and losses are a TEAM achievement, not an individual one. You cannot rank players individual talent with a collective stat. Baseball statisticians figured this out years ago with pitcher win/loss records.
I agree 100%. Secondly, the quarterback position is completely different than it was in the 1960;s when I started watching football.
Back then teams ran on first and second down for the most part and if it was 3rd and 3 they usually ran again.
Disregarding team accomplishments, I may vote for Brees as being as good or better than Brady or Montana.
Brees has 7 straight 4,000-yard passing season, surpassing Peyton Manning's record of 6 straight seasons. It was also his 5th straight season with at least 30 touchdown passes and 4,000 yards passing, also an NFL record. He has 5 (nearly 6 missed by 48 yards) 5000 Yard seasons, no other QB has more than 1.
He has averaged a 97.3 QB rating and a 67.2 completion % to Brady's 97.6 and 64%.
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@perkdog said: @LarkinCollector Stop with your trolling, you have been a member here for a long time. If I’ve called you a name and offended you then I apologize. You annoyed me I admit it, we disagree let’s just leave it at that or let’s try to engage like I’ve been doing with 1951 Wheat ok? Again sorry if I came undone a few times
When discussing the GOAT and using Super Bowl victories/losses as a comparison, you have to weigh in other factors: 1) 2 unbelievable NYG catches that led to winning TD’s leaving seconds left on the clock for TB, 2) clutch Vinetari field goals, and 3) Edelman’s catch against the Falcons. Those games could have swung in the other direction ???
When discussing the GOAT and using Super Bowl victories/losses as a comparison, you have to weigh in other factors: 1) 2 unbelievable NYG catches that led to winning TD’s leaving seconds left on the clock for TB, 2) clutch Vinetari field goals, and 3) Edelman’s catch against the Falcons. Those games could have swung in the other direction ???
So many "if's"
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@PatsGuy5000 said:
When discussing the GOAT and using Super Bowl victories/losses as a comparison, you have to weigh in other factors: 1) 2 unbelievable NYG catches that led to winning TD’s leaving seconds left on the clock for TB, 2) clutch Vinetari field goals, and 3) Edelman’s catch against the Falcons. Those games could have swung in the other direction ???
The Seahawks victory was the Football gods making it up to the Patriots for giving Tyree that stupid catch, and actually the Manningham catch as well.
Tuck rule, Big Ben shoelace tackle against Colts, Helmet catch ‘07? What about the Hail Mary against SF in 2011? There was only one defensive play made in last years SuperBowl. And it was enough to earn a win.
EVERY team that wins the SuperBowl has some good fortune along the way.
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Enlightened fans recognize when team accomplishments are the result of a star player. Example. Cavaliers with LeBron, four straight trips to the NBA Finals. One tremendous upset to win a title. This year without LeBron they will be lucky to win 20 games. How good would the Pats be without Brady? Packers without Rodgers? Chiefs without Mahomes?
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Montana had two years in a row where his offense was only able to score three points total in each playoff game and that was with the 5th ranked offense in 85 and the 7th ranked offense in 86. Those offenses were stacked with guys like Jerry Rice,Roger Craig & Dwight Clark.
Joe had four great Super Bowl performances but he also had his share of bad playoff games as well.
Eric
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In total, 22% of Montana's playoff performances were below average to abysmal...and like the guy said above me, he had stacked offensive weapons.
impossible to compare stats of QB's from different eras (I think most of us agree on that), but you CAN compare the following:
Years played / Championship games reached / Championship games won
10 / 10 / 7
Otto Graham
No one else even close....
So again:
Brady had better regular season winning percentage and better post season W%. If winning is a criteria in this debate, then there is no debate in that area. Period.
Add that Brady won MORE Super Bowls...then the people who are using winning as a criteria for Montana's case need to move on to another criteria because they have lost that one in a resounding fashion.
So many people want to penalize Brady because he was able to win the playoff games that led to making the SB yet want to always say its because he had a great team.
Peyton Manning had nine seasons where he led his team to the playoffs yet couldn't win a single game then people make excuses like "he didn't have a good team."
His team's record during those years?
1999 13-3...#2 seed...lost at home
2000 10-6
2002 10-6
2005 14-2....#1 seed ....lost at home
2007 13-3.....#2 seed....lost at home
2008 12-4
2010 10-6....lost at home
2012 13-3.... #1 seed...lost at home
2014 12-4.... #2 seed...lost at home
Manning had plenty of really good teams and home field advantage yet still couldn't beat a lesser opponent.
Eric
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@Skin2
I actually wasn’t crediting him with the win - just highlighting his individual performances. You seem focused on what guys didn’t do instead of what they did. I’m talking about how they performed In the SuperBowl, not how they performed in the years they didn’t get there. And that isn’t the only factor in greatness - either.
By the way, in 1985 and 1986 the San Francisco 49ers ran up against one of the greatest defenses in NFL history two years in a row and got spanked both times. And I thank you for bringing it up. There weren’t many NFL quarterbacks who had good games in those two seasons against the New York Football Giants. Brady, Elway, Favre, Unitas, Peyton - give them all a turn. Better yet, put two back there at once.
Giants would have had twice the sacks!
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And as a matter of fact, yes, Lawrence Taylor was seen snorting cape on sideline.
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One game playoffs would be great for most QBs...well except maybe Peyton Manning
Eric
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Joe & his offense still sucked when they had arguably two GOAT candidates at two positions. Brady played back to back seasons recently where he faced All-Time-ish defenses in the playoffs with the 2014 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos and his offense did much better than just three points.
Eric
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Aside from everything else I’m elated to have my NUMBER ONE FAVORITE poster and my CU friend Skin showing up to post! Good to see you around buddy!
People, wins and losses are a TEAM achievement, not an individual one. You cannot rank players individual talent with a collective stat. Baseball statisticians figured this out years ago with pitcher win/loss records.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What’s all timeish?
I’m not letting that sneak by. They were good defenses both of them.
The 1985-86 Giants defense? You really going there?
Your very smart and credible 99% of the time, @Skin2
Please stay that way.
I’m not here knocking Tom Brady but speaking up for Joe Montana. I first posted on the topic because the statement was made that Tom Brady was the GOAT and it’s not debatable.
That’s ridiculous. Still is. Tom Brady is a fine choice. So is Joe Montana. And since we’re debating it right now and many people have weighed in with differing opinions?
Um...game over, no?
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This is funny. So when they lose its because the other team was good and not his fault...but when they win it was Joe Montana who won the SUper Bowl? I get it...and understand why you don't quite get it.
Just the other day i was thinking, is there a topic in America where there could be 90% agreement? With Brady having the best regular season winning percentage, most regular season total wins, best post season winning percentage, most post season wins, and most Super Bowls...proclaiming Brady the greatest winning QB in modern football is about as close to a slam dunk truth as there is.
There are other things to consider, but those are harder and take more work. It is a slam dunk to point out that Brady was the greatest winning QB in modern football history.
And Perkdog, right back at you my friend. I will also point out that Perkdog would always be the first one to point out if Brady could not get it done and pin it on Brady for the years they didn't win the superbowl. That is consistency and a fairness in evaluation...a rare quality.
I'm sorry, but modern QB's have never faced defenses like the 85 Bears and 86 Giants. not necessarily because of athletic talent, but because the secondary was allowed to hang onto receivers and Linemen were able to deliver much more violent blows to Quarterbacks. the seahawks and broncos were both good defenses, but due to rules were limited in their effectiveness.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Man, you excel at changing the conversation when you are flat out wrong, huh?
That’s like your move. Quick! Opine on Ryan Howard again so you can be right.
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Many NFL sites & experts consider the 2013-14 Seahawks & 2015 Broncos top 10 defenses of all time,some even putting them top 5 with the mid 80's Bears,late 80's Giants & the early 2000's Ravens.
Its hilarious that one Pats fan here is so adamant that Brady is GOAT yet you guys keep arguing with him even though this debate is entirely opinion based. What's the point of debating it with him when you're not changing his stance and he's not changing yours?
Eric
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As is the ability to predict with absolute certainty what people may have done in hypothetical situations.
Impressive stuff.
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I appreciate that and it’s the truth. I was furious over them losing against the Giants the 2nd time and still am, I remember fuming at him on his idiotic throw to the middle of the field with nobody around and it cost the team a safety. Heck from 2007 till that gift wrapped victory against that moron Pete Carroll I stated the Pats were overrated during that time span, they Wasted a lot of good years and Brady gets his fair share of the blame from me as well as Belichek. Those were prime years and he didn’t win with arguably better teams than he had in 2003 & 2004 BUT he soldiered on and brought the Pats two more Super Bowls.
Personally? I like reading and writing about this stuff. It is all opinion based and debatable - that’s the fun of it!
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And if he (or I) says ‘that’s a really good point’ or ‘I never thought of it that way’ then maybe he (or I) will change his mind.
The ability to change your mind and incorporate new information is pretty much the definition of intelligence, after all, isn’t it?
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It can be at times but from a Pats fan standpoint we've basically been hearing the exact same argument points for many years now lol.
Eric
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Let's tell it like it is...New England area fans are chirping like birdies because of the successful run of the Patriots and now the Red Sox are in the World Series.
They have a right to be happy and that's fine. However I think they are letting their homer glee interfere with their better judgment about Tom Brady over Joe Montana. Now they're saying or implying that Joe Montana is a choker? Are they kidding? It's gone beyond absurd.
Unlike @skin2 who seems to be taking things no one ever said, refuting them and then taking a victory lap for winning an argument he created himself.
Tom Brady is the winningest QB of all time and this is a stupid premise and record because it presupposes that one guy is responsible for team wins. They aren’t and never have been. As for Joe taking the blame for the loss against the Giants? Well since I don’t think he deserves all the credit in wins, it stands to reaso. I don’t think he deserves all the blame in losses.
Regardless, we’re discussing greatest QB of all time not winningest. Any dope with a computer can look that up and regurgitate it - anyone.
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Oh please lol,The Eagles finally win the SB and you're in here talking trash like a kid after drinking his first beer.
And hasn't just been "now the Red Sox are in the World Series", if we're keeping count,and us new englanders are,there's been three World Series titles,one NBA Finals trophy & one Stanley Cup trophy for our local Pro teams in the past 14 years, all on top of the five Lombardi trophies since 2001.
You better enjoy that SB win and grab a Snickers bar.
Eric
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New England fans:
Except its not just a dope with a computer talking about it, its the NFL game announcers,its the NFL's website and literally every other sports site with football content,its in thousands of comment sections. This debate as been going on for over 10 years now not just this past week in the PSA Forum.
You nonPats fans are all the same "you can't use playoffs/SB success or wins in the GOAT debate" then 10 minutes later you're all bragging how Joe Montana went 4-0 in the SB because other than Joe's 4-0,there is nothing else to point to as to why he should be GOAT. His career stats aren't all that great because he only played so many years due to injury. Then you'll want to penalize Brady for playing into his 40's like this is somehow a negative.
Eric
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NE fans chirp while Philly fans eat horse crap.
Eric
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Not switching anything...just pointing out that you want it both ways. You want to give Montana the credit for winning, but blame any and everything else for when his team didn't win. That is idiocy.
As for Ryan Howard, that thought process is part of the equation from Stevek. That debate was years ago, but I havent talked to him since then...and the debate was recently settled when he fizzled like i predicted.
Your point makes no sense for this thread. If you wish to accuse me of "talking trash" in the Mike Schmidt versus George Brett debate, that's fine, even though it wasn't true. That being said, if it could be definitely shown who is better, Montana or Brady, i really couldn't care less, which enables me to make an objective opinion. It is basically not possible for a New England fan to be objective on this matter.
I've stated many times that I'm a fan of Tom Brady, and what football fan wouldn't be a fan of Joe Montana. I saw both of them play a good number of times, and to me it's clear Joe Montana is the GOAT with Brady being second. Joe Montana is simply a better quarterback. Case closed.
And what have Patriots fans become?
You really want to go there? There are plenty of youtube videos of Eagles fans beating up fans of other teams at football games. Then there are videos of Eagles fans harassing woman walking into the stadium and of course our favorite,Eagles fans eating horse crap.
Eric
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Hey, I was being a homer about Ryan Howard, i admit it. We didn't need Sabermetrics to see the warning signs, we just hoped Howard come somehow overcome it...sadly he couldn't.
Patriots fans won't admit it they are homers towards Tom Brady, they're too busy chirping. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because it never does, right?
Steve you 100% know that perkdog and I are the biggest self admitted Brady homers on this site so stop talking out your rear end already.
And we know its ending soon,just as our favorite baseball & basketball teams are lined up as title contenders for the foreseeable future so its all good.
Eric
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Oh I enjoy "going there" - it actually ticks me off that Patriots fans are now starting to become more obnoxious than Eagles fans. LOL
That's one heckuva good baseball team ya got there.
Good luck in the World Series.
well, I have been a new england fan since the 1980's and I also like brady. I am, however, not convinced he is the greatest quarterback of all time.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Actually, no. Try again.
Gosh you are usually much better than this - you’ll not find me making this argument anywhere. What I did do is comment on their actual performance in the Super Bowl , not when they didn’t get there (you) or crediting a quarterback for wins and losses (you). You actually started with ‘For those of you making this about Tom’s losses...’ which not a single person did, that I saw, then told those fictitious people they were wrong.
Even now you’re saying ‘you want it both ways’ when I do not.
That’s basically the intellectual equivalent of philosopher P.W. Herman’s ‘I know you are but what am I?’
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Now I’m taking this as a compliment since I clearly stated I thought Montana and Manning were the best until about 3/4 of the way into Brady’s career and I changed my mind! Obviously I know that wasn’t your point but I did say that. Now to address that fast talkin’ SteveK... yes I’m a huge homer 100% FACT but I do live in reality, it’s not like I’m saying the Red Sox are an all time better organization than the Yankees and I love the Sox and HATE the Yankees. And Philly is home to some of the most obnoxious fans, Boston might be worse in some ways but you gotta admit up until the 2000’s we were probably the most tortured NFL & MLB fans out there. And enjoy it while it lasts? We been enjoying it for 18 years so I’m going to be ok with the Post Brady era, I honestly am. At this point with Brady it’s pure greed since we have won so much lol
You should take it is a compliment. You changed your mind in light of what you saw him do and you are entitled to do so.
My only point - ever - was that there’s room for a few guys in the debate - Brady and Montana among them. I do believe Brady to be a worthy choice, too. He is just not mine.
I’m not a fan of either franchise or player specifically - I respect them all. And therefore I try to bring some objectivity to the thread.
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Duly noted, I think you have conducted yourself pretty well in this debate and you are well spoken for sure. I respect people that can understand Brady being a choice but liking Montana better regardless of how much I might disagree. Honestly I know I’m extremely defensive about Brady but after years of hearing some of the clowns here completely discount him and either call him a cheat or simply hate New England, with you I truly believe you have an unbiased opinion and I respect that.
I agree 100%. Secondly, the quarterback position is completely different than it was in the 1960;s when I started watching football.
Back then teams ran on first and second down for the most part and if it was 3rd and 3 they usually ran again.
Disregarding team accomplishments, I may vote for Brees as being as good or better than Brady or Montana.
Brees has 7 straight 4,000-yard passing season, surpassing Peyton Manning's record of 6 straight seasons. It was also his 5th straight season with at least 30 touchdown passes and 4,000 yards passing, also an NFL record. He has 5 (nearly 6 missed by 48 yards) 5000 Yard seasons, no other QB has more than 1.
He has averaged a 97.3 QB rating and a 67.2 completion % to Brady's 97.6 and 64%.
We're cool.
When discussing the GOAT and using Super Bowl victories/losses as a comparison, you have to weigh in other factors: 1) 2 unbelievable NYG catches that led to winning TD’s leaving seconds left on the clock for TB, 2) clutch Vinetari field goals, and 3) Edelman’s catch against the Falcons. Those games could have swung in the other direction ???
So many "if's"
The Seahawks victory was the Football gods making it up to the Patriots for giving Tyree that stupid catch, and actually the Manningham catch as well.
Look at EVERY team that has won a SuperBowl over the last 20 years. There’s been lucknon the playoff journey for each.
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Tuck rule, Big Ben shoelace tackle against Colts, Helmet catch ‘07? What about the Hail Mary against SF in 2011? There was only one defensive play made in last years SuperBowl. And it was enough to earn a win.
EVERY team that wins the SuperBowl has some good fortune along the way.
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again, using a team accomplishment to compare players individual talent is nonsensical.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Enlightened fans recognize when team accomplishments are the result of a star player. Example. Cavaliers with LeBron, four straight trips to the NBA Finals. One tremendous upset to win a title. This year without LeBron they will be lucky to win 20 games. How good would the Pats be without Brady? Packers without Rodgers? Chiefs without Mahomes?
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Ralph