(EDIT) Fake 1804 1c (Draped Bust Half Cent)

CRH4LIFE

I am a little worried this is a fake. I see a 2 rims south of the date.. This also appears to be a spiked chin but is stemless... Is rhis authentic or indeed a cast coin? Thank you all

CRH4LIFE

If this is a obvious fake I could not spot it. Before I put hased it I looked to see if there was anything obvious to turn me away. But the dark color seemed natural to me? I checked the rim and there are no seems. On the edge however. I did not notice the splits on the face of the rim

MikeInFL

Spiked chin, but with no stems reverse and those rims.

I vote counterfeit.

Flatwoods

If those are Ebay seller pics, I can almost guarantee it is fake without looking at the pics.
The background tells me enough.

CRH4LIFE

@Flatwoods said:
If those are Ebay seller pics, I can almost guarantee it is fake without looking at the pics.
The background tells me enough.

These are my pics. I am at a buddyd and did not grab anything with a black backround to take images

bigjpst

Pictures look grainy already but surfaces look suspect

Sonorandesertrat

Here is another 1804 half cent (not spiked chin). Notice anything?

CRH4LIFE

@MikeInFL said:
Spiked chin, but with no stems reverse and those rims.

I vote counterfeit.

Thank's mike. I am going to agree. Curious as what my next steps are. Or just realize I got bit.

CRH4LIFE

@Sonorandesertrat said:
Here is another 1804 half cent (not spiked chin). Notice anything?

The rim amd the strike? Or shall I look again

CRH4LIFE

I will take better images if needed. It seems the answer has arrived rather swiftly on this one

MikeInFL

@CRH4LIFE said:

@MikeInFL said:
Spiked chin, but with no stems reverse and those rims.

I vote counterfeit.

Thank's mike. I am going to agree. Curious as what my next steps are. Or just realize I got bit.

Depends on how you paid for it on eBay, but I'd think you have a good argument to get your money back.

If it is any consolation you're not the first: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/984631/updated-with-new-photos-1804-half-cent-real-or-fake

Sorry for the bad news....Mike

CRH4LIFE

In this case I learned the hard way. $145 is what I paid. I did not pick this one up on eBay rather then a dealer I go to that has a booth in a amtique mall.. Prolbably my first mistake there!

MikeInFL

I like your odds of getting your money back still, and hope that you do.

Remember, it's not the mistakes we make, but how we react to and learn from them that defines each of us.

Good luck...Mike

Sonorandesertrat

Those thick, upturned rims should set off an alarm bell on an early half cent. Why?

I recommend getting a basic book (or two) that discuses the history of the U.S. Mint and how coin production evolved. The books by Don Taxay and Roger Burdette are good places to start.

ECHOES

@CRH4LIFE said:

@Sonorandesertrat said:
Here is another 1804 half cent (not spiked chin). Notice anything?

The rim amd the strike? Or shall I look again

The 1/200 caught my eye first.

ECHOES

DBL Post

BillJones

I had hopes for you until I saw the spiked chin with Ms. Liberty’s tongue sticking out. The stemless wreath was only used with two obverses, one with the Plain 4 and the other with a Crosslet 4 that was not quite as high above the date as this one.

You either have a new variety of 1804 half cent with a different die marriage, or you have something that was minted across the seas. Given the lumps around the “4” which are not supposed to be there along with the period after “STATES” on the reverse, I’m sorry to say that you have an Asian import.

The black color is consistent with a corroded copper coin of this era, but the other stuff is not.

golden

Buying coins from an antique mall is not a good idea. First you have fakes like this and second you over pay for anything that they have that is genuine.

Insider2

@Sonorandesertrat said:
Here is another 1804 half cent (not spiked chin). Notice anything?

Yes, it's counterfeit and a better one than the OP's.

TitusFlavius

The best way to arm yourself against counterfeits is to look at lots of coins, real and fake. You'll start to pick up on the differences. Also, basic references on counterfeit detection can cover the various ways fakes are made. When you see a suspect coin, you can see if any of the questionable features would be best explained by some method of counterfeiting.

Your coin has grainy surfaces, which isn't uncommon on genuine, but corroded large cents. What makes this one obvious as a cast counterfeit (besides the impossible die combination) are the "fat" malformed letters. This is especially noticeable on the word STATES in your second photo. The letters look like blobs oozing out of the surface, instead of the sharp square lettering of US Mint issues. Look at how the lower serifs on the T's have degraded into more of a bulge. The first S is completely missing its lower serif! Even with granular surfaces, the lettering of a genuine coin wouldn't look mushy like that. The random blobs on the surface, like the "period" after STATES, are more evidence of casting. Sorry this lesson cost you, but you've come to the right place to learn all you can from it. Hope you have a chance to add a good one to your collection soon!

Walkerguy21D

Those thick, upturned rims should set off an alarm bell on an early half cent.
That caught my eye too, as I think burfle or another forum member pointed those out on a large cent fake awhile back. I don't think you would see that on anything struck prior to 1836, right?

CRH4LIFE

Thank you all for the advice, help and pointers. As I progress in this hobby I will pick up on spotting a fake. Yes I agree as antique mall's and flea markets do have way over priced coins but every now and then I do find something worth picking up. As I can haggle the price. But yes I will be getting a book or two. Lessoned learned! Thank you all

CRH4LIFE

• I do not stay browsing those kinds of places only on a Sunday when all the shops are closed

mannie gray

It is fake.
Sorry.

Jimnight

Looks like a counterfeit.

CRH4LIFE

Yes. As was established. I will edit the title

ricko

Antique shops always have highly overpriced coins....we have several in this town. I often look at their coins, one may spot a treasure (not so far)....But I do laugh at the prices... just catching the non-collectors who want 'an old coin'....Cheers, RickO

PhilLynott

@Insider2 said:

@Sonorandesertrat said:
Here is another 1804 half cent (not spiked chin). Notice anything?

Yes, it's counterfeit and a better one than the OP's.

Are you saying the PCGS one he posted is also fake?

johnny9434

i wonder if the green bean is bogus as well?

Azurescens

@CRH4LIFE said:
In this case I learned the hard way. $145 is what I paid. I did not pick this one up on eBay rather then a dealer I go to that has a booth in a amtique mall.. Prolbably my first mistake there!

Your problem right now is you own a counterfeit coin not stamped "copy" or "replica".

His problem now is selling you a counterfeit coin. I bet PO won't have a problem finding him, but you probably won't get your money back with their help. I'm sure it will be free beer for everyone.

Try to get it back from the guy first and you can contact management to see if you can get his details. You didn't get a card or Facebook or anything? Is Google helping?

Azurescens

And wow lol they even put mechanical doubling on the upper portion of the E in states and did a little at the end of america.

MikeInFL

@Sonorandesertrat said:
Those thick, upturned rims should set off an alarm bell on an early half cent. Why?

I recommend getting a basic book (or two) that discuses the history of the U.S. Mint and how coin production evolved. The books by Don Taxay and Roger Burdette are good places to start.

@Sonorandesertrat , Surely you are not suggesting the coin posted by the OP is authentic, so I'm presuming you took issue with a few people noting the odd look to the rim. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say outside they are not a concern, and I'd appreciate an explanation.

Which book would you recommend?

Thanks...Mike

Sonorandesertrat

I'm not suggesting the coin is authentic, and I did not have pictures of my example of his variety, so I used another (weakly struck from tired dies). Half cents and large cents struck before 1836 were not struck in a close collar. My initial impression was that the edge seemed too flat (but the image is not clear) and the rims too thick/high, and I did not see any evidence of radial metal flow. Some of the images seem to show raised bumps that should not be there, and the general color is not natural-looking.
Don Taxay/The U. S. Mint and Coinage (out of print, but cheap)
Roger Burdette/From Mine to Mint (in print)
William Eckberg, Robert Fagaly. Dennis Fuoss, Raymond Williams/Grading Guide for Early American Copper Coins

MikeInFL

Thank you, sir.

Azurescens

The 1/200 didn't give it away..?

CRH4LIFE

So I had it tested with a gun and it tested for copper/zinc and a little platinum Wich is odd lol any way I did so so for reasons to prove my case with the store. Also got ahold of a police detective bc I found more "fakes" It isnt a big deal but if this person is going to continue this it is bad for the hobby and that person may have more so. I will update you all on or if anything happens further.