@HolyCity said:
it came from the Banco Central de Venezuela and was divvied up among a few elites to maintain loyalty after Chavez died.
Can you back up that claim?
Wouldn’t sanctions prevent reimportation to the US?
>
Just an educated guess, my Venezuelan wife’s family was high up in the oil biz when president Betancourt nationalized some of the oil Industry. Ive heard some stories. Overseas oil entities paid for rights/land in the early 20th century with us gold coins /bullion. The banking sector became nationalized under Chavez. All the gold, sitting in the banks, essentially became his and a few close associates. When Chavez died it became the Wild West.
The hoard was in the form of raw coins. once they leave Venezuela and smuggled to Canada, US, Spain, wherever, they become hard to trace. When passed through intermediaries at destination, then they become even harder to trace.
Really just my personal opinion but it makes sense if u think about it
@HolyCity said:
it came from the Banco Central de Venezuela and was divvied up among a few elites to maintain loyalty after Chavez died.
Can you back up that claim?
Wouldn’t sanctions prevent reimportation to the US?
>
Just an educated guess, my Venezuelan wife’s family was high up in the oil biz when president Betancourt nationalized some of the oil Industry. Ive heard some stories. Overseas oil entities paid for rights/land in the early 20th century with us gold coins /bullion. The banking sector became nationalized under Chavez. All the gold, sitting in the banks, essentially became his and a few close associates. When Chavez died it became the Wild West.
The hoard was in the form of raw coins. once they leave Venezuela and smuggled to Canada, US, Spain, wherever, they become hard to trace. When passed through intermediaries at destination, then they become even harder to trace.
Really just my personal opinion but it makes sense if u think about it
That’s definitely an interesting theory and at least one dealer on instagram clearly believes the same.
@alaura22 said:
The Fairmont Collection appears to be in the neighborhood of 400,000 (!!) coins,
Is this a typo??
Nope....the CERTIFIED coin total is under 7,000 as per the analysis...but the total hoard is monstrous. Check out the Guest Blogger over at Doug Winter's site that I linked earlier, he does the analysis.
If the Venezuela story checks out -- and it seems VERY plausible -- it would make sense that an authoritarian regime where the head guy and his close associates controlled the banks and Central Bank would be able to literally take possession of tons of gold.
If there is ANY validity to the Velenzuelen story/claim I believe I would have a very big issue. The regime... hell you know what they did.
I need to find out the true legalities here.... this does not jive with anything I have heard about this hoard.
@Relaxn said:
If there is ANY validity to the Venezuelan story/claim I believe I would have a very big issue. The regime... hell you >know what they did. I need to find out the true legalities here.... this does not jive with anything I have heard about >this hoard.
That's just it....there ISN'T much that has come out on the hoard. If it's a few insiders from the government liquidating their stash a few years after Chavez died -- and with sanctions on Maduro and others also in place -- the less said, the better. Even if it were a legitimate hoard, the price-depressing effect of such a monstrous stash would not be advertised by anybody in possession of the coins.
As someone who is interested in the provenance of many hoards (esp. those involving pre-1933 coins and/or Double Eagles), I have been looking for any commentary on Fairmont and aside from Doug Winter, there hasn't been much at all. His Guest Blogger's analysis on the Fairmont Hoard/Collection is spectacular, IMO.
The story makes sense as Venezuela would be the perfect country to have lots of pre-1933 gold: authoritarian kleptocracies running the country; corrupt and government dominated Central Bank and banking sector; cash-rich national oil company easily looted by higher-ups in both the company and government (we saw this only 2 decades ago with Petrobras in Brazil) .
We don't have PROOF that this is the source of the Fairmont Hoard/Collection. But it is most definitely plausible (I wouldn't bet on Paraguay or Chile or similar countries without a cash cow like PDVSA).
@Project Numismatics said:
Can you back up that claim?
Wouldn’t sanctions prevent reimportation to the US?
You would need one of the insiders or a government/central bank official to spill the beans.
If the provenance/source of the gold coins is unknown, I am not sure how sanctions could be applied. Even if you knew it was from Venezuela, you could say it came from ex-patriates who fled the Chavez/Maduro regimes.
These importations of hoards tend to involve a tight circle. Even decades later, we STILL don't know which country (assuming it was one) the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo Saint coins came from. Ron Gillio is still around but has never given details.
@fathom said:
Stacks isn't going to touch it unless they are unencumbered.
They have too much at stake.
I 100% agree - which is a big reason I doubt the Venezuela connection. I think if there were anything legally questionable about the origin of Fairmont that it would have come out by now.
@Project Numismatics said: @fathom said:
Stacks isn't going to touch it unless they are unencumbered. They have too much at stake.
I 100% agree - which is a big reason I doubt the Venezuela connection. I think if there were anything legally >questionable about the origin of Fairmont that it would have come out by now.
".... Treasury then sanctioned Venezuela’s state-owned gold sector company, Minerven, for using illicit gold operations to support Maduro."
It's a very large quantity of gold to launder, but it could be done with trusted individuals. Could be Venezuelan opposition types in Florida for all we know.
From its first well in about 1910, Venezuela quickly became an oil powerhouse. By 1928 it was the largest exporter of oil in the world. Most of those early oil deals were funded in US gold coins/ bullion. Bars can be messed with. Most of the Venezuelan property barons /oil guys preferred to be paid in US gold coinage as it was very trusted.
Now look at what’s come out of the fairmont collection.from my understanding it’s 20s, 10’s and 5’s . If you were making large purchases, that’s what you would do it in ,you wouldn’t use the smaller denominations.
Yes, stacks is reputable business but who knows when this gold left Venezuela and how many times it’s been washed.
One other point is the Venezuelan regime is really good at smuggling. They are known as the cartel de soles.
And have formed partnerships all over the world. For all we know that gold could’ve gone to Iran for a period of time and then from Iran made its way to Canada or the states. I could say the same about several other bad actors as well.
The size of this hoard 400,000 pre 33 us gold coins ,think about that and why now.
Juan Vicente Gómez Ruled Venezuela with the backing of the US and opened up the vast petroleum resources of the country to US interests. It is possible that the hoard is a result of that relationship which lasted from 1902 to 1935 with the gold perhaps propping up the banks during that period.
Pure conjecture but the US relationship during that period coincides with when the hoard was likely formed.
@Boosibri said:
Juan Vicente Gómez Ruled Venezuela with the backing of the US and opened up the vast petroleum resources of the country to US interests. It is possible that the hoard is a result of that relationship which lasted from 1902 to 1935 with the gold perhaps propping up the banks during that period.
Pure conjecture but the US relationship during that period coincides with when the hoard was likely formed.
Gomez had 17 children(likely many more though) I married a chacon. My son is a descendent. Although now he’s pretty watered down with my German roots . For my son’s sake, I have begun to do some research on his Venezuelan heritage. I find it all fascinating.
Again, there is no proof of this Fairmont hoard origin it is just my personal opinion.
@Boosibri said:
From what I’ve heard it came from Venezuela and the hotel where it was brought for assessment was called the Fairmont (perhaps the Fairmont Le Chateau Frontenac in Quebec)
I’ve heard the same thing from two sources. The big shots at SB aren’t talking and the peons at SB are left in the dark. I was told that the gold originated from Germany and made its way to Venezuela after WW2. The gold somehow was transported from Maduro controlled Venezuela to a bank in Quebec close to the Fairmont Hotel. If that’s the case with the Venezuelan embargo that’s not kosher. Of course this is only speculation and nobody knows for sure except for a few people at SB.
On another note, everything from the Fairmont hoard that SB auctioned was submitted to CAC.
@HolyCity said:
From its first well in about 1910, Venezuela quickly became an oil powerhouse. By 1928 it was the largest exporter >of oil in the world. Most of those early oil deals were funded in US gold coins/ bullion. Bars can be messed with. >Most of the Venezuelan property barons /oil guys preferred to be paid in US gold coinage as it was very trusted.
VZ oil was key to helping the U.S. and Allies in WW II. VZ was also a founding member of OPEC in 1960.
If not for Chavez and Maduro, PDVSA would be producing 5-6 MM/bl/day and Venezuelans would be among the wealthiest people in the Western Hemisphere. Those Marxist buffoons burned a trillion dollars faster than Dr. Evil.
Now look at what’s come out of the fairmont collection.from my understanding it’s 20s, 10’s and 5’s . If you were >making large purchases, that’s what you would do it in ,you wouldn’t use the smaller denominations.
True....check out the population census estimates for the Fairmont Hoard (and Collection of certifieds) over at DW's blog/website. It's a detailed 3-part series.
Yes, stacks is reputable business but who knows when this gold left Venezuela and how many times it’s been washed.
Agreed...the quantity is large (~ 9 tons) but it could be smuggled/laundered using embassies, trusted individuals, cartels, etc.
It makes sense it would be put together at a hotel in Canada, if that is true. The U.S. would be too risky with the FBI and NSA keeping tabs on Maduro....Mexico is too risky, lots of corrupt thieves in government just like VZ.
Canada is the loosey-goosey country.
One other point is the Venezuelan regime is really good at smuggling. They are known as the cartel de soles.
And have formed partnerships all over the world. For all we know that gold could’ve gone to Iran for a period of >time and then from Iran made its way to Canada or the states. I could say the same about several other bad actors >as well. The size of this hoard 400,000 pre 33 us gold coins ,think about that and why now.
I'll take your word for it, but I doubt it was sent to Iran -- again, too risky and under the eye of U.S. law enforcement, NSA, Interpol, etc. Sending it directly to Canada -- maybe Quebec, if Venezuelan liberation types had made some friends with the separatist movements in Quebec -- makes more sense. You don't want to send something this big and valuable to intermediaries. Get it to the final destination ASAP and then sell it.
@HolyCity said:
Again, there is no proof of this Fairmont hoard origin it is just my personal opinion.
It's just conjecture but it does make sense. The PDVSA connection is what gives it credibility. No way I would think Paraguay or Bolivia -- 2 poor countries -- could have this much gold even in a dictatorship.
You would think once VZ gets rid of Maduro and people talk we'll know the truth. Between the government....PDVSA...and the VZ Central Bank...lots of people had to know about this hoard. With plenty of PDVSA cash over the years, it would have been easy for the government/PDVSA/VZ Central Bank to distribute cash and then call in favors when it came time to getting this gold ready for sale.
@Boosibri said:
Juan Vicente Gómez Ruled Venezuela with the backing of the US and opened up the vast petroleum resources of the country to US interests. It is possible that the hoard is a result of that relationship which lasted from 1902 to 1935 with the gold perhaps propping up the banks during that period.
Pure conjecture but the US relationship during that period coincides with when the hoard was likely formed.
Gomez had 17 children(likely many more though) I married a chacon. My son is a descendent. Although now he’s pretty watered down with my German roots . For my son’s sake, I have begun to do some research on his Venezuelan heritage. I find it all fascinating.
Again, there is no proof of this Fairmont hoard origin it is just my personal opinion.
It is definitely quite fascinating, and I think that the theory is plausible.
Aside from that, good luck with your research on your family's heritage - hopefully it leads to more time and memories together!
@HolyCity said:
One other point is the Venezuelan regime is really good at smuggling. They are known as the cartel de soles.
And have formed partnerships all over the world. For all we know that gold could’ve gone to Iran for a period of >time and then from Iran made its way to Canada or the states. I could say the same about several other bad actors >as well. The size of this hoard 400,000 pre 33 us gold coins ,think about that and why now.
I'll take your word for it, but I doubt it was sent to Iran -- again, too risky and under the eye of U.S. law enforcement, NSA, Interpol, etc. Sending it directly to Canada -- maybe Quebec, if Venezuelan liberation types had made some friends with the separatist movements in Quebec -- makes more sense. You don't want to send something this big and valuable to intermediaries. Get it to the final destination ASAP and then sell it.
Iran was a bad example, I just meant it could have stopped at a transshipment point/country for unknown time before it made its way to Canada or US.
There are Russian/Iranian/cuban advisors on the ground in Vz as I type.
It’s a damn shame, Venezuela is a beautiful country with enough natural resources to be one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
My opinion Venezuela’s downfall really started when Chavez packed the Supreme Court with 12 new justices. It all snowballed from there. The corruption currently there is unbelievable .Trump tried to force a change, but he backed the wrong horse in Guaido and certain key figures changed their mind, and remained loyal to Maduro. Guadio couldn’t sell it.
Now Biden is trying to make a deal with Maduro just to keep oil down and his rating up at home. Maduro will never allow free elections ,that ship has sailed. This is life or death for him. It was just a stalling tactic for Maduro and huge public relations win that whole Barbados agreement BS. Anyways I hope things change for the people of vz they deserve some good news.
The Velenzuela sanctions were not relaxedx until 22/23.. This gold started making appearances in 2018..
I have reached out to the Office of Foreign Assets Control to attempt to ascertain any information they may have... If they do not have any direct I have requested to be directed in the proper direction.
My assumption was this gold was always from Europe and being re-patriated.
As far as the whole collection being submitted to CAC... IF it cleared through a stacks signature auction (i.e. Fairmont auction with a named subset) the coins were submitted to CAC. I can confirm that via my people at Stacks.
If the gold was dumped into their Collectors choice auctions or the Precious Metals auctions the coins were not submitted through stacks.
Also the gold that has been cleared through some of the big dealers in skipped Stacks all together that gold was not submitted to CAC before being sold/consigned with the dealers.
I am annoyed at the potential of this gold being from Chavez/Maduro Velenzuela...
@skier07 said: @Boosibri said:
From what I’ve heard it came from Venezuela and the hotel where it was brought for assessment was called the >Fairmont (perhaps the Fairmont Le Chateau Frontenac in Quebec)
I’ve heard the same thing from two sources. The big shots at SB aren’t talking and the peons at SB are left in the >dark. I was told that the gold originated from Germany and made its way to Venezuela after WW2. The gold >somehow was transported from Maduro controlled Venezuela to a bank in Quebec close to the Fairmont Hotel. If >that’s the case with the Venezuelan embargo that’s not kosher. Of course this is only speculation and nobody knows >for sure except for a few people at SB.
It's more likely that they DON'T know because if it came from VZ (directly or indirectly)....those individuals would know that no reputable dealer or bank would touch stuff with sanctions in place. You're looking at a major loss of reputation and civil or criminal sanctions. Stacks has been around 90 years; they won't risk that and I'm sure anybody or any country that is dirty is probably smart enough to know that, too.
My opinion -- and common sense !! -- for what it is worth.
BTW....if the gold originated in Germany (from WW II) and then made its way to VZ, that would really up the ante on the illegitimacy of the origins of this hoard. I think it is more likely it was purchased with PDVSA oil revenues and the gold may have been purchased from German SOURCES...but not WW II German (Nazi) gold laundered through VZ.
On another note, everything from the Fairmont hoard that SB auctioned was submitted to CAC.
Is this true ? My understanding from the detailed Fairmont analysis over at DW's blog was that only the creme de la creme got submitted. Lots of AU and below-AU coins that weren't worthy of TPG certification and/or CAC submission.
@HolyCity said:
It’s a damn shame, Venezuela is a beautiful country with enough natural resources to be one of the wealthiest >countries in the world.
The people there KNOW what is going on around the world...it's not the 1970's anymore where 1 man can control 1 key TV station and 2 or 3 radio stations and the people are in the dark. You have the internet, cell phones, etc.
Venezuelan people KNOW they are losing $50-$75 billion a year in oil revenue because of the Marxist Socialists running the place into the ground. I'm surprised someone hasn't taken out Maduro yet.
When he is gone, we will probably find out if the VZ-Fairmont collection is legit or a blind alley.
@skier07 said: @Boosibri said:
From what I’ve heard it came from Venezuela and the hotel where it was brought for assessment was called the >Fairmont (perhaps the Fairmont Le Chateau Frontenac in Quebec)
I’ve heard the same thing from two sources. The big shots at SB aren’t talking and the peons at SB are left in the >dark. I was told that the gold originated from Germany and made its way to Venezuela after WW2. The gold >somehow was transported from Maduro controlled Venezuela to a bank in Quebec close to the Fairmont Hotel. If >that’s the case with the Venezuelan embargo that’s not kosher. Of course this is only speculation and nobody knows >for sure except for a few people at SB.
It's more likely that they DON'T know because if it came from VZ (directly or indirectly)....those individuals would know that no reputable dealer or bank would touch stuff with sanctions in place. You're looking at a major loss of reputation and civil or criminal sanctions. Stacks has been around 90 years; they won't risk that and I'm sure anybody or any country that is dirty is probably smart enough to know that, too.
My opinion -- and common sense !! -- for what it is worth.
BTW....if the gold originated in Germany (from WW II) and then made its way to VZ, that would really up the ante on the illegitimacy of the origins of this hoard. I think it is more likely it was purchased with PDVSA oil revenues and the gold may have been purchased from German SOURCES...but not WW II German (Nazi) gold laundered through VZ.
On another note, everything from the Fairmont hoard that SB auctioned was submitted to CAC.
Is this true ? My understanding from the detailed Fairmont analysis over at DW's blog was that only the creme de la creme got submitted. Lots of AU and below-AU coins that weren't worthy of TPG certification and/or CAC submission.
Excellent points that you raised. I asked my source similar questions and he was unable to answer them. SB is a reputable company and I would think that if they’re buying a 400,000 coin hoard that’s located in a Canadian bank they would know who they’re buying the coins from (both directly and indirectly). I would also think they would have some kind of obligation to perform due diligence as to the origins of the hoard.
It was my understanding that every Fairmont coin that was auctioned was submitted to CAC.
@skier07 said:
Excellent points that you raised. I asked my source similar questions and he was unable to answer them. SB is a reputable company and I would think that if they’re buying a 400,000 coin hoard that’s located in a Canadian bank they would know who they’re buying the coins from (both directly and indirectly). I would also think they would have some kind of obligation to perform due diligence as to the origins of the hoard.
It was my understanding that every Fairmont coin that was auctioned was submitted to CAC.
I keep reading stacks would never accept this consignment unless they knew for sure
the regime in Venezuela could have used a front man or the like, a legitimate well healed businessman/ woman thats been living outside of Venezuela with all the correct documentation of ownership. Meanwhile the regime has that person‘s family at gunpoint back in Venezuela saying do exactly as we say. Or some other type of leverage. Venezuela is run like the mafia, except they control a state with the largest proven oil reserves in the world. Don’t underestimate their creativity
@HolyCity said:
I keep reading stacks would never accept this consignment unless they knew for sure
the regime in Venezuela could have used a front man or the like, a legitimate well healed businessman/ woman thats been living outside of Venezuela with all the correct documentation of ownership. Meanwhile the regime has that person‘s family at gunpoint back in Venezuela saying do exactly as we say. Or some other type of leverage. Venezuela is run like the mafia, except they control a state with the largest proven oil reserves in the world. Don’t underestimate their creativity
People who want anonymity can hire someone to represent them, just like they get bidders at auctions.
The TPGs and autions houses didn't ask any questions on the 1983 El Salvador or 1996 No Motto Saint Wells Fargo hoards. Could very easily be ill-gotten gains of military juntas.
From Numismatic News talking about the folks who brought hoards over in the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's:
"...Today, a dealer buying 20 gold eagles or double eagles might well promote their purchase, but this was years ago and the approach was very different for a large number of reasons, including the simple fact that everyone had seen price declines in Morgan dollars as they emerged from Treasury vaults. If Morgans could drop significantly in price because hoards appeared, there was no reason in any mind to suggest large numbers of gold coin dates had been purchased as that information would simply drive down the price....The nature of the business did not lend itself to publicity. Dealers risking the time and cost of a trip to Europe or Central America in an attempt to find and buy gold coins did not want to tell their competitors. Moreover, if they did buy large numbers they did not want to publicize that either.
Today a dealer acquires 100 gold eagles or double eagles and he might buy large advertisements to promote their availability and buyers will flock to him.
The lessons of the Treasury silver dollar holdings, however, were far too fresh back in the 1960s and 1970s. Everyone had seen certain Morgan dollar dates literally crash in price because they suddenly were available. To make a large splash suggesting you had a certain date at the time might very well have been self-defeating as the price of the date might very well have gone down. As a result, literally millions of gold coins simply slipped into the United States and onto the rare coin market basically under the radar with no one saying a word...."
I am seeing TV commercials airing on CNBC and some late-night weekend infomercial types talking about the Fairmont Collection/Hoard.....1904 Liberty DEs and 1932 Indian Head Eagles being offered. No price listed, you have to call a number.
It's ridiculous....I've seen estimates this hoard/collection could be hundreds of thousands of pieces (obviously, the marketed stuff we see and buy and have interest in is much smaller in number). I'm not surprised if there is a "buyer's strike" because you simply don't know how much more stuff is coming out.
I believe this hoard has been public for about 7 years now, right ? Marketers of a hoard are obviously sensitive to releasing confidential information on the size/dates/specific coins...but in this case, as the coins continuously dribble out....it's not helping them maintain interest or pricing.
Comments
it came from the Banco Central de Venezuela and was divvied up among a few elites to maintain loyalty after Chavez died.
Can you back up that claim?
Wouldn’t sanctions prevent reimportation to the US?
Hehen> @Project Numismatics said:
>
Just an educated guess, my Venezuelan wife’s family was high up in the oil biz when president Betancourt nationalized some of the oil Industry. Ive heard some stories. Overseas oil entities paid for rights/land in the early 20th century with us gold coins /bullion. The banking sector became nationalized under Chavez. All the gold, sitting in the banks, essentially became his and a few close associates. When Chavez died it became the Wild West.
The hoard was in the form of raw coins. once they leave Venezuela and smuggled to Canada, US, Spain, wherever, they become hard to trace. When passed through intermediaries at destination, then they become even harder to trace.
Really just my personal opinion but it makes sense if u think about it
Very cool analysis!
That’s definitely an interesting theory and at least one dealer on instagram clearly believes the same.
The Fairmont Collection appears to be in the neighborhood of 400,000 (!!)
coins,
Is this a typo??
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Nope....the CERTIFIED coin total is under 7,000 as per the analysis...but the total hoard is monstrous. Check out the Guest Blogger over at Doug Winter's site that I linked earlier, he does the analysis.
If the Venezuela story checks out -- and it seems VERY plausible -- it would make sense that an authoritarian regime where the head guy and his close associates controlled the banks and Central Bank would be able to literally take possession of tons of gold.
If there is ANY validity to the Velenzuelen story/claim I believe I would have a very big issue. The regime... hell you know what they did.
I need to find out the true legalities here.... this does not jive with anything I have heard about this hoard.
That's just it....there ISN'T much that has come out on the hoard. If it's a few insiders from the government liquidating their stash a few years after Chavez died -- and with sanctions on Maduro and others also in place -- the less said, the better. Even if it were a legitimate hoard, the price-depressing effect of such a monstrous stash would not be advertised by anybody in possession of the coins.
As someone who is interested in the provenance of many hoards (esp. those involving pre-1933 coins and/or Double Eagles), I have been looking for any commentary on Fairmont and aside from Doug Winter, there hasn't been much at all. His Guest Blogger's analysis on the Fairmont Hoard/Collection is spectacular, IMO.
The story makes sense as Venezuela would be the perfect country to have lots of pre-1933 gold: authoritarian kleptocracies running the country; corrupt and government dominated Central Bank and banking sector; cash-rich national oil company easily looted by higher-ups in both the company and government (we saw this only 2 decades ago with Petrobras in Brazil) .
We don't have PROOF that this is the source of the Fairmont Hoard/Collection. But it is most definitely plausible (I wouldn't bet on Paraguay or Chile or similar countries without a cash cow like PDVSA).
You would need one of the insiders or a government/central bank official to spill the beans.
If the provenance/source of the gold coins is unknown, I am not sure how sanctions could be applied. Even if you knew it was from Venezuela, you could say it came from ex-patriates who fled the Chavez/Maduro regimes.
These importations of hoards tend to involve a tight circle. Even decades later, we STILL don't know which country (assuming it was one) the 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo Saint coins came from. Ron Gillio is still around but has never given details.
Stacks isn't going to touch it unless they are unencumbered.
They have too much at stake.
I 100% agree - which is a big reason I doubt the Venezuela connection. I think if there were anything legally questionable about the origin of Fairmont that it would have come out by now.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF10715/38
".... Treasury then sanctioned Venezuela’s state-owned gold sector company, Minerven, for using illicit gold operations to support Maduro."
It's a very large quantity of gold to launder, but it could be done with trusted individuals. Could be Venezuelan opposition types in Florida for all we know.
From its first well in about 1910, Venezuela quickly became an oil powerhouse. By 1928 it was the largest exporter of oil in the world. Most of those early oil deals were funded in US gold coins/ bullion. Bars can be messed with. Most of the Venezuelan property barons /oil guys preferred to be paid in US gold coinage as it was very trusted.
Now look at what’s come out of the fairmont collection.from my understanding it’s 20s, 10’s and 5’s . If you were making large purchases, that’s what you would do it in ,you wouldn’t use the smaller denominations.
Yes, stacks is reputable business but who knows when this gold left Venezuela and how many times it’s been washed.
One other point is the Venezuelan regime is really good at smuggling. They are known as the cartel de soles.
And have formed partnerships all over the world. For all we know that gold could’ve gone to Iran for a period of time and then from Iran made its way to Canada or the states. I could say the same about several other bad actors as well.
The size of this hoard 400,000 pre 33 us gold coins ,think about that and why now.
Juan Vicente Gómez Ruled Venezuela with the backing of the US and opened up the vast petroleum resources of the country to US interests. It is possible that the hoard is a result of that relationship which lasted from 1902 to 1935 with the gold perhaps propping up the banks during that period.
Pure conjecture but the US relationship during that period coincides with when the hoard was likely formed.
Latin American Collection
,
Gomez had 17 children(likely many more though) I married a chacon. My son is a descendent. Although now he’s pretty watered down with my German roots . For my son’s sake, I have begun to do some research on his Venezuelan heritage. I find it all fascinating.
Again, there is no proof of this Fairmont hoard origin it is just my personal opinion.
I’ve heard the same thing from two sources. The big shots at SB aren’t talking and the peons at SB are left in the dark. I was told that the gold originated from Germany and made its way to Venezuela after WW2. The gold somehow was transported from Maduro controlled Venezuela to a bank in Quebec close to the Fairmont Hotel. If that’s the case with the Venezuelan embargo that’s not kosher. Of course this is only speculation and nobody knows for sure except for a few people at SB.
On another note, everything from the Fairmont hoard that SB auctioned was submitted to CAC.
VZ oil was key to helping the U.S. and Allies in WW II. VZ was also a founding member of OPEC in 1960.
If not for Chavez and Maduro, PDVSA would be producing 5-6 MM/bl/day and Venezuelans would be among the wealthiest people in the Western Hemisphere. Those Marxist buffoons burned a trillion dollars faster than Dr. Evil.
True....check out the population census estimates for the Fairmont Hoard (and Collection of certifieds) over at DW's blog/website. It's a detailed 3-part series.
Agreed...the quantity is large (~ 9 tons) but it could be smuggled/laundered using embassies, trusted individuals, cartels, etc.
It makes sense it would be put together at a hotel in Canada, if that is true. The U.S. would be too risky with the FBI and NSA keeping tabs on Maduro....Mexico is too risky, lots of corrupt thieves in government just like VZ.
Canada is the loosey-goosey country.
I'll take your word for it, but I doubt it was sent to Iran -- again, too risky and under the eye of U.S. law enforcement, NSA, Interpol, etc. Sending it directly to Canada -- maybe Quebec, if Venezuelan liberation types had made some friends with the separatist movements in Quebec -- makes more sense. You don't want to send something this big and valuable to intermediaries. Get it to the final destination ASAP and then sell it.
While that would be my expectation, has SB confirmed?
It's just conjecture but it does make sense. The PDVSA connection is what gives it credibility. No way I would think Paraguay or Bolivia -- 2 poor countries -- could have this much gold even in a dictatorship.
You would think once VZ gets rid of Maduro and people talk we'll know the truth. Between the government....PDVSA...and the VZ Central Bank...lots of people had to know about this hoard. With plenty of PDVSA cash over the years, it would have been easy for the government/PDVSA/VZ Central Bank to distribute cash and then call in favors when it came time to getting this gold ready for sale.
Someone will talk....when Maduro is gone.
It is definitely quite fascinating, and I think that the theory is plausible.
Aside from that, good luck with your research on your family's heritage - hopefully it leads to more time and memories together!
Iran was a bad example, I just meant it could have stopped at a transshipment point/country for unknown time before it made its way to Canada or US.
There are Russian/Iranian/cuban advisors on the ground in Vz as I type.
It’s a damn shame, Venezuela is a beautiful country with enough natural resources to be one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
My opinion Venezuela’s downfall really started when Chavez packed the Supreme Court with 12 new justices. It all snowballed from there. The corruption currently there is unbelievable .Trump tried to force a change, but he backed the wrong horse in Guaido and certain key figures changed their mind, and remained loyal to Maduro. Guadio couldn’t sell it.
Now Biden is trying to make a deal with Maduro just to keep oil down and his rating up at home. Maduro will never allow free elections ,that ship has sailed. This is life or death for him. It was just a stalling tactic for Maduro and huge public relations win that whole Barbados agreement BS. Anyways I hope things change for the people of vz they deserve some good news.
Excellent read
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8
The Velenzuela sanctions were not relaxedx until 22/23.. This gold started making appearances in 2018..
I have reached out to the Office of Foreign Assets Control to attempt to ascertain any information they may have... If they do not have any direct I have requested to be directed in the proper direction.
My assumption was this gold was always from Europe and being re-patriated.
As far as the whole collection being submitted to CAC... IF it cleared through a stacks signature auction (i.e. Fairmont auction with a named subset) the coins were submitted to CAC. I can confirm that via my people at Stacks.
If the gold was dumped into their Collectors choice auctions or the Precious Metals auctions the coins were not submitted through stacks.
Also the gold that has been cleared through some of the big dealers in skipped Stacks all together that gold was not submitted to CAC before being sold/consigned with the dealers.
I am annoyed at the potential of this gold being from Chavez/Maduro Velenzuela...
It's more likely that they DON'T know because if it came from VZ (directly or indirectly)....those individuals would know that no reputable dealer or bank would touch stuff with sanctions in place. You're looking at a major loss of reputation and civil or criminal sanctions. Stacks has been around 90 years; they won't risk that and I'm sure anybody or any country that is dirty is probably smart enough to know that, too.
My opinion -- and common sense !!
-- for what it is worth.
BTW....if the gold originated in Germany (from WW II) and then made its way to VZ, that would really up the ante on the illegitimacy of the origins of this hoard. I think it is more likely it was purchased with PDVSA oil revenues and the gold may have been purchased from German SOURCES...but not WW II German (Nazi) gold laundered through VZ.
Is this true ? My understanding from the detailed Fairmont analysis over at DW's blog was that only the creme de la creme got submitted. Lots of AU and below-AU coins that weren't worthy of TPG certification and/or CAC submission.
The people there KNOW what is going on around the world...it's not the 1970's anymore where 1 man can control 1 key TV station and 2 or 3 radio stations and the people are in the dark. You have the internet, cell phones, etc.
Venezuelan people KNOW they are losing $50-$75 billion a year in oil revenue because of the Marxist Socialists running the place into the ground. I'm surprised someone hasn't taken out Maduro yet.
When he is gone, we will probably find out if the VZ-Fairmont collection is legit or a blind alley.
Excellent points that you raised. I asked my source similar questions and he was unable to answer them. SB is a reputable company and I would think that if they’re buying a 400,000 coin hoard that’s located in a Canadian bank they would know who they’re buying the coins from (both directly and indirectly). I would also think they would have some kind of obligation to perform due diligence as to the origins of the hoard.
It was my understanding that every Fairmont coin that was auctioned was submitted to CAC.
I keep reading stacks would never accept this consignment unless they knew for sure
the regime in Venezuela could have used a front man or the like, a legitimate well healed businessman/ woman thats been living outside of Venezuela with all the correct documentation of ownership. Meanwhile the regime has that person‘s family at gunpoint back in Venezuela saying do exactly as we say. Or some other type of leverage. Venezuela is run like the mafia, except they control a state with the largest proven oil reserves in the world. Don’t underestimate their creativity
People who want anonymity can hire someone to represent them, just like they get bidders at auctions.
The TPGs and autions houses didn't ask any questions on the 1983 El Salvador or 1996 No Motto Saint Wells Fargo hoards. Could very easily be ill-gotten gains of military juntas.
From Numismatic News talking about the folks who brought hoards over in the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's:
"...Today, a dealer buying 20 gold eagles or double eagles might well promote their purchase, but this was years ago and the approach was very different for a large number of reasons, including the simple fact that everyone had seen price declines in Morgan dollars as they emerged from Treasury vaults. If Morgans could drop significantly in price because hoards appeared, there was no reason in any mind to suggest large numbers of gold coin dates had been purchased as that information would simply drive down the price....The nature of the business did not lend itself to publicity. Dealers risking the time and cost of a trip to Europe or Central America in an attempt to find and buy gold coins did not want to tell their competitors. Moreover, if they did buy large numbers they did not want to publicize that either.
Today a dealer acquires 100 gold eagles or double eagles and he might buy large advertisements to promote their availability and buyers will flock to him.
The lessons of the Treasury silver dollar holdings, however, were far too fresh back in the 1960s and 1970s. Everyone had seen certain Morgan dollar dates literally crash in price because they suddenly were available. To make a large splash suggesting you had a certain date at the time might very well have been self-defeating as the price of the date might very well have gone down. As a result, literally millions of gold coins simply slipped into the United States and onto the rare coin market basically under the radar with no one saying a word...."
A new commentary talking about Fairmont's effect on pricing for Double Eagles:
https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2024/2/16/fairmont-gold-pieces-part-iv-fairmonted
I am seeing TV commercials airing on CNBC and some late-night weekend infomercial types talking about the Fairmont Collection/Hoard.....1904 Liberty DEs and 1932 Indian Head Eagles being offered. No price listed, you have to call a number.
A new slab for this?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
It's ridiculous....I've seen estimates this hoard/collection could be hundreds of thousands of pieces (obviously, the marketed stuff we see and buy and have interest in is much smaller in number). I'm not surprised if there is a "buyer's strike" because you simply don't know how much more stuff is coming out.
I believe this hoard has been public for about 7 years now, right ? Marketers of a hoard are obviously sensitive to releasing confidential information on the size/dates/specific coins...but in this case, as the coins continuously dribble out....it's not helping them maintain interest or pricing.