OK...Let's see if PCGS has tightened up.

homerunhall · May 17, 2005 2:37PM

Hi Everybody,

Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this. However, I'm willing to give it a closer look on your behalf.

For the next weeks, i.e. until June 1, I'll do a free Presidential Review for up to twenty coins. The coins have to be 1934 to date and they have to be graded between 5-17 and 6-1-05. Just call customer service and refer them to this post. I'll send everyone who does this a brief note on each coin and I'll post facts and figures after June 1. I'll give each coin an honest look.

Thanks,

David Hall

Edited to add:

This is 20 coins per person. You'll need to let me know which coins you disagree with and what you think the grade should be. Just tell customer service your comments on your coins when you make your review request. I'm not sure how this will be handled operationally, and customer service may be slightly perturbed with me on this, so please have some patience...but I will look at your coins.

By the way...this will probably be a lot of work. Some may thinking I'm just going thru the motions, however, I want to know what the real deal is with the grading and this is the way for me to find out.

RYK · May 17, 2005 2:39PM

Good idea.

coinguy1 · May 17, 2005 2:40PM

David, what about utilizing some outside/independent help/source(s) to check it out?

solid · May 17, 2005 2:41PM

David,

You may be a busy guy soon (as if you weren't, already), but you're definately going the extra mile here!

Ken

itsnotjustme · May 17, 2005 2:49PM

Interesting idea and a generous offer. I assume that is up to 20 per person requesting. I have a 12 coin modern invoice that arrived 12 May.... I suspect I will miss the window. (I would want my coins graded when the graders know the boss will be making sure they were not too tight!)

TommyType · May 17, 2005 2:50PM

Good show!

But some clarification:

Is that 20 coins TOTAL, or 20 coins per person? (I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but it wasn't clear).

Do you have a cut off for when they were originally graded?....or is that what the 5-17 to 6-1 dates were supposed to mean? (You don't want to get coins graded 5-10 years ago).

Just clarifying. (I don't have anything to regrade myself).

clackamas · May 17, 2005 2:52PM

Does this mean if they are in final verification (today 5/17), they were actually graded maybe a few days or a week ago it does not count?

Thanks

Brian

pharmer · May 17, 2005 2:57PM

Thanks a lot for the generous offer and willingness to look deeper. I assume you mean any graded between those dates, and since I have a submission which should be done in that time frame, I will be taking advantage of this. This is quite a surprise, and I'm impressed.

Coin Finder · May 17, 2005 2:58PM

Russ you are up dude!

Tbig

Oldnewbie · May 17, 2005 3:00PM

Nip it, nip it in the bud.

numobri · May 17, 2005 3:04PM

COOL

I just wish I had some of that NEW stuff.

Thanks anyway DAVE.

Brian

Darkmane · May 17, 2005 3:10PM

too generous! i just dont hope you give in to a bunch of whiners =P

Darkmane · May 17, 2005 3:15PM

of course im just kidding. i honestly think its a great idea and an accurate grade will be determined/supported

sellsatan · May 17, 2005 3:18PM

This kind of action is the reason PCGS will remain the number one grading service in the hobby. Kudos.

Bochiman · May 17, 2005 3:26PM

Didn't take long for this to hit the page over across the street....

sheeesh! Some people need to get a life!

I guess things are so boring over there that some people need to be over here, basically hide, then run over there to post about things.

Ya know...I go there to read the board about 10 times a year (maybe that much) and can basically catch up on everything in that timeframe. I haven't registered over there. I haven't posted. But it is funny to see people that get banned here go over there and just pout and post all the bad things.
Also interesting to see people who play "Buttkisser" over here, go over there and trash on things here.

Oh well, David, you have once again become the talk of the town.

relayer · May 17, 2005 3:28PM

I've got two modern submissions from 4/13 that should post pretty soon.

I think it would be great to get your input on some coins, but it is always possible my pre-1973 proofs could be embarassing

CoinResource · May 17, 2005 3:42PM

THANK YOU PCGS for addressing this issue raised on the boards! -cm

oreville · May 17, 2005 4:20PM

David Hall has been getting better and better in quickly nipping small problems before they become bigger problems in the last five years.

We are all learning. Even David Hall has not stopped learning.

PCGS is stronger for that.

Deadhorse · May 17, 2005 4:37PM

So, a coin I got back 10 days ago that I really think was a swing and a miss by a solid 2 points on a DCam doesn't qualify?

It has to be regraded within this time frame? Then I also need to be one of the 20 lucky people?

Or is it that if I send it back and call then it will get a personal look? I can't imagine sending a note to each and every person who responds to this offer. This could be a tremendous amount of work.

Should I also send it back in the slab or crack it out?? Should I assume I will also be paying the fees again? Does it need to be sent at a certain level, say, economy or whatever? Will economy get to the grading room in time?

If somebody is clearer on the exact qualifications could you please clear this up for me?

TIA

Coinhusker1 · May 17, 2005 5:35PM

For this to be effective, I think a number of coins recently graded should be sent in with a number of coins graded, say 12-18 months ago to get a meaningful sample.

For example, if Russ sent in 8-10 of his recent "no-CAM" SMS coins and 8-10 CAM SMS coins graded a year or so ago, that would be a meaningful evaluation. (I use Russ as an example, because he is one of the few who could probably produce such a sample).

I am skeptical that a random sample of 20 coins going to Presidential review will prove much, as there will be no point of reference coins, and the grading skills of those who send them in may be all over the lot.

Atlantic · May 17, 2005 6:53PM

WOW,, What a great idea,, Talk about stepping up to the plate,,

AlaBill · May 17, 2005 7:41PM

Now, does anyone question the effect of this forum on the coin industry?

Kudos to David Hall for addressing this "head on".

AlaBill

Steve27 · May 17, 2005 8:59PM

Good start, but 5/17-6/1 doesn't cover most of the people who have complained. I would like to see any coin, with the newer type of reverse slab (shown on the bottom in the attachment), be available for review (just limit the number to 1 or 2 per person).

KurtHorn · May 17, 2005 10:03PM

This place is amazing. The guy makes an honest effort to address our concerns. Is going to double check within a specified time frame and everyone that responds wants to make their own rules. Take it for what it is. Thanks David!

Purple73 · May 17, 2005 10:16PM

Sounds like a first come first serve deal here.

"Up to 20 coins"

Thats one hell of a gesture.

I have never heard "A Big Cheese" ever doing anything like this. It's mostly the crack of a whip.

PURPLE!

whoopig · May 17, 2005 10:27PM

Does anybody think he is going to say they have tightened up? If he says yes and wants them to loosen the standards, won't you just submit more now so you can get them into higher grade holders? If he says they haven't,won't you cut submissions until they loosen up again? If he changes some grades, how many of you will resubmit under the presidential review submission? Looks like a ploy to get more money out of the collectors to me.

ttown · May 17, 2005 10:35PM

This is what I've been waiting for, not that I have any coins to review. PCGS should be an independent TPG service with no vested intersest in the price of a coin rather the market is hot or soft or protecting the POP #'s. David could have ban people and deleted posts on the board as they came in but he didn't and he's now ready to look and address this issue, good job.

Coinhusker1 · May 17, 2005 10:39PM

<< <i>This place is amazing. The guy makes an honest effort to address our concerns. Is going to double check within a specified time frame and everyone that responds wants to make their own rules. Take it for what it is. Thanks David! >>

No, the point Steve27 and I are trying to make is that without a point of reference, the free Presidential review offer will not directly address the concern over inconsistent grading.

I credit HRH with stepping up to address the issue. However, the result of the free review likely will be that 20 collectors with varying grading skills will submit 20 different date/series coins suggesting they are undergraded, and zero or one of the coins will change grade as a result, consistent with overall Presidential review results.

With "point of reference" coins, you should get one of two answers --- the coins graded a year or so ago were overgraded, or the recently graded coins were undergraded.

Longacre · May 17, 2005 10:47PM

I'm impressed with the activism of PCGS's leader. Good job.

Lakesammman · May 17, 2005 10:53PM

Coinguy:

You looking for employment??

TheRock · May 17, 2005 10:56PM

Great Job, DH. Nice to see that you are looking into the issue and trying to resolve it if there is a problem.

xbob · May 17, 2005 10:59PM

Add me to the list of those impressed with this kind of action coming from the top gun. Too many times in business there's a very distant relationship between upper management and end customer. Nice!

cladking · May 17, 2005 11:01PM

Great.

I almost hope HomerunHall does find there was a problem, but in any case it will great to have an answer.

bushmaster8 · May 17, 2005 11:10PM

Obviously, it's 20 coins per person. Not 20 coins period, on a first come basis. If it was the latter , the sampling would not be large enuff to have any statistical relevance.

mrpaseo · May 17, 2005 11:12PM

Mr. Hall,
I am impressed with your actions as the president to take time to interact and assist the end user. Very commendable and a very wise business decision.

Just my two cents,
Ray

cartwheel · May 17, 2005 11:24PM

Well, I've got eleven Walkers in under Economy service right now; I'm expecting all 64's and 65's. They should be done before the end of the month. If there are any surprises, I may just take him up on his offer.

Cartwheel

P.S. And thank you, HRH, for your generous offer!

PerryHall · May 17, 2005 11:31PM

<< <i>Coinguy:

You looking for employment??

>>

No. Just higher grades on his next submission!

JRocco · May 17, 2005 11:42PM

I, for one, think David Hall is stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing.

Deadhorse · May 18, 2005 12:00AM

While I am in agreement with the kudos and think it's both a magnanimous and wise business gesture that gives me a little better feeling about PCGS, I still don't know where the one killer that I got back 10 days ago fits in.

Am I just stuck with it? I've only disagreed twice, by disagree I mean just flabbergasted by a grade. Sure, I've had a difference or two with close calls, that stuff happens. I'm talking about 2-3 points on the high end and I've been damaged financially on both of these. I am not going by just my grading skills either, but with a concensus of several people with hundreds of years combined in this hobby/business. Not to mention, I can lay the same coin down next to mine, PCGS slab from a couple of years ago and my recent low grade coin just blows away the other that is 2 or 3 grades higher, depending on which of the two coins I really feel were wrongly graded.

So, I still don't understand the details of this generous offer and no one yet has explained them in a manner which I can understand. I stated such above and no one has yet been able to answer my questions. Is it only the first 20 people who call? If so, I imagine I am already out of the running. Again, how does this affect a coin that came out of the grading room 2 weeks ago? For that matter, one that came back a few months ago just as people were beginning to talk about tighter standards.

GoYankees · May 18, 2005 12:06AM

<< <i>Didn't take long for this to hit the page over across the street....

sheeesh! Some people need to get a life!
>>

PCGS vs. NGC

This is the numismatic version of the Yankees vs. Red Sox complete with rival fans on both sides!

RedneckHB · May 18, 2005 12:09AM

Nice gesture

but we are talking about reviewing coins that have yet to be graded. Just to play devils advocate lets say the graders get a little loose for the next two weeks.

I sent a coin in for designation review downgrade 2 months ago. It came back with the same grade. The coin would never cross at NGC as it is bent. Can I send this in for review?

LeeG · May 18, 2005 12:12AM

Thanks Mr. Hall for taking some action to address the concerns of many here! I don't submit much but just love the knowledge and sharing of information about all that's coin related shown here. Actions such as these are why PCGS stays on "The Cutting Edge"! I'm sure you'll answer the follow up questions posted here. I'll be interested in the results. Thanks Again

techeff · May 18, 2005 12:32AM

David, what about utilizing some outside/independent help/source(s) to check it out?

This is the ONLY way to truly determine whether PCGS has "tightened up" or not. Independence is very important in matters such as this!

ttown · May 18, 2005 12:39AM

I could see PCGS asking some of the more advanced dealers/collectors on this board to send in their coins for review. But if they open up checking all the coins graded in the last year everyone will send theirs back just to see if they get an upgrade and that's not too realistic IMO.

whoopig · May 18, 2005 12:41AM

My thoughts exactly!

Boom · May 18, 2005 12:41AM

The problem goes BACK and is not about coins that are in a given, present window of two weeks. I, for example, had 3 seperate submissions that all left here Mid-March and were back here Mid-April. One was a crossover, no problems there, but the other two sumissions were.

Those grades, I would sure appreciate Mr. Hall looking into. The coins were all sent in raw (cracked out 66s) . The troubling part is the grades came back 62, 65, 64 ,65, BB'd, 65, 66, 66. These were some of my best 66s, "shot 67s". The results speak for themselves.

I can do nothing with these and would very much appreciate being included in this Presidential Review. I had no idea that everyone else was experiencing similar problems. Something definitely is amiss somewhere with results such as this. I am wondering if perhaps the way I filled in the forms may have had something to do with the results.

Thank you. I applaud you for even thinking about taking on such a monumental task. We're talking about a LOT of submissions, Mr. Hall.

eagle7 · May 18, 2005 12:59AM

Thank you David!

mgoodm3 · May 18, 2005 1:00AM

Nice offer. Thanks for answering the concerns.

K6AZ · May 18, 2005 1:23AM

This offer from David pretty much confirms my suspicions that most of the complaints lately have been with modern (later 20th century) coins. I really haven't seen much difference in the way they grade 19th and early 20th century coins.

tmot99 · May 18, 2005 1:52AM

Very impressive offer HRH. I don't have any problems at the moment, but have been concerned with what others are saying. Thanks for stepping up to the plate.

MajorDuty · May 18, 2005 1:53AM

<< <i>Does anybody think he is going to say they have tightened up? If he says yes and wants them to loosen the standards, won't you just submit more now so you can get them into higher grade holders? If he says they haven't,won't you cut submissions until they loosen up again? If he changes some grades, how many of you will resubmit under the presidential review submission? Looks like a ploy to get more money out of the collectors to me. >>

This is the guy that started the thread across the street, right?

OK...Let's see if PCGS has tightened up.

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